The Big 3 and the domestic issues that will affect them

rockylee

Plekto,

The car wasn't meant to be a sportster like the IS350. The Lucerne was suppose to be the Toyota Avalon, Lexus ES 330, slayer. The IS350's ride is a little too firm for me. I'd also take GM's Magnaride over anything Lexus offers since it's a happy medium. If I wanted to smoke a IS 350 or any other asian car for that matter like it was standing still, I'd just buy a CTS-V. I will also note that the "IS" is made for people that are about the size of a pee wee herman :P funny but a fact. Putting an Adult in the backseat should be against the law. :surprise:
This is why the Lucerne is a true player in the entry lux field. It might not be everyones cup of tea, but it will be a favorite at most tables

Rocky

plekto

$28K will get you an Avalon. It better slay it like Conan with all of his steriod-induced glory for another $10K.

Entry Lux. $38K. Depreciates like week old socks. Check.

I think I'll pass. Bet it uses DexCool as well. Lol.

gmctruck

$28K will get you an Avalon. It better slay it like Conan with all of his steriod-induced glory for another $10K.

Entry Lux. $38K. Depreciates like week old socks. Check.

I agree!! My chin hit the floor when I saw the sticker price. I wouldn't pay 38k for any GM product because they depreciate too fast.

callmedrfill

What happened to GM's Total Value Promise, and "Value Pricing", and all the other Detroit windage? Was that hooey or bologna, I can't keep track at this particular time.

Let's keep the hyperbole to "more tasteful than a Lexus ES", instead of "Better/Prettier than anything". Don't blow too hard on that pipe, friend. Remember Richard Pryor, R.I.P.

$38k is a lot for ANY Domestic FWD, Cadillac included.

If it held value like a Honda/Toyota, than you might have something.

The next ES350 will have similar power anyway. It has earned the right to ask for $38k with a straight face

DrFill

rockylee

Well $38K is fully loaded, except navi.(CXS) CX you can get for low $20's.
The ES and Avalon are nice cars. My opinion comparing all 3 is the Buick is the nicest of the bunch. I don't think the Lucerne will depreciate as fast as ya'll think. It speaks quality in a big way. I reccomend anyone to atleast check one out if your looking for a nice sedan with decent power and a smooth ride. The CXS has lots of premium features. The Avalon I priced up was almost $40K. :confuse:

Rocky

rroyce10

..... Actually, except for the Rendezvous, Buicks have held their value pretty strong in the market, and have for years ......

Terry.

rockylee

I wished GM would scrap the Rendezvous. The Rainer could have a market place if GM would make it very unique, but conservative. I guess one way would be to add creature features that the Trailblazer, Envoy, wouldn't have such as magnaride, heated windshield washer fluid, 4 yr. 50K warranty, AC seats, massaging seats, DVD 7.1 surround, swivel headlamps, adaptive cruise, etc etc. otherwise it just won't work. Buick needs to overhual it's image. The Lucerne/Lacrosse is a step in the right direction in Quality and fit and finish. The Lucerne would be better if it was AWD or had a transfer case to switch into 4x4 at a push of a button for inclement weather.
Something unique is all I'm saying !!! I'd leave the Lacrosse as a FWD. Make the Velite Roadster, on the Sigma or Zeta platform with a high performance sedan version. Something like a Lexus IS/GS or Acura RLish.

Rocky

callmedrfill

It's just $38k, loaded?

Let's say 1 year from today, you see one "pre-owned" for $29,995 with 13k on it, it'll sell in less than a month? Or will it become like furniture?

I don't see spending $30k for a used Buick either, don't care what's on it.

Especially with the "fire sales" still pretty consistent.

DrFill

rroyce10

..... Cars are very much golf clubs ...

Some think Titleist make the best, some will argue that Callaway is the "fat daddy" and then you have the guy 3 doors away that swears by the Ping product, and they all probably have a 20 handicap ..l.o.l.. .... it's personal thing, like cars.

Nobody knows what the Lucerne will do in 10/20 months, we'll leave that up to the folks with the crystal ball ... but as a whole, Buicks have enjoyed very high resale values - whether "you" like or dislike the product is not important.



Terry.

rockylee

Rocky

plekto

A car's depreciation is based on its lowest sale price as the base model. You get virtually nothing back for options. So in two years, that $38K model will sell for $20K.

Honda, OTOH, offers the options as a trim level with no alterations. GM and many others could learn something from this. One looks good in ads but really fools nobody and the other insures the car will keep its value better.

ehaase

I wished GM would scrap the Rendezvous. The Rainer could have a market place if GM would make it very unique, but conservative.

Buick will scrap both the Rendezvous and Rainier when the 2008 Enclave debuts.

And the rumors are that the next generation LaCrosse will be on GM's FWD Epsilon II platform (around 2010) and that the next generation Lucerne will be on the RWD Zeta platform.

callmedrfill

If they will only reverse themselves and make it RWD next time? :confuse:

The dynamics of the car will change, and it will alienate anyone who buys it in FWD.

Kind of underscores the point of it being too expensive as a domestic FWD, no?

Someday, it aspires to be RWD!

DrFill

lemko

Holy Virgil Exner, Batman! Has Chrysler finally heard me?

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060102/FREE/51229003/1008

anythngbutgm

While I would never be in the market for a car that big, it is pretty sharp in a 300 meets Bently Continental sort of way. The Challenger that it shares the page with is aeesome BTW, but the 20" wheels really look out of place on a design with 60's styling cues... :shades:

rroyce10

.... You keep screaming RWD .... have you ever taken into account that RWD's don't sell well north of the Mason/Dixon line, especially between November and March...?

Terry.

mirth

The RWD star is on the rise and FWD is in decline. The "buzz" is in having RWD. Eventually the trend will play itself out.

Frankly, although I like RWD for pure driving fun, traction control and stability control do NOT make it the equal of FWD in the snow. It's pure physics - weight on the driving wheels. The only thing I've ever seen that makes RWD decent in the snow is winter tires, but then you have to go through that hassle and expense every year.

fintail

Which of these Buicks have such great resale value, and what are they compared to? Daewoo?

I can look in the local free ad rags and find 05 LeSabres for 15K-ish and loaded 05 Lacrosse for 17-18K - and that's with wheels, leather, moonroof, etc.

lemmer

I know nothing of snow driving dynamics, but my European friends swear by rear drive, rear engined vehicles. One friend's FIL drives a 350Z Convertible during the summer and a Mitsubishi 4X4 diesel in the winter. In addition to this, they keep an ancient Skoda at the bottom of the hill leading to their house in case their SUV won't make it up when the snow and ice is particularly bad.

It also seems like alotta Germans get by with RWD in snowy conditions.

lemmer

Regals and Centurys have always been pretty bad, too. What does that leave?

rockylee

looks nice

Rocky

rockylee

ok cool. The Lucerne RWD version would be cool. Did that article say it will have a AWD alternative too ????

Neways a great article I posted in the GM styling forum.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060103/AUTO04/601030331/1148- /AUTO01
It's about high tech gadgets being the means for success.

Rocky

kdhspyder

I don't think the Lucerne will depreciate as fast as ya'll think. It speaks quality in a big way.

The problem may not be the quality and reliability of the Lucerne and other new well-built models. The problem likely will be the panic selling/discounting that pervades the whole corporation. If you buy a Lucerne at a fair price now and in 3 months when the sales dept realizes that inventory is backing up again.. down goes the price. Anyone who bought this month or last takes it in the neck. The value of today's purchase is $x lower than what they thought it was.

And the vehcile may be world class in every other way.

mirth

It also seems like alotta Germans get by with RWD in snowy conditions.

Yes, but the Europeans that have to deal with snow regularly probably have winter tires.

grbeck

Love the Dodge Challenger, but the Chrysler Imperial reminds me of a truck, especially that front end. Maybe the inspiration for the Imperial's design was an early 1950s pickup.

dhamilton

I think that Audi is the big seller in Germany over rivals, Benz, and BMW. That would tell me that they are either getting by on quattro all wheel drive, or front wheel drive. Just makes sense according to sales.

andre1969

does look a little bit like a 1959 or so Dodge pickup in the "face"!

oldsven

While RWD is certainly the rage for car fans to talk about, it remains to be seen if actual buyers feel the same way. The last figures I saw had the 300/Magnum/Charger sales running at less than half of Intrepid/Concorde a few years ago. Apart from problems getting moving in snow/slush, I think the main problems with these cars are fuel economy and the high driveshaft that effectively makes them 4 passenger vehicles. I love my Concorde for its space to put three adults/teenagers in the back without crowding and still get good gas mileage. At 261,000 miles I will be replacing it soon, but not with one of these. I suspect RWD vehicles will continue to occupy a niche market for cops and enthusiasts but won't do well as high volume vehicles. The disadvantages are too great compared to the perceived (under real world conditionsfor most people) advantage in handling.

sensai

It also seems like alotta Germans get by with RWD in snowy conditions.

Yes, but the Europeans that have to deal with snow regularly probably have winter tires.

Well that is certainly one smart thing they do. I have went from FWD to RWD (snow tires on both), and my RWD car (05 GTO) tracks and handles way better than my old FWD car (99 Grand Prix) ever did in the snow. I also drove a couple other FWD cars in the last couple snows with their stock all seasons, and the lack of traction with the all seasons is just plain scary after having driven with dedicated snow tires.

grbeck

If Chrysler is looking to a pickup for inspiration, it should have put fins on it and called it the Imperial Sweptside...

I would have preferred that Chrysler try to recapture the glittery grace of the 1955-56 models or the low-slung, exuberant outrageousness of the 1957-59 models.

Andre, I really don't like this new Imperial. I'd take a 300C or a Charger any day. It looks too big and blocky.

anythngbutgm

That sucker must weigh 3 tons! Even the 6.1 Hemi is only going to get that rig to 60 in around 10 seconds. And even with the Cylinder deactivation, I'd predict gas mileage no better than a Dodge Ram Quadcab pickup... or worse.

Very elegant looking IMO. Limited customer base is my guess as to why it will never see the showroom floor.

rockylee

Very True.

GM, I'd like to see offer is alot more attractive leases. You see the asians, and europeans offer this more than the domestics. Like a Caddy STS AWD V8 for $548 @ 48 months with $4600 down They'd sell a butt load.
(I'm comparing it to the Escalade lease) Even @ $599 and I'd buy one

Yes I'm not sure what GM will beable to do to stop rapid depreciation on some models. In Dallas you can buy a new 2005 Cadillac Deville starting at $22K. My god how much off ? That's like over $20K off on a base "stripped" model.
Trust me I've considered buying a 05' Deville.

The Lucerne I looked at had 18 inch rims/tires that where chromed. Heck the door handles, ventiports, grill, etc were chromed.

Loren, your "old school" in your thinking.
Your like the majority of folks over 40 yrs old that want plain Jane automobiles. Your lucky I don't work for GM. I'd outlaw base model cars :surprise:

Rocky

lemko

...I like the grille which reminds me a bit of the 1961 Imperial. I would've liked to see the stylists take a chance and have the "gunsight" taillights on top of the rear fenders. The profile does look a bit too much like a Phantom. If they really wanted to be gutsy, have the separate free-standing headlights!

mirth

The Imperial reminds me of one thing: the 300! It looks like a big 300 with a custom grill. Chrysler is just trying to take one winning concept and clone it a hundred times. That doesn't work - the Charger isn't exactly setting the world on fire. I think they lost their mojo when they fired Bernhard.

sls002

The Imperial concept is a possible production car and is based on the 300 platform. As such Chyrsler is probably very interested in the public response. However, a production model will more than likely be modified to some extent. Probably not quite so tall but with the longer wheelbase.

sls002

GM is not profitable because they have a zillion platforms. perhaps a slight exaggeration :P but you get the point

lemko

...you could go the other way and be like latter-day AMC and build everything off one platform. The 1987 AMC Eagle was essentially the same car as a 1970 Hornet.

lemmer

I always kinda liked the old German way of doing things:

One sausage, three lengths (i.e. BMW 3,5,7 or MB C,E,S).

anythngbutgm

"One sausage, three lengths (i.e. BMW 3,5,7 or MB C,E,S). "

Haha, I think I just woke the dead with a burst of laughter. That's classic! Too funny

imidazol97

GM gets slammed because they take one platform and make 3 or 4 variations on it. I'm not sure they have too many platforms, do they? Am I misunderstanding the point here.

Chrysler shouldn't try multisharing that 300 box too many ways. I see a few Chargers around but not many. They have sold a ton of those 300s, though. What happens when people start trading them in?

lemmer

Infiniti/Nissan takes a platform and makes an SUV, a luxury sedan and a sports car (FX35/45, G35, 350Z).

GM takes a platform and makes a mid-sized sedan for Buick, Chevrolet and Pontiac, and they are basically the same car.

GM's way doesn't work, but I am not sold on Nissan's way either. You end up with a sports car that is too heavy and an SUV that isn't really space efficient or capable of any significant offroad activity.

imidazol97

Or Honda does the Odyssey, Pilot, and what else on the same base? If GM did that, they'd be ridiculed to death because they didn't develope the proper car in each case!

Of course when the transmissions start failing in the Hondas, they all look the same.

lemmer

At least Honda is smart enough to keep the S2000 separate and GM is smart enough to do the same with the Corvette.

rockylee

exactly

Rocky

rockylee

along with the XLR :P

Rocky

rockylee

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060104/UPDATE/601040446/1148- /AUTO01

rockylee

Do any of you like this Rolls Royce alternative ???? :surprise:

Rocky

andre1969

I've also heard that in their truck lineups, that the Titan/Armada full-size platform also serves as the basis for the latest Frontier midsized pickup, Pathfinder midsized SUV, and even the entry level Xterra!

I wonder if this would make for the smaller trucks and SUVs to be bigger and heavier than they would have been if they were all-new, independent designs?

lemmer

Maybe that will make the Xterra and Pathfinder extra rugged.

Nissan also goes a little nuts with that VQ engine. Do they offer anything other than a Sentra and a Q45 without it?

lemmer

Or Honda does the Odyssey, Pilot, and what else on the same base? If GM did that, they'd be ridiculed to death because they didn't develope the proper car in each case!

Well, GM already did that. Have you seen a Rendezvous? It looks like someone took a clay model of a GM minivan and hacked off a little bit here and there with a butcher knife. Same with an Aztek. I don't think people even know that these are supposed to be SUVs. They just see them as ugly minivans.

The Pilot might not be the most rugged crossover, but it hides its roots far better.