Slow day on the forums, so I'm coming back here to recap... Let's see if how many of us are on the same page.
Subaru's financial fortunes have been hurtin' in recent years thanks to their partnership with Isuzu. Isuzu left them with idle lines at the Indiana plant. (Honda's business picked up once they ditched their alliance with Isuzu. Maybe it's a rite of passage, or something.)
Subaru's sales forecasts for NA have been way, way off. My only explanation is that some of the most erroneous estimates (in retrospect) were made before the economy tanked in 2001. That said, even the more recent ones have not come true.
Subaru's new product blitz has been both hit and miss.
WRX = Big hit Baja = Big miss New Legacy = Moderate/steady success Tribeca = Small miss... not nearly as tragic as the Baja, but not making goals in these early months.
Toyota's investment in Subaru may prove significant, or it might not. Too soon to tell.
And Subaru's brand image is as confused as Brad and Janet's gender ID.
I disagree about that last part - Subaru has that crystal clear. They still specialize in AWD wagons. It seems they always have, always will. At least should.
OK, in the early days it was 4WD wagons, but still, close enough.
There's an article in this week's Automotive News about the whole GM/Fuji to Toyota/Fuji thing, and one conspiracy is that Fuji purposely sabotaged the "synergy" with GM by sticking to its guns (AWD and boxer engines) so that it remained incompatible with Saab.
A little too much into their image, according to this theory.
"Subaru has that crystal clear. They still specialize in AWD wagons."
That's just the one part of the image that's still working. I think the marketing is trying to push other attributes and not getting the job done. They also have a boy racer following and at the same time they're pushing this premium notion.
if that is their brand image, why doesn't it show up in their advertising? Plus, I think they have been trying to move away from that in recent years. Which they shouldn't, IMO, unless it is towards something that will resonate with people. Croc Dundee was the only series of ads that ever made sense for Subaru, or pulled in buyers.
Tribeca came in too expensive "for a Subaru", that is its problem, I think. Which is what I said back in early Spring before they tossed it out there. The base model of Subaru's midsize crossover should DEFINITELY come in less than the base model of Honda's midsize crossover, and it doesn't.
Did they learn anything from trying to launch a bunch of $30K+ Outbacks a few years back and falling on their faces? No, apparently not. Yes, this is a different ball of wax than that was, but the essential theme still applies. Now if these low volume sales they have are high profit margin sales, then maybe the news isn't bad, but is Subaru really making more money at invoice on Tribeca than other automakers do?
And it's discouraging that Tribeca is becoming the new Pontiac Aztek-like punchline in the automotive press now whenever discussion turns to styling.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Ixnay on the emiumpray. I'm tired of that one, too.
The problem, as I see it, is that the image Subaru is trying bolster is not the one they've earned. They've earned a good rep for AWD wagons. They earned their street cred with the WRX. They haven't earned the premium rep they are trying to move into. Not as far as public perception is concerned. Pushing something before it's accepted causes the confusion I mentioned.
I'm not sure how much this matters, but none of these things has a solid connection. What's the tag line?
Subaru: The premium, boy racer, wagon company.
It's like selling a combination chainsaw, toothbrush, and dishwasher.
LOL! I laughed so hard at that one my neighbor in the next office popped her head in to see what could be so funny. I will have to keep it down...
:-)
Oh, and BTW, you are absolutely right. So what is the common thread that ties together the elements of Subarus that HAVE been accepted by the public?
I should add that I consider Subaru to be a first-tier Japanese carmaker in the sense that Toyota and Honda are as well, in that they make quality cars, get the details right, and you can count on them for more than a few years without major repairs and collapses. But that definition of "premium" is not the one the public understands, and Subaru should quit floating it out there, as it will just confuse a bunch of people that are ALREADY confused about what Subaru is and does.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Better watch it, Subaru: 280 hp, 6-speed, telescopic steering column (so it looks Japanese finally learned the ergonomics , traction control, steering wheel controls, Bose audio, AND (now be careful) AWD. All than for 28.5K sticker, add $2K and you get "touring" with leather.
Now, I don't know the details of the system and I'm sure the fanatics will jump immediately to say Subaru AWD w/boxer is superior. It's not the point - the point is: they cannot claim you're alone on the market anymore...
Found this on autoblog.com Sales for October 2005 were 16,774, an increase of 1% from the prior month. Year to date sales for 2005 are up 5% from 2004. The breakdown of October 2005 sales by model: Outback 5,284 Forester 4,208 Impreza 2,923 B9 Tribeca 2,093 Legacy 1,798 Baja 468
If Subaru really wants to be considered a prestige brand it'll have to drop the names of its models in favor of number/letter combinations. No, seriously. The brands already considered premium - Acura, Audi, BMW, Infiniti, Jaguar, Lexus, M-B, Saab and Volvo - all use this form of model designation. [Note: I'm not saying that Subaru should try to go "upscale," just that it'll have to rename its models should it go that way]
only 1,798 Legacys? That ain't too good! Guess they really are wagon (and psuedo SUV) based.
I had a fantastic dissertation written the other day, and it got wiped out in one of the frequent server farts. But, I'll try to summarize the key points.
basically, Subaru can't forget their core market is concerned with value. It's fine to go "premium" or "niche", but you need to have a solid foundation of moderately priced cars sold to generate market share (unless you are Porsche or Ferrari of course).
You can't take everything upmarket and put all your eggs in the high-$$ area if you don't have the name cred (think VW)
This came to mind when I started looking at legacys recently (currently on my short list du jour). For about 23Kish MSRP, 20.5K real world trans, yo can get a 2.5i SE sedan 5 speed (theoretically of course). Surprisingly loaded (safety stuff, roof, etc.) for less than a farily comparable Accord (ex), and that's without figuring in the value of the AWD.
I of course have to drive one, but this car on paper seems to be a termendous value, and could be a winner for a lot of people, but you never see or hear about it (the magazines always seem to leave it out of their comparo tests, etc.). Obviously no one is buying them based on the last post.
Not everyone is interested in 30K turbo hot rods (the GT). I think it is great to offer them, but they stil need to do a better job with the lower end stuff, or at least figure out a way to promote/market them better.
I plan to try one out this week, and actually think it might be perfect for me. Not too expensive, all the safety goodies, and a more manageable size (I like smaller, but need enough room to pack the family in on weekend trips). CamCordIma is a bit bigger than I really need, but a Civic or Mazda 3 is a bit too small.
Plus, my son wil lbe learning to drive in 1.5 years (sob...), and a Legacy is probably a great car to learn on. manageable size, easy to drive and see out of, all the safety gear (and good test results) just in case, plus it is built like a tank.
Now, why the heck can't they sell more than they do?
Yeah, it looks Legacy crawled back under the stone after a nice splash earlier. I wonder why. Perhaps "dust in the wind" has something to do with that. They seem to completely abandon Legacy in their ads in last few months, at least here. I'm sick of that Tribeca stuff - it was important to let people know it's here, but they shouldn't simply abandon the rest.
"I had a fantastic dissertation written the other day, and it got wiped out in one of the frequent server farts. But, I'll try to summarize the key points."
That's happened to me a few times. I think these forums have an integrated dissertation avoidance system.
"basically, Subaru can't forget their core market is concerned with value. It's fine to go "premium" or "niche", but you need to have a solid foundation of moderately priced cars sold to generate market share..."
I agree. That's why I start going like a broken record when it comes to the Impreza. They can't get away with just offering a car for the masses, they have to offer a good car for the masses. Once they've proven themselves in the small car market, they can move on to bigger and better things.
Volkswagen's recent struggles in the U.S. market are by no means attributable solely to its going upscale. The Golf, Jetta and especially Passat all became rather geriatric, in product-cycle terms, before getting major updates. To the extent that New Beetle sales have not met expectations (if indeed that's true), it's probably at least in part because of the vehicle's excessively cutsey-poo image. Chrysler got away with that sort of smarmy marketing a decade ago with the Neon, but apparently once was enough. The Touareg is overpriced, and to that extent represents a failed attempt at moving upmarket, but it would have struggled even if more reasonably priced simply because it hit the market after the SUV boom had peaked. As for the Phaeton ... well, the less said about the Phaeton, the better.
A sure threat to the Legacy GT, and Subaru really should have put the 6 speed manual in the Spec B to counter Mazda, but they didn't. So we'll see, but the car mags might point to Mazda as the premiere AWD sedan in the smallish mid-size segment.
I think it'll be a great car. Mazda's mistake is to put it in a sedan only, and a sedan that isn't exactly fresh, either. The smaller displacement of the engine is a concern (turbo lag?), but this is the first turbo with Direct Injection technology, so bravo to Mazda.
Hey, if Acura puts a turbo engine in the RD-X, imagine if the TSX got the same engine and you would have THREE asian turbo sedans of roughly the same size. How cool of a comparison test would that be?
Any how, I hope Mazda does well, they committed to the project more than Subaru did. To be fair, MazdaSpeed is their STI, and the Spec B was just not an STI.
prosa: VW focused its attention on making cars outside of its traditional segment. This distraction explains why we STILL don't see the Golf V in the USA. Passat and Jetta sales are down, and those models are new. You gotta wonder if VW's loss of focus hurt those launches.
VW is a business case study of how not to go upscale.
my PC just threw me completely out of IE! Must be a Subaru problem (or my wife got into it...)
Anyway, you can look at VW this way. If they hadn't spent so much time/effort/$$ screwing around with the high end (Tuarag, Phaeton, W8, etc.), they could have kept the mainstream stuff up to date and fresh.
Same with Sube. If they put all their eggs into a B9 basket, and let the legacy and Impreza die on the vine, they could take a big sales hit.
Anyone caught the new ad for Subaru's LL Bean editions? Saw it the other night (during sports programming, I believe). I caught only the tail end, but it looked like a deer stopped on a forest road, staring at a sign showing cars crossing. As it's standing there, the LL Bean OBW, Forester, and Outback sedan appear from the trees on one side, cross, and disappear back into the forest.
Lesson to learn - do not lose focus of your core products.
I don't think Subaru has. The Outback was new last year, and the Forester just got a refresh. Both on schedule. In fact some rumors have the next Forester being pushed up earlier than the expected MY08 debut.
Subaru has also pushed launches forward in the calendar year. They now launch vehicles as early as March. So if anything they have shortened their 5 year product cycle.
Golf gets by on 7, 8 or so, due to the funding all going towards the Phaeton that noone is buying.
This distraction explains why we STILL don't see the Golf V in the USA.
Actually juice - the Golf is VW's slowest auto seller - has been for years. It has nothing to do with old model - it has to do with hatchback/economy image. No need to bring it to the US right away if they could profitably continue to sell the old Golf and keep the Brazilian facility running.
Now I fully agree that the VW going upscale was a mistake. They should've concentrated on updating their current product for North America. According the this article:
VW is losing money while even new models' sales are down.
Your worst nightmare.
Subaru is in much better shape. Most model lines are doing well this year, up slightly. Tribeca did not pull the focus away from the Outback and Forester, which are doing well.
We had a Subaru back in 87 and are likely coming back into the fold. We left because of crummy dealer service, and lack of dealer locations.
After all this time, when I here Subaru I think AWD. I think Qualtiy.I think pratical. I think polished. I think smaller vehicles. I think priced with Toyota / Honda. I think 'smaller customer focussed complany', ie not BIG like Toyota/Nissan/Honda. I think limited.
I do not think wagon but rather small sedan / wagon / suv wannbe.
Why are Legacy's selling less? They are not wide enough nor long enough. Likely the Imprezza is a better deal OR if you want to spend the same or more you'll take the Forester or Outback. Remember, I think most Subaru owners are practical.
My dealer did mention they are trying to become a more upscale brand. Big mistake. Personally I liked the slightly more rugged look of prior year Outbacks with their earth tone colors and two tone paint and white lettered wheels; still they are selling so maybe they had the right idea.
Better they should have introduced a new brand (SubSupreme or something ala Acura or Luxus) starting with the Tribecca...who knows. I do know the Tribecca has a LOT of competition and there are a LOT of quality SUVs out there and they likely should have priced the sucker much lower.
I am not sure they are having an identity crisis more than they just are not accepting themselves for who they are and running with it.
I say, end the rebates, lower the prices, add rear airbags and skid controll where lacking and tout yourself as the snow/RAIN AWD safety leader and price it so it hurts to look elsewhere.
"Hey, if Acura puts a turbo engine in the RD-X, imagine if the TSX got the same engine and you would have THREE asian turbo sedans of roughly the same size."
Alright, you asked for it... 2.0L (probably turbo) with SH-AWD.
Not as off-topic as it seems, though. The other thing I've been a broken record about is the fact that Subaru will not be able to use AWD to differentiate itself in the market. At least, not for much longer.
Ford noticed when the Five Hundred AWD models started selling faster than they could make them. Mazda is adding AWD to the 6. How long before Ford does the same with the Fusion. Small SUV crossovers are popping up everywhere. Several of them are upscale, near-lux models.
Subaru had a good things going wile the AWD niche was a niche. But with everybody getting into the game, Subaru may get starved for buyers. At the least, it will prevent them from growing.
The thing is B-spec should have had 6-speed and extra 20 ponies for this price. Next year it should be regular GT with 6-speed. And we all know, it won't. Same with other things. I predict 07 Legacy to have a new "corporate" face, but same old stuff inside. Perhaps Nav will migrate to Wagon, but maybe not.
I agree with varmint on the customer base: when a large volume manufacturer moves to include your staple feature (AWD) in their mass product (say Fusion, next gen. Mazda6), you are immediately at risk of becoming irrelevant. Not next day of course, but over time.
I read somewhere that predictions are that in 20 years some 50% of vehicles will have some form of AWD. I can believe that - by that time nobody will remember "who was there first". It's like with crossovers: Outback was first, so what? Now everybody has a crossover, whatever they mean by that.
Saw that, and I think it's sweet. Is that really the predecessor to the next euro-Accord? Rumors said it was.
Acura really nailed the styling, too. The TL ended up looking a heck of a lot like the concept that preceeded it, so hopefully Acura can come close to that. It would carry a price higher than the Spec B, but not by much.
Mazda will only put AWD on the MazdaSpeed model, and even then, the MazdaSpeed 3 will be FWD. So they've only commited to building 5000 AWD sport sedans.
Acura is potentially a much bigger threat to high-end Subies like the Spec B.
We'll see about Ford. I don't think the Haldex is particularly cheap.
AWD will battle with a strive for peak fuel efficiency. It's hard to get both. I believe Honda showed another concept with an in-wheel electric motor on the rear wheels to get AWD power down through-the-road.
The Lexus RX400H and Highlander Hybrids are not true AWD models - they have no axle connecting to the engine. The rear wheels are powered by the batteries alone.
Should be interesting to see if Subaru sticks to its symmetrical designs or goes with something like the in-wheel electric motors.
It was strange that the '05 sedan scored only "marginal" on the IIHS test last year, but small revisions to the '06 made it a Best Pick.
I say last year's score was strange because in Australia their similar tests yielded results that were the opposite - the highest score ever obtained at the time.
The Outback had scored well, probably due to its higher stance.
I wonder if it'll now do poorly in tests in Australia? :P
The TL ended up looking a heck of a lot like the concept that preceeded it, so hopefully Acura can come close to that.
IIRC, whenever Honda shows a "prototype" or "concept", it's usually 90-95% what you'll see. I think the Sports4 is the next JDM/Euro Accord - Acura TSX.
AWD is not cheap and fuel consumption is a problem, but neither were stability control systems or ABS. It took less than 20 years to get ABS virtually everywhere but lowest-end models, stability control is on its way, too. I think next are fuel-saving CVTs, hybrids, and AWD.
I would not be surprised if next-generation Mazda6 had AWD available on lower-than-performance trims. Look around: Five years ago AWD was just on Subaru, Audi and very low volume cars from others. Today it made it to every luxury manufacturer. Still not the main volume, but not marginal either (think Lexus GS and IS, Acura RS). In three-five years it will probably be an "entry-level luxury" staple, or at least a seriously considered option. In 10-15 years or less perhaps Camcord will have it available for say $500 or even standard.
I think that all "upscale/premium" crap talk may be exactly for that reason - they know that it takes one or two giants to commit to AWD, even inferior one and they are becoming Suzuki (I mean their American division, Suzuki is not so small outside US).
Indeed, most of the time it's auto-only and only certain engine combos, but in a matter of time (maybe 5 years, maybe 10) everyone will have AWD as an option.
As a fan of AWD, I see no problem with that per se, but Subaru will need something to remain unique.
VW is losing money while even new models' sales are down.
I have an idea why sales might be down, at least with respect to the Jetta. Back in early September I made a couple of visits to a local VW dealer while buying a 2001 Jetta for my stepdaughter. Having quite some time to kill as they dealt with paperwork, I wandered around the lot (one of the biggest VW dealers in the northeast U.S.) checking out the new Jettas. Every single one of the 20 or so I looked at had an expensive premium package (leather seats, moonroofs, 6-CD changers, etc.) and was stickered north of $25K. Base models were nowhere to be seen. The situation among Passats wasn't quite as extreme; there were about 12 to 15 on the lot, and two of them were the more reasonably priced Value Edition models. Yes, you probably could get a base model Jetta if you really wanted one, but who knows how long it would take. Contrast that with the Subraru dealer where I got my Forester this week. While I didn't check the inventory as carefully, they had several base Foresters and Outbacks, without the Premium Package.
I agree that's why, but that's just a symptom of VW believing their own "premium" hype a bit too much.
When someone walks in to a showroom with $25 grand or more, they want a Passat, not a Jetta.
Subaru tends to stock the bread-and-butter models pretty wisely. The entry level models come well equipped, but dealers make sure they keep them in stock, and not just 1 or 2.
Look right now and Fitzmall.com has ten '06 Forester X models, and I'm only counting the 5 speeds!
Subaru tends to stock the bread-and-butter models pretty wisely. The entry level models come well equipped, but dealers make sure they keep them in stock, and not just 1 or 2.
The dealership where I bought my Forester also sells Chryslers and Jeeps. While waiting around for my trade-in to be evaluated, I checked out their lineup of about 15 Chrysler 300's along the side of the building. There was one V-6 Touring model with a sticker price around $30K. All the others were V-8 C models stickered well into the 30's, with two of them being AWD and carrying prices just short of $40K. Not one of the low-20's base models was in sight.
Sales plunged mostly for the Big 3 because all the summer sales events did was pull purchases forward. Now those dealers are ghost towns, because everyone that wanted one already got one.
When a model is hot, like the 300 is, they can get greedy and start to do that, i.e. high-end models only. They tend to do that when a car is new and they feel optimistic about them. But this can backfire, like it did for the Jetta.
Any how, for 2006, one big risk Subaru took is they eliminated the "base" GT models, i.e. you can only get Limiteds now. They offer Outback H6 models with cloth, so now if you want an engine upgrade without leather it has to be the H6.
So they shuffled the models around, let's see if it works. I predict it won't. The turbos were more popular than the H6, so will turn out to have been a mistake. My forecast for combined Legacy/Outback sales for MY2006 will be down slightly.
Subaru seems determined to fail by only offering this popular model with leather and a moonroof.
It's quite frustrating, actually, how they package things.
Bye-bye GT wagon with a manual transmission, too. That slaps the core buyer right in the face (AWD wagons, remember). If you want a GT wagon, you will have to settle for automatic AND leather AND a moonroof and pay through the nose for it. Bad move.
Well I was crying and screaming about it since I heard it first time, which was three months ago. I even wrote an email to them. They responded the were sorry and "by no means" it meant they abandoned manual. They "informed" me about Outback XT and "invited" me to test it "repeatedly".
Perhaps if they get couple more of those kind of hate mail, they will move boyond being sorry...
Those sales figures aren't bad considering how the rest of the market behaved. They're up 5% for the year, which is probably the more telling figure. That's not even close to their projections, and it's low considering that they added a mid-size X-over, but if costs have been kept under control it's still a gain.
is how come they don't offer this new SE package on the Outback, which is basically the same car as the Legacy. My dealer never stocks Legacys, it is Outback City over there. And on the Outback you can't get a moonroof unless you buy some $30K model with 100 things I don't want. But on a Legacy, it is a $500 option (and they throw in the power seat which is already standard on the Outback). This is worse than Toyota!
Subaru's packaging, advertising, and dealer network are probably the three biggest obstacles to its expansion in the U.S., despite what some (including me) might say about the vehicles themselves (fuel economy, price, etc).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
They did this back in 2003 also. The SE package is such a no-brainer that I think they don't really produce "base" (2.5i) models any more, unless you special order them.
So, oddly, a moonroof is now essentially standard on the Legacy. I think that makes the wagon a bargain, with its giant roof (and it's still cloth, thankfully).
Gimme a GT/SE, though, turbo engine with cloth and a moonroof. Perfect combo. Not available, though.
Of course, the Edmunds groupies usually don't represent the mainstream buyer (well, maybe more so for Subaru..). They must have figured (from experience) that the sales of the MT wagon were so small, it wasn't worth it.
The leather thing bugs me more. Some packaging is silly, especially when they assume that everyone that wants one thing (moonroof, HO engine, ehatever) automatically also wants leather. That, and the flip side of no MT: You can get it, but if you want a roof, then you must want an At also. Grrr...
The 2.5i SE really does look like it hits the sweet spot, if yo ucan live without the turbo (and the NA engine seems to have a lot of power these days). Only thing missing that I can see is stereo controls on the steering wheel. I realllllllly want those on my next car, but it isn't a total deal breaker.
I'd probably swap out the stereo, so that wouldn't be a concern for me. 1 CD is not enough any more, I have a 6CD and I'm ready for an aux input or maybe even an in-dash NAV/MP3 player.
The opening is double-DIN so it's nearly universal for fitment.
I never thought much about those controls until I got spoiled by my wife's TL. Driving my CR-V after a weekend in the TL and I'd poke my thumb at an empty space in between the spokes.
My MDX has those controls, but freakin' Acura changed the functions around!
Ummm... yeah... Subaru thread... sorry.
Anyway, as much as I hate to admit to being this lazy, those extra radio controls really are handy. I'm seeing them added to more and more "down market" cars. So, if Subaru is going to move into ****** territory, this stuff should be start becoming a part of the standard content.
Comments
Subaru's financial fortunes have been hurtin' in recent years thanks to their partnership with Isuzu. Isuzu left them with idle lines at the Indiana plant. (Honda's business picked up once they ditched their alliance with Isuzu. Maybe it's a rite of passage, or something.)
Subaru's sales forecasts for NA have been way, way off. My only explanation is that some of the most erroneous estimates (in retrospect) were made before the economy tanked in 2001. That said, even the more recent ones have not come true.
Subaru's new product blitz has been both hit and miss.
WRX = Big hit
Baja = Big miss
New Legacy = Moderate/steady success
Tribeca = Small miss... not nearly as tragic as the Baja, but not making goals in these early months.
Toyota's investment in Subaru may prove significant, or it might not. Too soon to tell.
And Subaru's brand image is as confused as Brad and Janet's gender ID.
OK, in the early days it was 4WD wagons, but still, close enough.
There's an article in this week's Automotive News about the whole GM/Fuji to Toyota/Fuji thing, and one conspiracy is that Fuji purposely sabotaged the "synergy" with GM by sticking to its guns (AWD and boxer engines) so that it remained incompatible with Saab.
A little too much into their image, according to this theory.
-juice
That's just the one part of the image that's still working. I think the marketing is trying to push other attributes and not getting the job done. They also have a boy racer following and at the same time they're pushing this premium notion.
Tribeca came in too expensive "for a Subaru", that is its problem, I think. Which is what I said back in early Spring before they tossed it out there. The base model of Subaru's midsize crossover should DEFINITELY come in less than the base model of Honda's midsize crossover, and it doesn't.
Did they learn anything from trying to launch a bunch of $30K+ Outbacks a few years back and falling on their faces? No, apparently not. Yes, this is a different ball of wax than that was, but the essential theme still applies. Now if these low volume sales they have are high profit margin sales, then maybe the news isn't bad, but is Subaru really making more money at invoice on Tribeca than other automakers do?
And it's discouraging that Tribeca is becoming the new Pontiac Aztek-like punchline in the automotive press now whenever discussion turns to styling.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I see these as two directions towards which they're trying to push the brand. Not the brand's true identity.
They tried to put a tuxedo on Crocodile Dundee. It didn't work that well, but it didn't fail miserably, either.
A sporting halo never hurts, and they didn't advertise much in this direction. I don't see that as a distraction.
Get back-to-basics, sure, but leave the STI models to draw in the enthusiasts, who help spread the word.
-juice
The problem, as I see it, is that the image Subaru is trying bolster is not the one they've earned. They've earned a good rep for AWD wagons. They earned their street cred with the WRX. They haven't earned the premium rep they are trying to move into. Not as far as public perception is concerned. Pushing something before it's accepted causes the confusion I mentioned.
I'm not sure how much this matters, but none of these things has a solid connection. What's the tag line?
Subaru: The premium, boy racer, wagon company.
It's like selling a combination chainsaw, toothbrush, and dishwasher.
:-)
Oh, and BTW, you are absolutely right. So what is the common thread that ties together the elements of Subarus that HAVE been accepted by the public?
I should add that I consider Subaru to be a first-tier Japanese carmaker in the sense that Toyota and Honda are as well, in that they make quality cars, get the details right, and you can count on them for more than a few years without major repairs and collapses. But that definition of "premium" is not the one the public understands, and Subaru should quit floating it out there, as it will just confuse a bunch of people that are ALREADY confused about what Subaru is and does.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
280 hp, 6-speed, telescopic steering column (so it looks Japanese finally learned the ergonomics
Now, I don't know the details of the system and I'm sure the fanatics will jump immediately to say Subaru AWD w/boxer is superior. It's not the point - the point is: they cannot claim you're alone on the market anymore...
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Sales for October 2005 were 16,774, an increase of 1% from the prior month. Year to date sales for 2005 are up 5% from 2004.
The breakdown of October 2005 sales by model:
Outback 5,284
Forester 4,208
Impreza 2,923
B9 Tribeca 2,093
Legacy 1,798
Baja 468
[Note: I'm not saying that Subaru should try to go "upscale," just that it'll have to rename its models should it go that way]
I had a fantastic dissertation written the other day, and it got wiped out in one of the frequent server farts. But, I'll try to summarize the key points.
basically, Subaru can't forget their core market is concerned with value. It's fine to go "premium" or "niche", but you need to have a solid foundation of moderately priced cars sold to generate market share (unless you are Porsche or Ferrari of course).
You can't take everything upmarket and put all your eggs in the high-$$ area if you don't have the name cred (think VW)
This came to mind when I started looking at legacys recently (currently on my short list du jour). For about 23Kish MSRP, 20.5K real world trans, yo can get a 2.5i SE sedan 5 speed (theoretically of course). Surprisingly loaded (safety stuff, roof, etc.) for less than a farily comparable Accord (ex), and that's without figuring in the value of the AWD.
I of course have to drive one, but this car on paper seems to be a termendous value, and could be a winner for a lot of people, but you never see or hear about it (the magazines always seem to leave it out of their comparo tests, etc.). Obviously no one is buying them based on the last post.
Not everyone is interested in 30K turbo hot rods (the GT). I think it is great to offer them, but they stil need to do a better job with the lower end stuff, or at least figure out a way to promote/market them better.
I plan to try one out this week, and actually think it might be perfect for me. Not too expensive, all the safety goodies, and a more manageable size (I like smaller, but need enough room to pack the family in on weekend trips). CamCordIma is a bit bigger than I really need, but a Civic or Mazda 3 is a bit too small.
Plus, my son wil lbe learning to drive in 1.5 years (sob...), and a Legacy is probably a great car to learn on. manageable size, easy to drive and see out of, all the safety gear (and good test results) just in case, plus it is built like a tank.
Now, why the heck can't they sell more than they do?
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
That's happened to me a few times. I think these forums have an integrated dissertation avoidance system.
"basically, Subaru can't forget their core market is concerned with value. It's fine to go "premium" or "niche", but you need to have a solid foundation of moderately priced cars sold to generate market share..."
I agree. That's why I start going like a broken record when it comes to the Impreza. They can't get away with just offering a car for the masses, they have to offer a good car for the masses. Once they've proven themselves in the small car market, they can move on to bigger and better things.
I think it'll be a great car. Mazda's mistake is to put it in a sedan only, and a sedan that isn't exactly fresh, either. The smaller displacement of the engine is a concern (turbo lag?), but this is the first turbo with Direct Injection technology, so bravo to Mazda.
Hey, if Acura puts a turbo engine in the RD-X, imagine if the TSX got the same engine and you would have THREE asian turbo sedans of roughly the same size. How cool of a comparison test would that be?
Any how, I hope Mazda does well, they committed to the project more than Subaru did. To be fair, MazdaSpeed is their STI, and the Spec B was just not an STI.
prosa: VW focused its attention on making cars outside of its traditional segment. This distraction explains why we STILL don't see the Golf V in the USA. Passat and Jetta sales are down, and those models are new. You gotta wonder if VW's loss of focus hurt those launches.
VW is a business case study of how not to go upscale.
-juice
Anyway, you can look at VW this way. If they hadn't spent so much time/effort/$$ screwing around with the high end (Tuarag, Phaeton, W8, etc.), they could have kept the mainstream stuff up to date and fresh.
Same with Sube. If they put all their eggs into a B9 basket, and let the legacy and Impreza die on the vine, they could take a big sales hit.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Lesson to learn - do not lose focus of your core products.
I don't think Subaru has. The Outback was new last year, and the Forester just got a refresh. Both on schedule. In fact some rumors have the next Forester being pushed up earlier than the expected MY08 debut.
Subaru has also pushed launches forward in the calendar year. They now launch vehicles as early as March. So if anything they have shortened their 5 year product cycle.
Golf gets by on 7, 8 or so, due to the funding all going towards the Phaeton that noone is buying.
-juice
Actually juice - the Golf is VW's slowest auto seller - has been for years. It has nothing to do with old model - it has to do with hatchback/economy image. No need to bring it to the US right away if they could profitably continue to sell the old Golf and keep the Brazilian facility running.
Now I fully agree that the VW going upscale was a mistake. They should've concentrated on updating their current product for North America. According the this article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB113094485004386371.html
VW is finally going to cater to the US market.
VW is losing money while even new models' sales are down.
Your worst nightmare.
Subaru is in much better shape. Most model lines are doing well this year, up slightly. Tribeca did not pull the focus away from the Outback and Forester, which are doing well.
-juice
After all this time, when I here Subaru I think AWD. I think Qualtiy.I think pratical. I think polished. I think smaller vehicles. I think priced with Toyota / Honda. I think 'smaller customer focussed complany', ie not BIG like Toyota/Nissan/Honda. I think limited.
I do not think wagon but rather small sedan / wagon / suv wannbe.
Why are Legacy's selling less? They are not wide enough nor long enough. Likely the Imprezza is a better deal OR if you want to spend the same or more you'll take the Forester or Outback. Remember, I think most Subaru owners are practical.
My dealer did mention they are trying to become a more upscale brand. Big mistake. Personally I liked the slightly more rugged look of prior year Outbacks with their earth tone colors and two tone paint and white lettered wheels; still they are selling so maybe they had the right idea.
Better they should have introduced a new brand (SubSupreme or something ala Acura or Luxus) starting with the Tribecca...who knows. I do know the Tribecca has a LOT of competition and there are a LOT of quality SUVs out there and they likely should have priced the sucker much lower.
I am not sure they are having an identity crisis more than they just are not accepting themselves for who they are and running with it.
I say, end the rebates, lower the prices, add rear airbags and skid controll where lacking and tout yourself as the snow/RAIN AWD safety leader and price it so it hurts to look elsewhere.
Whats wrong with being who you are?
Alright, you asked for it... 2.0L (probably turbo) with SH-AWD.
Sports4 Concept
Not as off-topic as it seems, though. The other thing I've been a broken record about is the fact that Subaru will not be able to use AWD to differentiate itself in the market. At least, not for much longer.
Ford noticed when the Five Hundred AWD models started selling faster than they could make them. Mazda is adding AWD to the 6. How long before Ford does the same with the Fusion. Small SUV crossovers are popping up everywhere. Several of them are upscale, near-lux models.
Subaru had a good things going wile the AWD niche was a niche. But with everybody getting into the game, Subaru may get starved for buyers. At the least, it will prevent them from growing.
I agree with varmint on the customer base: when a large volume manufacturer moves to include your staple feature (AWD) in their mass product (say Fusion, next gen. Mazda6), you are immediately at risk of becoming irrelevant. Not next day of course, but over time.
I read somewhere that predictions are that in 20 years some 50% of vehicles will have some form of AWD. I can believe that - by that time nobody will remember "who was there first". It's like with crossovers: Outback was first, so what? Now everybody has a crossover, whatever they mean by that.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Acura really nailed the styling, too. The TL ended up looking a heck of a lot like the concept that preceeded it, so hopefully Acura can come close to that. It would carry a price higher than the Spec B, but not by much.
Mazda will only put AWD on the MazdaSpeed model, and even then, the MazdaSpeed 3 will be FWD. So they've only commited to building 5000 AWD sport sedans.
Acura is potentially a much bigger threat to high-end Subies like the Spec B.
We'll see about Ford. I don't think the Haldex is particularly cheap.
AWD will battle with a strive for peak fuel efficiency. It's hard to get both. I believe Honda showed another concept with an in-wheel electric motor on the rear wheels to get AWD power down through-the-road.
The Lexus RX400H and Highlander Hybrids are not true AWD models - they have no axle connecting to the engine. The rear wheels are powered by the batteries alone.
Should be interesting to see if Subaru sticks to its symmetrical designs or goes with something like the in-wheel electric motors.
-juice
It was strange that the '05 sedan scored only "marginal" on the IIHS test last year, but small revisions to the '06 made it a Best Pick.
I say last year's score was strange because in Australia their similar tests yielded results that were the opposite - the highest score ever obtained at the time.
The Outback had scored well, probably due to its higher stance.
I wonder if it'll now do poorly in tests in Australia? :P
-juice
IIRC, whenever Honda shows a "prototype" or "concept", it's usually 90-95% what you'll see. I think the Sports4 is the next JDM/Euro Accord - Acura TSX.
I wonder how Acura will keep prices down, but the more competition, the better the breed.
-juice
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I would not be surprised if next-generation Mazda6 had AWD available on lower-than-performance trims. Look around: Five years ago AWD was just on Subaru, Audi and very low volume cars from others. Today it made it to every luxury manufacturer. Still not the main volume, but not marginal either (think Lexus GS and IS, Acura RS). In three-five years it will probably be an "entry-level luxury" staple, or at least a seriously considered option. In 10-15 years or less perhaps Camcord will have it available for say $500 or even standard.
I think that all "upscale/premium" crap talk may be exactly for that reason - they know that it takes one or two giants to commit to AWD, even inferior one and they are becoming Suzuki (I mean their American division, Suzuki is not so small outside US).
2018 430i Gran Coupe
As a fan of AWD, I see no problem with that per se, but Subaru will need something to remain unique.
-juice
I have an idea why sales might be down, at least with respect to the Jetta. Back in early September I made a couple of visits to a local VW dealer while buying a 2001 Jetta for my stepdaughter. Having quite some time to kill as they dealt with paperwork, I wandered around the lot (one of the biggest VW dealers in the northeast U.S.) checking out the new Jettas. Every single one of the 20 or so I looked at had an expensive premium package (leather seats, moonroofs, 6-CD changers, etc.) and was stickered north of $25K. Base models were nowhere to be seen. The situation among Passats wasn't quite as extreme; there were about 12 to 15 on the lot, and two of them were the more reasonably priced Value Edition models. Yes, you probably could get a base model Jetta if you really wanted one, but who knows how long it would take.
Contrast that with the Subraru dealer where I got my Forester this week. While I didn't check the inventory as carefully, they had several base Foresters and Outbacks, without the Premium Package.
When someone walks in to a showroom with $25 grand or more, they want a Passat, not a Jetta.
Subaru tends to stock the bread-and-butter models pretty wisely. The entry level models come well equipped, but dealers make sure they keep them in stock, and not just 1 or 2.
Look right now and Fitzmall.com has ten '06 Forester X models, and I'm only counting the 5 speeds!
-juice
The dealership where I bought my Forester also sells Chryslers and Jeeps. While waiting around for my trade-in to be evaluated, I checked out their lineup of about 15 Chrysler 300's along the side of the building. There was one V-6 Touring model with a sticker price around $30K. All the others were V-8 C models stickered well into the 30's, with two of them being AWD and carrying prices just short of $40K. Not one of the low-20's base models was in sight.
http://vocuspr.vocus.com/VocusPR30/Temp/Sites/1571/bee3a7e4037e46a0a0e487702d244431/Subaru- _October_%202005_Sales%20final_webversion.doc
When a model is hot, like the 300 is, they can get greedy and start to do that, i.e. high-end models only. They tend to do that when a car is new and they feel optimistic about them. But this can backfire, like it did for the Jetta.
Any how, for 2006, one big risk Subaru took is they eliminated the "base" GT models, i.e. you can only get Limiteds now. They offer Outback H6 models with cloth, so now if you want an engine upgrade without leather it has to be the H6.
So they shuffled the models around, let's see if it works. I predict it won't. The turbos were more popular than the H6, so will turn out to have been a mistake. My forecast for combined Legacy/Outback sales for MY2006 will be down slightly.
-juice
On the Impreza the sedans outsell the wagons by a small margin, but with the Legacy/Outback it's wagons 3 to 1.
This is despite the fact that the new models seem to have traded off a few wagons for a few more sedans. I bet the Legacy GT is the cause for this.
-juice
It's quite frustrating, actually, how they package things.
Bye-bye GT wagon with a manual transmission, too. That slaps the core buyer right in the face (AWD wagons, remember). If you want a GT wagon, you will have to settle for automatic AND leather AND a moonroof and pay through the nose for it. Bad move.
-juice
Perhaps if they get couple more of those kind of hate mail, they will move boyond being sorry...
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Subaru's packaging, advertising, and dealer network are probably the three biggest obstacles to its expansion in the U.S., despite what some (including me) might say about the vehicles themselves (fuel economy, price, etc).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
So, oddly, a moonroof is now essentially standard on the Legacy. I think that makes the wagon a bargain, with its giant roof (and it's still cloth, thankfully).
Gimme a GT/SE, though, turbo engine with cloth and a moonroof. Perfect combo. Not available, though.
-juice
The leather thing bugs me more. Some packaging is silly, especially when they assume that everyone that wants one thing (moonroof, HO engine, ehatever) automatically also wants leather. That, and the flip side of no MT: You can get it, but if you want a roof, then you must want an At also. Grrr...
The 2.5i SE really does look like it hits the sweet spot, if yo ucan live without the turbo (and the NA engine seems to have a lot of power these days). Only thing missing that I can see is stereo controls on the steering wheel. I realllllllly want those on my next car, but it isn't a total deal breaker.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
The opening is double-DIN so it's nearly universal for fitment.
-juice
My MDX has those controls, but freakin' Acura changed the functions around!
Ummm... yeah... Subaru thread... sorry.
Anyway, as much as I hate to admit to being this lazy, those extra radio controls really are handy. I'm seeing them added to more and more "down market" cars. So, if Subaru is going to move into ****** territory, this stuff should be start becoming a part of the standard content.