Subaru's fortunes sinking - can they turn it around?

nippononly

except there is no reason to expect that even were Toyota to renew the Matrix for another model cycle, that they would confer with GM in developing it. The last joint model, the Prizm, was all Corolla that was rebadged for GM, which had no participation in developing it except for surface styling for the GM car only.

Knowing GM, they will continue to produce the Vibe as it exists today for another four or five years, with no thought of renewing it in 18 months when Toyota changes (or kills) the Matrix.

robr2

You too - you're ruining a perfectly good rumor and conspiracy theory.

varmint

Let's take our half-wit schemes and start our own thread.

robr2

ROTLOL!!

That'll show 'em.

rsholland

You're no fun. Way to ruin a perfectly good conspiracy theory.

LOL!

Bob

ateixeira

There are aftermarket options that are also integrated. At least if you have a standard DIN opening in your car. Base Legacy and Outback (not SE and LTD), plus all Foresters and Imprezas, can accomodate this unit:



That's not cheap, but I found one for $1600 earlier without looking too hard, though it was double-DIN (still a pretty standard size that fits in most dashes and all the Subaru models I mentioned).

Nice thing about these is you can add things on, like a rearview camera is a $100-200 option. You might need adaptors if you have steering wheel audio controls but again that's available for another $100 or so.

The aftermarket has kept up with OE in terms of NAV, and fitment is much better than OE NAV availability.

-juice

ateixeira

This doesn't happen often but I'll agree with varmint here and say the Matrix is the most likely candidate.

Right now the Matrix XR AWD offers just 123hp and hasn't really put a dent in the Sport Compact segment. The XRS hasn't really either, that engine is too peaky and makes no torque. They don't even offer AWD with it.

Subaru can use the Impreza chassis, maybe when they are done supplying Saab with the 9-2x, and give Toyota a 173hp AWD base model, a whopping 50 horses more than it has now.

Better yet, the XRS could be based on the WRX, with 230hp, and about twice the torque of the current XRS model.

The B5-TPH hints that the next Impreza might be a 3 door, so there's room for plenty of differentiation if Subaru does go in that direction.

Now, getting back on track with my usual disagreeing with varmint , I think they'll stick with boxer engines. Matrix is low enough in sales volume that Subaru could probably build it at the Gunma plant.

However, this does imply that the partnership will expand, because the original press releases implied Toyota would build a car at SIA. Well, guess what? No subcompacts are made there now. So we may see Toyota build a 2nd model there.

rsholland

Well, reading between the lines here, I find it interesting that Toyota is doing this in the first place. What it says to me is that Toyota has a lot of confidence in Subaru. I see it very much as a vote of confidence in Subaru, and I think that's great.

I see this example as more of a case of Subaru helping Toyota, rather than Toyota helping Subaru. I think it bodes well for this relationship.

Bob

ateixeira

Definitely, a very solid vote at that.

I would not mind letting Toyota's engineers work some magic on the H6. Power is OK but torque still lags behind the competition. Look at the kind of power they got out of the V6 in the Avalon, and soon the RAV4.

Not only that, but fuel mileage is way up also, not just EPA but also in real-world tests. The new Avalon has been both incredibly quick and very efficient, I'm impressed.

Subaru has the turbos down pat, but let Toyota work their magic on their H6, see how far they can go with it.

-juice

robr2

What it says to me is that Toyota has a lot of confidence in Subaru. I see it very much as a vote of confidence in Subaru, and I think that's great.

IMHO, it's capacity issue as well. Varmint's article link:

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific_business/view/177704/1/.html

notes that Toyota is using engineering capacity at Fuji to cover for the personnel shortages it is suffering.

Toyota has to have confidence in their capability - that's true. But they're outsourcing because they need to.

rsholland

Good point.

Bob

varmint

Each of these links talks about using a Subaru design studio. It says nothing about using Subaru production facilities.

ateixeira

Earlier there was mention of actual production capacity, I don't recall if they mentioned SIA specifically but I'd be willing to bet that's what they meant.

Besides, we ALWAYS get ahead of ourselves, else we'd have nothing to talk about!

-juice

jeffmc

I think SIA will be used to manufacture a hybrid model(s), probably Prius, and...

I'm gonna go out on a real limb here and predict...

***rubbing my temples and staring off into the distance in a trance-like state with a disturbing look on my face*** (Yah, yah, I know - my face is always disturbing!)

... Subaru will redesign the Celica, which will not have a boxer engine (specifically, it will have a Toyota V6 or 4-cyl hybrid) but will have an AWD option, and will be manufactured by Toyota only.

nippononly

a low-slung update on the Impreza 2.5RS coupe of a few years back, AWD standard, holding the weight to maybe 2800 pounds max, call it the next Celica, make the GT-S with the turbo from the WRX. Sweet.

I am in sync with those that think Toyota will employ part of SIA to increase its hybrid production. It wants more capacity for that in North America, and Subaru wants a hybrid system and will likely borrow heavily from HSD now that Toy and Sub are sharing. They could build hybrid Subarus AND Toyotas at SIA.

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robr2

Toyota killed the Celica because it didn't sell. It may redesign it and sell it as a Scion though - as a new TC.

ateixeira

Yeah, some say tC actually meant Toyota Celica.

-juice

nippononly

to see Subaru turn out a proper sport coupe. Wasn't there a neat little concept along those lines a ways back?

ateixeira

B11S was the coupe, B9SC was the hybrid roadster.

What if they did a joint venture to build the B9SC, and then Toyota could get a version to replace the MR2? Maybe sell it under the Scion name, Scion hR? For hybrid Roadster.

-juice

nippononly

I think you're onto something there. Really. Couldn't they build the B11S also on a common platform?

ateixeira

Guess so. B11 had a longer wheelbase than any current Subaru, and was inteded as a flagship. So think Supra if you wanted a Toyota clone that could share a platform.

-juice

jeffmc

I thought the Celica was still alive in Europe and Asia, no?

While I like thinking about the B9 Scramber being produced, I don't think Toyota's going to pay Subaru to pen something they've already designed. This is supposed to be a redesign of an existing model - mutating an MR2 to a B9SC seems to be a bit of a design stretch - they look nothing alike.

dstew1

Both have 'em on the drawing board. Check it out...

Subaru B9sc

Toyota CS&S

jeffmc

I had forgotten about the CS&S - it reminds me of the Penelope Pitstop car from those Hannah-Barbara cartoons. Just a little pink paint and voila!

B9SC was much more attractive, not as much of a design exercise as the CS&S, but something they could actually produce and sell. We don't see FHI developing any far-out technologies like holographic interface with their concepts... probably because of budget.

ateixeira

Thanks for the links.

Both are concepts, keep in mind any production model would likely vary wildly from these. I doubt Subaru would use the yellow windshield, for instance.

Also, the B9SC had their earlier hybrid prototype powertrain. The B5 TPH essentially replaces that, at least in terms of their direction.

So now the question is, do they develop the TPH (turbo parallel hybrid) or go with something closer to the current HSD technology?

I think they'll blend both. Turbo hybrid is almost an oxymoron, do you want a fuel miser that requires expensive premium fuel? Noone would buy them.

So I think they'll drop the "turbo" part but use the Lithium Ion batteries that FHI has experience with.

So yes, the results would be all-new, essentially. HSD + NEC Lamilion = new generation hybrid roadster?

-juice

nippononly

In the conclusion of the discussion of the Tribeca in its SUV of the Year competition, MT says

"Is it an all-wheel-drive minivan? A tall wagon with third row seating? A sport/utility vehicle? There's a curious lack of focus about the Tribeca: you can't help but wonder if Subaru gave in to pressure to build something it could call a midsize sport/utility, when for years it's been known for building terrific SUV alternatives. In doing so, Subaru has created a vehicle that lacks the ingredients that made Subarus so appealing in the first place."

which speaks to the notion Subaru has of trying to change or perhaps define its image with new models right now. People KNOW the old image, and don't understand what the new one is supposed to be.

They also spend a few lines poking fun at the looks, as has everyone in the industry and many outside it, and describe the H-6 as "struggling" with the 4281 pounds of Tribeca it has to propel. "the body rolls quite a bit for an SUV with as firm a ride as this"...."difficult to place it accurately between obstacles"...indeed, there were few entrants they liked less than the Tribeca (the Torrent and H3 were two).

They really liked the new Korean twins, Tucson and Sportage, and of course the Land Rover - when do the mags not love the LR, regardless of how many times things stop working in the first 1000 miles?! :-P

kyfdx

MT seems to answer their own question..

They can't figure out exactly what it is... But, then say that Subaru is known for building "terrific SUV alternatives".

It seems like that is a perfect description of the Tribeca.. Build what people want/need... not to make it fit in some standard category...

Not that I'm enamored of the Tribeca... but, to me... it seems the logical thing for Subaru to have designed.

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ateixeira

I think the "inexpensive and built to stay that way" image remains, and people have a tough time accepting a $36,800 crossover SUV, no matter how well equipped it is.

If it has a Lexus badge, or maybe even a Scion badge (a brand with no identity yet), they wouldn't be asking that. For Scion, they'd be calling it yet another car loaded with personality, something like that.

I've driven a Tucson, nice, but pretty ordinary. The most appealing things about it are price and warranty, IMO. That's not where Subaru wants to be.

Though I realize some people with Subaru *did* want to be competing in that segment.

-juice

varmint

I was just flipping through Road & Track. They've got a glassary of terms for new readers and I happened to notice an entry for AWD. At the end they write:

"AWD offerings include Audi's Quattro, Honda/Acura's SH-AWD, Mercedes Benz's 4Matic, and Volkswagen's 4Motion."


That's gotta hurt. :sick:

Which makes me think... If Subaru is going to be synonymous with AWD, they had better find a catchier name for it. The editor's probably think Subaru's all wheel drive system is called, "Subaru's all wheel drive system".

ateixeira

That's what they use, but I guess it's not perceived as enough of a "brand" to be listed.

Including 4Motion is ridiculous, the only VW to offer that right now is the Phaeton, and they sell about 3 of those per year.

On the other hand, the industry is largely criticized for branding stability control systems to a point that consumers are confused and don't really understand the benefits of that feature overall. VSC, Stabilitrak, VDC, etc.

-juice

robr2

The Toureg has 4Motion. OK they call it 4XMotion but you get the idea.

ateixeira

So does the Audi TT but they call that Quattro. :confuse:

It's just a name, pure marketing really.

-juice

prosa

a Scion badge (a brand with no identity yet)

Scion is trying hard to develop a strong identity, namely as the vehicle of choice for the young and hip. Take a look at its site sometime, it's enough to make anyone over the age of 25 queasy.
And yet, for all its pandering to the youth market, Scion's average buyer age is something like 44 or 45. True, that may be skewed somewhat by parents buying Scions for their children, but clearly the brand's almost complete ignoring of the over-25 market is not having the desired effect.

ateixeira

I see their auto show booths as a bit like "wanna-be Mini". They ape a lot of Mini Cooper stuff, in terms of the personalization.

They hire DJs and pump techno music, it's hilarious.

I guess 44 year olds like techno.

-juice

robr2

I remember feeling a bit "old" at the Scion booth. I was approached by a 20 year old kid with a soul patch and wearing baggy cargo pants, Vans, a long sleeve Scion tee, and a Scion knit cap.

I'm not even the average age of a Scion buyer yet.

ateixeira

So they are targeting 14 year olds?

Actually, I think Scion was a great idea, it allows Toyota to take wild risks that they would not normally take under the Toyota name alone.

This is why I think Scion could be the one to get future Subaru-shared platforms.

-juice

jeffmc

There are two Symmetrical AWD commercials at the link I've included here from Subaru's global site. These are elegant, refined images that do a lot to advertise Symmetrical AWD and portray Subaru as an elegant, refined brand. These should be aired on TV here. They'd be a real image-booster for the brand and the AWD system. I particularly like "Radio Control", and they'd have to do a serious disclaimer for "Water Dance".
http://www.subaru-global.com/about/entertainment/index.html

ateixeira

Some of the stuff they do (like those ads) are really good, but SoA often does their own stuff.

When the WRX came out the Global folks kept calling it the New Age Impreza, and that never caught on here.

-juice

robr2

Now those ads are GOOD!! Beats the pants off Dust In The Wind, Flintstones, and deer crossing.

Those evoke passion and spirit. Heck they even evoke a - dare I say it - PREMIUM image. And they were able to do it without one mention of symetrical AWD or the boxer engine.

So in what English speaking country do they drive on the left? The taglines were in English but the announcer may have been French or Italian.

dino001

So in what English speaking country do they drive on the left?

United Kingdom, Ireland, South Africa, Singapour, Australia, New Zealand, India (not sure).

robr2

Sorry - I meant drive on the right. I was so enamored of the ads I lost my train of thought.

prosa

The Honda Element is another example, along with Scion, of a vehicle that's intended for the youth market but is surprisingly common with older buyers. I've heard, anecdotally, that many seniors are finding the Element especially useful because it's easy for them to get in and out of the vehicles.

ateixeira

In AN today. First, FHI is cutting some staff. However, a 2nd story mentions Toyota's shortage of talent means they might be reassigned.

The 3rd mentions incentives, I believe the Tribeca will carry a $1000 dealer incentive but only for dealers that meet certain sales targets.

-juice

rsholland

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1294750.cms

snowbelter

Bob-There was an article in Saturday's Wall St Journal regarding the Indiana facility. Sounds like Toyota is looking for another assembly plant in the US and has sent some of its engineers to Indiana to see if that plant can be used for Toyota production. Toyota sales are increasing faster than they have been able to increase production in the US and they want to make sure any increased production is in the US to try and minimize political backlash. Martin

varmint

That could help significantly with Subaru's negative cash-flow at SIA. If it happens, that's one major hurdle for Subaru here in the US. They still need to get their sales up, but the extra $ would make it easier to offer incentives and add options to existing cars.

dstew1

The Honda Element is another example, along with Scion, of a vehicle that's intended for the youth market but is surprisingly common with older buyers. I've heard, anecdotally, that many seniors are finding the Element especially useful because it's easy for them to get in and out of the vehicles.

The Subaru salesman I bought my Forester from told me the exact same thing about the Baja. He said one of the Baja's original intents was as a fun, compact pick-up for the 22-30 demographic - the "just got out of college and need a sporty car that can move all my junk between leases" age group. He went on to say they hardly sell any of them, but the primary buyers are older people who find it more accessible than a truck.

ateixeira

There just aren't enough of them!

-juice

dstew1

There just aren't enough of them!

Old drivers?

Best not tempt my morbid sense of humor.