What do you think, why has America been the most advanced country technologically for the last 80 years or so? Is it because our mechanics and assembly line workers can swing their wrenches 10 times as fast as those in Japan, China or Europe? ... ...
At the core, it is very simple: Our engineers and scientists have come up with NEW things that the others did not know how to do. If you are the first with a new idea/concept/product, you can charge a huge premium. 80 years ago, cars and other mchinery were such new products. By now, many others have learned how to make these things. (Foreigners are not stupid you know, even if we start out with an advantage they will eventually catch up one way or the other.) Now, if these foreign countries can do the same things as us, how do think our standard of living will remain higher as theirs???
The only way to stay ahead is CHANGE. We again have to come up with NEW things (and we do, just look at software and the internet); and if the others are catching up, we have to find NEWER things still. Isn't this what America has always being good at???
CHANGE is good and resisting change will inevitably lead to decline. Just look at the history of civilations. The Greek, the Romans, the Spanish empire, all made irrelevant by more innovative societies. If you close your doors, you probably can pretend that nothing has changed for a few years but not for long - the others will NOT stand still.
At the core, it is very simple: Our engineers and scientists have come up with NEW things that the others did not know how to do. If you are the first with a new idea/concept/product, you can charge a huge premium. ***** Outsourcing combined with the fact that China has predatory practices(ie - they steal everyone's ideas) - they is no ability to charge a premium anymore.
I heard a radio segment a few months ago about how the textile and clothing manufacturers in Europe were being squeezed to death by Middle-Eastern and South-East-Asian countries. It was pretty much what you'd expect. The second part, though, was the eye-opener. It was a followup showing how these same smaller countries from Eastern Europe, SE Asia, and so on were getting pillaged by the Chinese.
The most common tactic was they would pose as manufacturing partners - but they would take the samples or just stop dealing with you after a few weeks. Then 2 weeks later, your exact clothes, just with a "Made in China" label on them would show up in the department stores for half the price. The person(was in India in the interview), calculated that they would have to be getting virtually free labor and shipping to make even a few pennies profit on each item. If this isn't "dumping"... Well, who cares? (Wal)China-Mart is having a sale on jeans! Never mind the child and prison labor or the contempt their government has for basic human rights and freedoms. All is good if we can save $2!
So your new invention? If you so much as call someone in China about it, they'll be making it in a month, unless it's too unwieldy or too expensive and cumbersome to replicate. Economic advantage gone. Profits gone. Recourse? You wish.
There are tens of thousands of people employed by their government to conduct industrial and economic espionage. Military and communication and financial espionage is also sponsored and/or ignored(same difference) by their government as well.
Now, all countries do these things. Just... we LET China in and give them our house keys? Our government is focused on their "war on terror", whatever that is this month, like some semi-religous crusade, and they fail to see that there is a real problem with China.
Edit - Just imagine the following - China has 30-40% of our economy. They decide to take over a country or say, just flatten Taiwan. Um... Correct. We do nothing because they have control over our economy. Heaven help us if North Korea and China go at it again. We'll be powerless to do anything.
So, yes, it actually CAN cost us and our allies lives in the future. Too bad it's going to be the working guy who takes all of the damage.
Outsourcing combined with the fact that China has predatory practices(ie - they steal everyone's ideas) - they is no ability to charge a premium anymore.
I'm sorry, but that's totally false for non-commodity products, such as cars. The value in a brand is its ability to deliver a given set of qualities reliably and consistently, and good brands create higher prices. If a Chinese company entered the US market attempting to beat the 3-series, it would be slaughtered.
Unlike Renault, Peugeot, Yugo, Daihatsu, FIAT, MG, Triumph, etc. etc. etc., they will need to prove themselves in the low-end market with reliable, reasonably designed cars before they can expect to gain consumer trust and long-term market share. Absolutely no assurances that they will, and if they are like others such as Hyundai, I suspect that it will take them years, if not decades, to get it right.
The most common tactic was they would pose as manufacturing partners - but they would take the samples or just stop dealing with you after a few weeks. Then 2 weeks later, your exact clothes, just with a "Made in China" label on them would show up in the department stores for half the price.
But this is exactly proving my point. Making textiles is something almost anybody can do nowadays. (Just remember when all of the South of the US lived off making cotton - Image we would have tried to hang on to this industry ...).
As an anvanced economy you have to produce something that others cannot copy in two weeks (or so). Making cars used to be such a field, but not anymore. If we cannot come up with a technology that the Chinese (or anybody else for that matter) cannot reproduce immediately, WHY SHOULD (economically spoken) our standard of living be be better than theirs?
The only way to stay ahead is CHANGE and INNOVATE. That is what America is all about, i.m.o.
So cars are one area where we still have a product that they can't outright copy.
So why isn't our government doing anything to protect our auto industry? If it dies off, the number of simmilar industries that can't be copied - well, it's less than a dozen as it is. Loosing any ground at this point is going to hurt us badly.
So why isn't our government doing anything to protect our auto industry?
What would you like the government to protect? And how do you define "our" auto industry? Does it GM, that builds over half of its cars abroad? Or Chrysler, headquartered in Germany? Or is it Toyota, Honda, etc., companies that actually are increasing US jobs rather than cutting them?
If the auto industry wants protection, it can find its best defense by building cars that people want. People don't like Camrys and Accords because of a lack of protection, but because the cars fulfill their needs better than those of their rivals.
So cars are one area where we still have a product that they can't outright copy.
But they can. The Japanese have learned to make cars (at least) as good as ours 20 years ago, the South Koreans are doing this step right now, and the Chinese will not be far behind.
As I said above, by artificially protecting our auto industry we COULD go on for a number of years pretending nothing has changed. But while we would be doing this, the others would continue to make better and better cars much cheaper than we could. We would loose all the remaining export markets to them (not that we have many for American made cars). Then, in 10 years we would wake up and wonder why we drive these crappy cars and still pay twice as much as anybody else in the world.
Just accept it: making cars is not how you can stay AHEAD of other countries economically.
...like Japan, Korea, China, and Germany actively invest in their auto industries and bend over backwards to help them out (health care, tax breaks, research grants). In the US, we say "tough luck, you guys stink". If these countries that the Right and Left coasters seem to admire so much think it's a good idea to help their auto industry out, why isn't it a good idea for the US?
OK, I wanted to "buy American" but here was my scenario. My daughter is turning 16. We needed a third car for a number of reasons, but the main one is for her. My deal with her is that this is "it". I am willing to buy her a state-of-the-art new small SUV but it has to last until she graduates from college and she can afford to replace it. My choices were the GM vehicles (Chevy what's it called, Saturn Vue), the Ford Escape or Japanese. Let's get real, folks. I bought the Honda CR-V because do you REALLY think a Ford Escape isn't gonna nickel and dime her to death after the 3 year warranty? C'mon...tell me truthfully...which would YOU invest in to last 10 years?
NO ONE listened to Ross Perot. Except 19% of voters; I was among them!
Who benefits from outsourcing? Big business!
What group (out of many) has Bush in their pocket? Big Business!
International trade is a business, and Bush has no history of starting, or running, a successful business!
He killed an oil company, in TEXAS! Rode the Texas Rangers into the ground, off of Saudi money! Wasted zillions in Iraq. And we're getting blown to bits on a trade imbalance, by multiple countries.
I second that. A recent high school grad was just killed and injured several others in her SUV in Dayton. They are not forgiving for rollover potential.
Whoa !!!!! Your a protectionist......I wished their were others that "could see" what's happening to our country.
gangreen, socala4,
guys is it fair when a U.S. company pumps sometimes in the hundreds of millions, if not billions into R&D on a new invention, and the chinese buy a copy and reverse engineer it and within a short period of time they got a similar product out on the shelves at Wally World or soon on a car lot. Guys you both are smart, and need to perhaps take a closer look at whats happening. China, is not inventing anything like the U.S. or Japan. They are stealing ideas that we've created. To say alot of folks won't buy a Chinese BMW alternative is simply foolish. You know if its anything close to the real thing that alot of ignorant folks will buy it based on price. Not just in the U.S. but around the world. I guess patents are a thing of the past because we aren't doing a darn thing to prevent this illegal behavior from happening.
Here's a real test for you both and/or to all:
If the Chinese builds a Chi-exus LS 460 for lets say $30,000 will you buy it vs. the $70K version ??????? :surprise:
drfill, Buddy those are great points or should I say facts. Now he wants us to give up our port Security to a known terroist government that harbored some of the 9/11 attackers. :mad:
I guess history will look back on Ross Perot as a genius who was misunderstood by some. Some Unions wanted to support him, but knew he wouldn't have a chance at getting elected. Instead they got backstabbed by Clinton, who allowed the NAFTA bill to get passed int law without a fight. I like Clinton, but I also hate him for this main reason.
Rocky
P.S. When is the U.S. ever going to get a president that actually cares about the people and it's american buisness's ????? :sick:
mirth: like Japan, Korea, China, and Germany actively invest in their auto industries and bend over backwards to help them out (health care, tax breaks, research grants).
Japanese, Korean and German auto makers are all moving production to lower cost locations, including the United States. Even Hyundai has opened a plant in the southern United States.
Germany has national health insurance and government pensions, but Mercedes, VW and Opel have all asked for concessions from their German workers.
For example, VW threatened to produce its new, less expensive SUV in Portugal unless the unions worked with it to reduce costs, because Germany is too expensive. Plus, most VWs sold in the United States are already sourced from VW's Mexican factories.
The "help" provided by their national governments isn't preventing Toyota, Honda, Mercedes, BMW, VW and Hyundai from moving more production to locations that are either less expensive or closer to large markets.
rockylee: P.S. When is the U.S. ever going to get a president that actually cares about the people and it's american buisness's ?????
If "caring about the people and american businesses" means preventing car buyers from purchasing superior products to protect inept management and spoiled union members, I hope that we never get a president like that.
"When is the U.S. ever going to get a president that actually cares about the people and it's american buisness's ?????"
Rocky, it will probably never happen. I don't think organized labor has the power it did 40 years ago.
In the 60's, labor leaders were always in the news - Jimmy Hoffa, George Meaney, Lane Kirkland, and the guy Miller who was the head of the mine workers. I am a fairly well-informed person, but I can't name a single labor leader. They aren't in the news anymore, probably because they don't have the power they once did.
In the 60's, it seemed like the unionized workers were always going on strike. I never hear about strikes these days.
If "caring about the people and american businesses" means preventing car buyers from purchasing superior products to protect inept management and spoiled union members, I hope that we never get a president like that.
grbeck, I hope you are brushing up on your asian languages. :P
We agree to disagree on the causes that have damaged the Big 3's ability to compete on a equal playing field.
Rocky
P.S. Whats a "superior" product that an American car company hasn't made yet ?????
It's not all about the union people wanting a equal playing field. It's also many small and large U.S. buisness's that are trying to compete with the child labor company's in China, Bangledesh, Vietnam, etc.
rockylee: grbeck, I hope you are brushing up on your asian languages.
Considering the eagerness of Asians to learn English, maybe that isn't a bad idea. Learning about new languages, and taking a more cosmopolitan view of the world certainly hasn't hurt, say, Honda.
Michigan hasn't been the center of the universe (let alone the automotive universe) for quite some time.
rockylee: P.S. Whats a "superior" product that an American car company hasn't made yet ?????
Still haven't seen an American car that consistently bests the Honda Civic and Toyota Corolla. The Ford Focus DID beat them at first, but Ford bungled it with a disastrous launch, and then let the car get old as the Civic and Corolla moved forward. GM still hasn't gotten it right.
Neither has GM or Ford come up with a product that beats the Accord, although the new Fusion comes close (and is better looking than the Accord).
In the small, car-based SUV segment, Ford did match the CR-V and RAV-4 with the Escape, but the company once again ruined its chances with a disastrous launch, and now the Escape has gotten old while the Toyota and Honda entries have moved forward.
The Mustang and Corvette are great cars, but they are niche vehicles, and certainly aren't going to singlehandedly save their parent companies.
>they got backstabbed by Clinton, who allowed the NAFTA bill
The schmoozers at the top of the Unions got schmoozed by t he great Arkansas schmoozers helped by Chicago political machine. That's what you mean to say.
OK, maybe a small SUV is not as safe as a Taurus for a teenager...or maybe it is. We can debate that, but you guys did not answer my question regarding quality and vehicle longevity. If you were going to bet $25,000 on a vehicle that would last 10 years...would you bet on Escape/Mariner-Equinox/Vue or Honda CR-V/Toyota RAV4? Hmmmm??? Seriously......
We can debate that, but you guys did not answer my question regarding quality and vehicle longevity
Given the choice, I would take the Pontiac Vibe (a clone of the Toyota Matrix) for the 32 mpg gas mileage and good reliability. And you can get it for a whole lot less than $25k. More like $16k.
Darn near any vehicle today other than Kias, Neons and some of the other problem models can last ten years. Longevity is more a function of REGULARLY SCHEDULED MAINTENANCE than make or model. That means that your child must drop the car off occasionally for oil changes and the like. (Of course, how many people ever actually KEEP a car for TEN years these days??)
I would agree with others that the small SUV is probably less safe than a sedan, but it is your child not mine.
If you were going to bet $25,000 on a vehicle that would last 10 years...would you bet on Escape/Mariner-Equinox/Vue or Honda CR-V/Toyota RAV4? Hmmmm??? Seriously......
Out of the choices I would pick the Toyota or Honda but maybe a better choice would be a Subaru Forester...IMO. They have great crash test scores, are affordable, and lower chance of rollovers.
I would do what a friend did. He found a 1992 190 Mercedes with 150K on it that had been maintained by the Mercedes dealer with full records and obvious good maintenance. He bought it for his daughter. On the way back he was hitting 100 mph on the interstate before he realized he had crept up so fast. His own Chevy pickup was behind him keeping up just fine.
I don't know what he paid. It came from two cities away--150 miles. It truly had been dealer maintained. When he looked in and saw a Mercedes Benz battery he was sure the guy was telling the truth about maintenance.
His adult daughter had her 933 porsche creamed so she thought this would be a good replacement. He's a mechanic so he's happy as can be. She had bought the Porsche when he was out of town a couple years ago.
A 1992 ANYTHING, even a Mercedes, is not going to have the latest safety features. The CR-V that we bought has everything...stability control, side curtain airbags, highest scores on the crash tests.
It's interesting that the answers here, so far, bear me out. NONE of you said you'd buy the GM or FORD product, but rather the Japanese product. Even the mentioned Pontiac Vibe is a NUMMI Toyota Matrix in a GM wrapper. I rest my case.
1999 was the last year for the big Benz. I had a '99 S320. Trust me, you DO NOT want to own one of those puppies out of warranty. Whatever you save on a "bargain price" will be eaten up and then some within a few months on repairs. They'll run 300,000 miles, but you'll be bankrupt before you get there. The last of the GOOD Benzes was the 1981-1991 "S" Class vehicles.
The key is to find a perfectly maintained one with all the known bugs worked out. Like I did with my 126, find one where the PO spent a fortune updating it. The HVAC components on those 140s are especially troublesome, along with an electric issue here and there, and wiring harnesses etc can need work too. But the replacements are usually superior and hold up better...so get one that's been worked over.
I'd run from any V12 car though, and don't believe their "maintenance free" transmissions.
Well, IIRC, they did make the S600 and S500 maybe until 1998 or 1999, but the idea is to get cheap as possible. I saw a mint condition 1997 S420 Long Wheelbase that was basically identical to a S500. $12K. 60K miles. Lots of these are out there because lots of elderly people bought these ten years ago and well, they get too old to drive around town anymore(or die - yeah, dead old people are a legitiamte source of good cars, too, as mercenary as it sounds)...
V12 - yeah bad news. Hardly any more power those years than the superb V8(which got ~25mpg highway IIRC - not too shabby). The V8? Probably the best engine on the planet at the time, or at least tied with the big Northstars. *edit* - 21-22mpg highway, though that's conservative - many people get a few mpg better with careful driving.
Yes, maintainence will cost you 50% more than a Toyota or Honda(all cars are really pricey to fix lately), but the thing is - other than the transmission and a few suspension issues, the rest is pretty straightforward. The doors, switches, and all of that - it lasts longer than any econobox. Plus it's big, safe, and has all the goodies. Oh, and leather, CD player...
So you spend $1000 a year maintaining it versus $500 on an econobox. The car by the time she ends college will still be a good car and worth maybe 6-8K. So it all works out in the end. $12K+4K in maintainence for 4 years, minus 4K in depreciation=8K to run for 4 years.(or keep forever - good cars nonetheless) or 12K(couple of year used econobox+2K in maintainence, minus 6K in depreciation... 8K either way.
Yes, the late 90s S class - it's not a tank like the late 80s models, but it's infinately better than the new plastic ones.
EDIT: "How much for a Big Body Benz "last year" S-600 Plekto ????? " http://www.edmunds.com/used/1999/mercedesbenz/sclass/index.html 17-20K retail, or about 14-16K private party - for the 420/500, which is the way to go. The 600 is just too much maintainence and not worth $25K, IMO. BTW - the 400/500 series is built much better than the 320 LWB was - 220-something HP also wasn't enoguh - the car needs a V8.
The 420 - 275HP The 500 - 302HP for 1mpg less. The 420, though, is much easier to find and haggle a fantastic price on. 90% of people can't tell 275 from 300HP, anyways.
1999 S420 $12,818 $14,919 $17,118(edmunds.com) At 7 years old anf 50-60K miles, it's going to look and smell like brand new, or just about. Suddenly that new Corolla is looking well, like a Corolla.
There is no way I'm puttin' any kid of mine in a Mercedes, especially a big one. Yeah, they may be safe (but not necessarily any safer than the CR-V with the latest safety devices), but there are other connotations to a kid driving that kind of car that sends the wrong message.
Maintenance/repairs will be WAY WAY WAY over $1000 per year. Heck, I spent that with my S320 UNDER WARRANTY and I was cheap about it...and avoided inflated dealer costs. I'll bet that car costs $3000 to $4000 per year, including expensive repairs that come up all the time...to own. Plus gas and normal maintenance. You are delusional if you think that car can be run cheap. Not to mention this is Pittsburgh...I went thru brake pads every 10,000 miles and rotors every other time (20,000 miles).
I had my 6cyl 126 for just about 4 years and spent maybe $1000 TOTAL for maintenance outside of oil changes, $300 of that in the EHA failure. I'm including brakes and shocks in that too. I did have a good cheapish independent to do work for me though. A standard 140 couldn't be a whole lot more, if the car was good to begin with. That's the key... If something as simple as oil changes have been scrimped, I would walk away.
And when time came to sell the 126, I had people lined up with interest.
Cars like these are why I can't justify buying a new normal car.
The 140 is a whole 'nuther animal than the 126. Trust me...there is no possible way period that you can run a 140 on the cheap. Zero. Why do you think resale value are so gawdawful? No one wants to own one out of warranty. Versus, for instance, a Lexus LS400/430 which rarely require any repairs. But I am not puttin' my kid on that either.
Getting back to topic...I find it interesting that for a 10 year vehicle, no one is able to defend American metal. Let's face it, in the real world, when people think 10 year vehicle, it's Toyota or Honda, period. The only exception might be Lincoln Town Car or Grand Marquis if you are over age 75 and looking for your last car. Interestingly, I saw a base Grand Marquis (new, 2006) stickered at $26,700 today...a great value if you can stand the ridicule of driving a Grand Marquis. And on the same dealer lot was a loaded Town car for $49,000...which will be worth $16,000 in 3 years. A terrible value. An interesting contrast on basically the same vehicle.
about 10 years on domestics, there might be a few reasonable choices. In addition to the aforementioned Town Car/Grand Marquis/Crown Vic, I don't think the Taurus/Sable was too bad by 1996. Biggest problems with the Taurus were the 3.8 V-6, which was dumped after 1995, and the earlier versions of the automatic overdrive tranny. I don't think the later ones are too bad, though. Just get the Duratech 3.0 and not the Vulcan.
Over at GM, I'd say any W- (Lumina, Regal, etc) or C/G/H body (LeSabre, Bonneville, Park Ave, etc) with the 3.8. Good, sturdy engine, although the supersharged models, I've heard, often need a new charger around 100,000 miles. The trannies were probably about as durable as a transverse 4-speed automatic can get.
The old A-bodies (Century/Ciera) were in their last year of production in 1996, and were pretty reliable by that time. I think the only downside is that by then they were running Chevy 3.1's instead of Buick 3.8's and 3.2's (or was it 3.3?)
And the RWD B-bodies were still around in 1996. The Roadmaster, Caprice/Impala SS, and Fleetwood are every bit the equal of a Ford Panther when it comes to durability. And better performers with the LT-1 350.
And any domestic truck, Ford Mopar or GM, from that era shouldn't be too bad, although the 4-speed overdrive trannies they were using by then weren't as rugged as the sturdy, simple old Torqueflites, THM350's, or C-6es (or whatever Ford called their bigger automatic)
If I were singling out a 10-year old vehicle though, I'd look more for one that looked well-maintained and was in good shape, moreso than focusing on any particular brand.
No no no no no! I am talking about buying a vehicle TODAY that will last 10 YEARS INTO THE FUTURE! A 1996 Caprice doesn't do me any good! I mentioned the Panther cars because you can still buy them, new, today.
Bottom line is that my point is that in the real world, if you really want something where the odds are it will last 10 years (FROM TODAY to 2016) with mimium repairs, you pretty much have to go ToyHon. That's why they own the market and GM/Ford are dying or at least about to shrink dramatically.
Bottom line is that my point is that in the real world, if you really want something where the odds are it will last 10 years (FROM TODAY to 2016) with mimium repairs, you pretty much have to go ToyHon.
I was comparing the repair record of my Olds Ciera with my friend's Toyota Camry. Over the past six years, we have paid about the same amount in repairs and maintenance. We have had one or two small unusual repairs and the usual tires, batteries, shocks, oil changes, etc. I spend more on tires as I replace my tires every three years as I drive in a lot more snow than he does.
What is critical - and I give Honda some credit for emphasizing REGULARLY SCHEDULED MAINTENANCE - is that you have to do the routine maintenance religiously.
From my fleet experience, I have had few problems with Intrepids/Taurus/Bonnevilles that most of my drivers choose. I had one electrical problem with the Lexus RX330 at 40k. And innumerable problems with Volvos and Saabs.
Thanx Guys....I'm just lookin' for some knowlede on what to spend so I can join the fintail, plekto, gangstas :shades: J/K
Bottom Line: If one of you could find a nice premo benz Black, (Like Princess Di's toomb) that is the right styalr and under $20K would be a good deal, leemee know please
Comments
I wonder if the Chinese can machine decent guillotine blades? I'll sure we'll be importing them as well when the time comes.
Do you have the post number for the link to teh Mercedes Chinese ripoff? I had seen that in some forum but couldn't find it.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
... ...
At the core, it is very simple: Our engineers and scientists have come up with NEW things that the others did not know how to do. If you are the first with a new idea/concept/product, you can charge a huge premium. 80 years ago, cars and other mchinery were such new products. By now, many others have learned how to make these things.
(Foreigners are not stupid you know, even if we start out with an advantage they will eventually catch up one way or the other.) Now, if these foreign countries can do the same things as us, how do think our standard of living will remain higher as theirs???
The only way to stay ahead is CHANGE. We again have to come up with NEW things (and we do, just look at software and the internet); and if the others are catching up, we have to find NEWER things still. Isn't this what America has always being good at???
CHANGE is good and resisting change will inevitably lead to decline. Just look at the history of civilations. The Greek, the Romans, the Spanish empire, all made irrelevant by more innovative societies. If you close your doors, you probably can pretend that nothing has changed for a few years but not for long - the others will NOT stand still.
under the Worst Cars forum thread 107
Rocky
Not to be funny pal, in all seriousness we don't always agree but "my god" that is well said pal !!!!!
100% Agree
Rocky
Rocky
*****
Outsourcing combined with the fact that China has predatory practices(ie - they steal everyone's ideas) - they is no ability to charge a premium anymore.
I heard a radio segment a few months ago about how the textile and clothing manufacturers in Europe were being squeezed to death by Middle-Eastern and South-East-Asian countries. It was pretty much what you'd expect. The second part, though, was the eye-opener. It was a followup showing how these same smaller countries from Eastern Europe, SE Asia, and so on were getting pillaged by the Chinese.
The most common tactic was they would pose as manufacturing partners - but they would take the samples or just stop dealing with you after a few weeks. Then 2 weeks later, your exact clothes, just with a "Made in China" label on them would show up in the department stores for half the price. The person(was in India in the interview), calculated that they would have to be getting virtually free labor and shipping to make even a few pennies profit on each item. If this isn't "dumping"... Well, who cares? (Wal)China-Mart is having a sale on jeans! Never mind the child and prison labor or the contempt their government has for basic human rights and freedoms. All is good if we can save $2!
So your new invention? If you so much as call someone in China about it, they'll be making it in a month, unless it's too unwieldy or too expensive and cumbersome to replicate. Economic advantage gone. Profits gone. Recourse? You wish.
There are tens of thousands of people employed by their government to conduct industrial and economic espionage. Military and communication and financial espionage is also sponsored and/or ignored(same difference) by their government as well.
Now, all countries do these things. Just... we LET China in and give them our house keys? Our government is focused on their "war on terror", whatever that is this month, like some semi-religous crusade, and they fail to see that there is a real problem with China.
Edit - Just imagine the following - China has 30-40% of our economy. They decide to take over a country or say, just flatten Taiwan. Um... Correct. We do nothing because they have control over our economy. Heaven help us if North Korea and China go at it again. We'll be powerless to do anything.
So, yes, it actually CAN cost us and our allies lives in the future. Too bad it's going to be the working guy who takes all of the damage.
I'm sorry, but that's totally false for non-commodity products, such as cars. The value in a brand is its ability to deliver a given set of qualities reliably and consistently, and good brands create higher prices. If a Chinese company entered the US market attempting to beat the 3-series, it would be slaughtered.
Unlike Renault, Peugeot, Yugo, Daihatsu, FIAT, MG, Triumph, etc. etc. etc., they will need to prove themselves in the low-end market with reliable, reasonably designed cars before they can expect to gain consumer trust and long-term market share. Absolutely no assurances that they will, and if they are like others such as Hyundai, I suspect that it will take them years, if not decades, to get it right.
But this is exactly proving my point. Making textiles is something almost anybody can do nowadays. (Just remember when all of the South of the US lived off making cotton - Image we would have tried to hang on to this industry ...).
As an anvanced economy you have to produce something that others cannot copy in two weeks (or so). Making cars used to be such a field, but not anymore. If we cannot come up with a technology that the Chinese (or anybody else for that matter) cannot reproduce immediately, WHY SHOULD (economically spoken) our standard of living be be better than theirs?
The only way to stay ahead is CHANGE and INNOVATE. That is
what America is all about, i.m.o.
So why isn't our government doing anything to protect our auto industry? If it dies off, the number of simmilar industries that can't be copied - well, it's less than a dozen as it is. Loosing any ground at this point is going to hurt us badly.
What would you like the government to protect? And how do you define "our" auto industry? Does it GM, that builds over half of its cars abroad? Or Chrysler, headquartered in Germany? Or is it Toyota, Honda, etc., companies that actually are increasing US jobs rather than cutting them?
If the auto industry wants protection, it can find its best defense by building cars that people want. People don't like Camrys and Accords because of a lack of protection, but because the cars fulfill their needs better than those of their rivals.
But they can. The Japanese have learned to make cars (at least) as good as ours 20 years ago, the South Koreans are doing this step right now, and the Chinese will not be far behind.
As I said above, by artificially protecting our auto industry we COULD go on for a number of years pretending nothing has changed. But while we would be doing this, the others would continue to make better and better cars much cheaper than we could. We would loose all the remaining export markets to them (not that we have many for American made cars).
Then, in 10 years we would wake up and wonder why we drive these crappy cars and still pay twice as much as anybody else in the world.
Just accept it: making cars is not how you can stay AHEAD of other countries economically.
Who benefits from outsourcing? Big business!
What group (out of many) has Bush in their pocket? Big Business!
International trade is a business, and Bush has no history of starting, or running, a successful business!
He killed an oil company, in TEXAS! Rode the Texas Rangers into the ground, off of Saudi money! Wasted zillions in Iraq. And we're getting blown to bits on a trade imbalance, by multiple countries.
We asked for it! Now we've got to deal with it.
DrFill
Get your daughter a sedan - Taurus, Accord, Impala, Camry.
You might want to look at the photos and guestbook in this very sad website. It is about a girl who was killed near our house last August.
http://www.legacy.com/WashingtonPost/Guestbook.asp?Page=Guestbook&PersonID=14865- - 086
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Whoa !!!!! Your a protectionist......I wished their were others that "could see" what's happening to our country.
gangreen, socala4,
guys is it fair when a U.S. company pumps sometimes in the hundreds of millions, if not billions into R&D on a new invention, and the chinese buy a copy and reverse engineer it and within a short period of time they got a similar product out on the shelves at Wally World or soon on a car lot. Guys you both are smart, and need to perhaps take a closer look at whats happening. China, is not inventing anything like the U.S. or Japan. They are stealing ideas that we've created. To say alot of folks won't buy a Chinese BMW alternative is simply foolish. You know if its anything close to the real thing that alot of ignorant folks will buy it based on price. Not just in the U.S. but around the world. I guess patents are a thing of the past because we aren't doing a darn thing to prevent this illegal behavior from happening.
Here's a real test for you both and/or to all:
If the Chinese builds a Chi-exus LS 460 for lets say $30,000 will you buy it vs. the $70K version ??????? :surprise:
Rocky
I guess history will look back on Ross Perot as a genius who was misunderstood by some. Some Unions wanted to support him, but knew he wouldn't have a chance at getting elected. Instead they got backstabbed by Clinton, who allowed the NAFTA bill to get passed int law without a fight. I like Clinton, but I also hate him for this main reason.
Rocky
P.S. When is the U.S. ever going to get a president that actually cares about the people and it's american buisness's ????? :sick:
Japanese, Korean and German auto makers are all moving production to lower cost locations, including the United States. Even Hyundai has opened a plant in the southern United States.
Germany has national health insurance and government pensions, but Mercedes, VW and Opel have all asked for concessions from their German workers.
For example, VW threatened to produce its new, less expensive SUV in Portugal unless the unions worked with it to reduce costs, because Germany is too expensive. Plus, most VWs sold in the United States are already sourced from VW's Mexican factories.
The "help" provided by their national governments isn't preventing Toyota, Honda, Mercedes, BMW, VW and Hyundai from moving more production to locations that are either less expensive or closer to large markets.
If "caring about the people and american businesses" means preventing car buyers from purchasing superior products to protect inept management and spoiled union members, I hope that we never get a president like that.
Rocky, it will probably never happen. I don't think organized labor has the power it did 40 years ago.
In the 60's, labor leaders were always in the news - Jimmy Hoffa, George Meaney, Lane Kirkland, and the guy Miller who was the head of the mine workers. I am a fairly well-informed person, but I can't name a single labor leader. They aren't in the news anymore, probably because they don't have the power they once did.
In the 60's, it seemed like the unionized workers were always going on strike. I never hear about strikes these days.
grbeck, I hope you are brushing up on your asian languages. :P
We agree to disagree on the causes that have damaged the Big 3's ability to compete on a equal playing field.
Rocky
P.S. Whats a "superior" product that an American car company hasn't made yet ?????
Rocky
Rocky
Considering the eagerness of Asians to learn English, maybe that isn't a bad idea. Learning about new languages, and taking a more cosmopolitan view of the world certainly hasn't hurt, say, Honda.
Michigan hasn't been the center of the universe (let alone the automotive universe) for quite some time.
rockylee: P.S. Whats a "superior" product that an American car company hasn't made yet ?????
Still haven't seen an American car that consistently bests the Honda Civic and Toyota Corolla. The Ford Focus DID beat them at first, but Ford bungled it with a disastrous launch, and then let the car get old as the Civic and Corolla moved forward. GM still hasn't gotten it right.
Neither has GM or Ford come up with a product that beats the Accord, although the new Fusion comes close (and is better looking than the Accord).
In the small, car-based SUV segment, Ford did match the CR-V and RAV-4 with the Escape, but the company once again ruined its chances with a disastrous launch, and now the Escape has gotten old while the Toyota and Honda entries have moved forward.
The Mustang and Corvette are great cars, but they are niche vehicles, and certainly aren't going to singlehandedly save their parent companies.
The schmoozers at the top of the Unions got schmoozed by t he great Arkansas schmoozers helped by Chicago political machine. That's what you mean to say.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Rocky
Given the choice, I would take the Pontiac Vibe (a clone of the Toyota Matrix) for the 32 mpg gas mileage and good reliability. And you can get it for a whole lot less than $25k. More like $16k.
Darn near any vehicle today other than Kias, Neons and some of the other problem models can last ten years. Longevity is more a function of REGULARLY SCHEDULED MAINTENANCE than make or model. That means that your child must drop the car off occasionally for oil changes and the like. (Of course, how many people ever actually KEEP a car for TEN years these days??)
I would agree with others that the small SUV is probably less safe than a sedan, but it is your child not mine.
Out of the choices I would pick the Toyota or Honda but maybe a better choice would be a Subaru Forester...IMO. They have great crash test scores, are affordable, and lower chance of rollovers.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
His adult daughter had her 933 porsche creamed so she thought this would be a good replacement. He's a mechanic so he's happy as can be. She had bought the Porsche when he was out of town a couple years ago.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It's interesting that the answers here, so far, bear me out. NONE of you said you'd buy the GM or FORD product, but rather the Japanese product. Even the mentioned Pontiac Vibe is a NUMMI Toyota Matrix in a GM wrapper.
I rest my case.
But if one was being forced to buy a ne small SUV...it would be a CRV/RAV or maybe Subaru yeah.
I like youe Benz 43 AMG
Rocky
A:1997 Mercedes S500. Last of the big, square tanks. $15-$20K and worth every last dime.
How much for a Big Body Benz "last year" S-600 Plekto ?????
I love the old Big Body Benz. You are exactly right if you can find em' that cheap. They are worth every last dime.
I'd run from any V12 car though, and don't believe their "maintenance free" transmissions.
V12 - yeah bad news. Hardly any more power those years than the superb V8(which got ~25mpg highway IIRC - not too shabby). The V8? Probably the best engine on the planet at the time, or at least tied with the big Northstars.
*edit* - 21-22mpg highway, though that's conservative - many people get a few mpg better with careful driving.
Yes, maintainence will cost you 50% more than a Toyota or Honda(all cars are really pricey to fix lately), but the thing is - other than the transmission and a few suspension issues, the rest is pretty straightforward. The doors, switches, and all of that - it lasts longer than any econobox. Plus it's big, safe, and has all the goodies. Oh, and leather, CD player...
So you spend $1000 a year maintaining it versus $500 on an econobox. The car by the time she ends college will still be a good car and worth maybe 6-8K. So it all works out in the end. $12K+4K in maintainence for 4 years, minus 4K in depreciation=8K to run for 4 years.(or keep forever - good cars nonetheless) or 12K(couple of year used econobox+2K in maintainence, minus 6K in depreciation... 8K either way.
Yes, the late 90s S class - it's not a tank like the late 80s models, but it's infinately better than the new plastic ones.
EDIT:
"How much for a Big Body Benz "last year" S-600 Plekto ????? "
http://www.edmunds.com/used/1999/mercedesbenz/sclass/index.html
17-20K retail, or about 14-16K private party - for the 420/500, which is the way to go. The 600 is just too much maintainence and not worth $25K, IMO. BTW - the 400/500 series is built much better than the 320 LWB was - 220-something HP also wasn't enoguh - the car needs a V8.
The 420 - 275HP The 500 - 302HP for 1mpg less. The 420, though, is much easier to find and haggle a fantastic price on. 90% of people can't tell 275 from 300HP, anyways.
1999 S420
$12,818 $14,919 $17,118(edmunds.com)
At 7 years old anf 50-60K miles, it's going to look and smell like brand new, or just about. Suddenly that new Corolla is looking well, like a Corolla.
Maintenance/repairs will be WAY WAY WAY over $1000 per year. Heck, I spent that with my S320 UNDER WARRANTY and I was cheap about it...and avoided inflated dealer costs. I'll bet that car costs $3000 to $4000 per year, including expensive repairs that come up all the time...to own. Plus
gas and normal maintenance. You are delusional if you think that car can be run cheap. Not to mention this is Pittsburgh...I went thru brake pads every 10,000 miles and rotors every other time (20,000 miles).
And when time came to sell the 126, I had people lined up with interest.
Cars like these are why I can't justify buying a new normal car.
Getting back to topic...I find it interesting that for a 10 year vehicle, no one is able to defend American metal. Let's face it, in the real world, when people think 10 year vehicle, it's Toyota or Honda, period. The only exception might be Lincoln Town Car or Grand Marquis if you are over age 75 and looking for your last car. Interestingly, I saw a base Grand Marquis (new, 2006) stickered at $26,700 today...a great value if you can stand the ridicule of driving a Grand Marquis. And on the same dealer lot was a loaded Town car for $49,000...which will be worth $16,000 in 3 years. A terrible value. An interesting contrast on basically the same vehicle.
Over at GM, I'd say any W- (Lumina, Regal, etc) or C/G/H body (LeSabre, Bonneville, Park Ave, etc) with the 3.8. Good, sturdy engine, although the supersharged models, I've heard, often need a new charger around 100,000 miles. The trannies were probably about as durable as a transverse 4-speed automatic can get.
The old A-bodies (Century/Ciera) were in their last year of production in 1996, and were pretty reliable by that time. I think the only downside is that by then they were running Chevy 3.1's instead of Buick 3.8's and 3.2's (or was it 3.3?)
And the RWD B-bodies were still around in 1996. The Roadmaster, Caprice/Impala SS, and Fleetwood are every bit the equal of a Ford Panther when it comes to durability. And better performers with the LT-1 350.
And any domestic truck, Ford Mopar or GM, from that era shouldn't be too bad, although the 4-speed overdrive trannies they were using by then weren't as rugged as the sturdy, simple old Torqueflites, THM350's, or C-6es (or whatever Ford called their bigger automatic)
If I were singling out a 10-year old vehicle though, I'd look more for one that looked well-maintained and was in good shape, moreso than focusing on any particular brand.
Bottom line is that my point is that in the real world, if you really want something where the odds are it will last 10 years (FROM TODAY to 2016) with mimium repairs, you pretty much have to go ToyHon. That's why they own the market and GM/Ford are dying or at least about to shrink dramatically.
I was comparing the repair record of my Olds Ciera with my friend's Toyota Camry. Over the past six years, we have paid about the same amount in repairs and maintenance. We have had one or two small unusual repairs and the usual tires, batteries, shocks, oil changes, etc. I spend more on tires as I replace my tires every three years as I drive in a lot more snow than he does.
What is critical - and I give Honda some credit for emphasizing REGULARLY SCHEDULED MAINTENANCE - is that you have to do the routine maintenance religiously.
From my fleet experience, I have had few problems with Intrepids/Taurus/Bonnevilles that most of my drivers choose. I had one electrical problem with the Lexus RX330 at 40k. And innumerable problems with Volvos and Saabs.
So is 97' the Last of the Big Bod Benzs ?????
How much for S500 or S600 in mint ?????
Thanx Guys....I'm just lookin' for some knowlede on what to spend so I can join the fintail, plekto, gangstas :shades: J/K
Bottom Line: If one of you could find a nice premo benz Black, (Like Princess Di's toomb) that is the right styalr and under $20K would be a good deal, leemee know
please
Rocky