The only data I have for fleet sales is from 2004. I downloaded a PDF from somewhere and the Sonata is listed at just under 20% fleet and about 20,000 vehicles. And 95% of that was rental (the other fleet categories were commercial and government).
For overall fleet it comes in at 20th place (just cars - no trucks). I hadn't realized that fleet sales were so high now.
The fleet numbers for many of the domestic models are really sad. Ford does have an interesting thing going on with the Crown Vic, though. It is the only vehicle for which half its sales are to the government. No other car is even close. In fact, almost half of government car purchases are Crown Vics.
" Ford does have an interesting thing going on with the Crown Vic, though. It is the only vehicle for which half its sales are to the government. No other car is even close. In fact, almost half of government car purchases are Crown Vics."
As a younger man, I watched the Domestic Auto Industry systematically abdicate the tough, large, RWD market over to Ford, as first Iacocca shut down all RWD cars at Chrysler other than Trucks, and then GM buried their Impala and Cadillac Brougham cars, leaving Ford the entire country's municipal and livery markets to themselves! I just couldn't believe it!
Since then, Ford has built the Panther Platform cars, (Crown Vic, Grand Marquis and Town Car) more each year with Fleet and Livery in mind. They have strengthened the platform stiffness by more than double, beefed up the suspension with the Watts rear linkage, and ball joints that could handle curb jumping with no mis-alignment. The cooling system is over-engineered and the transmission is bullet proof, albeit an old 4 speed auto. Tried and true.
That's great, if you want a domestic tank.
For those of us who believed the 97 Town Car was the high water mark for Lincoln, we have found that attention to the moving parts inside the glass have been de-emphasized more each year. The Air Conditioning is cold, but lacks sufficient volume to quickly cool the car. The Seats have become less and less comfy to the point of resembling the bench seat of a 53 Apache pick up. The dash and instrumentation, once ergonomically efficient and high-tech, with digital instrumentation, etc., and adjustable options for steering effort and other niceties, are ALL gone. The dash now resembles my 62 Galaxie in complexity and information, let alone options. Oh, with one exception.... The one thing missing all these years from the Panther cars was a Tachometer. VITAL when you're a blue-haired retiree driving from your chateau to the Country Club. Well, now they have one. Nice kick, Bill.
I hear the venerable Crown Vic will be around at least through 07. If Ford kills it in favor of a yellow or black and white version of the 500, they're fools. As long as they own the limo, taxi & police market, why would you change that? Especially when your product is so good, and you have a fully depreciated platform that is a cash cow at about any price? There are other issues - CAFE plays a part and technology eventually moves on and we just get tired of a car.... Meanwhile, few if any Crown Vics are now for sale on your Ford lot. Grand Marquis are a staple, and for a good price too, at your L/M lot. Town Cars are a disgrace to the Lincoln badge, other than their rather stately exterior appearance....
This is clearly the worst of times at Ford. I hated what Nasser did to the company - but I hate what Bill is doing, with the possible exception of the Mustang and large Truck line worse. I've driven Lincolns for 16 years - but other than the Navigator, they have nothing left for me.
Sorry for length of the rant. I feel better now. :mad:
"This is clearly the worst of times at Ford. I hated what Nasser did to the company - but I hate what Bill is doing, with the possible exception of the Mustang and large Truck line worse."
Hey the Fusion is selling alright. Ford needs a new Focus compact car. I actually have a little confidence in Ford right now.
"I hear the venerable Crown Vic will be around at least through 07. If Ford kills it in favor of a yellow or black and white version of the 500, they're fools."
"There are other issues - CAFE plays a part and technology eventually moves on and we just get tired of a car...."
Yeah there are other issue such as redesigns as well. I mean Ford can;t keep the Crown Vic and Town Car in its current exterior design forever. Is is it going to be worthed for Ford to redesign the Crown Vic and Town Car just for the gonvernment services and Fortune 500 executive crowd?
Ford has to also judge if the Crown Vic is profitbale enough for them to keep on selling to police and taxi services because it doesn't sell at retail at all. If its not profitable than what the use of keeping it(the Crown Vic.)
"Town Cars are a disgrace to the Lincoln badge, other than their rather stately exterior appearance...."
Well the white collar executives at big companies get shuttled around in Town Cars. Other than that reason I don't see why the Town Car is even in Lincoln's line-up. The car retail wise has no place in today;s market. Again Ford is going to have to decide at some time is the Town Car profitable for us just to sell to limo services alone?
"I've driven Lincolns for 16 years - but other than the Navigator, they have nothing left for me."
I want to know what your opinion on what kind of cars Lincoln should make. I mean you I know you don;t like the Zephyr. The only beef I have with Linclon is while Caddy and Acura were making improvements to their line-up over the past few years Lincoln stood around and let their car line-up just go stale. The last noteworthy Lincoln car before the Zephyr was the LS which was released for the 2000 model year. I mean 6 years of doing nothing. I mean in the luxury car game you have to keep up with your product. Lincoln just stood around and let their market pass by them and sales of the Lincoln brand have declined significantly over the past few years. I hope Lincoln just doesn't let the current Zephyr sit and go stale like they did with the LS and ax it(the Zephyr.)
Ford has to also judge if the Crown Vic is profitable enough for them to keep on selling to police and taxi services because it doesn't sell at retail at all. If its not profitable than what the use of keeping it(the Crown Vic.)
IMO Ford should keep the CV as is for sale to police and taxi only and the GM, which still has a strong market (so what that it's the more mature crowd at least they are still buying and makes a profit).
"Town Cars are a disgrace to the Lincoln badge, other than their rather stately exterior appearance...."
You got that right I think it's needs to be dropped and the GM needs a full tilt fully loaded version...perhaps A GM Brougham?...to take it's place. I think the TC buyers would follow.
IMO Ford has no interest in Lincoln any more. Why not let Lincoln die with dignity and let Mercury fill in the slack. Just like General Motor's "move up as you get older/wealthier" divisions just don't work anymore for them, it's not working for Ford either.
You are 100% right about the durability of the Panther platform, but I have to disagree with your statements about the Town Car. Persoanlly, I think the 2003 was the best year ever for the town Car. They have gradually dropped some equipment over the past few years. Still, the newest bodystyle offers way more in terms of technology than the 1997. The adjustable steering that you are speaking of is now automatic, and does not require you to guess at the right adjustment. It calculates the desired steering effort based on the RPM's of the motor. The Town Car still has a digital dash in addition to the analog. The car did not loose anything, just improved. I also think the interiors are much nicer. It has a much classier look. There is a lot more woodgrain, higher quality leather, contrasting tri-color interior panels...I also think the seats on the newest Town Car are much more comfortable. The pillow top seats of the 1997 were very dated by 97.
This car still has a place in the retail market. Of course, the Town Car is marketed to an older customer. This does present the problem of the market dying off. That will be the death of the Town Car. Though, the Town car doesn't offer as many of the technological goodies as some of the competitors, it more than makes up for it in design, style, comfort, and dependability. The Town Car is one of the finest luxury sedans on the market and a bargain at any price.
At this weekend's All-Ford Nationals in Carlisle, the company had several new cars on display, including the Fusion. It looked very sharp - I can't imagine anyone would want a Taurus after seeing the new Fusion. Well, maybe the diehard pennypinchers would still want the Taurus, but Ford needs to expand beyond those customers.
The Fusion is one of the best-looking family sedans on the market right now, and miles ahead of the Malibu and G6 (both inside and out).
Suprisingly, Ford didn't have the new Expedition on display yet. I thought it was supposed to be out soon.
It will be interesting to see the facelifted Five Hundred. At least Ford isn't waiting 5-7 years to address two of the car's shortcomings - dull styling and a lackluster engine.
Just look where Ford is throwing their money, and the fact the Panther is being ignored. That tells you all you need to know.
The Panther is the only durable car they sell - once it is gone, it will be nothing but rebadged foreign designed unibody fwd crackerboxes. I guess Ford realizes most new car buyers buy for style first, and everything else second.
No thanks - maybe General Motors will have something by then.
"I want to know what your opinion on what kind of cars Lincoln should make."
Wow, the question of the ages.... If I were Bill Ford, I would make Lincoln a prestigious Legacy brand. Lincoln would build only 6 models.
A BMW 5 series sized sedan, RWD of course, much like the current LS, only styled better.
A BMW 7 series sized sedan, RWD of course, and powerful, with all the bells, whistles and toys.
A Coupe, that is a hot rod, but isn't a swashbuckler, a real handler.
I'm ok with continuing the Mark LT. It's a functional truck, but really nice and it's profitable.
The Crossover SUV type Aviator replacement, but needs to be super high-tech, with stuff no other cars have yet.
And, the Navigator. I don't care what the rappers say, the Navigator is, and always was, superior to the Caddie in engineering, style, interior quality and features. There is no comparison on those levels. ONly in raw horsepower is the Caddie superior. But unless you tow a house, the Navigator has plenty. I've owned both. The Navigator is better, hands down.
Lincoln cars should emulate BMW, but at a more affordable price. They should all be powerful, distinctive from the Fords they may resemble by engines, options, features, toys and quality of materials. No chintzy stuff, like prop rods for the hood. The dashes should be fancy, the instrumentation state of the art.
Would this lineup sell? Don't know....I would like it, I'd buy it. I'm very comfortable with Lincoln as my car brand, if the product excites me. I don't see why they need a Lincoln as small as the Zephyr. The great thing about the LS is that it resembled NO Ford in production. It made LIncoln different and distinctive. That's not possible probably, if Lincoln wants to stay out of the Cadillac chase, but they could still make affordable luxury cars with prestige.
The old lineup for Lincoln was the LS for performance minded drivers, the Continental for women mostly, who thought the Town Car was too big, but wanted a nice luxury car. And the Continental had the whiz-bang stuff on it. Plus, it was FWD for those who needed the traction. The Town Car used to be the Gold Standard for large luxury, even though it was far less complex than the Continental, and the Mark 8 was the sport Coupe for those who wanted to be an "old sport". The Mark really performed, it was very fast, had style and grace, and was fun to drive, for a big heavy Coupe, unlike the Eldorado, which was just a 2 door Deville. Then the Navigator was born and created the luxury SUV in America. It was a good lineup. Good cars that offered something really, for everyone. It should have been nurtured and tweaked and kept fresh, instead of dying a miserable death from neglect.
"IMO Ford has no interest in Lincoln any more. Why not let Lincoln die with dignity and let Mercury fill in the slack. Just like General Motor's "move up as you get older/wealthier" divisions just don't work anymore for them, it's not working for Ford either."
So it would seem. Lincoln is becoming a Mercury, and Lincoln-Mercury may become the brand for that division in the future. I could be driving a Lincoln-Mercury Navigator. I say, either make Lincoln something to drive, or just let it die and merge into Mercury, or call Mercurys Lincolns and lets move on. Perhaps there isn't a place for LIncoln anymore, sadly, I feel like that at the moment.
"The MKX is going to redefine the crossover market.
The MKZ is going to be a 330ix for $10k less...and 45 more hp."
But, mschmal, what about the MKS? That's the only thing other than the Navigator that I have an interest in. Lincoln was built on being big, luxurious, prestigious. The Zephyr, MKZ, whatever, is an insult, IMO. Ok, 45 more hp is fine, but it'll still have the prop rod, making it such a Ford, and honestly, I don't even respect a prop rod on a Ford. But on a Lincoln? Someone should get the chair for that.
"This car still has a place in the retail market. Of course, the Town Car is marketed to an older customer. This does present the problem of the market dying off. That will be the death of the Town Car."
You know, everybody says that, but they seem to forget that along with old customers dying off, more of them are made EVERY DAY!! There will always be an endless supply of "old customers", they don't disappear from the face of the planet. So, the secret, is to cater to that crowd, giving them exactly the "retirement car" that they want. For decades, the Town Car worked very well for them. Cadillac made the mistake of dropping their Brougham, and many many Cadillac owners bought Town Cars. I know probably 10. The Town Car should continue in some form, updated to be sure but not dumped in favor of something younger people want, that should be offered as well, like the LS did. Old folks like big, comfortable, quiet and stately cars, not edgy rockets.
"I can't imagine anyone would want a Taurus after seeing the new Fusion. Well, maybe the diehard pennypinchers would still want the Taurus,"
If I'm not mistaken, the Taurus is no longer for sale at dealerships, only to fleets. And the Fusion is not being sold heavily to fleets as of yet, though I've seen some as rentals. Same with the 500. I personally wish they would just kill the Taurus - it has no brand equity anymore, it's sort of an embarrassment to Ford now, the Fusion and 500 are soo much better.
"No thanks - maybe General Motors will have something by then."
Something like the Panther? Never, my friend, that workhorse design is gone forever. If you want that kind of durability, you have to get a truck (not a ridgeline, either) or a truck based SUV in any other brand.
At the Washington D.C. autoshow last year, the 500 display had attendance levels more appropriate for a sportscar...and plenty of them were babyboomers. I think you're spot on...now if Ford could just offer some better engines... :shades:
Just because someone hits a certain age does not mean that they will want a certain type of car.
Nor will they necessarily want what the previous generation of senior citizens wanted.
If that were the case, Packard would not only still be in business, it would be setting sales records.
It's quite a stretch to believe that the most youth-obsessed generation in history - a generation that has made plastic surgery so acceptable that people now brag about having it done - will suddenly start buying cars that have been labeled as the preferred ride of senior citizens.
The number of people over the age of 60 has been increasing every year, and they are wealthier than ever before.
But despite this larger pool of potential customers, Buick and Lincoln sales have gone DOWN dramatically, and Cadillac sales were headed in the same direction, until the division abruptly changed direction with the Escalade and CTS, both of which were aimed at a much younger crowd.
I do agree that something like the Five Hundred could appeal to aging baby boomers, but the Ford brand doesn't carry the image of an "old person's car."
Remember that right across from the Five Hundred are the Mustang and the Focus, which appeal to younger people.
...they are going to freshen the 500's look and drop in the new 3.5L engine.
I'm not saying older people want boring cars, but I think they do want cars that are roomy, comfortable, and easy to get in and out of. The 500 is all that.
I saw my first law enforcement car brought to us by the good folks at DaimlerChrysler. A black Dodge Charger. I have to admit – it makes for a pretty intimidating looking sheriff’s car. Having kicked the tires, slammed the doors, and fiddled w/ the interior bits and pieces of a Charger, I don’t think it’ll hold up, though.
My impression of the Impala is that they were a little plain, but fairly sturdy and well built. Probably the toughest FWD car I know of save perhaps an Avalon.....
I open the hood on my two cars at least once per week to check the oil level and oil appearance, the coolant level in the bottles, and the trans oil level.
> its it's time for you to get a more reliable car.
Both my cars are dependable- Buick LeSabres, thank you. Perhaps if more people opened their hoods and checked the basics for maintenance they wouldn't have so many horror stories to kvetch about to blame the car for reliability problems in the past, no matter which car brand they are hating for letting them down.
If my car starts using coolant slowly, I'll know it instead of finding I'm low on I-75 between Dayton and Cincy; if my car starts using oil I'll know it instead of finding low oil level light comes on in the middle of a trip; if my tranny developes a leak, I'll know it instead of finding the trans is overheated or not shifting right in the middle of the bad part of a city, e.g., or the middle of the rural interstate or country highway!
I dare say, most of us on this site are interested enough in the power modules of our cars to open the hoods from time to time. And in this state, full service gas stations are non-existent, so as imidazio says, if you want to monitor your engine's condition, somebody has to do it between oil changes..... :surprise:
HELLO????? :confuse: You don't EVER check your oil, windshield washer water, coolant, power steering fluid, brake fluid, hoses, belts, air filter???? My goodness the list goes on! GEEESH!!!! I suppose you you don't open the trunk lid (where applicable) and check to see if your spare tire is ok either? It's people like you that keeps mechanics in busy...not to mention rich!!
...for most people is: No. Personally, I only pop the hood to put in windshield washer fluid or to change the battery. I wouldn't attempt to deal with brake fluid - it's pretty nasty stuff - or power steering fluid. It's worth $20 to me to have someone else change my oil. AAA will come change a tire for me. And if anything, I'm probably slightly more knowledgable about car maintenance than the average person (scary but true). Generally speaking, modern cars are way too complicated to DIY, unless you have a lot of time on your hands.
Every couple weeks I check under the hood - I do it every time before I drive the fintail. And as I suspect lemko does, I usually also wipe any grime I can reach off the engine and engine bay as well. Preventative maintenance...sooner or later it will be a problem.
Sorta with the topic, I really dislike how more and more cars feature covers over the engines. You open the hood, and all there is a big plastic lump with a nameplate and some filler holes for fluids.
I guess maybe people really don't really like looking at their engines anymore ( )...and I guess it does make it easier to "clean" under the engine bay...all you do is wipe off the cover...
"I really dislike how more and more cars feature covers over the engines."
The engine covers serve 3 purposes; First, to dress up the engine bay, and yes, you can make them look clean easily on the lot, secondly, they prevent tinkering, and encourage you by intimidation to take them back to the dealer. Lastly, they quiet down the engine, so you'll see them more on your high end cars, than you will on your Fords or Toyotas..... Although, Lincoln quit using them on the Town Car, because they could save a buck, and figured no self-respecting Town Car owner would EVER look under there anyway.....
Until they make the engine a 'sealed' unit much like many suspension joints (and some trannys I think) the driver needs access under the hood - even just for periodic inspection - so covers and other crap in the way does not help. Just the other day I am looking around in my Volvo to see if the coolant leak is simply a hose or something more serious - difference is fix my self or tow to repair shop.
Agree most modern engine bays are not aesthetic and many people don't care too much about what they look like.
On another point, I have a 62 Etype and the engine bay is the most beautiful part of the car - and little plastic to be found. But alas, they don't make them like this anymore, so maybe closed hoods and plastic covers are the future.
My fintail is the same way - almost no plastic, all metal. It's not concours-clean as it is an unrestored car, but I care for it. All the plumbing in the mechanical FI is pretty interesting.
The C43 has a big engine cover, which I am afraid to remove as the parts that hold it in place seem easy to break. So I just clean it and anywhere else I can reach. It's fairly spotless.
to save money. I have mixed feelings about it. But I'm sure if I were to keep a car a long time, and have to check for leaks and belts and stuff myself, I would not be pleased with my Lexus under the hood. Honestly, it took me months and the owner's manual to even find the radiator cap or the coolant bottle.
Brake fluid power steering fluid "nasty stuff"? I would think the battery would be more nasty considering you dealing with CAUSTIC ACID! I pay 20 bucks to have the oil changed too only because it's why go to the bother when you can it done for mere 20 bucks?.... besides who was talking about changing anything, it's just checking fluids.
$20 gets you Dino oil with a base filter installed by ?
Mobil 1, a high quality filter, and I do the job accurately on three cars and a boat. No spills or leaks. Brake fluid, coolant, and battery is checked and topped off if needed.
During the Winter, the boat battery is being charged regularly with the charger. No danger in topping off all the batteries with distilled H2O.
I wash and wax them as well. Winterize my own boat too.
But, mow the lawn? That's hired out, however, I don't mind chasing the vacuum & mop after cleaning the windows.
I used to be just like you euphonium, (interesting tag there)... Serviced and washed all of my cars, because I didn't trust anybody else. Age, time and leasing cars kind of changed me, because I would get 1-4 years free oil changes at the dealer. I discovered hand car washes, and started using them. Today, I don't do anything on my cars but drive them. I even hire out the waxing, twice a year. But that doesn't mean I'm less passionate about my "horses". I keep them up very very well. Anyone who gets one of my trades is buying a sweet car.
My mechanic uses Penzoil. I have to admit I have idea what oil filter he uses...will ask on next oil change. Not familiar with Mobil 1, should I change to that? Have the detailing done. Only because of time issues I have it detailed. Hire out lawn care too and don't mind cleaning house myself.
I understand. It's no fun to be as old as you may be, but I'm still only 73!
Ownership commands a higher and more intensive degree of care than a rental. Never rented a car for more than a couple of days.
Always bought used (cash) until I was 47 and saved to pay cash for my first (new) Continental with the Town Car option in 1980. I wouldn't know how to fill out a loan application thanks to a working wife.
"Ownership commands a higher and more intensive degree of care than a rental. Never rented a car for more than a couple of days."
I assume, euphonium, you're speaking about leasing? I can make a case for it, but this probably isn't the forum. However, I will say the Ford Red Carpet Lease can be a pretty good deal from time to time. LIke the time I "rented" my 99 Navigator for $400 a month, for 4 years.... Tough to beat that. Had I bought it outright, the payment would have been $811.06 per month, for 5 years.
So, for $400 a month, I got a super nice truck, totally under warranty, not that it needed the warranty, it was the best vehicle I've ever had. Total cost for 4 years of worry free driving? $19,200.
I know, I could drive for less, but it's worth $5,000 a year for the convenience and luxury. I lose about that in depreciation a year anyway. :P
Depressing article, although I think it overstates GM's recovery and prospects.
Featured in the story is the paragraph, to contrast the prospects of GM with those of Ford:
"GM took that step last year when it introduced its SUVs earlier than it had planned and invited a few journalists into its top secret styling studios to look at future models to be unveiled over the next few years. That added confidence, and GM's "buzz" among car writers has been more positive since, industry sources note."
From what I've read on other sites, many of those new GM models have either been watered down or completely cancelled. I had heard that the next-generation Malibu, for example, was supposed to be stunning, but the spy shots I've seen of the 2008 update show a car that is nice, but not outstanding. If the stunning model is delayed until 2010 or 2011...well, that is a long time in the car business.
Ford is in a flux right now. Mr. Fields did good things at Mazda...I just hope he has the freedom to repeat them at Ford.
One thing the company has to stop doing is taking the path of least resistance (no doubt advocated by the bean counters). Not bringing over the next-generation Focus was stupid, and almost shows contempt for Ford's American customers.
The Focus sells now because of higher fuel prices. But if fuel prices decline or even level off...will they still buy a Focus?
For the Honda Civic, the answer is "yes," because it has attributes beyond good fuel economy. Ford needs a small car like that.
And one other thing - Ford, put more sound-deadening in your cars! Our Focus is very noisy, and I've heard others complain about noise levels in the Five Hundred. What happened to the company that built a family car that was "quieter than a Rolls Royce?" This is not acceptable...it reeks of cheapness in this competitive market.
I agree, grbeck - that article seemed a little pro-GM, not altogether a bad thing, they could use a boost. But it seems a tad skewed. For example, Ford has been selling very few 500s into fleets so far, while Chevy has been dumping Impalas into every rental fleet they can find, so .......
"Quieter than a Rolls Royce" - didn't think you were old enough to remember that, grbeck. I am, because my Dad bought a 66 LTD, which I interited in 71. It was pretty quiet, but I'm guessing Rolls Royce wasn't all that quiet back then?
Comments
For overall fleet it comes in at 20th place (just cars - no trucks). I hadn't realized that fleet sales were so high now.
The fleet numbers for many of the domestic models are really sad. Ford does have an interesting thing going on with the Crown Vic, though. It is the only vehicle for which half its sales are to the government. No other car is even close. In fact, almost half of government car purchases are Crown Vics.
As a younger man, I watched the Domestic Auto Industry systematically abdicate the tough, large, RWD market over to Ford, as first Iacocca shut down all RWD cars at Chrysler other than Trucks, and then GM buried their Impala and Cadillac Brougham cars, leaving Ford the entire country's municipal and livery markets to themselves! I just couldn't believe it!
Since then, Ford has built the Panther Platform cars, (Crown Vic, Grand Marquis and Town Car) more each year with Fleet and Livery in mind. They have strengthened the platform stiffness by more than double, beefed up the suspension with the Watts rear linkage, and ball joints that could handle curb jumping with no mis-alignment. The cooling system is over-engineered and the transmission is bullet proof, albeit an old 4 speed auto. Tried and true.
That's great, if you want a domestic tank.
For those of us who believed the 97 Town Car was the high water mark for Lincoln, we have found that attention to the moving parts inside the glass have been de-emphasized more each year. The Air Conditioning is cold, but lacks sufficient volume to quickly cool the car. The Seats have become less and less comfy to the point of resembling the bench seat of a 53 Apache pick up. The dash and instrumentation, once ergonomically efficient and high-tech, with digital instrumentation, etc., and adjustable options for steering effort and other niceties, are ALL gone. The dash now resembles my 62 Galaxie in complexity and information, let alone options. Oh, with one exception.... The one thing missing all these years from the Panther cars was a Tachometer. VITAL when you're a blue-haired retiree driving from your chateau to the Country Club. Well, now they have one. Nice kick, Bill.
I hear the venerable Crown Vic will be around at least through 07. If Ford kills it in favor of a yellow or black and white version of the 500, they're fools. As long as they own the limo, taxi & police market, why would you change that? Especially when your product is so good, and you have a fully depreciated platform that is a cash cow at about any price? There are other issues - CAFE plays a part and technology eventually moves on and we just get tired of a car.... Meanwhile, few if any Crown Vics are now for sale on your Ford lot. Grand Marquis are a staple, and for a good price too, at your L/M lot. Town Cars are a disgrace to the Lincoln badge, other than their rather stately exterior appearance....
This is clearly the worst of times at Ford. I hated what Nasser did to the company - but I hate what Bill is doing, with the possible exception of the Mustang and large Truck line worse. I've driven Lincolns for 16 years - but other than the Navigator, they have nothing left for me.
Sorry for length of the rant. I feel better now. :mad:
Hey the Fusion is selling alright. Ford needs a new Focus compact car. I actually have a little confidence in Ford right now.
"I hear the venerable Crown Vic will be around at least through 07. If Ford kills it in favor of a yellow or black and white version of the 500, they're fools."
"There are other issues - CAFE plays a part and technology eventually moves on and we just get tired of a car...."
Yeah there are other issue such as redesigns as well. I mean Ford can;t keep the Crown Vic and Town Car in its current exterior design forever. Is is it going to be worthed for Ford to redesign the Crown Vic and Town Car just for the gonvernment services and Fortune 500 executive crowd?
Ford has to also judge if the Crown Vic is profitbale enough for them to keep on selling to police and taxi services because it doesn't sell at retail at all. If its not profitable than what the use of keeping it(the Crown Vic.)
"Town Cars are a disgrace to the Lincoln badge, other than their rather stately exterior appearance...."
Well the white collar executives at big companies get shuttled around in Town Cars. Other than that reason I don't see why the Town Car is even in Lincoln's line-up. The car retail wise has no place in today;s market. Again Ford is going to have to decide at some time is the Town Car profitable for us just to sell to limo services alone?
"I've driven Lincolns for 16 years - but other than the Navigator, they have nothing left for me."
I want to know what your opinion on what kind of cars Lincoln should make. I mean you I know you don;t like the Zephyr. The only beef I have with Linclon is while Caddy and Acura were making improvements to their line-up over the past few years Lincoln stood around and let their car line-up just go stale. The last noteworthy Lincoln car before the Zephyr was the LS which was released for the 2000 model year. I mean 6 years of doing nothing. I mean in the luxury car game you have to keep up with your product. Lincoln just stood around and let their market pass by them and sales of the Lincoln brand have declined significantly over the past few years. I hope Lincoln just doesn't let the current Zephyr sit and go stale like they did with the LS and ax it(the Zephyr.)
IMO Ford should keep the CV as is for sale to police and taxi only and the GM, which still has a strong market (so what that it's the more mature crowd at least they are still buying and makes a profit).
"Town Cars are a disgrace to the Lincoln badge, other than their rather stately exterior appearance...."
You got that right I think it's needs to be dropped and the GM needs a full tilt fully loaded version...perhaps A GM Brougham?...to take it's place. I think the TC buyers would follow.
IMO Ford has no interest in Lincoln any more. Why not let Lincoln die with dignity and let Mercury fill in the slack. Just like General Motor's "move up as you get older/wealthier" divisions just don't work anymore for them, it's not working for Ford either.
Up market styling and features.
The MKX is going to redefine the crossover market.
The MKZ is going to be a 330ix for $10k less...and 45 more hp.
Mark
I couldn't agree more. However Honda and Toyota aren't ignoring or messing up Lincoln (like Ford is).
This car still has a place in the retail market. Of course, the Town Car is marketed to an older customer. This does present the problem of the market dying off. That will be the death of the Town Car. Though, the Town car doesn't offer as many of the technological goodies as some of the competitors, it more than makes up for it in design, style, comfort, and dependability. The Town Car is one of the finest luxury sedans on the market and a bargain at any price.
The Fusion is one of the best-looking family sedans on the market right now, and miles ahead of the Malibu and G6 (both inside and out).
Suprisingly, Ford didn't have the new Expedition on display yet. I thought it was supposed to be out soon.
It will be interesting to see the facelifted Five Hundred. At least Ford isn't waiting 5-7 years to address two of the car's shortcomings - dull styling and a lackluster engine.
The Panther is the only durable car they sell - once it is gone, it will be nothing but rebadged foreign designed unibody fwd crackerboxes. I guess Ford realizes most new car buyers buy for style first, and everything else second.
No thanks - maybe General Motors will have something by then.
Wow, the question of the ages.... If I were Bill Ford, I would make Lincoln a prestigious Legacy brand. Lincoln would build only 6 models.
A BMW 5 series sized sedan, RWD of course, much like the current LS, only styled better.
A BMW 7 series sized sedan, RWD of course, and powerful, with all the bells, whistles and toys.
A Coupe, that is a hot rod, but isn't a swashbuckler, a real handler.
I'm ok with continuing the Mark LT. It's a functional truck, but really nice and it's profitable.
The Crossover SUV type Aviator replacement, but needs to be super high-tech, with stuff no other cars have yet.
And, the Navigator. I don't care what the rappers say, the Navigator is, and always was, superior to the Caddie in engineering, style, interior quality and features. There is no comparison on those levels. ONly in raw horsepower is the Caddie superior. But unless you tow a house, the Navigator has plenty. I've owned both. The Navigator is better, hands down.
Lincoln cars should emulate BMW, but at a more affordable price. They should all be powerful, distinctive from the Fords they may resemble by engines, options, features, toys and quality of materials. No chintzy stuff, like prop rods for the hood. The dashes should be fancy, the instrumentation state of the art.
Would this lineup sell? Don't know....I would like it, I'd buy it. I'm very comfortable with Lincoln as my car brand, if the product excites me. I don't see why they need a Lincoln as small as the Zephyr. The great thing about the LS is that it resembled NO Ford in production. It made LIncoln different and distinctive. That's not possible probably, if Lincoln wants to stay out of the Cadillac chase, but they could still make affordable luxury cars with prestige.
The old lineup for Lincoln was the LS for performance minded drivers, the Continental for women mostly, who thought the Town Car was too big, but wanted a nice luxury car. And the Continental had the whiz-bang stuff on it. Plus, it was FWD for those who needed the traction. The Town Car used to be the Gold Standard for large luxury, even though it was far less complex than the Continental, and the Mark 8 was the sport Coupe for those who wanted to be an "old sport". The Mark really performed, it was very fast, had style and grace, and was fun to drive, for a big heavy Coupe, unlike the Eldorado, which was just a 2 door Deville. Then the Navigator was born and created the luxury SUV in America. It was a good lineup. Good cars that offered something really, for everyone. It should have been nurtured and tweaked and kept fresh, instead of dying a miserable death from neglect.
So it would seem. Lincoln is becoming a Mercury, and Lincoln-Mercury may become the brand for that division in the future. I could be driving a Lincoln-Mercury Navigator. I say, either make Lincoln something to drive, or just let it die and merge into Mercury, or call Mercurys Lincolns and lets move on. Perhaps there isn't a place for LIncoln anymore, sadly, I feel like that at the moment.
The MKZ is going to be a 330ix for $10k less...and 45 more hp."
But, mschmal, what about the MKS? That's the only thing other than the Navigator that I have an interest in. Lincoln was built on being big, luxurious, prestigious. The Zephyr, MKZ, whatever, is an insult, IMO. Ok, 45 more hp is fine, but it'll still have the prop rod, making it such a Ford, and honestly, I don't even respect a prop rod on a Ford. But on a Lincoln? Someone should get the chair for that.
So, is there gonna be a MKS? :mad:
You know, everybody says that, but they seem to forget that along with old customers dying off, more of them are made EVERY DAY!! There will always be an endless supply of "old customers", they don't disappear from the face of the planet. So, the secret, is to cater to that crowd, giving them exactly the "retirement car" that they want. For decades, the Town Car worked very well for them. Cadillac made the mistake of dropping their Brougham, and many many Cadillac owners bought Town Cars. I know probably 10. The Town Car should continue in some form, updated to be sure but not dumped in favor of something younger people want, that should be offered as well, like the LS did. Old folks like big, comfortable, quiet and stately cars, not edgy rockets.
Old folks are made every single day.
If I'm not mistaken, the Taurus is no longer for sale at dealerships, only to fleets. And the Fusion is not being sold heavily to fleets as of yet, though I've seen some as rentals. Same with the 500. I personally wish they would just kill the Taurus - it has no brand equity anymore, it's sort of an embarrassment to Ford now, the Fusion and 500 are soo much better.
Something like the Panther? Never, my friend, that workhorse design is gone forever. If you want that kind of durability, you have to get a truck (not a ridgeline, either) or a truck based SUV in any other brand.
And some of those insisting that only certain models today are 'worth driving' will be buying those older buyer cars in 20 years!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Nor will they necessarily want what the previous generation of senior citizens wanted.
If that were the case, Packard would not only still be in business, it would be setting sales records.
It's quite a stretch to believe that the most youth-obsessed generation in history - a generation that has made plastic surgery so acceptable that people now brag about having it done - will suddenly start buying cars that have been labeled as the preferred ride of senior citizens.
The number of people over the age of 60 has been increasing every year, and they are wealthier than ever before.
But despite this larger pool of potential customers, Buick and Lincoln sales have gone DOWN dramatically, and Cadillac sales were headed in the same direction, until the division abruptly changed direction with the Escalade and CTS, both of which were aimed at a much younger crowd.
I do agree that something like the Five Hundred could appeal to aging baby boomers, but the Ford brand doesn't carry the image of an "old person's car."
Remember that right across from the Five Hundred are the Mustang and the Focus, which appeal to younger people.
I'm not saying older people want boring cars, but I think they do want cars that are roomy, comfortable, and easy to get in and out of. The 500 is all that.
I don't see this as a negative at all. I sell cars and I don't open the hoods. No one cares! (except for Mustang buyers).
If you have to regularly open your engine hood, its time for you to get a more reliable car.
Mark.
The hood on my 94 Town Car is opened every second gas fill.
The hood on my 95 T Bird is opened every second gas fill.
During the Winter, the Windshield Washer bucket is filled frequently.
None of the above have prop rods and they are very reliable cars.
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itsit's time for you to get a more reliable car.Both my cars are dependable- Buick LeSabres, thank you. Perhaps if more people opened their hoods and checked the basics for maintenance they wouldn't have so many horror stories to kvetch about to blame the car for reliability problems in the past, no matter which car brand they are hating for letting them down.
If my car starts using coolant slowly, I'll know it instead of finding I'm low on I-75 between Dayton and Cincy; if my car starts using oil I'll know it instead of finding low oil level light comes on in the middle of a trip; if my tranny developes a leak, I'll know it instead of finding the trans is overheated or not shifting right in the middle of the bad part of a city, e.g., or the middle of the rural interstate or country highway!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I guess maybe people really don't really like looking at their engines anymore (
The engine covers serve 3 purposes; First, to dress up the engine bay, and yes, you can make them look clean easily on the lot, secondly, they prevent tinkering, and encourage you by intimidation to take them back to the dealer. Lastly, they quiet down the engine, so you'll see them more on your high end cars, than you will on your Fords or Toyotas..... Although, Lincoln quit using them on the Town Car, because they could save a buck, and figured no self-respecting Town Car owner would EVER look under there anyway.....
Agree most modern engine bays are not aesthetic and many people don't care too much about what they look like.
On another point, I have a 62 Etype and the engine bay is the most beautiful part of the car - and little plastic to be found. But alas, they don't make them like this anymore, so maybe closed hoods and plastic covers are the future.
The C43 has a big engine cover, which I am afraid to remove as the parts that hold it in place seem easy to break. So I just clean it and anywhere else I can reach. It's fairly spotless.
Mobil 1, a high quality filter, and I do the job accurately on three cars and a boat. No spills or leaks. Brake fluid, coolant, and battery is checked and topped off if needed.
During the Winter, the boat battery is being charged regularly with the charger. No danger in topping off all the batteries with distilled H2O.
I wash and wax them as well. Winterize my own boat too.
But, mow the lawn? That's hired out, however, I don't mind chasing the vacuum & mop after cleaning the windows.
Ownership commands a higher and more intensive degree of care than a rental. Never rented a car for more than a couple of days.
Always bought used (cash) until I was 47 and saved to pay cash for my first (new) Continental with the Town Car option in 1980. I wouldn't know how to fill out a loan application thanks to a working wife.
I assume, euphonium, you're speaking about leasing? I can make a case for it, but this probably isn't the forum. However, I will say the Ford Red Carpet Lease can be a pretty good deal from time to time. LIke the time I "rented" my 99 Navigator for $400 a month, for 4 years.... Tough to beat that. Had I bought it outright, the payment would have been $811.06 per month, for 5 years.
So, for $400 a month, I got a super nice truck, totally under warranty, not that it needed the warranty, it was the best vehicle I've ever had. Total cost for 4 years of worry free driving? $19,200.
I know, I could drive for less, but it's worth $5,000 a year for the convenience and luxury. I lose about that in depreciation a year anyway. :P
Featured in the story is the paragraph, to contrast the prospects of GM with those of Ford:
"GM took that step last year when it introduced its SUVs earlier than it had planned and invited a few journalists into its top secret styling studios to look at future models to be unveiled over the next few years. That added confidence, and GM's "buzz" among car writers has been more positive since, industry sources note."
From what I've read on other sites, many of those new GM models have either been watered down or completely cancelled. I had heard that the next-generation Malibu, for example, was supposed to be stunning, but the spy shots I've seen of the 2008 update show a car that is nice, but not outstanding. If the stunning model is delayed until 2010 or 2011...well, that is a long time in the car business.
Ford is in a flux right now. Mr. Fields did good things at Mazda...I just hope he has the freedom to repeat them at Ford.
One thing the company has to stop doing is taking the path of least resistance (no doubt advocated by the bean counters). Not bringing over the next-generation Focus was stupid, and almost shows contempt for Ford's American customers.
The Focus sells now because of higher fuel prices. But if fuel prices decline or even level off...will they still buy a Focus?
For the Honda Civic, the answer is "yes," because it has attributes beyond good fuel economy. Ford needs a small car like that.
And one other thing - Ford, put more sound-deadening in your cars! Our Focus is very noisy, and I've heard others complain about noise levels in the Five Hundred. What happened to the company that built a family car that was "quieter than a Rolls Royce?" This is not acceptable...it reeks of cheapness in this competitive market.
"Quieter than a Rolls Royce" - didn't think you were old enough to remember that, grbeck. I am, because my Dad bought a 66 LTD, which I interited in 71. It was pretty quiet, but I'm guessing Rolls Royce wasn't all that quiet back then?