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Comments
-juice
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Got any siblings? :surprise:
-juice
Frail old drivers that need a pickup with a low entry point.
hey isn't that bob LMAO
-juice
Even the $299/month lease is apparently not warming peoples' hearts enough to sign up.
Perspective: I have a co-worker who is a minor Subie fan, drives a '96 Legacy. Had to have his car repaired at the dealer recently, hadn't been in there in a while. He came by my office today and mentioned he had cruised the lot while he was waiting for his car, and had noticed that there were Legacy/Outbacks there that stickered for $33K. "Are they bloody crazy?" he asked me (he is a Brit). "$33 thousand for a Subaru???"
I think he would be underwhelmed by the Tribeca's price too.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
If he, or anyone can't see the difference between a 10-year-ld Legacy and a new one, then he/they must be blind.
Compare it to any comparably priced Euro-sedan, which is what it's targeted at, and the Legacy GT comes out looking pretty good.
Bob
Correct. The problem, however, is that many would-be buyers don't think of the Legacy GT as comparable to a Euro-sedan, or to such upscale Japanese models as the Acura TL. Given Subaru's generally lower profile and economical reputation, they're much more likely to think of the Legacy GT as a competitor to the Camry, Accord, Altima, Fusion, Mazda6 etc., even if the vehicle's specifications and capabilities suggest otherwise.
Bob - we've had this discussion a thousand times. That's what Subaru wants the market to do but it can't just will them there. It's going to take years before people will accept Subaru in that stratosphere.
The idea of a $38K Passat gives me the willeys too.
I bet within 5 years seeing Legacy GT and base BMW, et al, being used in the same sentence will seem as natural as peanut butter and jelly.
Bob
Subaru is not a status symbol any more than Toyota or Honda is. If they want to sell 25K cars for 33K they should launch a new brand.
It all bs but that is the way the public is.
The $299 lease requires a rather large down payment, so it's not all its cracked up to be. Compare that to VW's lease offer on the Passat, which is just $299, and you only pay dealer processing fee and tags, nothing else.
The Leg GT doesn't take aim at the TL, it's closer to the TSX. I think Bob pointed out earlier that they have identical wheelbases.
For what it's worth, the Legacy strategy has worked. The Outback/Legacy mix has swayed more towards the latter, and Subaur is building a lot more sedans now. I'd say that actual transactions prices are a good $2 grand or more higher than the were before the 2005 models came out, even when you factor incentives.
For example, we paid $17,827 for our 2002 Legacy L wagon. You can't even come close to that now. A 2.5i wagon would run about $22 grand. And sales are up, remember.
Compare that to the Passat, since you brought it up, and the VW is way behind the Legacy GT in accomplishing its mission. Subaru increased price and content, and sales went up. VW increased price and content, and sales took a nose dive.
Choose another model to pick on, the Legacy is doing better than ever. Subaru only wishes they could have that level of success with the Tribeca.
-juice
Yes, that's absolutely correct. Also, BMW has moved further upscale with their latest 3 Series. The L-GT compares very favorably with the last generation 325, less so with the new one. I haven't priced a new 325, but I bet it's higher than the outgoing model.
As to image, or launching an "upscale label," that's not going to happen. Image changes over time. So while many are now having a tough time thinking of Subaru as being a premium brand, that will change over years. Remember it wasn't all that long ago that Subaru sold the 360, or VW was know for the (original) Beetle.
Bob
Equip the BMW like a GT Limited, though, and the price might even break $40k, and that's for a 325, not 330.
Subaru sold the 360, or VW was know for the (original) Beetle
And BMW sold the Isetta!
-juice
That's also correct. Image and perception do change, as the Isetta shows. It may take a while, but it does occur.
Bob
And yet several carmakers from Japan are forging ahead here, increasing sales month over month. Is the market weak in North America, or is Subaru the one with "weakness"?
If the Legacy GT is really $33K, then it seems to me that it competes with the TL: similar performance and price. The TSX goes out the door $6K less, or even cheaper. And doesn't measure up to the Leg GT's performance.
As for Tribeca, it is not a good sign when a carmaker promotes a "special lease" that it thinks will be attractive enough to boost numbers on a model, and people don't take it up on the offer. It would seem to indicate that the subsidized (lower) value of that model under the lease is still higher than what the market thinks it is worth.
I still have high hopes for the Toyota partnership causing things to pick up steam, with increased utilization of the SIA plant if nothing else.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
http://www.subaru.com/shop/model_consideration.jsp?model=LEGACY
Bob
Probably $37K or more with everything that the Legacy GT has on it...
I don't really see them as competitors, though... I equate a Legacy with an Accord or Camry... I think most shoppers see them that way... Against that backdrop, $33K is very expensive...
regards,
kyfdx
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For the tradional Subaru customer - yes.
Against a BMW 325? or Audi A4 with the base engine? I don't.
Neither do I. The GT is a great value against those.
I bet within 5 years seeing Legacy GT and base BMW, et al, being used in the same sentence will seem as natural as peanut butter and jelly.
I don't disagree but you can't say that today - and that's what I'm trying to say. As much as Subaru wants to be premium, they are not preceived that way. And no matter how much the Subienistas try, just because you say they are comparable today doesn't make the rest of the world do so.
VW is in a not entirely dissimilar situation as Subaru. It's trying to move beyond its economy-car image and go upscale, with less-than-stellar results. VW just yanked the Phaeton from the U.S. market, after selling less than 700 units so far this year. Buyers simply weren't willing to pay $65,000+ for a Volkswagen, not even one with superb engineering and built on the same platform as the Bentley Continental. Sales of the Touareg are running about 30,000 per year, less than a third of the Lexus RX330 and less than half of the Acura MDX. The Touraeg is in no way inferior to either competitor, the point is that many people who are going to pay $40,000 for an SUV would rather have a Lexus or Acura name on it. Even the newly redesigned Passats and Jettas have gotten off to a slow start, in part because almost all the models on dealer lots have expensive premium packages. Jetta sales finally seem to be picking up a bit, but Passat sales remain sluggish.
If Volkswagen, a more established brand, has had so much trouble changing its image and moving upscale, it'll be all that much harder for Subaru. It has little to do with the quality - Touaregs and Passats are fine vehicles, just as Legacy GT's and 'becas are. It has much to do, however, with image and brand name. That's the way people shop, and wishful thinking isn't going to change matters.
That's also correct. Image and perception do change, as the Isetta shows. It may take a while, but it does occur.
The Isetta was sold 40 years ago. Let's hope it doesn't take Subaru 40 years to change it's image.
For 25 years Subaru sat on its laurels without pushing the image of the brand forward an inch, then suddenly it wants the market to believe it has totally changed its image in a single decade or less. To something which has earned it the right to double the average transaction price of its vehicles...
THAT is what my Brit co-worker's comment was all about. NOT that the car wasn't perhaps worth $33 grand, just that who would pay that much for a Subaru?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
1. steering column/general ergonomics (not really tangible, but anyone sitting inside of those would pick it up right away)
2. Interior design
3. 6 speed MT/6-speed AT
4. availability of options (you pay, but you can get them)
5. paid maintenance/longer warranty
Even comparing to Acura TSX, Volvo S40/V50 or Saab 9-3 is a stretch in some way. Of course you get power and AWD, I love it and am all for it. But it is still somewhat off in "nice" and "gadget" departments to be seriously considered.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Subaru has to start somewhere. Are you and everyone else saying Subaru doesn't have snowball's chance in hell to improve their image, or to move the brand up-market in buyers minds? I don't agree with that.
Look, anytime a brand tries to change their image, there will always be naysayers saying they shouldn't do so, or that it will never be associated with (name a brand), etc. That's all BS. Images and perceptions do change. It will take some time—not 40 years, but probably 5 years is about right.
Subaru is thought today much more highly as a brand than they were 5 years ago, or certainly 10 years ago. This image-changing will continue.
Bob
Better egronomics on Euro-cars? Not the ones I've been in.
Lack of a 6-speed? You'll see on on the '07 Spec.B.
You can nit-pick the Legacy all you want. It's still a good deal IMO.
Bob
Having said that, a GT is certainly not $33k, not even MSRP. Even the Spec B, loaded up with NAV and 18" wheels, is under $30k street price. These aren't TL prices.
dino brings up some valid issues, others I'll counter:
1. they need a telescoping wheel, SVX had it so they're capable
2. interior will improve as they move upscale, I think they're on the right track here. Ditch the shiny plastic, though.
3. 6 speed will be on the Spec B next year. I agree about the auto, the base legacy is still just a 4 speed!
4. HIDs will arrive next year, NAV is spreading. They are working on this.
5. Paid maintenance - LL Bean models tried this, but it was 2 years. Mercedes dropped this, I think Audi dropped or reduced their program. Very few still offer this, so I gotta disagree here. Not sure if I'd rather have 3/36 and 5/60 powertrain or just 4/48 bumper-to-bumper, so I'm not sure about the warranty either.
You missed one - audio features. They finally got MP3 capability, but where is the aux input for the iPod? Also, Tribeca needs a backup camera.
Subaru tends to roll out 2-3 changes each model year so potentially they could address most or all of these within a year or two, let's see.
-juice
If Lexus and Infinity could do it, then why not Subaru? We have all witnessed the improvements Subaru has made but we also realize there is much work to be done. As long as the quality holds up, and so far it has, the rest can be brought along. People will pay a premium for these vehicles and folks will trade their Audi's and Volvos to get a quality product from Subaru. I know that was what convinced me. I was fed up with the electonic glitches of my Volvo and Audi. I wanted a less intimate relationship with my dealer's service department regardless of the nice bagels and coffee. With my Subaru I just change the oil/filter and know that I'm not going to have to call roadside assistance on my next long trip.
What worries me is that Subaru may just end up being purchased by a larger company and lose its "edge". I like the cultlike following of Subaru. I like the "us against the world" feeling of follow owners.
There is something of a magic gap between say $25K car and $35K car. It is actually not easy to fill in. Looks like the market is sharply divided between those who would absolutely not spend more than Camcord range, and then are those who do not care if it is extra 5 grand, as long as there is right stuff in. Those in between are few and tough to get. I am actually one of them. :shades: We are picky and do not like "overpay" for things, but get annoyed when somebody decides that it should not be even available.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura all started with clean slates. They didn't have to overcome existing perceptions or images and they came onto the scene offering a tremendous value while matching or bettering the competition in every benchmark.
But it's going to take a long while to earn that premium reputation. And Subaru doesn't have the resources to take loss after loss while they wait for the American public to wake up and smell the coffee.
That's where I wanted to be $25-30K. IMHO, the Legacy GT didn't belong in the upper end of that range.
I decided that a Legacy would be right for me. But, I really don't need the Turbo, and the price differential to move to a GT is too steep IMO. Plus, the base engine with 175ish HP seems plenty strong to me.
So, a Legacy SE will only run me about 20K (~23 msrp, pay ~21 (invoice +/-, less 1K rebate).
You can argue that a 33K GT is too much, but it is hard to argue that an SE for 20K isn't a good value!
This is a 5 speed I want BTW.
read Edmunds review. They seem to think that the LEgacy competes with the TSX, etc. already, and can certainly give a S40/S60 a run for it's money.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
The Phaeton failed miserably, and the Passat has all that stuff you listed yet sales have plunged. Even with the last model, which was more successful, the W8 4Motion model failed. It was not enough for the Passat to offer everything, even an 8 cylinder and AWD, HIDs, telescoping wheel, power up/down windows all around.
Didn't matter. W8 flopped.
So by itself it's not enough. You need to move gradually up. Even then there is a limit to what a VW can be, no matter how good.
Lexus had the luxury of *deep* pockets, the original LS400 sold for a loss and was subsidized. When they became established the prices went up to where they could profit. I believe prices in 1990 where under $35k, today they hit $70k, nearly double.
A 36k Legacy or Outback is a rare bird. Most are low-mid-upper 20s, by far.
Let me check, just to prove my theory...
OK, cheapest is $20.6k, priciest is $32,915.
However, out of 140 vehicles, fully 132 are under $30 grand. Only 6 fall under $22 grand.
That means that exactly 90% of them fall in the "sweet spot" of $22-30k.
So yes, they sprinkle in a few loaded up ones for the rare customer that comes in and wants the whole enchilada, but that is certainly not where Subaru concentrates its models.
For comparison, in 2002 when we last went shopping, prices were $16.5k up to about $29.5k, with most $19-26 or so. So they've definitely moved up.
-juice
That's because they had no past history, as they were just names created by Toyota's, Nissan's, and Honda's marketing departments for use in the United States. As we all know, the Acura models are Hondas in Europe. All three Japanese manufacturers knew that no one (at least at that time) in the USA would spend $50K+ on a Toyota. Generally, American consumers tend not to be very savvy in product differentiation, or in Marketing 101. Hence, all three manufacturers set up new divisions to market their luxury models here in the USA. Perhaps, this is what Subaru needs to do as well. Otherwise, it's a giant leap of faith from the Subaru 360!
That's the jist of what I said. The original poster didn't say that Subaru should create a new nameplate to market upscale vehicles.
Tribeca's gas tank probably is too small. In city driving the range is poor.
-juice
I think the shock of what Subaru is trying to do will have past, and that they will be on the road to prosperity.
Bob
Watch, it'll be one or the other. I do not think they'll stay where the are now, sort of inbetween.
-juice
Sorry, I don't have the links in which that was mentioned—but it was mentioned.
Bob
-juice
I think if Subaru were to change course now, it would do them in. Retreating back into the safety of the mother's womb would be a sure sign that management lacks confidence and know-how. Once customers see that, it's... bye-bye...
Bob
I'd argue their peak was right before GM bought them. I forget the name of the SoA CEO at the time, but he resigned when he found out GM would gain control. He was the genius that took them from 100k sales to 160k on the back of Croc Dundee, with virtually zero investment.
Back then they had excellent momentum and were really growing fast. The two new procucts since then (Baja, Tribeca) have not met targets.
Ask yourself this, if he had stayed, and Subaru had invested in 2 new ground-up products, would they have grown more than they have? Without the "premium" nonsense?
Who knows?
You say they can't retreat, it's too late now. That may be true. But you gotta wonder where they would be if the GM thing never happened in the first place. Perhaps they would have partnered with Nissan instead, which would have made sense since Nissan was building the plant in Smyrna and could have used SIA instead.
Oh well, water under the bridge. But I think Subaru pride peaked right before the GM announcement. It could bounce back now, with the Toyota partnership, we'll see.
-juice
The man was a genius.
-juice