2007 Ford Edge

mschmal

I think some bean counter prolly forced them to put too small of a tire on the vehicle. Poor braking and skidpad are the result. Will let you guys know what tires are on the production vehicles as soon as they arrive.

Mark.

lateralg

The "A" in my MSAE is "Automotive".

The question is finally answered, I think, when you say "Sliding off the track" Tire grip.

akirby

The 17" tires are Hankooks while the 18" tires are Continentals. I assume they tested the 18" wheel and tire package. Tire grip makes a huge difference in skidpad numbers.

lateralg

IMO, the suggestion that skidpad results on an Edge are important makes as much sense as rating a Corvette on its passenger-carrying capacity.

akirby

C&D tested a Ferrari Testarossa against a pickup truck. The pickup won for beer keg capacity.

coldcranker

lateralg,
I thought skidpad testing techniques were almost universally known. I'm glad you figured it out. And if you think the skidpad isn't important, then it would be best if you didn't encounter emergency evasive manuever conditions.

akirby

Skidpad tests only show the limits of lateral grip, not how the vehicle would react in an emergency maneuver. The better test for that is the slalom. And the point isn't to have the fastest time or highest G rating on either test - it's whether the vehicle can be controlled while performing the maneuver and that's where the RSC comes in.

High slalom and skidpad numbers are desirable in a sports car. Not so much in a high CG SUV/CUV.

pnewby

Thanks for the clarification, I was getting confused. All I see on the Freestyle forum is how Ford messed up by not having RSC, and over here about the skid pad numbers not being high enough with the RSC. Did the testers turn it off? If not why did it not activate? If so, why would they turn off such a great safety feature? I thought it was supposed to be so much better than a vehicle without it.
:confuse:

akirby

Any type of stability control can reduce performance test results because in order to get the fastest times or highest skidpad numbers you have to drive a vehicle on the edge and keep it there. RSC or ESC won't let you get to that edge and will normally intervene earlier than that. Stability control is definitely a safety advantage - more so on a sports car or high CG vehicle than a family sedan. But it requires 4 channel ABS so that each wheel can be braked individually which the Fusion doesn't have right now (3 channel). That should be fixed next year.

frizz2112

These discussions always degrade into religious arguments once the real testing doesn't come back as positive as the faithful would want. The same people who are making excuses for the Edge's faults would be singing the praises of the test results had they come back with more favorable numbers. If you like the car then that's fine, but it just sounds stupid to say things like "skidpad numbers don't matter." With the 500 it was "who needs more than 203 horsepower anyway?" and it sounded just as silly.

The fact is these tests do matter, and they reflect actual real world uses of the vehicle. You can talk all day long about what the average person will use on a car, but if the competition is offering something more for the same or less money, then it often doesn't matter much how useful an item is, as people want as much car for the money as they can get.

I will withhold my final judgement on the Edge until I get to drive one, but I have to say I'm disappointed in the early test results on this vehicle. All we heard about for months were the amazing driving dynamics and acceleration, superior to the Murano, etc, but it seems this vehicle might have some serious flaws. For me the weight of the Edge is a potential deal breaker, as this effects so many other things (mileage, handling, braking, etc.) When you think about why people are moving from SUV's to CUV's, it's generally because they want better mileage and a car like ride. If the Edge misses the boat on these features, what's the point?

One more thing: When are we going to see the results of the "3x increase in spending on interior design" from Ford? Aside from the F-150, Ford's interiors still seem to be average at best, and often below average as far as quality of materials is concerned. The Edge seems no different. My father has a 500, and while it seems to be well built, the interior is incredibly bland and cheap looking/ feeling. I mean really, how long does it take to figure this out? I've been a Ford fan for a long time, and I'm tired of hearing that the next car is really going to be the one that sets them apart, only to see the same old mistakes being made over and over. I really hope the Edge is better than the initial tests indicate, but I can't say I'm expecting it.

akirby

You can't honestly think any Edge buyers are going to be doing WOT 0-60 runs or skidpad like cornering - do you? How is that "real world"? You don't see anyone testing the towing limits of a Z4 or track times on a F150 supercrew dualie, do you?

Braking, fuel economy, ride comfort and fuel mileage are all much more relevant for a CUV buyer than skidpads and 0-60 runs. So far braking performance is questionable but we need to see tests on production vehicles before jumping to any conclusions. And the fuel mileage isn't stellar, either, but it's not going to be 15 mpg as MT reported.

Most buyers don't read car magazines. They go by styling, price, EPA fuel mileage and how it drives.

lateralg

Right on, Allen!

mschmal

I agree that the 500 is a pretty big disappointment. But look at the fusion. A fully loaded Fusion SEL AWD without have is under $28,000 MSRP!

I also sell Nissan's the equiv. 07 Altima has an MSRP of $29,500. Also the Nissan does not offer AWD which in my mind is not made up for by the "Intellignet Key" or Bluetooth which are not available on the Fusion.

The interior on the Altima is more expensive, there are cloth inserts on the doors, there is an electroluminescent gauge cluster; however, the design is not superior.

That being said, would you pay $2,500 more (Fusion has $1,000 in rebate) to GIVEUP AWD and get intelligent key and bluetooth?

I think the Edge is the same verse the Murano, you get more expensive materials for the higher price but the design and execution is no better.

Mark,

frizz2112

OK, use your imagination a little here. Sure, most Edge buyers won't be timing their 0-60 runs, but I'll bet most of them will occasionally be accelerating up an on ramp or passing someone on a two lane road, which are both real world examples of a car's ability to accelerate, which is measured by 0-60 times and other tests. Same with the skidpad. I've never driven my cars on a skidpad, but I have driven them down my rural road, where there's a tricky hill/ curve combination that sneaks up on you; take it too fast and you're in the woods. Cars with better skidpad numbers are going to be able to handle this curve better than cars with lower ones. If someone drives an Edge versus a competitor, and the competitor feels more connected to the road (which would be reflected in the handling tests like the skidpad) then that's a plus for the competitor. Even average non enthusiast car buyers notice this stuff.

You may think it's stupid to test cars like the Edge in 0-60, etc, but those tests tell you a lot about how the car is going to work in real life. Otherwise, why would the people who work at these magazines, who live and breathe this stuff, bother with them? You think they do this just to be mean to Ford or to all non performance vehicles? I agree that most car buyers don't read magazines, but those things they test in the magazines do translate into real world performance, or as you put it, "how it drives."

As I said, I'll wait until I drive one to make any final judgments, but I've never seen a car get criticized as much as the Edge has before it's released, and then have the production version come out a month later and prove all the early tests wrong.

stever

Occasionally you'll find posts around here where people are bugged by the 0 to 60 numbers. For example, I like a bit of torque off the line, since 90% of my driving is on the surface streets in town, so a 0-30 number would be a better benchmark for me.

Those who spend a lot of time on the freeway or narrow two lanes may prefer to get an idea of how the passing gear works, so a 30 - 60 number or similar could be more useful to them. There aren't any light controlled ramps around here so usually I'm already going 30+ before I have to think about hammering it for a merge.

Then there are those already going 60 on the long curving on-ramps who need to worry about the skid pad numbers more than the 0-60 times. :shades:

lateralg

My problem with the magazine writers is that they have a boiler-plate test routine they apply to all vehicles they test ... regardless of the intended market.

If they have 0-60 test for CSUV's, then they should have a test for Corvettes that assesses the car's ability to keep a teenager from killing himself. There are several other attributes that belong in one vehicle category & not another.

These people are stuck in the 1950's when Tom Mc Cahill created the 0-60 metric. The advancement of the cars has far outpaced the advancement in the mentality of the car testers. Time for them to grow up and move forward.

akirby

I'm not objecting to the tests, but in the examples you gave there isn't any real difference whether the Edge goes 0-60 in 7.0 or 8.0 seconds. It either has adequate acceleration or it doesn't.

People like to use these test results to do paper comparisons an declare one car a winner over the other when in reality the differences may not matter in the real world.

The problem with the Edge MT review is that other reviewers have said things that were contradictory, and almost all the reviews were done with a pre-production prototype.

markan

I hate to break the trend here because I am learning a lot from all of you so thanks for that. I keep reading about the Murano as the competition for the Edge but nothing about the new Rav4 V6. In looking over the specs I can find, the Rav4 V6 looks like real competition since it is now a slightly larger vehicle than the old design. Am I missing something?

explorerx4

the 'edge' tests are still with a pre-production vehicle, as far as i know. i will hold judgement until more real world posts are made.
read the bmw 335 article on the main edmunds page.

how about this?

coldcranker

lateralg,
The tests are run so we can compare vehicles using the same tests. And all tests are relevant, as frizz pointed out. Frizz is right. We all understand that an Edge won't out-skidpad a corvette, but we want to know how the Edge stacks up against the Murano, its closest competitor, for example. So far, the Murano is able to provide a similar CUV package with better numbers, period. If CUV owners never used the brakes or turned, then lateralg and others above would be right.

coldcranker

akirby,
Think "competitive" numbers. Better numbers are indeed on sports cars, but competitive with similar high-cg, similar-sized vechicles is what we want. In that regard, my Freestyle outperforms the Edge in turning performance, and that shouldn't be.

akirby

The question is relevancy. What good does it do to excel in a test that represents something that would never happen?

Braking is relevant - you might actually need to do a panic stop from 60. And if the 0-60 numbers were in the 9's instead of the 7's then it might be worth noting. But measuring a high-cg vehicle with some off road capability on a paved skidpad just isn't relevant unless you're just doing a paper comparison.

stever

Edmunds wants to compare the Edge to the Pilot, Endeavor, XL-7 and Highlander, as well as the Murano that's been kicked around the most in here. Not sure why the RAV4 isn't on the comparison radar - maybe it's not big enough (although the Murano looks small to me).

Here's the Edmunds "Have you considered" page.

bobw3

With CUVs & SUVs some with 3 rows and some with 2 rows, it's hard to make a simple comparison, but I'd think the Pilot is more traditional SUV and with 3 rows should be compared to the Explorer, and the RAV4 compares more closely to the Escape.

akirby

What we're seeing is Crossover/Crossovers. Small/Medium SUVs with 3rd row seating and Medium/Large SUVs with 2 row seating.

I'm coming out of an Aviator w/3rd row (and an Expedition before that) and have found that the occasions when we need that 3rd row are few and far between, even with kids. The Edge/MKX seem perfect although we'll probably look at a CR-V, CX-7/9 and RX350 for comparison.

markan

After riding in both and driving the Escape, the RAV4 is more car-like in ride and handling than the Escape. I'd call the Escape a small SUV and the new RAV4 and Edge a mid-size CUV. May be splitting hairs but I'm assuming the Edge will ride much better than the Escape and the new RAV4 seems to be in the same class.

pnewby

All this talk about auto test numbers has me wondering why- Why don't you try one for your self? The 500/Freestyle has been called underpowered so many times I can't count them, but after 28k miles of both highway and city driving, I have the 1st time to feel like my AWD CVT Freestyle is underpowered. In either situation, it keeps up with any thing that comes up. I have seen so much deviation of test numbers from one test to the next, that I rarely believe any of them. The only tests I take seriously are the NHTSA and IIA(?) crash numbers. It appears they are closely enough controlled to actually be meaningful. BTW, the Freestyle replaced a '00 LS V8, and the "measly" 252hp it was rated would outrun anything short of a Vette on the road.

bobw3

I own a Freestyle, have over 40K miles, and I agree completely. I think there's an initial prejudice on the Freestyle/500 based on 203hp for the weight of these cars, plus the CVT doesn't give you the initial jolt of forward motion like a regular automatic. But when a reviewer calls it underpowered, but then lists the Freestyle with 0-60 times on par with other vehicles that are not considered underpowered, you wonder what their definition of underpowered really is, and I think it's just the perception of the tester when they're behind the wheel, and again, I think that the CVT lack of jolting you forward when you press the gas from a stop is the reason why. I guess if you try to tow a boat up the Rockies with 7 200lb passengers, their luggage, and a roof rack full of stuff, then maybe the Freestyle is underpowered for that! But on my list of priorities for buying a car, power is way down on the list because I think 99% of new cars being sold today have sufficient power, so the slight differences between them are meaningless to me.

mschmal

For anyone out there with a Freestyle or Five Hundred CVT, you can drop the CVT immediately into "passing gear" by flooring the gas pedal which engages a button under the accelerator. The car is designed to be floored for max power. The electronic throttle will not let you "hurt" the drive train.

Most sales people never explain this to customers.

Mark.

mschmal

The 1994 Mazda 626 was MT's car of the year with a mere 160hp. my first car, 1980 Chevy Monza (ick!) had 98 hp from a 2.5L i4 borrowed from a tractor.

A 1995 Mustang GT has 215hp from a 4.6L V8. My 2007 Mustang V6 has 210 hp. from a 4.0L v6.

My point, Drive it and decide for yourself.
How much HP does a person really need?

Plenty of people seem satisfied enough with the 160ish HP in a Honda CR-V that Honda still doesn't bother with a V6 in this CUV even after the RAV4 gets one.

Mark.

mschmal

Ford is completely repositioning the Escape from an "entry level" SUV to a destination vehicle, For 08 previously unavailable equipment such as climate control will be offered.

However, Ford is taking great pains to make sure that people regard the Escape as a real SUV and not as a CUV.

Ford does not have a small "recreational" type SUV such as Jeep, Nissan, Toyota, and to some extent Honda offer (element).

The goal at Ford is to meet divergent expectations of different customers in a vastly more Fragmented Auto market.

Remember, the record for most units of any auto model sold in a single year was set in 1964 with the Chevy Impala.

More and more, people do NOT want to drive what their neighbor drives, what the friends drive, what their family drives.

Edge and Escape are aimed at 2 very different kinds of people.

I just hope that the 2008 Escape is "tough" enough to attract the outdoor enthusiast buyer in a market that also includes the Xterra, the CJ Cruiser, the new 4 door Wrangler, the Element.

Mark.

bobw3

That's sort of the same with automatics too, in that flooring the gas will immediately downshift the automatic, or down the gearing in a CVT. I think most people know that stomping the gas will give you max power, but I've never found it necessary to floor it in the Freestyle.

bobw3

I think the Escape is still Ford's entry level small SUV, even with automatic climate control. More and more "economy" cars are coming with standard features that were once only found on luxury cars.

akirby

He just means that they'll be selling the Escape based on features and capabilities instead of trying to market it on price. We'll see the same thing with the new Focus when the B car arrives in a few years.

Smaller volume, more features, better quality, more profit. More platform sharing but with more differentation in appearance (no shared body panels including doors and rooflines). Works for me.

frizz2112

I agree that people should drive the cars they are interested in and decide for themselves, but here's another reason HP numbers are relevant: If it comes down to two cars that are nearly equal in your mind, and one has 203 HP and the other 270 with similar mileage, wouldn't you go from the 270 HP vehicle? People may not "need" the extra power, but when buying vehicles people are thinking "What am I getting for my money?" An extra 67 horsepower for the same money makes one car a better deal than the other.

coldcranker

frizz,
The extra HP is usually paid for by lower MPG. In the case of the Edge, the subject of this Forum thread, the extra HP and weight above, say, a Freestyle, means less MPG, unfortunately. Interestingly, I've noticed the Avalon seems to be the highest MPG, highest HP combo you can get, as its rated at 268 HP in a sa-weet V6 with 22/31 city/hiway MPG. They do it with a low friction, high compression V6. The Freestyle does well with high MPG for a large vehicle (I get 27 MPG in that vehicle). Notice the Avalon has an engine of about the same HP as the Edge, and both the Freestyle and Edge would benefit (MPG increase) by using that engine.

bobw3

If it comes down to two cars that are nearly equal in your mind, and one has 203 HP and the other 270 with similar mileage, wouldn't you go from the 270 HP vehicle?

Yes...but in my car buying experience, I've never got to the point where I've found two nearly equal vehicles whose only difference was hp difference. Differences of interior space, compfort, quality, safety, price, quality, ride, handling, MPG, etc...where all compared, but hp never entered the equation for me.

mschmal

All Fords products will blue ovals on them run on regular. Even the Ford GT Supercar, the Shelby GT500, and the Mustang GT.

That could be an additional $200 a year in your pocket, instead of Exxon/Mobiles.

That said, the Avalon fuel econ isn't that special.

Mark.

frizz2112

Obviously my hypothetical was not perfect, since no two cars are exactly alike, but you get the point. More for the same money is going to sway buyers whether they need the stuff or not.

Yeah, I had the Avalon in mind when I made that comparison. It manages better mileage and better power and a lot more drivetrain refinement than the 500, albeit at a somewhat higher price (worth every cent IMO.) We'll see how much the new Ford 3.5 changes that.

Anyway, it just seems to me that people root for cars like sports teams, and get a wee bit irrational in defending their team sometimes. I mean, if 4 magazines say the same thing about a car, isn't there a good chance it might just be true?

bobw3

All Fords products will blue ovals on them run on regular. Even the Ford GT Supercar, the Shelby GT500, and the Mustang GT.

That could be an additional $200 a year in your pocket, instead of Exxon/Mobiles.

But if the the car taking premium gas gets 2mpg better mileage, then that covers the extra cost of needing premium.

sranger

Ok, I have NEVER hear anyone say:

"My car is too fast."

"My car handles too good."

"My car stops too quick."

You can cry all you want when your pet car does not stack up to it's competition, but in the end, better test number = a better and more importantly a more enjoyable car... PERIOD!!!

Can any of you say with a straight face that if you put the new 3.5L V6 and 6 speed trans in the 2008 Ford Escape it would not be a run away hit?????

Due to the fact that it is several hundred pounds lighter, it would be a blast to drive ( like the V6 Rav4 ) and have all of the right features. ( I have a 2005 V6 Mariner )

The WHOLE point of a CUV is to be fun to drive....

Come on, we are Americans: A lot of HP is good, more hp is better, too much is just right....

bobw3

I'm not sure if you were responding to my post or not, but like I said, if I had two cars in front of me equal in every way except for HP, then sure I'd go for the one with the greater HP, but HP is just one of many variables when comparing vehicles.

And actually the whole point to CUVs is that people are realizing that they don't need to drive SUVs because they're not going off-road or towing boats. In fact, all they really need is a station wagon version of the Ford Fusion for example...hey wait, that's called the Edge, but for marketing reasons they give them new names, since americans won't buy station wagons or hatchbacks, so they market them as CUVs or 5doors!

mschmal

Come on, Ford would never make such an obvious brilliant move.

Mark

frizz2112

I think we all agree that HP is just one of many variables, and we shouldn't get too hung up on that one example. But when you can point to a half dozen such examples in a car and people are shooting each one down with excuses like "who takes their car around a skidpad" and "who measures their 0-60 times anyway?" things start to sound silly.

I agree that the whole purpose of the CUV segment is to try and offer some of the advantages of an SUV (utility, ride height, appearance etc.) without some of the disadvantages (truck like ride, weight, mileage etc.) To that end I'm disappointed in the Edge. It seems to be saddled with most of the disadvantages of a traditional SUV without the off road and towing capability. And please, don't tell me to wait until the production versions are out, because they're not going to suddenly change to an all aluminum structure overnight and save 700lbs.

I think the Edge looks great, and the overall packaging is strong. It's also got a good engine and transmission. Unfortunately it seems like it's going to be like the 500 and to a certain extent the Fusion, where people will be saying "but just wait until the '09 freshening" before these things have been on the lot for a month. I'll still go and drive one, and who knows, I may be surprised. Maybe Ford will get lucky and the Edge will turn out to be the modern version of the original Explorer; never winning any comparison tests, but killing everything on the sales charts. No, I'm not holding my breath either...

pnewby

No matter what the HP, Skid rating or whatever is, I still only buy what "feels" right to me. In each case I have compared how it "feels" when I test drive, and in each case I have ended up with the one I like the best. The only rating I ever use is from both the Feds and the Insurance Inst. I will only buy vehicles with the highest safety rating. BTW- I currently have an '06 Explorer and '05 Freestyle. They replaced an '02 Explorer and an '00 LS, all of which were/are rated at the top of their respective classes.

porciniman

Hey guys, I just canceled my Edge and purchased a 2006 Explorer Limited!! Black on Black.

$4,000 cash back!!!!!

V8, DVD player, audiophile sound system (290 watts w/subwoofer),
18 in wheels, dual climate controls, heated leather seats, saftey package...etc.

Total cost...$30,500 delivered!

Yesterday,after my dealer got off the phone with Ford, he told me, that even though my Edge is built, Edge delivery is on hold...probably 'til the end of the year.
After 4 months of waiting, I gave up on ever seeing my Edge this year!

Way to go Ford!!!

antoninb

Yesterday,after my dealer got off the phone with Ford, he told me, that even though my Edge is built, Edge delivery is on hold...probably 'til the end of the year.
After 4 months of waiting, I gave up on ever seeing my Edge this year!

Way to go Ford!!!

I've read similar things on fordedgeforum.com - that we're probably looking at January for delivery to dealers. If true, VERY sad. I know that there's been problems at the factory, including senior management changes, but this isn't looking good. And I agree that I'd rather have a well-built vehicle than one that winds up at the dealer a week after I pick it up.

I get to wait until August anyway (for expiration of current lease), but Hyundai Santa Fe or Veracruz are starting to look like a good option.

sranger

Don't blame you a bit, the Explorers are a GREAT buy right now....

rbaugh

Could it be?

link title

stever

Could be. :shades:

Ford ships Edge, MKX (Straightline)