still, it's easier for me to justify buying a car when I don't really "need" one if I don't have to make compromises.
And I'm sure that the 5 speed manual doesn't need the space for shift buttons! Actually, that's a dumb use of the real estate.
IMO, after the first few days, hardly anyone uses the buttons or other manumatic feature. And on the very rare occasion that you do want it, it is easy enough to use the shift lever.
But, most people use the radio every day, and adjust it quite frequently, so radio buttons actually have some practical value.
I know you're kidding, but... Even the S2000, which has the whole radio within 6 inches of the steering wheel, has redundant controls. And the S2K is as performance oriented as any other car on the road.
I wouldn't consider the omission of these controls a big issue. This is a very nit-picky thing. But, if their plan is to move forward with a premium image, little things do count.
As juice said, these radio steering wheel contols are standard on Subies up-market models: all Tribecas, all H-6 Outbacks, all Legacy/Outback turbos with automatic trannys.
I'm sure we'll see this feature trickle down to lesser Subies soon.
Because a recent trend at Subaru is the mid-year update.
They put a NAV option on the 5 passenger Tribeca models.
Now they've come out with an Outback 2.5i SE model, SE adding NAV, 6CD, and auto climate control to the base Outback.
Both were running changes for MY2006.
This is a welcome trend - they almost always used to add things like this for the next model year. Perhaps they've put some flexible production models in place which allow quicker changes, which I think is a *great* idea.
Now that the MazdaSpeed MS6 is out, hopefully the Spec B can get a 6 speed to match as a running change this year? That requires re-certification with the EPA so maybe I'm being optimistic.
I think it is very optimistic. However, isn't EPA lax for short product lines? I don't know then if all thing like a B-Spec/Legacy STI would lump with other Legacys or not.
In pure numbers, let's see, 5359 YTD for the Baja, 50075 for the Outback overall, but the sedan has been just 7% of those sales historically, which would put it around 3505.
Well below the Baja!
Not only that...the Baja is great PR for Subaru. Why? Because it's the EPA's most fuel-efficient compact truck, so it tops the economical lists every year.
Meanwhile, the Outback Sedan was the opposite. It got a lot of slack for being a sedan that was qualified as an MPV for CAFE purposes, and brought negative attention for Subaru.
When you weigh that the Baja has more sales AND acts as a goodwill ambassador, the OB sedan loses big time.
The title of Dud in the lineup goes to ... drumroll please ... the Outback Sedan.
Not only that...the Baja is great PR for Subaru. Why? Because it's the EPA's most fuel-efficient compact truck, so it tops the economical lists every year.
Step away from the Kool-Aid juice!! It may top the lists but nobody cares - hence it's irrelevant and IMHO is closely on the heels of the Outback Sedan for the Dud title. Except in New England where I see those pretty often - more often than Baja's.
Go over the the Ridgeline forum - folks over there are calling it a dud because it only sold 30K units so far and Honda has scaled back production by 6%.
Why the base model Outback gets NAV with SE and not the limited? Given that NAV is an expensive addition ($2K), why they are targeting buyers that are going cheap with the base model? I don't understand the logic there.
I understand why some who wanted luxury would go for 2.5i model because of gas mileage, instead turbo or 3.0 engine. I think the next expensive item in the list of option, after the limited package, would be the NAV.
Anyhow, anyone knows if it is possible to add the NAV after the fact? Is it available as orderable part for the dealers? I bought the 2006 2.5i limited and would like integrated NAV. I would have bought the 5pass + NAV Tribeca or 2006 VDC, but I didn't like the gas mileage and found the 2.5i has plenty of power already.
As noted in another message, the Outback sedan is even less common than the Baja. A quick inventory search at subaru.com uncovered precisely zero at the three dealers closest to me. It certainly seems like something that could be both useful and different. Why doesn't Subaru produce more, especially in something less than the costly LL Bean trim?
Yes, very true. I was just reading about how something like 30% of Chrysler's sales went to corporate and rental leases. They barely make a profit on those sales.
rob: there is a PR value to having the a vehicle on any "most fuel efficient list", whether or not it sells well.
Honda keeps the Insight around to maintain the crown, even though it sells in tiny numbers and surely can't be making a profit.
Do you know how much Toyota would benefit if Honda dropped it? They already get *way* too much credit for the Prius, while they sell far more trucks that are among the worst polluters in the market (Sequoia, Tundra, Land Cruiser, GX470, etc.).
movedor: they did that because this is now the only inexpensive model to offer NAV, and because it's a very high volume model.
JDPower says 47% of people will consider NAV on their next car, so it's not just the rich any more.
Just get a Garmin or Tom Tom, check the NAV threads for details on what's available.
rob: there is a PR value to having the a vehicle on any "most fuel efficient list", whether or not it sells well.
That is true but how many people have they told that the Baja is on that list? Until you mentioned it, I'd never heard of that. Good information has to be shared in order for it to have any effect.
I think there's probably a big difference between having the most fuel efficient vehicle on the road (period) and having the most fuel efficient vehicle within a class of vehicles not generally shopped for fuel economy.
I don't doubt that the Baja gives Subaru some positive PR for its press on this issue. But I have doubts that PR alone is enough to justify the vehicle against poor sales.
I thought the article was unclear. The story says it's FHI that's reducing its workforce by 5%. Do they really mean it's Subaru's workforce being reduced, or is this cut spread throughout FHI? Who knows. Also, it's pretty hard to say whether they refer to Subaru Global, Subaru of Japan, or what. At least it's nice to see it's being done through voluntary retirement.
If you're an employer, I guess that's one way to get around age discrimination and higher medical costs.
There's a fellow I work with who took a voluntary departure incentive a few years ago, and has kept coming back to fill in when asked. So far this year he's worked over 200 days - practically full-time! It's a pretty sweet deal when you can get paid to leave your job, and then get paid again to come back.
movedor: they did that because this is now the only inexpensive model to offer NAV, and because it's a very high volume model.
JDPower says 47% of people will consider NAV on their next car, so it's not just the rich any more.
I still don't get it. Why not offer NAV in the 2.5i Limited as well? Isn't the limited model where they have higher profits? Adding NAV there would make a few extra bucks more for them. It sounds to me one of those arbitrary decisions based on market studies that a wide open to interpretation.
Just get a Garmin or Tom Tom, check the NAV threads for details on what's available.
Yes, yes, but I don't want to carry in and out of the car every time I park on the street, also those power cords are pretty annoying. They get in the way. I want integrated in the panel, so doesn't attract burglars.
I was kind of hoping I could order the NAV as replacement unit for a defective one. Once a saw somewhere in a web site a very long list of replacement parts, small and large, for subarus. Maybe NAV could be there?
I've said this many times before, and that is that NAV units will soon become as popular as cell phones. They are going to become the next "must-have." Therefore the sooner Subaru offers this feature on every car they sell, the better off everyone will be.
I'm old enough to remember when power steering, power brakes, electric windows and air conditioning were all options even on luxury cars (BTW, it wasn't that long ago). Now those features are all standard on most cars, and they are all standard on every Subie sold here. The same will happen with NAV—and the sooner Subaru realizes that, the better.
It all depends. Remember phones installed in luxury cars? Where are they now? Sometimes aftermarket takes care of it better than manufacturers. There may be more cheaper portable nav units. Of course those installed in cars by manufacturers offer better integration and multifunctioning with other systems, like climate control etc. I just say, we shall see.
I agree.. at some point, almost every car will at least offer it, and depending on the price point of the car, you'll see much higher acceptance rates... You can even get it on the new Civic..
The only thing holding it back right now, is the high cost.. When the manufacturer's think they can sell enough to make it worth their while, you'll see it in a lot more cars, and hopefully at a lower price point.. ($995?)
I agree that it is a "safe bet". But a bet is still a gamble.
Here's what I expect will happen. Anybody here ever read Net Force? It's a spin-off series of books based on a concept by Tom Clancy. Anyway, it's set a decade or so into the future. Everybody walks around with this fictional thing they call a VIRGIL. It's a combination cell phone, GPS, camera, PDA, i-Pod, Gameboy, chain saw, toothbrush, etc.
Soon manufacturers will simply offer a screen, with some programmable controls, and an input jack. You'll plug your device into the thing and be able to display all your information on the built-in screen.
We will start seeing NAV units with different levels of complexity. I see NAV in entry-level cars sans trip computers and any other extranious gismos; just the basic NAV unit, nothing more.
Not only does the Civic now offer NAV, but so does the Mazda3. More carmakers are sure to do the same.
I think as real-time traffic reports become more common and more accurate, this will make NAV units useful 24/7. Acura already has this feature in their new RL's NAV unit, and it's standard BTW. I think this is just the tip of the iceburg, as more (and better) traffic report NAV units are sure to come.
I think as real-time traffic reports become more common and more accurate, this will make NAV units useful 24/7. Acura already has this feature in their new RL's NAV unit, and it's standard BTW. I think this is just the tip of the iceburg, as more (and better) traffic report NAV units are sure to come.
And that my friends is the holy grail to some: a continuous stream of revenue. It may be more profitable in the long run to decrease or subsidize the cost of the equipment in order to ensure a regular revenue stream from a subscription.
This should help bring some cashflow to FHI. Let the rumors fly!
NAGOYA (Nikkei)--Toyota Motor Corp. (7203) plans to contract out to Subaru maker Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. (7270) the full redesign of an existing model, possibly a sporty subcompact, with the aim of rolling out the remodeled version in two to three years, The Nihon Keizai Shimbun learned Tuesday.
Based on rock-solid insider information I have [read: wild guess]... Toyota is turning over the Matrix. It's an existing model, based on a proven Toyota platform, with features which are not dissimilar to what Subaru does best (small wagon, AWD, etc.). Because it's not a high volume seller, the "risk" of turning it over to FHI is acceptable.
Makes sense, right? So where's the sinister part?
Toyota isn't going to let Soob engineers transform the whole platform to make it a symmetrical, boxer-powered vehicle. It's going to remain a transverse I4 which can be built on the same assembly line as other Corrolla-based models. And I'm sure Toyota will have a long list of requirements to reign in the Subaru designers.
It's all a subversive plot to get Subaru engineers to appreciate something other than their own designs. Toyota = Borg :zoiks:
Subaru has a long history in making transverse-engined vehicles. The tiny 660cc Japan-only Sambar truck, Pleo, R1, and R2 cars are all built that way, and they are offered in both FWD and AWD. Same with the slightly larger AWD G3 Justy, which is sold in some European markets.
If the vehicle's overall length is the prime consideration in terms of design, then the transverse-engine is a better solution than the boxer engine, which is rather long, as it sits in front of the front axle.
Subaru will develop the next Matrix, which it will then share with Toyota as both Toyota and Subaru models? What am I missing here? What on Earth does Subaru need with ANOTHER small-medium wagon? Or would it be expected to replace the Impreza (highly unlikely)? Or would Subaru merely fill the role of a subcontractor, developing a model for Toyota so that Toyota, which can't spare the personnel, doesn't have to do it itself?
If it is that last, I kinda like the idea. Subaru overengineers things more than Toyota does these days, and Toyotas have become a little "thin" as a result. Subaru could do lots to improve the Matrix. Imagine a rally-ready Matrix (with a more capable engine this time, ahem, Toyota!)! I like that idea. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Based on rock-solid insider information I have [read: wild guess]... Toyota is turning over the Matrix.
Wouldn't it be ironic if this was actually the plan? Subie engineers would then have to sit down with GM engineers because the changes would apply to the Vibe and the Voltz!!!
"Subaru has a long history in making transverse-engined vehicles. The tiny 660cc Japan-only Sambar truck, Pleo, R1, and R2 cars are all built that way, and they are offered in both FWD and AWD. Same with the slightly larger AWD G3 Justy, which is sold in some European markets."
You're no fun. Way to ruin a perfectly good conspiracy theory. :P
Robr2 - Too funny. You're right about the GM connection.
Comments
But a lot of models do offer that feature.
I think that's fine - the GT is more driver-oriented and can do without that luxury touch.
-juice
And I'm sure that the 5 speed manual doesn't need the space for shift buttons! Actually, that's a dumb use of the real estate.
IMO, after the first few days, hardly anyone uses the buttons or other manumatic feature. And on the very rare occasion that you do want it, it is easy enough to use the shift lever.
But, most people use the radio every day, and adjust it quite frequently, so radio buttons actually have some practical value.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
You're right about the manual trannys, though.
-juice
I wouldn't consider the omission of these controls a big issue. This is a very nit-picky thing. But, if their plan is to move forward with a premium image, little things do count.
I'm sure we'll see this feature trickle down to lesser Subies soon.
Bob
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
They put a NAV option on the 5 passenger Tribeca models.
Now they've come out with an Outback 2.5i SE model, SE adding NAV, 6CD, and auto climate control to the base Outback.
Both were running changes for MY2006.
This is a welcome trend - they almost always used to add things like this for the next model year. Perhaps they've put some flexible production models in place which allow quicker changes, which I think is a *great* idea.
Now that the MazdaSpeed MS6 is out, hopefully the Spec B can get a 6 speed to match as a running change this year? That requires re-certification with the EPA so maybe I'm being optimistic.
-juice
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Bob
-juice
They have 2 of them??
Sorry - required pile on the Baja content.
Well below the Baja!
Not only that...the Baja is great PR for Subaru. Why? Because it's the EPA's most fuel-efficient compact truck, so it tops the economical lists every year.
Meanwhile, the Outback Sedan was the opposite. It got a lot of slack for being a sedan that was qualified as an MPV for CAFE purposes, and brought negative attention for Subaru.
When you weigh that the Baja has more sales AND acts as a goodwill ambassador, the OB sedan loses big time.
The title of Dud in the lineup goes to ... drumroll please ... the Outback Sedan.
-juice
Step away from the Kool-Aid juice!! It may top the lists but nobody cares - hence it's irrelevant and IMHO is closely on the heels of the Outback Sedan for the Dud title. Except in New England where I see those pretty often - more often than Baja's.
Go over the the Ridgeline forum - folks over there are calling it a dud because it only sold 30K units so far and Honda has scaled back production by 6%.
I understand why some who wanted luxury would go for 2.5i model because of gas mileage, instead turbo or 3.0 engine. I think the next expensive item in the list of option, after the limited package, would be the NAV.
Anyhow, anyone knows if it is possible to add the NAV after the fact? Is it available as orderable part for the dealers? I bought the 2006 2.5i limited and would like integrated NAV. I would have bought the 5pass + NAV Tribeca or 2006 VDC, but I didn't like the gas mileage and found the 2.5i has plenty of power already.
Bob
Looks like Subaru is doing a little work to reduce overhead. Also mentioned is an up to date profit forecast.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Subaru is sitting pretty by comparison.
Honda keeps the Insight around to maintain the crown, even though it sells in tiny numbers and surely can't be making a profit.
Do you know how much Toyota would benefit if Honda dropped it? They already get *way* too much credit for the Prius, while they sell far more trucks that are among the worst polluters in the market (Sequoia, Tundra, Land Cruiser, GX470, etc.).
movedor: they did that because this is now the only inexpensive model to offer NAV, and because it's a very high volume model.
JDPower says 47% of people will consider NAV on their next car, so it's not just the rich any more.
Just get a Garmin or Tom Tom, check the NAV threads for details on what's available.
-juice
That is true but how many people have they told that the Baja is on that list? Until you mentioned it, I'd never heard of that. Good information has to be shared in order for it to have any effect.
-juice
I don't doubt that the Baja gives Subaru some positive PR for its press on this issue. But I have doubts that PR alone is enough to justify the vehicle against poor sales.
Obviously it would be 2nd.
-juice
Wonder if the sales of either vehicle are any better in Canada?
Owen
-juice
Last time I checked, retirement is supposed to be voluntary!!
Oops, I mean, are you ready to retire, sir?
At 37 I'm ready for early retirement.
-juice
There's a fellow I work with who took a voluntary departure incentive a few years ago, and has kept coming back to fill in when asked. So far this year he's worked over 200 days - practically full-time! It's a pretty sweet deal when you can get paid to leave your job, and then get paid again to come back.
JDPower says 47% of people will consider NAV on their next car, so it's not just the rich any more.
I still don't get it. Why not offer NAV in the 2.5i Limited as well? Isn't the limited model where they have higher profits? Adding NAV there would make a few extra bucks more for them. It sounds to me one of those arbitrary decisions based on market studies that a wide open to interpretation.
Just get a Garmin or Tom Tom, check the NAV threads for details on what's available.
Yes, yes, but I don't want to carry in and out of the car every time I park on the street, also those power cords are pretty annoying. They get in the way. I want integrated in the panel, so doesn't attract burglars.
I was kind of hoping I could order the NAV as replacement unit for a defective one. Once a saw somewhere in a web site a very long list of replacement parts, small and large, for subarus. Maybe NAV could be there?
I'm old enough to remember when power steering, power brakes, electric windows and air conditioning were all options even on luxury cars (BTW, it wasn't that long ago). Now those features are all standard on most cars, and they are all standard on every Subie sold here. The same will happen with NAV—and the sooner Subaru realizes that, the better.
Bob
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Bob
The only thing holding it back right now, is the high cost.. When the manufacturer's think they can sell enough to make it worth their while, you'll see it in a lot more cars, and hopefully at a lower price point.. ($995?)
regards,
kyfdx
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Here's what I expect will happen. Anybody here ever read Net Force? It's a spin-off series of books based on a concept by Tom Clancy. Anyway, it's set a decade or so into the future. Everybody walks around with this fictional thing they call a VIRGIL. It's a combination cell phone, GPS, camera, PDA, i-Pod, Gameboy, chain saw, toothbrush, etc.
Soon manufacturers will simply offer a screen, with some programmable controls, and an input jack. You'll plug your device into the thing and be able to display all your information on the built-in screen.
We will start seeing NAV units with different levels of complexity. I see NAV in entry-level cars sans trip computers and any other extranious gismos; just the basic NAV unit, nothing more.
Not only does the Civic now offer NAV, but so does the Mazda3. More carmakers are sure to do the same.
I think as real-time traffic reports become more common and more accurate, this will make NAV units useful 24/7. Acura already has this feature in their new RL's NAV unit, and it's standard BTW. I think this is just the tip of the iceburg, as more (and better) traffic report NAV units are sure to come.
Bob
And that my friends is the holy grail to some: a continuous stream of revenue. It may be more profitable in the long run to decrease or subsidize the cost of the equipment in order to ensure a regular revenue stream from a subscription.
NAGOYA (Nikkei)--Toyota Motor Corp. (7203) plans to contract out to Subaru maker Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. (7270) the full redesign of an existing model, possibly a sporty subcompact, with the aim of rolling out the remodeled version in two to three years, The Nihon Keizai Shimbun learned Tuesday.
Here's a link, but you need a subscription (which I don't have) to view more.
http://www.nni.nikkei.co.jp/CF/FR/TNKS/nikkeinews.cfm?GenreID=3&PageSet=1
http://blogs.edmunds.com/.ee8c598
Bob
Makes sense, right? So where's the sinister part?
Toyota isn't going to let Soob engineers transform the whole platform to make it a symmetrical, boxer-powered vehicle. It's going to remain a transverse I4 which can be built on the same assembly line as other Corrolla-based models. And I'm sure Toyota will have a long list of requirements to reign in the Subaru designers.
It's all a subversive plot to get Subaru engineers to appreciate something other than their own designs. Toyota = Borg :zoiks:
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific_business/view/177704/1/.html
If the vehicle's overall length is the prime consideration in terms of design, then the transverse-engine is a better solution than the boxer engine, which is rather long, as it sits in front of the front axle.
Bob
If it is that last, I kinda like the idea. Subaru overengineers things more than Toyota does these days, and Toyotas have become a little "thin" as a result. Subaru could do lots to improve the Matrix. Imagine a rally-ready Matrix (with a more capable engine this time, ahem, Toyota!)! I like that idea. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Wouldn't it be ironic if this was actually the plan? Subie engineers would then have to sit down with GM engineers because the changes would apply to the Vibe and the Voltz!!!
Bob
You're no fun. Way to ruin a perfectly good conspiracy theory. :P
Robr2 - Too funny. You're right about the GM connection.