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The Big 3 and the domestic issues that will affect them
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Without the US auto industry and its supporting industries, hundreds of thousands will be out of work or employed in low-wage jobs that can barely provide a subsistance living. I'd hate to be a Toyota owner in Michigan. Your Camry will constantly be vandalized and more aggressive unemployed auto workers will assault you.
GM can get away with being slightly more expensive, but has to have enough creature features to attract Gen X and Y buyers to justify it.
My prediction is the Next Gen CTS will be a big bang hit !!!!
Rocky
P.S. yes it does have the rear camera deal. also on the Infiniti M45 there is the return of 4-Wheel steering a.k.a. "rear active steer" as Infiniti calls it. I wished GM would add this feature to the CTS-V and STS :P
Yes Michigan and lots of suppliers of GM will be laid off, but the only one who is speaking out against it are 2 women and 1 male. One named Gov. Jennifer Granholm of Michigan, who wants to change the trade treaties. The other women is Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton. Former V.P. running mate of John Kerry in John Edwards has been going around to different Union halls trying to rally the troops for a 2008 run. He said he's really upset at the way this administration has turned it's back on the working class of this country. He said he's fighting everyday for change. Will we see change in this administration, I doubt it.
Bill Ford is currently not taking a salary AT ALL while the company is doing poorly. I'd call that going the extra mile.
It is good to be patriotic but it should not be a reason to bail out an American company that makes inferior products or products that are not very appealing (design, price, reliability) to the targeted audience. The "patriots" are usually located in the middle region of the United States, away from the coastal areas where the BIG 3 are more dominant. These people are for the most part Republicans as you could have seen in the last presidential election.
Imagine if we would buy American because of that sole reason, then the BIG 3 would not be in a mess but they would not improve their products since they do not need to. The BIG 3 are where they are for laziness and ineptitude. The Germans got caught off guard in the early 90's but they have rebounded.
If some people on these forum do not see a different between a comparably Japanese product and an American product then they do not see what most people see. Even if both products could have the same gadgets, the Japanese have better placement, better feel, looks rich in texture, easier to use, evenly installed, it just looks better designed.
I have driven my friend (older models) Mustang, and a whole bunch of rental cars that included Lincoln Continental, Buick Le Sabre, Chevrolet Cavalier, Neon. Out of all of them I liked the Cavalier the best, it is because I did not expect anything from a "cheap" car. The Mustang had awful breaks, and vague steering feel, the Lincoln was the worst because I had to constantly adjust the steering wheel in the freeway to make it go straight (I read this in car magazines before but I did not know how bad it was).
I need to change my car soon. No American car for me. The closest thing would be a CTS but why is it so heavy ( no aluminum used, lack of technology & innovaitons?) and the interior to me is awful looking. :mad: The middle console seems to be taken out from and upscale truck or SUV. After careful consideration NO GERMAN. I know people who own BMWs' and MBs'. They have too many problems, mainly electrical. I have seen them with rental cars or loaners too many times. :lemon: SO JAPANESE WILL BE, Lexus or Infiniti.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
My opinion is exactly the opposite. GM needs a bread and butter mid-range car.
I think there is big potential in the CTS. If they can offer a base model with no feature(i.e. no leather, no nav, no HiD, mere 200 hp) at about $25000 purchased price (MSRP can be say $28000). In that way, the CTS can attract some Camry/Accord V6 buyers.
I know the makers are looking at their consumer profiles. But you need not sacrifice good design. Conservative or grown up doesnt mean outdated or boring. Cars are different from refrigerators. People flock to buy Land Rovers even though the quality is poor because it LOOKS GOOD. Image is everything.
I read somewhere that it's in Toyota's interest to keep the US domestic manufacturers healthy to prevent political backlash against Japanese products.
Didn't Japanese manufacturers (not just Toyota) impose voluntary import quota back in the 80s to minimize the flak? I guess it's sorta the same thing.
Personally, I think Toyota should never buy GM. They are doing fine running their own lean ship. Why would they want to saddle themselves with all the baggage that comes with GM (pension obligations, health care costs, UAW, crap upper management, etc).
And 'Yota ain't buyin'. They'd buy BMW first, and they've had the chance, but they are not GM. Buying other makers is not on their agenda. They want to make money, not burn it!
Personally, I would LOVE them to buy BMW, just so they could sell some manual trannys!! Apparently, they are not profitable enough to sell from their own stock. But they sure are fun and make Good Toyota cars GREAT Toyota cars (see Toyota 200GT, MR2 Turbo, Supra, and any Toyota truck)
2. Toyota doesn't want the GOVERNMENT involved, because they will lose that with the obvious trade imbalance.
GM's problems are as much mismanagement as it is outside factors beyond their control. The losses they have made are well-earned, undeniably.
3. Great Pose, Manifold!!
I give Chrysler credit. Their cars have schtyle! And they aren't any better or worse, dynamically or quality wise, so if you "Buy American", why not buy something that is worth being seen in. What is GM making?
The Colorado - Hoaky
New Tahoe - Simple
Malibu - Boring
Impala - Sorry
TrailBlazer - Yawn
GM can make interesting, sexy cars!! The Saturn Sky is the best looking convertible I've ever seen! Awesome! I like the new Vette. The G6 is a quantum leap over the Grand Am. The drivetrain and interior reek of cost-cutting, but......
My point is GM is NOT Toyota! They can't make cars that look like Corollas and Camrys and sell 400k of them, because........people know they are NOT getting a Toyota!
When your name is not Toyota (or Honda, to a lesser extent), you MUST stretch yourself, in style, in dynamics, something.
The Nissan Altima USED TO BE the ugliest car on the road! Not even a close second!
Now it's one of the 10 best sellers in the country!
Mazda3 wasn't even a product! The Protege everybody knew was a decent little car. With no name recognition, it is Mazda's best seller. It is carrying Mazda!
And Chrysler is turning profits for I think 5 straight quarters off of the 300C ALONE!
GM/Ford, do likewise gents. If you don't I have no sympathy for you. :mad:
Don't make great deals, make great cars! Make great cars, you won't have a problem with workers, or unions, or plants shutting down, or share dropping. Can I run GM? :confuse:
Solstice plant opened a third shift. That's a pretty good car. The Sky is sexier, but a strong car.
If GM/Ford made great, or even very good cars, so many problems just go away. Winning solves problems.
Make a winner. Collect profit. Repeat. :shades:
DrFill
As for the impending purchase, n1daniel, also consider a few european vehicles. The Volvos are quite good for the money - the new S40 is a great car - worlds better than the older generation one. Audi is also a great car if you get a manual transmission and no fancy electronics.
The S40 made it to my top 5 list because a base model with a manual transmission can be had out the door for about $21.5K. $23937 TMV price with leather, sport package, and stability control added, and factoring in $1500 in incentives. $21556 TMV price for a basic one. Way better car than a Sentra or Civic for only a tiny bit more money.
I don't know if I would use the word patriotism ... but in Michigan, import dealers are few and far between ..... we need to get you out more ...
Terry.
I live in West-Texas and these folks are very conservative also, but the difference is they are more patriotic Big 3 buyers than the conservatives of Michigan.
Wonder what will happen to the GM comeback when a) 'yota's new production starts cranking; b) Toyota managment says "Hey, what if we cut prices 10%?"
Thank God I am not a GM employee.....
If baby boomers and genx/y love imports so much (european/asian) why don't ford and gm import their european models that are selling so well overseas and are direct competitors to those imports. They can keep selling ladder frame trucks and suvs to the south and southwest and to commercial buyers. Despite my ownership of foreign cars (both built here, the Mitsubishi by a UAW plant) I would still like to see our domestic industry prosper. Please only reply if you can add to my question, bashing doesn't serve any purpose of having a forum
Short answer: the UAW won't let 'em. GM has to pay a $500 danegeld for every Aveo, and GM is only permitted to import 18,000 GTOs a year (which turned out not to be a problem, but that's beside the point).
It's easy to see that GM could, a decade from now, be downsized to a half-dozen factories building BOF trucks and SUVs, Cadillacs, large FWD sedans, (stuff that has no market of any consequence outside of North America) and a few sub-20,000 niche products (Corvette, Solstice). Everything else would come off a boat from Korea (either rebadged Daewoos or rebadged Holdens from their ex-Daewoo factory).
Isn't this what GM is planning, i.e. importing Opels from Europe and selling them here as Saturns? Personally, I think it's a great idea.
Even if the SUVs are a hit, they won't help GM maintain market share. They can have a definite positive effect on profitability, but the fact remains, that GM has several new/updated cars out and they are still loosing market share.
Dunno if you can dismiss Toyota as having a "lil success for now." They have been recording profits for ages. When was the last time Toyota actually lost any money?
Nissan has been in the brink but was saved by Renault/Carlos Ghosn. If Nissan was able to be turned around, I'm sure GM and Ford can do the same. I just don't know if they can be turned around with the current leadership at the helm.
Isn't this one of the problems with GM right now: having a too big a portfolio of makes? How would adding more makes help?
Toyota has its issues. Management is concerned that their manufacturing build quality is declining as they do not have enough experienced and trained people to staff all of the plants that they are opening. Eventually, however, those will be resolved.
Nissan is having quality problems with some of their new vehicles also. One of the consumer advocates - one that has driven Nissans for years as his commuting cars - has downgraded the Altima to "not recommended" in Canada.
Something else that everyone keeps forgetting on all of these posts .... come January 1st when Toyota rolls out of bed, their cost of doing business is about 30% less in overhead ... The Big 3 can't make the UAW dissapear anytime soon (if at all) and Toyota doesn't even have to think about .. that makes all the difference in the world .... could you imagine if you woke up everyday and knew your monthly budget was 30%+ less .....
Terry.
Ideally, Ford and GM should both downsize dramatically to meet demand - close many plants, eliminate divisions (Pontiac, Buick, Saturn, Hummer, Saab, Lincoln, Mercury), fire employees, slash health care costs, and eliminate the pension liabilities. Outside of bankrupcty, I don't see how this is possible.
Most Americans are very happy with their Toyotas, Nissans, and Hondas and could care less if GM and Ford go out of business. Most of the people who care about the Big 3 seem to live in the upper Midwest. Bush lost most of those states, so don't expect any help from this administration.
Me: I never have, or never will expect alot from Mr. Bush and this administration. I guess when your to worried about protecting Rove, Delay, Libby, you don't have time to do your job. I however saying that could see him working overtime to make sure his oil buddy's are well taken care of. :mad: One thing you can say about this president, he's not going to fake where he stands. You also better know the secret handshake in washington. He's proven to us all, his priorities. They're in making himself and his cronies billions. I unfortunatly don't look at him as just the President of the U.S.A. anymore. This is sad, because I see him more as a typical CEO that's out of control. I just expected alot more from a man that proclaims to have Christian morale values. I wished he would show us Americans those morale values with action, not just lip service. Hundreds of thousands of people may lose their jobs if this trend continues. A UAW autoworkers paycheck switches hands 7 times. Yeah it might not hit some of you directly finacially. However if the Big 3 does goes under, it will effect more than likely a friend, relative, and more importantly a fellow american.
So yeah you can be happy with your Nissans, Toyota's, Honda's, etc etc. It's your choice. I have no control of the decision you will make. I just want ya'll to think about the consequences of not buying American Made. This just doesn't mean cars only. I am talking about all material things in general. I guess it's so easy to always fight to find the best price and product for the money on everything we buy. I understand, but we as a country can't stay on this course. The result will be Japan, and China becoming the sole Super Powers. They won't have to fire a shot to bring the United States to it's knees. They can and will do it economically. It might not happen in our lifetime, but it could easily happen in your childrens and grand childerens lifetimes. :sick:
This isn't the route I want to take for my country. The Big 3 are only examples of what can happen to 95% of us. No matter what buisness your in. If people don't buy your product, the net result is you going out of buisness finacially because your American Dollar value is worth next to nothing and isn't a desired currency to have compared to others.
This is what Ross Perot, pretty much said back in 92' and was why he was so against globalization. We laughed him off the stage back then. Now some of us aren't laughing as much. His baught and paid for TV time, showed us economy charts of what NAFTA and other Trade Treaties could do to us domestically. Now our president was in Argentina for a CAFTA conference yesterday, selling the american worker out once again.
These opinions are soley mine. It's how I see the U.S.A.
I just hope are domestic issues can be saved by our next president. I feel sorry for he/she that gets the assignment of trying to save America from it's self. Will it be to late is the question ????
Rocky
I'm sorry, but I must have got lost in my browser .... I thought the topic was called: **The Big 3 and the domestic issues that will affect them.. **
I didn't know we were listening to "your" lost and skewed idea's on currents politics .... don't worry, you'll have time to do your homework over the weekend before your first class on Monday ....
Terry.
Trade Treaties are a issue that will affect the Big 3, and our President whether your "for or against" him is trying his hardest to get CAFTA to pass. If you support CAFTA, hey by all means you have the right too. I was telling everyone (my) opinion on how I see it. Politics is a domestic issue, and should be covered. It (wasn't) a direct insult at you. I have supported President Bush on some issues, and others I strongly disagree with him. This domestic issue happens to really chap my butt, because it will affect lots of ordinary folks in my country including the Big 3. I feel by implementing this harmful treaty into law, will only benefit the Top 5% and if he had good judgement, he would reconsider
Thanx
Rocky
By the way ... we need to send you off to Paragraph School.
Terry.
This is his topic - he has 40% of the posts ...
YAWN!!
Here's an odd one...someone in my building got in a fender bender, and has a rental car while the other car is being fixed. It's a Malibu. But it is loaded - roof, leather, etc. Should such models make it to fleets?
Back at Christmas my sister came to visit, and she had a rental Impala - also roof, leather, wheels. Should these be fleet vehicles, the highline versions? It dilutes the brand even further. GM's biggest problem is image, and this does not help.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Actually, I think rentals should be from the upper lines. You want to give people a good impression of your cars, and if you have them drive stripped base models, it will add to the impression of domestic=cheaply made. If someone drives a civic or corolla, and their only GM experience is a stripped cavalier, they'll probably not even consider buying a GM car down the line.
I don’t think the simple task of Buy American is going to work especially since the immigrants are fast out numbering that “past” attitude and buying what's every cheaper. Go to your local Wally Mart and see all the immigrants lining up at the check out lanes and then walking out to their foreign SUV, and high-end foreign cars. Buy American, one can't even find a pair of shoes anymore made in the USA without going on a scavenger hunt.
The middle class is fast becoming extinct. Why is Hyundai the fastest growing auto making, not because they are cost effective, it's more to do with they are plain cheap enough for people who make $7.00 an hour working for the man, that's the real reason.
Buy America was the chant heard in the steel mill towns 30 years ago, now it's more like buy what ever you can afford to survive, if you are not born wealthy, gifted with high intelligence, or part of the elitist group that controls your very life then Buying American is not your first thought.
You forgot to finish your story ...... he called them and then what happened..?
Terry.