The Big 3 and the domestic issues that will affect them

grbeck

rockylee: Well when your country becomes 3rd world because their are no good union jobs to keep the wage scale up, no good paying white collar jobs because the blue collar wage is reduced to poverty, then you might "get" what some of us are talking about. It's class warfare and the middle class is getting squeezed like a pimple.

I grew up in a non-union area of southcentral Pennsylvania...it was quite prosperous then, and still is today. If anything, the big problem is soaring housing costs because so many people are moving to the area.

Bethlehem Steel collapsed a few years ago here in Harrisburg, and we don't have people starving in streets. And we've never had any major auto plants - or auto component plants - in this area.

Sorry, but your alarmist talk is not borne out by the real world. The simple fact is that most people do not make the wages paid to blue-collar UAW workers. Even here in Harrisburg most WHITE-COLLAR workers don't make Delphi blue-collar wages.

No one is begging in the streets, and the only white-collar people who work at two jobs are those who want to (usually because the second job is also a hobby)

rockylee: We don't actually know if the Japanese would actually buy American or GM Cars do we ?????

The Japanese buy a fair number of German cars, which are considered quite prestigious in Japan. So this runs deeper than barriers to imported vehicles.

Considering that Americans have successfully controlled their urge to buy most American cars, it doesn't require a stretch of the imagination to believe that they would flop in Japan.

Incidentally, when Toyota imported the Chevy Cavalier in the late 1990s and sold it through Toyota dealerships, it had to refinish each one, because the fit-and-finish were not up to Japanese standards. Maybe that's the real problem...

Plus, GM and Ford have NEVER followed a strategy of importing vehicles from North America on a large scale. They prefer to either set up a local subisidiary to manufacture vehicles tailored for that market (Ford of Europe, Ford of Australia, etc.) or buy a local company (Holden, Vauxhall and Opel for GM).

I think the problem is that domestic partisans just can't admit that, to the rest of the world, American vehicles are not that desirable for a variety of reasons.

rockylee: Delphi is not the Auto-Industry ???? what's 90% of their buisness then ??? Farming ????
Come-on grbeck !

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear...the auto industry is much more than Delphi. We will still have a thriving domestic auto industry if Delphi goes into bankruptcy. It just won't necessarily be controlled by GM, Ford, Chrysler and the UAW...welcome to the 21st century.

rockylee: So you are basically saying the answer is paying folks minunum wage. $16 an hour is basically poverty.

I have said nothing of the sort...this is more UAW-type hysteria, where the choice is always presented as either minimum wage or $87,000-plus-benefits for forklift drivers.

The simple fact is that there is plenty of middle ground out there. If the UAW can't see the middle ground, that is its problem.

rockylee: It might buy you a Kia and a shack in a rough neighborhood if you have to basically provide portion of your own retirement and health benefits out of your check .

I don't make union wages, but guess what - I don't drive a Kia (thank goodness) and I don't live in a shack. Neither does anyone else I know.

rockylee: The UAW workers at the Big 3 make a wage range in the $50's if they work 40 hrs. So they are over paid, because perhaps you don't make that much. I'm am definitly tired of the Jealousy factor of people who want to run the UAW workers in the ground because they were fortunate enough to get a good paying job and contributed to this country.

Ah, yes, the old jealousy argument...

I don't care how much UAW members make. I don't care if they make $200,000 annually for four days of work. (For the record, I've never even met a UAW member in person, so I don't know how I could be jealous of them.)

If UAW members are making a vehicle I like, then I will buy it.

But...here's the rub. They don't, so I don't. And, judging by market share trends, an increasing number of Americans feel the same way.

And a large part of that is because uncompetitive labor contracts force the domestics to skimp on quality and features to pay for the Jobs Banks or Cadillac-level benefits.

rockylee: So you also must find it ok for my Tax dollars to subsidize Multi-Billions of dollars in Tax revenue to get the Asians to build a factory here to run GM out of Buisness. Why doesn't our government reward domestic manufactors like they do foreign company's With those Billions ????? If GM got the same deal, then we wouldn't be debating this issue.

GM, Ford and Chrysler have already gotten the same deal on other occasions to either modernize plants or build new ones. They play this game as much as Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Hyundai.

If you think that only the transplants are good at wrangling tax breaks from state and local governments, you need to read more than Solidarity.

For the record, I oppose ALL of these tax breaks and "incentives," but that is for every company - not just the tranplants.

rockylee: Why reward a oil industry that was already making record profits with Billions of dollars in George Dubya Bush & Govt. handouts ?????

We are talking about the auto industry, so subsidies for the oil industry are completely irrelevant, although, for the record, I oppose them, too.

rockylee: I am not blaming the Asians for taking advantge of it, however I do blame the Administration and the ones in power for selling out GM and the american auto-industry. No wonder why they don't have any money for R&D

The only people who have sold out the auto industry are the management and union leaders. They have too little money for research and development because of too many years of awful-to-mediocre vehicles, overly lavish union contracts, stock buybacks and ill-fated acquisitions.

None of which are the Bush Administration's fault.

rockylee

Well you told me !!!!! :P Just for the record My father does not make $87,000 a yr. and he has a higher scale job than a forklift driver !!!! Well I'm sorry you feel that way about American Companies such as GM and Unions. I guess you'd have to stand in my shoes to understand where I'm coming from. I'm glad life in Penn. is wonderful.

I guess Dubya's approval rating of 37% doesn't apply to folks in Penn ????

grbeck

rockylee: You have to look at this chart to see why Bill O'Reilly, exaggerated the avg. income of working class folks. Your Median middle class income is correct, but doesn't tell the whole story

Mr. O'Reilly said MEDIAN (at least, I'm assuming he did - I'm going by deans1's quote. I never watch Mr. O'Reilly.). Your chart shows what is undoubtely an AVERAGE figure for each state. So your chart doesn't show the entire story, either. Plus, you have to look at the other factors - tax load, cost of goods, cost of housing, etc.

grbeck

rockylee: I'm sorry you feel that way about American Companies such as GM and Unions.

What...that I believe that they must hustle to survive and EARN my business?

As I said, I have nothing against GM, Ford or the UAW. But they landed themselves in their present pickle, and they must get themselves out of it. I hear lots of whining and finger-pointing, but very few REAL solutions.

Quite frankly, the sense of entitlement among UAW members is getting tiresome.

rockylee: I guess you'd have to stand in my shoes to understand where I'm coming from.

Actually, I think most UAW members and their families (not to mention a few GM and Ford upper managers) are the ones who need to get out more and see what other people are doing and how they live.

If nothing else, they would see just how much of the new vehicle market the Big Three have lost over the past decade.

rockylee: I'm glad life in Penn. is wonderful.

Life is what you make of it whether you live in Pennsylvania, Michigan or California.

rockylee: guess Dubya's approval rating of 37% doesn't apply to folks in Penn ????

George W. Bush's approval rating - in Pennsylvania or anywhere else - is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

For the record, however, a fair number of the anti-Bush stickers I see are on...imports.

rockylee

Well you are correct in saying life is what you make it. I however want life in the United States to improve for every citizen, not just stand there like a bump on a log and say nothing and just except that my country's standard of living is eroding. Yes other U.S. citizens are working there butts off for alot less than auto-workers. That's why I blame our gov't and this current administration for worrying more about steroids, instead of domestic issues.
I feel that way about some democrats that are absolutely clueless.

mikey14

For most of my life I have owned Fords, many in my family are loyal Ford employees. THis weekend my wife bought a Honda ridgeline and it is the best car, so far, that we have ever owned. Honda engineering is light years ahead of domestic manufacturers. My point: Detriot and the UAW simply cannot produce a product the people want, at a reasonable price. Like most Americans, the UAW most realize what the rest of us have learned, to make upper-level wages one must have experience and education. Unfortunately, UAW members seem tot hink that making high 5 to 6-figure incomes with no real training or education is possible in AMerican business today. With few exceptions, they are wrong. Foreign car companies produce reliable (unlike any of my prior Fords) vehicles and have proven themselves superior in adapting to market demands, rather than pinning their companies' survival on selling as many behemoth SUVs with behemoth incentives as it can (such as GM). Rather organized labor is a relic is not the real issue (though I think the writing is on the wall that it is). The big 3 need to make vehicles people will buy, and engineers and line workers simply need to make higher quality units. Perhaps if many (though not all ) union workers saw their job as their job instead of a place to occupy their rime between union meetings the industry would not be forced into the position it is. Outsourcing, which does pay substandard wages in some cases, has gained ground in large part because of overpyaing, aggressive UAW contracts. UAW wages and benefit levels are not the norm in any American business today that is competitive in the world market. "Decent" wages, unfortunately, are below the $50 an hr mark, and if one needs $50 an hr to survive pehaps they are not being financially responsible. Unions are a business, plain and simple (hence why they collect dues), and are fighting for their lives. They will need to adapt like other businesses have to a changing world or sink to the bottom, taking the domestic auto industry, amongst other industries, with them.

rockylee

Where in the heck did you get your info from. If you REALLY had realatives working for FORD, you would know that they DON'T make $50 an hour and a income level of upper 5 digits or 6 digits, unless those relatives worked their 7-12-365. I can't beleive some of the exaggerated figures some of you come up with. They are "gut busters" but what's even more sad is, that many of you believe it. :confuse: :surprise:

lemko

...if autoworkers really DID make that much, I'd quit my job in a New York second and head on over to one of the Big Three. Everybody would be an autoworker making big bucks and buying Big Three vehicles because their jobs depended on it. The imports would vanish from our shores.

Grbeck, I don't know what Harrisburg is like now, but it seemed pretty depressed when I was last there 17 years ago. The hill area above Cameron Avenue looked as scary as any bad Philadelphia neighborhood.

That Bethlehem Steel plant in Steelton is HUGE. It seems to go on for about a mile. It, however, has nothing on the Beth Steel plant in Sparrows Point, MD outside of Baltimore. The plant in Bethlehem, PA closed in 1997. They want to turn it into a museum/retail complex/slots parlor. Yayyy!!! McJobs for all!

rockylee

Yeah especially since you can be a dumb-[non-permissible content removed] and don't have to have a brain to work for the Big 3. Like I've said before, some people think because someone works in a auto factory for a living, they automatically are borderline mental insitute bound. My father is one of the smartest and most mechanically inclined human beings I've ever known. I know people with MBA's that don't even know how to check their oil. Seriously it's crazy to make generalization assumptions. About anyone can get a college degree if they are willing to be inconvience for 4 years and study. A college degree yes is benefitual to ones well being, but it's not a good way to Judge ones intellegence or I.Q. Anymore who doesn't have a college degree, skill, or special training ?????

I've been to Penn once and felt the same as you lemko. You obviously have spent time there.
If your not going to get a McJob, you can always stock shelves at the local Wally World. :confuse:

Rocky

andre1969

for the car shows in Carlisle and so forth, and I don't know if it's really all that depressed economically, but housing is sure a lot cheaper than down here in the DC area! My grandmother grew up in Harrisburg, and sometimes when I'm up there I'll drive by her old house. Back in June, I saw that the house next door to hers was for sale. The price? A whopping $65,000. For a 3-story semi-detached home with a cellar. $65,000 would get you literally nothing in my county. Unless you could luck out and get into the one or two mobile home parks we have.

Heck, today I was looking on a real estate website and found a nice little 3-bedroom 1-bath two story in Carlisle with a 3-car garage! All for only $46,000! Now it was HUD home, so I don't know what all was wrong with it. It was on .04 acres though (1741 square feet) and I'm having trouble picturing how you could get a house and 3-car garage on a lot that small!

Still, that's actually tempting! Heck, I could almost put that on a credit card (well, 3 or 4 credit cards! :P )

Now, I've heard that the school system in Harrisburg is pretty bad, and that keeps house prices down. I don't know what the story is with Carlisle...this place was within walking distance of the Fairgrounds. Still, none of the area looks economically depressed or scary to live in...at least not to me.

mikey14

Uncle made $110,000 working 6 days a week for several months. Figure in the free healthcare and anyone with any knowledge of economics can see where this train is headed...Even at the high-20's per hr that Dephi workers make for now that's still alot of money for a relatively easy job. Market forces dictate that when there is a low demand for a skill, the wage drops. Nurses, for example, are scarce in some areas and make $25-50 per hr for a reason. Blue-collar assembly line workers are rapidly decreasing thus their wages will as well. Unions offer an unrealistic amount of protection to workers but there are far too many unemployed people who could and will do the job for far less (and be happy, to boot). Let me guess, rockylee, you're a union local officer perhaps? Thanks but I'll take the non-union healthcare job I have and the job security that comes with it because I am making a reasonable wage for the job I do. Time to realize that if labor as we know it doesn't change the solidarity that organized labor offers will give its member somethign to talk about in the unemployment line. It's quite unfortunate, too, since domestic automakers really do have a lot to potentially offer if they could overcome their labor problems and inept management (yes, management and white-collar workers share a role it Detriot's debacles, not just unions).

grbeck

Harrisburg has its poor section, just like any other major city. The area around Cameron Street is the industrial area, and it borders Allison Hill, the poorest neighboorhood. Anyone driving along Cameron Street or through Allison Hill will not get a good impression of Harrisburg. But that is only one part of Harrisburg.

Visit the neighborhoods of Italian Lake, Bellevue Park, Shipoke or Midtown, and a very different picture emerges.

Plus, Harrisburg has wealthy suburbs - Camp Hill, Susquehanna Township and Derry Township - along with solid middle-class suburbs in New Cumberland, Mechanicsburg, Paxtang and Enola.

grbeck

The area is doing pretty well economically, but housing prices have started to creep upward, as developers from the Baltimore/D.C. area have "discovered" southcentral Pennsylvania, and are building one subdivision for less money than it takes to construct one street of homes in Maryland.

And, yes, the Harrisburg school district is not that great, but the mayor took it over thanks to a special act passed by state government, and he is giving it some sorely needed financial discipline and management savvy.

The Carlisle school district is actually quite good. Even the poorest neighborhood in Carlisle seems like paradise compared to what you'll find in Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington, D.C., or New York City.

dieselone

I'm with your Gbeck. This doom and gloom BS is getting old. I know to many people with degrees and without that are doing just fine.

I grew up in NW Indiana and the same crap was said there too. "The mills are going belly up and the whole area will go down the tubes". Nope! Didn't happen, sure there are poor areas, but this country has had poor people since the beginning. Did we have poor people when GM was at its peak? Yep.

I live in a middle class neighborhood in Wichita where the houses in my circle range from a low of $150k to about $225k. Most of us have kids and guess what, everyone that has kids has a stay at home spouse. I see more and more people raising families on one income and doing quite well in their 20s-30s and I've seen this in the last 4 states I've lived in during the past 6 years.

Granted some couples need 2-4 jobs between them to keep their heads above water. But to make statements that you can't raise a family on one income any more and that our standard of living is suffering is simply BS. A family can be raised on one income if your willing to sacrifice. You don't need 2+ cars, 4 TVs, multiple cell phones, cable, broadband, A/C, and on and on, granted these are nice to have, but you can cut back. We have so much more today then when we were growing up. My mom stayed home, my parents always had one car and made sacrifices to raise 3 kids on my dads salary as a grocery store manager.

I don't believe for one minute that the future of the U.S. rests on the backs of the auto industry. The domestic auto manufacturers have been in decline for 30 years when you look at market share and employment. The same can't be said of our economy.

The fact remains GMs cars aren't as desirable to the masses as they once were. That is GMs fault. Not Walmart or the medical industry.

deans1

grbeck & dieselone


I worked in the airline industry for 15 years meeting people from all over this country, it's the nature of the airline business, like nomads, anyway I have feel for what's true and what’s not from knowing all these people from all four corners of the country. Working and raising kids with a stay at home mom is not an "average" event by any stretch. Most folks "need" to have two incomes to make ends meet and then buy everything at Wally World too-boot.

I am lucky having a couple different trade skills under my belt and even with them I am hard pressed to make much over 60 grand without working a ton of overtime, and I have 30 years experience to offer so I am talking the top pay scale. Here in PA that is excellent considering what's left will all the mills and recently airline industry going belly up.

This is NOT gloom and doom you're reading here, it's an actually reality you happened to be sheltered from, for now.

The Factor comment that I mentioned in an earlier post: My man O'Reilly is crazy saying the "average" income is that high. My son has his masters degree and is hard pressed to earn what is called, “average” unless you want to go to the big cities where the cost of living is in the stratosphere and crime is an everyday occurrence and housing costs are numbing, and did I mention taxes .

Gloom and doom my foot, harsh stark reality most folks are living with in today’s world and just because you are sheltered from this reality doesn’t make it a false reality, sheltered for now, that is.

rockylee

I assumed he did 6 days a week for 52 straight weeks @ $30 dollars an hour, and saturday was time and a half @ $45 an hour working those 6 days at 8 hours a day. I came up with a yearly salary of $81,120. So you said several months, and I gave him 6 days for a whole year.

Ok I did 8 hours a day, 7-12-52 and included Sundays at Double Time rate of $60 and came up with a figure of
$106,080 without not taking a day off one whole.

Yes it can be done, if your Uncle worked some 12 hrs a day 6 days a week and/or worked holidays where they get Double Time + Holiday pay. However that equals out to 72 hrs. work weeks.

If your uncle works on the assembly line at Ford, I wouldn't call that easy work. It is not only absolutely boring labor, but requires a great deal of concentration and speed to not slow the line down. Not to mention heavy lifting on some jobs. If that's easy, then I'd hate to hear what kind of work you are involved in ????? Digging Ditches with a shovel :confuse: ?????

Some of you that are sheltered by the overall economy, and good for you. I'm not wishing that any of you will lose your job. I however think to replace you good jobs in todays economy would be alot more difficult than lets say 6 years ago. I personally applied at several places before moving to Texas. I got very lucky. My Step father went from making $22 an hour to $12 and change. My Mom went from making $17 an hour to $9 and change. She after 3 years is finally making $12 and change. These are only personal examples of how my Parents aren't better off.

Rocky

dpat

Some of you that are sheltered by the overall economy, and good for you

So if we're not one step away from living on the street, we're "sheltered"? Traditional manufacturing is the ONLY sector of the economy that isn't booming.

For too long, wages at the automakers have been far more than the companies can afford to pay and still be profitable. Now, the pendulum is going to swing the other way. It sucks, and there is plenty of blame to go around, from executives living in a fantasy world (Fiat anyone? that worked well), to engineers thinking something like the Pontiac Aztek will sell, to unions demanding job banks so that no employee can ever be laid off.

lemko

...the United States had a 25.1% unemployment rate in 1933, the nadir of the Depression. I guess things were still great for the other 74.9% that had jobs - NOT! Heck, when you see friends and family losing jobs left and right or working long hours for peanuts, you wonder if you'll be next.

I make a very good living and I'm grateful, but always fearful of the day the axe could fall. I've been there before. I was once an executive in an advertising and sales promotion company. In a few hours I went from having my own office suite to being the only guy in a suit and tie with a briefcase in the unemployment office on 55th Street in West Philly. Well, it wasn't much of a loss as the entire company folded three months later. It's a hollow feeling to wake up Monday morning and have no place to go. Fortunately, my period of joblessness was brief, (3 months/3 weeks) and my living expenses were modest, but when you're out of work, you never know how long it's going to be and if you're going to survive.

My mother was making a very modest $8.40 an hour as an aide in a nursing home. The place was bought out by another company and they demoted her to kitchen staff and dropped her pay to $6.40! Now, anybody else would be so angry, they'd quit. Mom is 59 years-old. She only stays for the crummy health benefits. There is better work elsewhere and Mom has applied, but nobody wants to hire an old woman. She lives in the northeast Pennsylvania anthracite coal region - a place that's been quite depressed for some time. If you don't get work in a non-union factory for around $8 an hour, you're doomed to Wally World or a convenience store job. My girlfriend and I once stayed in a hotel nearby and left a $10 tip for the maid. The woman was so happy you'd think we'd have fed her family for a week.

dieselone

Some of you that are sheltered by the overall economy, and good for you

I wouldn't say I'm sheltered from the economy. To be sheltered from the economy would mean being independently wealthy, which certainly isn't the case. My wife is fortunate to work in a field where she receives 4-5 job offers a month and there is still a shortage of eligible skilled workers. I fully realize it can all change, and we are currently making sure we'll be as prepared as possible.

There are areas of the economy and fields of work that are stronger than others. Sure, some areas are struggling, and all is not rosy for many people. But you do have a choice on how you prepare to stay out of the soup line. You need to stay aware of your environment and adjust accordingly.

Ex. My FIL saw the writing on the wall with the steel industry 20 years ago. HE and my MIL were not college educated and my MIL was a stay home mom. During the downturn in the early 80's he encouraged my MIL to go to college. She went part time and received an accounting degree. It took 10 years via going to school part-time while raising kids, but she did receive an accounting degree.

She's now an accountant making more than he ever did and his job was eliminated from the LTV bankruptcy about 4-5 years ago. He doesn't have to work or worry about finding another job as an iron worker and he's decided to stay retired.

Maybe I am sheltered from what is really going on, I don't know. What I do know is between my wife and I, we have a lot of family members across the midwest and down in Florida. Some have degrees many do not. Many are certainly not rich, but they are not unemployed w/o shelter. Most promising is many that were in blue collar jobs that were eliminated have learned new skills and taken up good jobs in other fields. That's how you survive

dieselone

Lemko, I can relate with you. I worked as an Account Exec for a small Advertising Agency from '99-'01 and basically had the ax fall with the advertising crash. It was definitely ugly. One day everything is fine, the next all of your most lucrative accounts collectively decide to cancel/delay major projects. 75% of the staff got the axe and I left before the axe was taken to my head. Oh well, I moved on and haven't looked back.

My grandma has worked for the visiting nurses ever since my grandfather died 15 years ago. Nurses aids and those types of care givers are definitely under appreciated and under paid.

rockylee

We all have our opinions, and I hope none of you lose your jobs. Hell I wouldn't have anyone to debate with, because your internet service might be one of the first cuts in ya'lls budget. :mad: I hope someday we get a "boom" in the economy, and we all make a good living and can live a nice life that is worry free of finacial problems.
Then we can debate about what car we just baught and which one is better.

dieselone

I hope someday we get a "boom" in the economy, and we all make a good living and can live a nice life that is worry free of finacial problems.

Rock so do I, but that would be a perfect world. Unfortunately human and perfect do not coexist. Everybody can't be well off.

bigo

Hey People.. heres a simple question honestly wat car automaker would you really choose to keep? Ford or Nissan... GM or Toyota... Chrysler or Honda.. honestly?

The Big American 3
Or The Asian 3

Me Personally..i no the big three arent really doing all they can do make their cars better..but id rather be seen driving a big ol america car than any asian or korean, i dont really know y.. but to me the nothing competes with the pride of driving a Ford or Chevrolet, Lincoln or Cadillac... wat do You guys think?

rockylee

I would wanna drive a Big 3 car like a GM. However saying that, I do like alot of Asian and European vehicles. My favorite car made for 2006 is the new MAZDASPEED6. I wished GM and or the Big 3 would Carbon Copy this car. I also know the Mazda 6 is UAW made in Flat Rock, Michigan.
http://www.uaw.com/uawmade/cartruck2006.cfm

So realistically that would help ease my family's feelings on me driving a non-american, non-union made vehicle.
Also Ford owns Mazda and shares alot of parts with em'

But neways, GM would be my #1 choice

grbeck

deans1: I worked in the airline industry for 15 years meeting people from all over this country, it's the nature of the airline business, like nomads, anyway I have feel for what's true and what’s not from knowing all these people from all four corners of the country.

Having a "feel" for something and verifying it with facts and figures - not mere anecdotes - are two entirely different things. You have given us your OPINION.

Incidentally, did your "feel for what's true" tell you that French economic policies are designed to protect the wealthy at the expense of the middle class, and that the Big Three must offer rebates because their customers are hurting economically?

(People worried about losing their jobs are not buying new vehicles, regardless of the size of the rebate.)

Since both of those contentions are incorrect, I'd say that relying on your feelings is not necessarily a good thing.

The rest of us aren't living in a sealed bubble, or spending most of our time partying with Paris Hilton. We have a pretty good "feel" for what is occurring in the real world, too.

Your approach, however, does rack up more Frequent Flyer Miles. In that respect, at least, it is superior.

deans1: The Factor comment that I mentioned in an earlier post: My man O'Reilly is crazy saying the "average" income is that high.

And, as I said before, your proof that he is wrong is found where...?

Maybe he is wrong - as I said, I don't watch the man, so I don't know what he said, but you keep switching between "medium" and "average" when describing the figure that he supposedly quoted. And I doubt that he said "medium"; most likely he said "median."

I'd have more confidence in what you are saying if there some realization that "average" and "median" represent two different ways of measuring the same thing (in this case, income). Therefore, they are most likely to be two different figures.

deans1: My son has his masters degree and is hard pressed to earn what is called, “average” unless you want to go to the big cities where the cost of living is in the stratosphere and crime is an everyday occurrence and housing costs are numbing, and did I mention taxes .

That's a sample of one...hardly representative.

deans1: Gloom and doom my foot, harsh stark reality most folks are living with in today’s world and just because you are sheltered from this reality doesn’t make it a false reality, sheltered for now, that is.

If you mean that no one is guaranteed a life free from having to hustle to make ends meet, well, yes, that is a harsh reality. As it has been throughout most of history. Very few people are rich enough to live a life of leisure. But that hasn't changed much...well, since the dawn of time. Nothing new there.

As for the Big Three...yes, Delphi workers are experiencing lots of pain right now, and if they push the company over a cliff by striking later this year, they may take General Motors with them.

But that doesn't mean there isn't a strong auto industry in this country. People will still need new vehicles, and it will still make sense to make most of them (and their components) in this country (or at least, North America).

The auto industry is going to undergo some dramatic changes within the next year...not all of those changes will be pleasant for all the parties involved. But change is inevitable, and both the UAW and Big Three management need to remember that they work for the consumer, and exist to benefit them, not the other way around.

I don't know what the UAW hopes to achieve by striking Delphi. The company is broke. I guess union members will get the satisfaction of taking the company down instead of making wage and benefit concessions, but if the UAW really believes that people out here are going to rally to their cause, they are in for a very rude awakening. If anything, they may end up inadvertently boosting sales of Nissans, Hondas, Toyotas and Hyundais...

rockylee

grbeck: "I don't know what the UAW hopes to achieve by striking Delphi. The company is broke. I guess union members will get the satisfaction of taking the company down instead of making wage and benefit concessions, but if the UAW really believes that people out here are going to rally to their cause, they are in for a very rude awakening. If anything, they may end up inadvertently boosting sales of Nissans, Hondas, Toyotas and Hyundais... "

me: The Delphi workers, are hanging on by a thread. However that thread is very thick and the fiber is united.

They would rather crash and burn, then make $9.00-9.50 an hour and pay $640 a month in health insurance. They would qualify for government assistance at that wage and benefits.

If they wanted to be retrained, they wouldn't beable to afford to pay for it.
They help built the company, and they sure hell do have the right to take it out !!!

I guess we will see if ya'lls
"make believe" RESILIANT Dubya economy is so damn strong like many of you think.

Bottom Line :

If the Delphi workers are forced to work for acorns and strike, they can and will bring the United States to it's knee's, regardless of what any of you think !

They don't just make car parts for General Motors folks. They make medical equipment, military parts, cell phone parts, XM parts. Buh Bye--> Toyota !!!!! It to will be also will be braught to it's knees !!!!!!! How ?....Last time I checked Toyota buys there valve lifters from Delphi and has so for years. Along with Ford, Chrysler, Honda, Hyundai, Harley Davidson, John Deere, Mercury Engines, man I could go on.......

If any of you don't believe me, then just surf around the Delphi site for
awhile---> www.delphi.com <----and see if I'm really just blowing smoke !!!

We could temporary put this domestic issue to bed. Only if Congress would throw about $15 to 20 Billion at Delphi !!!!!.....If it's good for the airline and oil company's then it's good enough to help Delphi.
I just solved the problem and kept the U.S. economy afloat. :P

Take a look, and surf the Delphi site and see if Rocky is just really full of it ????? :surprise:

Rocky

plekto

Gheez - corporate bail-outs and welfare. Are you SURE you aren't a professional liberal whiner?

If a company can't survive on its own, hell if I want the government bailing their sorry rear ends out withmy tax money. If I had a failing business, you'd not see anyone come to its rescue, so why should Delphi be any different?

How about 20 million in free schooling for the employees so that they can get new skills instead? That would be a far better way to fix the problem.

callmedrfill

Just to throw in my Official Car Stance, in case that is ever questioned:

LOVE how Toyota went from Kia-status in 1969, to Lexus/World-Beater status in 1989. Toyoats are built for MAX profit and MAX reliability. Ride smooth and are easy to use.

My only issue with Toyota is they have decided to leave gaps in their line-up (HD trucks, affordable and not-so affordable sports cars, manual trannys). The 1993 Supra was a decade ahead of it's time, in style and performance. Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio? I would give a major body part for a Supra reincarnate, or a legit Evo X competitor!

Honda is Toyota for drivers! Can't make SUVs or Trucks, won't make V8s, but can do anything else with ease and excellence! Innovative and passionate. Not afraid to push themselves. In the car game, unlimited potential.

The only American car that I like is the Chrysler 300, and everybody already has one, so now that's out! It's the American Camry!

I dig Chrysler because they have the stones to build the best car they can, give it hardcore style, and let the chips fall where they may. Bean-counters get little say, except maybe on the interiors, which are cut-rate, without being GM-sorry.

Ford and GM will se it will get A LOT WORSE before it gets butter! They've EARNED junk-bond status, and can stay there for all I care. I grew up driving a Chevy Blazer, and it was a sled among sleds! No hard-working American deserves a 2nd-rate car from a 1st-world country! Period! :mad:

Cars like Colorado, 500, Uplander, Malibu are just wastes of iron. Without 3-5k incentives, who would be crazy enough to buy one? :confuse:

On the cutting edge of Mediocre? Is that the State-of-the Unions?

DrFill

callmedrfill

Same with Ford/GM!

If international trade is too far out of balance, fine. Fix that. But GM and Ford don't deserve any gifts from anyone! The American public has been more than giving, and has yet to be repaid in kind!!!

Thank You!

DrFill

rockylee

Well nobody griped when it was the airlines a few years ago, and nobody complained when it was most recently given to the oil industry whom were already making billions on $3 dollar plus gas. Wasn't your tax money used for them ?

The reason why the Government wouldn't bail you out, because you don't have the economic impact of someone like Delphi. Ahhh yeah, you would get bailed out, by filing for the thing called bankruptcy. My tax dollars have been used to bail out millions of american people that have started doomed buisness's. Call-me what you want, but I don't think being liberal has nothing to do with it. What I said about bailing out corporations tends to be a right-wing thing. I guess I have a little Rush Limbaugh in me after all. :confuse:

I blame the people that the slight majority elected into office. Those elected officials are most recently spicing up the Katrina bill, and delivered it with full of pork. I have went over the various reasons of why GM/Delphi have failed. Agree or disagree, this is a serious american issue.

Plekto, do you really think the vast majority of people in their 50's that are only a few years from retirement are going to find a replacement job that pays even close to equal. Hell half for that matter. Come-on, you are being unrealistic to really think that a company is going to hire used autoworkers regardless of skill. Hell most would be pushing 60 by the time they graduated from college with your "retrain scenario. The body breaks down when we are elderly, and nobody is going to risk on people in that age bracket. Especially factory, assembly lined worked bodies. The average age of a autoworker, is 54 plekto at GM.
I guess the retraining you are talking about perhaps might be of this variety: "Do you want a cart sir" or "Hello, welcome to Wal-Mart" ???

My goodness plekto, it's not that simple to just throw nearly retired people through college. These folks will lose there house, cars, and other stuff they've accumulated over the years. If the majority of autoworkers were in there early 40's or younger you then might have a good arguement for retraining.

I really have liked what you've said in most of your previous posts, but I guess this is where we for once strongly disagree. (I will continue to respect your judgement, because you've given lots of good talking points and different points of views.

Drfill: I think if the trade was even up, the Asians and Germans wouldn't have a auto-industry. I am for competition, and if the Asians had to build the majority of their factories over here to avoid a Tariff, then it's that much better for our economy. Atleast it would be a civil war, instead of a world war like we have now, and the Big 3 are getting attacked from all sides by a enemy that has superior weapons. No more undercutting with the Yen vs. Dollar exchange rate, and tariff all non-american made vehicles, would be a good start. That would give all competitors a equal playing field on our soil.

Well it was nice hearing ya'll opinions. The american people do deserve more. I guess if you want change, then make sure you "X" the correct box the next time, and look for a hanging Chad. :P

Rocky

gmctruck

I have read through almost every single thread in this forum and there have been some good discussions. Rocky, I find your perceptions and opinions amusing, but way off base.

You are quick to point fingers at the government and Bush blaming them for problems at GM/Delphi, but in the very next breath you expect the government to bail them out.
GM's problems began long before Bush ever stepped foot in the White House. I don't agree with everything he does, but to blame him for GM's woes is amusing at best.

I'm sorry but GM/Delphi are not the backbone of this country and we will survive even if they cease to exist in the future. Corporations and businesses are merged, bought, sold, or go out of business in this country every day. It's just a natural part of the business cycle that has been happening for generations.

There have many corporate mergers and major changes in almost every industry in this country during the past decade, so why should the auto industry be exempt? Most
companies can no longer afford no-cost free medical benefits for their employees, so why should UAW workers continue to get a free ride? So in short, GM and the UAW have not kept pace with the rest of corporate america. GM can no longer afford to pay a worker $30 an hour to install hubcaps and expect to remain competitive.

That about covers the labor issues, now lets talk about product quality or the lack there of. My family always owned GM products when I was growing up with a few Fords thrown in, but mostly GM. I have owned GM products for at least the last 25+ years and currently own a '99 GMC truck and a '99 Pontiac. I also own an '85 Volvo that we purchased new in 1985. I spend much more time fixing and repairing the two '99 GM vehicles than I do the 20 year old Volvo and my wife drives it every day. That 20 year old Volvo is more dependable than either of my late model GM vehicles will ever be. Why...? Because Volvo didn't cut corners and sacrifice quality like GM has done over the years.

You say GM quality has improved, but I disagree because I still see people complaining about the very same problems on late model vehicles that were found on the '99 model year vehicles. I'm sorry but it shouldn't take a major corporation several years to correct design or quality defects.

Now lets talk about customer service. GM depends too heavily on their dealer network to keep customers happy. My experience has been that the dealer is your friend until you buy the vehicle. The service department wants nothing to do with you during the warranty period unless you're paying them money out of your own pocket. That's because they don't make any profit on warranty repairs. Trying to get a GM dealer to do repairs under warranty is like pulling teeth. Oh and then there's that GM policy that says Chevy dealers can't do warranty repairs on GMC vehicles even though they are both basically the same vehicle with different trim on the outside. I told the service manager at the local Chevy dealer that my GMC truck might as well say Ford on it because I'm treated just as if it was a Ford product. It's just a BS policy meant to protect GM's franchised dealer network for the various brands and never mind the inconvenience or frustration this GM policy causes for it's customers.

I am a long time GM customer. How many times has GM called me and asked for my opinion on their products and services?....NEVER! GM has lost touch with their core customer base and their competition is gladly taking full advantage of it. If you don't talk to your customers and listen to what they're saying, then how can you know where the problems are or what products and services the customer wants or needs from your company? Hello....??
Are you listening GM.....??

As for recovery, GM is going the wrong direction. They are building many more new product models when they should be building less. How many different model vehicles does GM have compared to Honda or Toyota? I know from experience that if a product design team is working on too many new products at the same time, design quality will suffer and mistakes will find their way into production. GM needs to focus on a core set of products that are well designed and well built and stop trying to be all things to all people by building too many different low quality products that no one wants to buy without huge incentives.

GM can build a quality product... I know they can if they set their mind to it and focus on what their customers are saying and asking for. Show me a well designed quality
product and I will buy it. Show me a poorly designed low quality product and I won't buy it no matter what incentives they put out there. I'm still waiting GM!!
But not for much longer because I'm tired of spending much
of my free time and money to keep my current GM vehicles on the road... the problems never seem to end.

GM needs to make major changes in order to survive as a company. It will be very painful no doubt, but open bleeding wounds seldom heal without some pain involved.
I'm sorry that GM is in it's current situation, but they need to take a good long look in the mirror if they're looking for someone to blame and it's not Bush or the government.

lemko

I guess things must be different over at GMC because my Cadillac dealer's service department goes out of its way for me. The dealership from which my girlfriend bought her Chevrolet Impala would shame a Lexus dealer. Their shop is immaculate and modern and the customer service personnel are very courteous. The problem is, customer service varies too much among dealerships regardless of make. The surliest service personnel I've encountered were at Chrysler-Plymouth and VW. Everybody else was about average.

dieselone

Lemko,

I would say my dealership experiences mirror your own. Overall, I've had good luck with most dealerships I've dealt with. Nissan, Chevy, Ford, Saturn, Buick, Dodge, VW. They pretty much all treated me well. The Buick dealership I dealt with only once and they were pretty bad.

I wouldn't pin that on Buick, that dealer was also a Subaru dealership and ended up closing shortly after I dealt with them.

Overall, I'd say it's a crap shoot. Some dealers are good others are not. In my experience it seems the dealer that sell multiple brands seem to be the best. The dealer were I bought a Nissan Pathfinder in '01 also sold Olds, Jeep, Dodge, & Kia under the same roof and they always treated me well. It was actually nice to test drive the Pathfinder, Grand Cherokee, and Liberty all with the same sales person at the same dealer.

gmctruck

Out of the three local GMC dealers around here, only one of them has a service department that treats customers the way I expect to be treated, but they are the farthest one away from my home and work location. The other two are nothing but disorganized, unfriendly, unhelpful, and act like they are doing you a favor by just being there.

I went a few rounds with the local Pontiac dealer service department last week. The turn signals on my '99 Pontiac have been acting really crazy and not working correctly. I went to several auto parts stores trying to find a new flasher which would normally take care of such problems. There were none listed for my car at any of the auto parts stores I went to. Turns out that the flasher is part of the hazard signal switch, so the entire assembly must be replaced. After doing research on the net, I discovered that GM did issue a recall for the turn signal flasher on the 200-2001 model cars, but not the 1999 model year which had the same problem.

Several people that had the 1999 model year cars complained to NHTSA, so they opened another investigation. To satisfy NHTSA and close the investigation, GM issued a special policy letter that would cover the 1999 model year but there was no official recall issued.

After my initial phone contact with the dealer service department, they refused to return my calls. Armed with the NHTSA document, I stopped by the service department in person to discuss the situation. The service writer said he had to get the work approved and went to find the service manager. The service manager then comes over to me and says they could not do the work unless I paid for it because there was no recall issued. I explained to him that there was no recall issued for 1999 model year cars, but GM did issue a special policy letter to cover the repair work which was stated right on the NHTSA document that he was given. It was obvious that he didn't even read the document. After I read it to him word for word, he took it from me again and stormed off in a huff. The service writer returned several minutes later and said they had called GM and the repair would be covered under warranty just like the NHTSA document stated. It's sad that I had to get upset with them before they would even contact GM.

This is one of the core issues that are driving customers away from GM. Dealers must be held more accountable for providing service after the sale. Good dealer service should be rewarded and dealers who provide bad service should be penalized... but that doesn't happen because the problems continue to go on unnoticed by the big giants.

rockylee

http://www.cadillac.com/2007escalade/index.html

Best SUV in the world !

Rocky :shades:

gmctruck

I don't care too much for the boxy looking front end design. Cadillac used to have some nice looking classy designs, but now they all look like their on steroids.

grbeck

rockylee: They would rather crash and burn, then make $9.00-9.50 an hour and pay $640 a month in health insurance. They would qualify for government assistance at that wage and benefits.

It was my understanding that the pay initially quoted by Mr. Miller was to be a starting point for negotiations. It was not a final figure.

rockylee: They help built the company, and they sure hell do have the right to take it out !!!

If the blue-collar workers want to "take out" Delphi, I guess that they can do so...but they will only hurt themselves in the long run.

The UAW reminds me of a teenager who has lived with his parents and enjoyed a new car, cell phone, flat-screen television, nice clothes and gym membership, courtesy of the money earned by mom and dad. Now the parents have hit hard times, and they need to cut back, and junior says "NO!" and threatens to...burn the house down if he isn't permitted to live in the style to which he has become accustomed.

Doesn't make much sense from my perspective, but to each his own.

rockylee: If the Delphi workers are forced to work for acorns and strike, they can and will bring the United States to it's knee's, regardless of what any of you think !

Highly doubtful. At the most, a strike would cause temporary disruption. It isn't as though Delphi is the sole source of these parts. You don't think Toyota couldn't source these valve lifters from its other operations around the globe in an emergency?

Even if people can't get their new Hondas, Toyotas and Fords (or parts for them) because of Delphi strike, do you really think that those people are going to rally to the UAW cause? If so, you need to stop using Solidarity and union websites as your sources of information.

Right now, out here in the "real world," the Delphi situation is hardly front-page news. If a big strike against Delphi makes it front-page news, then most of the public's ire will be focused on the UAW.

Sorry, but the auto industry - let alone the world - no longer revolves around GM, Delphi and the UAW anymore.

rockylee

grbeck, Why should the UAW care what you think ? Really grbeck......
You like so many other "right-wing" people think unions are the devil and a bunch of gangsta's. You guys wish the worst for them, and hope they die.

I made my points clear, why they wouldn't work for peanuts, since Miller recieved a 3 million dollar sign on bonus, even though he is trying to make his $1 dollar salary the main focus.
The $3 million is never mentioned among the right wing media machine. Toyota and the manufactors could source their parts somewhere else, but not without alot of cost and time.

I guess as a middle class american, I want things to change. I hate globalization for various reasons. Globalization might make company's a huge profit temporarily, but the long-term is damage to my kids generation.

I am somewhat of a isolationist, and think we can be self sufficient. We lose so much darn technology to foreigners it makes me sick. This also includes military technology.
"that's the liberatarian in me speaking out"
I'm not a total left winger. I support the 2nd admendment and a few other right wing issues.
I just tend to side more with the left on the majority of the issues, especially on domestic ones.

I being a current and former union member have worked for both sides. In a non-union enviroment I always felt I couldn't speak out. I being a member once again feel I can do so without backlash. This includes safety issues that should be questioned.

As far as Delphi's Miller, using $9.00-9.50 and $640 as a starting point, I took that as a slap across the mouth and a lack of class by Delphi management. If he came out with $17 an hour and half the $640 a month as a starting point, that would of been some what respectable.

My father said if Delphi would take $19 a hour and a them paying a portion of their health insurance like they are at GM, then a deal could be reached. That would include Delphi keeping the pension and retirement benefits funded. So that would be a $8 dollar and hour pay cut and a $150 a month benefit cut. That would make them more competitive with other suppliers. He said the Union is willing to work with the company, but the company hasn't shown any concern for the employees that will have their lifestyles ruined by such huge cuts.
The old fashion statement of the more you make, the more you spend, is true. Delphi employees are no exception, and many will have to send their spouse's if they aren't working already into the workforce just to keep what they have.

I know sometimes grbeck, it's hard to support my views. I care about both company's (GM & Delphi) If they would learn from Bill Ford, they might achieve alot of concessions. Bill, back in the 90's asked the UAW, to take concession. He promised once they got on their feet once again, he would make it up to them. The rest is history, and he indeed kept his promise.

Rocky

rockylee

http://gmtv.feedroom.com/iframeset.jsp?ord=842659 :shades:

rockylee

It features a interview with General Manager of Cadillac.
When it brings up the sight, click on the Cadillac column in the left corner.

http://gmtv.feedroom.com/iframeset.jsp?ord=823792

Enjoy ----------->Rocky

rockylee

I hope ford has a "hit" with this new truck. Not much good news either lately for both ford and chrysler. I guess no news is better thn bed news !

rockylee

I hope ford has a "hit" with this new truck. Not much news either lately for both ford and chrysler. I guess no news is better than bed news !

grbeck

rockylee: grbeck, Why should the UAW care what you think ? Really grbeck......

The bigger problem here is that most people don't care what the UAW thinks. Look at the sales figures of vehicles from the transplants if you doubt that statement.

rockylee: You like so many other "right-wing" people think unions are the devil and a bunch of gangsta's. You guys wish the worst for them, and hope they die.

When have a posted those statements? I've even said that I understand why autoworkers unionized in the first place.

But I also said that any organization - union or corporation - has no right to survive, and must adapt to a changing market. The automobile market of 2005 is not the automobile market of 1965. The UAW can't seem to understand this message.

That's not right-wing thinking; that's common sense.

rockylee: I made my points clear, why they wouldn't work for peanuts, since Miller recieved a 3 million dollar sign on bonus, even though he is trying to make his $1 dollar salary the main focus.

If a leaner, meaner Delphi succeeds, Mr. Miller will be rich, and the UAW members will still have jobs.

If Delphi goes broke, Mr. Miller will still be rich, as he does not depend on any money received from Delphi (he was quite wealthy before joining Delphi).

UAW members, meanwhile, will be jobless and quite possibly broke. That's the message that UAW members need to ponder.

Worrying about how much money Mr. Miller has is a waste of time. He was rich before he came to Delphi, and he'll be rich when he leaves. And remember that he isn't responsible for the current mess...these problems were building long before he joined the company.

rockylee: Toyota and the manufactors could source their parts somewhere else, but not without alot of cost and time.

And if the choice comes down to spending the money or watching factories grind to a halt because of a parts shortage, Toyota will spend the money. Bet on it. And Delphi will lose the business forever.

rockylee: I am somewhat of a isolationist, and think we can be self sufficient. We lose so much darn technology to foreigners it makes me sick. This also includes military technology.

We've never been self-sufficient, even in automobile production. A big reason that the Big Three and the UAW are in this current mess is because for years they ignored clear signs that the foreigners were superior in engineering, design, quality control techniques and production technology.

An "isolationist" policy would have denied American car buyers these advances. Over the past 15 years we've experienced an incredible improvement in quality, performance, handling, safety and cleanliness in new vehicles, thanks to foreign competition.

rockylee: I being a current and former union member have worked for both sides. In a non-union enviroment I always felt I couldn't speak out. I being a member once again feel I can do so without backlash. This includes safety issues that should be questioned.

If what you are saying in the union environment is anything like your posts, the reason you feel comfortable "speaking out" is because you are towing the party line.

Let's see if I could speak out with sparking a backlash from union leadership or other union members. I highly doubt it.

rockylee: The old fashion statement of the more you make, the more you spend, is true. Delphi employees are no exception, and many will have to send their spouse's if they aren't working already into the workforce just to keep what they have.

How is Delphi management responsible for the spending habits of UAW members? If I spend lots of money, I wouldn't dream of demanding a raise from by boss to cover my bills.

rockylee: I know sometimes grbeck, it's hard to support my views. I care about both company's (GM & Delphi) If they would learn from Bill Ford, they might achieve alot of concessions. Bill, back in the 90's asked the UAW, to take concession. He promised once they got on their feet once again, he would make it up to them. The rest is history, and he indeed kept his promise.

William Clay Ford, Jr., did not assume control of Ford until 2001, when he ousted Jacques Nassar. And Ford was not asking workers to make sacrifices in the 1990s. Those were the boom years, when SUV sales were roaring along, and GM and Ford will still quite profitable.

rockylee

It was Bill Ford Sr. (grbeck)-Nassar yes was the CEO, but Uncle Bill was the owner. I remember reading the article in my Grandpa's UAW paper. The big end of the year bonus cash that the UAW employees recieved, was nearly as good as what Chrysler was getting. The Bonus was how he helped repaid them. My GM/Delphi employees were jealous of the Ford and Chrysler employees because they were getting around $10K a yr. in the 90's. My dad I remember was "grumbling," saying we are the biggest and sell the most, and we get nothing. That was because Jack Smith was lining his pockets, and didn't spread the wealth like ford and Chrysler.

Regardless, it's in the past. Delphi's Miller, is indeed rich. So if the company fails, he still got to walk away with $3 million in his brief case. :mad:

Rocky

rockylee

I think the Sky is plenty of the Solitice knock-offs, anymore would hurt GM. Saab already has a convertible. They just need to make it better !


Rocky

rockylee

http://www.detnews.com/2005/schools/0511/12/skuls-379858.htm

Free College for every Grad for the next 13 yrs. in Kalamazoo, Michigan. Being from Western Michigan, this is the kinda thing that will help the economic devistation of that city !

rockylee

Healthcare concessions pass !!!!

Good article:

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0511/12/autos-379586.htm

lemko

Kalamazoo, Michigan - once the home of Checker! Good God, the Checker is how ALL cars should be built! I would buy one of these new if they still built them.

rockylee

hahahaha !!!! :P

dieselone

I read the article and it sounds like a great idea for areas trying to attract employers and residents.

The program doesn't guarantee 100% college expenses for every student, but it definitely is impressive. I wonder if this sort of thing will catch on in other cities.