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The Big 3 and the domestic issues that will affect them
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Why do people keep saying these things?
Most of the metropolitan areas I know of are filled with neighborhoods with homes between $100,000 and $250,000. The middle class is fine and is not becoming extinct. Families can still live pretty well on salaries between $50,000 and $100,000.
Don't assume things are bad everywhere, just because of inflated real estate prices in California, New York, and Florida and because things are so bad in the heavily unionized upper midwest.
Terry, politics is a domestic issue. I will however try to keep em' to a mininum. I was just really mad yesterday about the CAFTA deal president Bush supports. It would be devistating to my working class family if it passed.
I started this forum and to spur interest. I tried to bring up several topics of disscussion and is why you see alot of posts by me. perhaps 40% might be correct, but it's a big issue that needs to be talked about. I really wanted ya'lls opinions on the domestic issues side of things. If your mad at a democrat because he tried to pass a law that you think is a issue related to the auto industry, by all means post it.
This forum is about freedom of speech and how you as individuals see things. It's not intended to be a forum of personal attack, but about true issues that may affect the auto industry both good and bad. Perhaps we might learn a thing or two. I sure have.
Rocky
P.S. sorry for not giving you enough paragraphs. :P
Nissan is having quality problems with some of their new vehicles also.
Yup, you are right. Even Toyota, Nissan, and Honda has their own problems. However, the difference is that these guys seem to know and admit that they have issues (though none as big or pressing as the domestics).
IMHO, GM/Ford upper management, on the other hand, seem to be clueless, scared/unwilling of change, or ineffective in carrying out any decisive action. As soon as they realize what world of trouble they are in, the sooner they can fix their problems.
Like the Indians who didn't see because they couldn't see the ships of Columbus on the sea’s horizon, you are blinded your comfort zone and some semblance of security.
Heavily unionized is not even a term that can be used anymore with such a small percentage of unionized workers. Corporate America and the powers that be now have the upper hand on the working class, at this point in history.
It’s all a matter of reality and whose reality are looking thru and yours ehaase, is a reality where things are still peaches and cream, at this point.
You have the elitist and the drones with the middle class fast being crushed and to say it isn't so only means "your" mind is closed to that reality, a reality millions can painfully see.
We're in for a period of even more public sacrifice for private good.
If people (by that I mean the Average Joe) can't afford to buy a mass market product like GM cars, they are doomed.
In my opinion it is the fault of #1 the unions, #2 Management, and #3 the workers. This is no means a blanket statement that all in these parties are at fault.
#1 The Unions: Plain and simple have made the big 3 uncompetative. Employee paychecks are diverted to a greedy group of individuals who mainly look out for themselves. If so much money wasn't going to these lobbyists, it could go to the employees. They have also pushed for so many perks that American employees don't expect to work. (#3) I'm sure we've all heard of the stories of employees reading magazines for hours of the workday since they've met their quotas and get mad at employees who actually try to put in a hard day's work. Basically it costs toyota a lot less to pay an empolyee the same amount of money. They get more work done in the same amout of time and don't have a lot of third parties to pay.
#2 Management: Simply put they have completely dropped the ball. The domestics are unable to adjust to the changing markets. People like new product and the big 3 take way too many years to update and adjust product. Also, why can't we get some decent warranties? ....and what's the deal with my Ford being made in Mexico while my neighbors Toyota is built right here in Indiana?
#3 The workers (and not all of them). As a resident of the upper midwest I know that a lot of high school grads with parents in the factories "Expect" to go make $40k + with thousands of benifits and not have to work for it. All they care about is doing the minimum and get out for the day. Our youth are incredibly lazy and don't have the work ethic of the past or those in other countries. (I know b/c i worked through multiple summers in local factories). This scares me every day, especially in our universities where beer and sex are more important than grades and learning.
That is my 2 cents.
I stopped being interested in domestic cars in the spring of 1999 (I was driving a good '97 Ford Escort sedan that I actually liked at that time) when I noticed this small foreign white car my buddy brought over(a white '99 Kia Sephia). He acted like it was fine but I saw a good deal of design integrity in it and started asking questions. I bought my '99 Kia Sephia for $7995 after rebates but in '99 Kia had not yet introduced the 10 year, 100,000 mile Long Haul Warranty. I got the reduced 5-year 60,000 mile warranty available then. Covered all the issues/repairs and/or recalls the Sephia brought up (which were not many and were handled for free and very quickly).
Besides, while my Sephia was being worked on I could ply the new cars on the Kia lot and enjoy mediocre coffee and sports on the dealer's TV. Tough life, eh?
SImply put, Kia and Hyundai and now Scion deliver more bang for my earned dollar than the domestics. My '01 Sportage has performed marvelously. I am now at 105,400 miles on it and have yet to burn out a light bulb! Anywhere on the 4x4! I also reached 102,000 miles on it's OEM Hankook SUV tires. There was still 1/16" tread on them, too, when I replaced them with some Japanese Toyo SUV tires! The former GM CEO Robert Lutz (father of the Pontiac Solstice) was asked what carmaker he thought GM should fear the most. Know which one he selected? The South Korean automakers!
GM was very smart and shrewd to pick up Daewoo for fire sale prices near the beginning of this century. It will pay them back handsomely.
Guess which students score the best compared to students around the world? The South Korean students do. It's true. Lots of bright minds graduating every year from South Korean high schools and colleges and some of them go to work for GM Daewoo Auto & Technology Co., Hyundai and Kia Motors.
The auto unions are at least partly to blame for the sludge produced by GM factories. Then again, Hyundai factories in South Korea were halted this past summer by a good-sized strike there, so, I'm not gonna harp on the rights and wrongs unions produce. To say that optimum results were achieved because of them would be to tell an outright lie, though. So I won't go that direction.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I have been on both sides of the fence, union and nonunion currently non. I agree with some but not all of your opinions. Your analysis is incomplete. What about taxes/immigrants/corporate greed where the rubber meets the road. It goes a lot deeper than laziness, try greed on for starters like the CEO's becoming billionaires for less than stellar performance for their the shareholders. Management bending to unions and their nonsense doesn't shore up the bottom line either.
Lazy, how can one be lazy when most don't have a decent paying job to be lazy at. You have corporate America exploiting workers with the help of this administration giving away the farm looking at today and forgetting about tomorrow and all the people who will be severely affected by today’s greed.
If the answer was as easy as workers being lazy, I could agree, but you’re wrong. I currently work in a big factory owned by one of if not the biggest corporation on this planet. We have people working 7 days 12 hours, and trust me they actually work for their money. If you don't work you’re out, no union to protect the lazy element that unions are good at doing. These people, men and women, are NOT lazy, they are driven by the fact they don't know how long it will last looking at the state of the world and want to get it while they can. It's a combination of good work ethic driven by pure fear, and rightly so.
Good American jobs for high-school and trade educated individuals are becoming harder to find all the time while China and other growing economy are being fed by the greedy element in this country making themselves billionaires and putting future generations at a terrible risk in the name of their own greed today. Globalization is nothing more than greed by the few who are becoming extremely rich giving away this country’s children’s futures. If simple laziness was the real problem, then it wouldn’t be so troublesome
I agree, laziness is not the whole problem, just a confounding factor. The big 3 have just allowed it to develope more than others. Toyota, Honda, and now Hyundai are doing well with their American factories...keeping quality up and paying fair wages while still making a profit. Unfortunatly the benefits reaped by previous workers are costing todays workforce dearly. Clearly some job is better than no job we are finding out. I challenge anyone to not shake their head at a lot of todays youth though. Somehow it seems like just because we are born in America we think we don't have to work hard to earn a living. Everyone in my family has been a teacher (not me) for years and has become extremely discouraged. Hopefully we will wake up and realize that hard work and ingenuity are to be rewarded.
You have the elitist and the drones with the middle class fast being crushed and to say it isn't so only means "your" mind is closed to that reality, a reality millions can painfully see.
The only reality is that these Edmunds boards have been taken over by struggling working folks in the Great Lakes states and upper mid west. We rarely hear from the good old posters like Magnetophone, logic1, and grbeck who could easily demolish these arguments.
In much of the country, the economy is prospering and incomes are higher.
It doesn't bode well for GM, or for anyone, in the long run.
The economy is indeed prospering in countless areas, but the benefits are narrower.
Magnetophone, logic1, and grbeck who could easily demolish these arguments.
So what? Why don’t “you” do it, that’s why God gave you a mind.
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fintail wrote:
In much of the country, the economy is prospering and incomes are higher.
Tell that to the MILLIONS working for just around $10-12 an hour. I laughed when I heard The Radio Factor Bill O Reilly saying the “average medium income” is 50 to 100 grand. He is disconnected from the masses, because most don’t even come close, working one job and 40 or 50 hours weekly that is, it just isn’t true. College graduates are having a time of it in parts in this country, what’s one to do, move like refugees to survive in this country because the few elitist say they should.
If things were as good as you pretend then the big three sure wouldn’t have needed to give away the farm to sell their inventory with big discounts and gimmicks to bring in the masses. After they ended those programs they laid off their salesman, why is that? Because the economy is booming?
I think too many are living in a self induced fantasy world where they feel safe and secure. A place where they won’t be effected by the insanity happening all around them. Like the little kid who held his hands over his eyes in order not to see the approaching train coming down the same railroad tracks he was sitting on, he felt safe, but was he really?
Fintail didn't write that...
And it's O'Reilly...the name alone instantly discounts the material
For instance, the ridiculous demands of the UAW and their medical benefit package that GM basically had to say yes to. Does anyone else think that that may be coming back to bite them in the hindquarters now?
Really, the medical industry is another high-cost issue that has a lot of corruption and is causing beaucoup problems in this country. I mean, for instance, does anyone else agree that a drug shouldn't cost so much from a drugmaker that played hit and miss with numbers and technicians and drug developers for several years? I know they deserve to be paid for their "miracle" drug, but must it cost so much? Just like the oil industry they feel they have Americans over a barrel so they way overcharge to make up for years of testing to come up with their helpful drug. It's way too much and it creates problems for automakers who are trying to pay employee's premiums and help them fill their prescriptions. It all snowballs into a large, expensive mess. If anyone else smells corruption in the FTC and F&DA and a few other government corporations...I...I mean organizations feel free to offer up your opinion in here. Just as long as you tie GM, Ford and Daimler-Chrysler and their problems into it to stay on topic AMAP.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
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If one looks at the "root" problem in all these truths, what does one find? If you believe what is written in the scriptures, therein lies the answer, and if not, you are part of the confusion and noise, nothing more than a tiny speck of the big problem of fallen man.
The blame game goes in full circle and when you step outside of the circle, you can see what's really happening.
Unions are overplaying their hand, and they are muscling their partners, auto management, right into the oblivion. The union and management HAVE TO be partners. It has to be win/win, or else....well, here we are.
Management has been getting beat by the unions for about 20 years now, about the same time the Japanese started beating them. Now union workers are getting paid to NOT work, and the Japanese are beating them to every punch in this fight. Like Holyfield vs. Tyson, heading for Round 8.
The incentive wars have only changed the rate and style of American auto descent. They have to pay for that, and now is the time. They have started this wheel of incentives, now they can't get off, even with lower prices and better product!
The workers are the least of the problem, but if you go to the Tahara plant in Tokyo, you will find swifter, sharper workers who are there to make the company look, thereby making themselves look good. But the workers can only be as good as the position management puts them in.
DrFill
It used to be where it only took one parent to provide for the family, and if the spouse worked outside of the home, it was a bonus. Now it takes 2 just get the basic needs to have a family.
What I'm trying to say is, we work actually too much and many lose alot because of it. I expect my President and Congress to restore the values of spending a decent amount of time with family. I unfortunatly think that's been lost. Unions are trying to protect a fair wage, benefits, retirement for the people they represent. Why don't the working class deserve to have a small slice of the pie for doing their part of making a small buisness into a empire. Why is it fair for a CEO to make tens of millions a year, because he has a MBA and knows the "right" people. :confuse:
It's like that some of you believe that this is ok. I don't care how successful a CEO is, he/she doesn't deserve $10+ million a yr. while the worker of the Big 3 only makes in the $50's on a 40 hr. week, asks for some decent insurance, and a retirement after 30 or more years for working for a company. If a capatalist society doesn't want to provide this type of work enviroment, then we the majority should get rid of it as a form of government in the U.S.A. !!!! They were arguing this topic on a popular talk show. The host was a devout Capatalist. The caller believes in socialism and lived in socialism for a short time. The caller said he believed socialism was a better overall form of government. He said it's not perfect, but the government protected both worker and company from slave labor competition. He said our system over here protects corporations, if they are willing to off shore their buisness. It was already common sense to me, and feel he made this point to a much larger audience. Some corperations like our form as it is. The ones that want to stay here, can't unless they have a unique product or service. Cars aren't unique, and it will be a matter of time when the Japanese company's feel the affect of capatalism. Like one of you stated in a earlier post. The koreans are booming, and they can do it cheaper than the Japanese. Next will be the Chinese and/or Indians, and they will build it better than the Japanese and Koreans at a significant cheaper price. The net result will be, the Japanese will build their cars somewhere else away from the U.S. to beable to compete. OR they will demand concessions from the U.S. workforce. That may or maynot spring a union on them. Depends if Unions exist or not in the future ????? At somepoint folks some of us will hate living in poverty and their will be a revolt in some scale. It might not happen for many years, but I feel it will happen.
I have my opinions, like all of you. I just feel the direction our way of living is facing a "gut check"
I don't know the perfect answer for all. I however know what class I am, and it's the majority. You can't put all the blame on the Unions and Management, but also have to hold the Government accountable for letting it get this far. The only way we can do our part is vote for who we think will do the best job. These are just a few of the many domestic issues that face not only our auto industry, and manufacturing, but also the average people of this great country.
Rocky
Oh, they WILL care when the streets are filled with marauding armies of the unemployed smashing up their imports in futile acts of anarchy and breaking into those fancy suburban homes they thought were so secure in a gated community guarded by a $6.50 an hour 80 year-old retired village cop.
Lazy? Shoot, the working class people I know I very far from lazy. Most are working two or three jobs just to get by. I make a comfortable living, but am always afraid that it will rapidly come to an end. I'm even working a part-time job, not because I have to, but God forbid, something happens to my regular job, I will at least still have a modest income.
What kind of America will our children live in? Well, mine will never know because they won't exist. I too worried about surviving the remainder of my life to worry about the future of my hypothetical children. If trends keep up, I see America going through a protracted Dark Age where the United States resembles some impoverished banana republic. The other alternative is a bloody revolution taking place sometime in the next 15 years.
What we have today is psychopathic predatory capitalism.
I believe in capitalism when it increases the quality of life for the majority of people rather than what we have today - for the benefit of the few at the expense of the many. This will never happen, but one way to really spur the world economy is simply to forgive everybody's debt. Too much money is spent simply to facillitate the interest on those debts. All that money produces nothing except to make guys who already have too much richer.
lemko: It's really sad isn't it pal. I hope you never have to go through, what some of my immediant family memebers are facing. Hang in their pal, and wish you the best. I feel you are correct in all of the above. :sick:
Rocky
Good God, Dad was nearly 60 years-old! Who else was going to hire such an old man? My Dad was in good health, but he spent about 2 years doing a series of humiliating low-paid work until he found something decent. He was a dishwasher at Applebee's, a telemarketer, and a clerk in the electrical department at Lowe's. Dad did go to technical school to learn the electrician's trade so he wasn't sitting on his butt crying about it. My Mom, however, felt a lot of turmoil. Fortunately, all us kids were grown-up and their mortgage was paid, so things weren't nearly as bad as they could've been.
My Dad did get a job with Quaker Oats until he retired about two years ago. Quaker was a great place to work at the time, but Dad said they were just bought-out by Pepsi and things were changing for the worse just before he retired. He would've had an excellent retirement had he worked for Quaker all this time.
One thing I do remember is that we kids never wanted for anything. We got to go places and spend a lot of time together as a family. Mom only worked part-time because it was her choice, not that she had to. I think my generation of kids was the last to have spent any quality time with their parents. I really feel sad for today's kids.
It almost sounded like he worked for General Electric. Go on Vacation and come back with no job. They at GE wouldn't tell them that they've been replaced. They'd (supervisor) walk in and find that their office is occuppied by
"that young replacement" that didn't know his [non-permissible content removed] from a hole !!!!
When the older supervisor questioned what he did wrong, they instantly said leave or we will call security.
My Grandmother and family whom worked for GE for years until it went to singapore said that they felt sorry for their supervisors which many had college students or kids still at home with no job. :mad:
I can't believe how somebody could do that to someone else. It's really sad, we have gotten so greedy as a society.
My Stepfather lost his job a few years ago at Rowe International #1 (Juke Box) manufactor. Went from a card carrying Journeymen Maintence Mechanic making $22 an hour, to making $12 at a small company making machinery. My mother also lost her Job at Rowe and went from making $16-17 to $9 at Gentex Corp. After 3 years she is making $12 and change with awful benefits and basically no retirement.
They got up their a few weeks ago and ran Unions in the ground and braged how they were non-union and they didn't have to worry about their jobs. A oppertune time to take another shot at unions. My mom bit her lip and tongue, and wanted to say, that's why we bust our [non-permissible content removed] for peanuts here. Only the select priviledge like you sir get paid a fair wage. :mad:
I was personally very upset that they could take such a cheap shot at workers facing job losses.
"The question people got to ask themselves is when is my concession coming for my company" Some of these folks think they are invisible to the current corperate philosophy. Well they won't feel that way when they are told to clean out their desks and/or lockers because they've been replaced by a immigrant from India.
Sorry lemko, that's a sad story that many of us working class americans might see. Your dad was only the beginning of a long end that hasn't came yet.
However the Delphi workers like my father are going to fight for us middle class working folks!!!!!
http://www.detnews.com/autosinsider/index.htm
A couple of articles that are must reads:
Thanks
Rocky
Rocky
****
You honestly are that naive'?
Don't expect the wealthy to care about anyone but themselves. If you want a real Congress or President, then elect normal people for a change and not billionares.
I'd like to know where that came from
Thanks!
But it does raise an issue for GM, and the old idea I like, about GM buying their own health insurance company and managing it, and reaping the financial rewards while dealing with the healthcare issues it faces. Hell, it'd be better than the Fiat deal anyway, I am sure.
The reality is - socialized medicine would be there if you needed it, but you'd still have the exact same medical coverage as you have now, if you have it. Best of both worlds - if you are retired or poor, you get better care, though, yes, it does suck, but stil not a quarter what a county hospital does.
If you have medical coverage, you aren;t eligible, but get superior service. At least nobody is without some sort of coverage.
But, unfortunately, America has an astounding amount of hubris at all levels. We can't do anything like any other nationor learn from them - the rest of the WORLD has to be inferior and we have to do it our way.
So we crash and burn compared to the others who cooperate. The Auto Industry is just the latest victim.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Me: You hit the nail on the head Plekto !!!
NEWAYS,
I wasn't trying to be naive even though it came across that way.
I am just very sad about our auto-industry. I see lots of good folks faced with having to work to they die, because they will need health insurance and a retirement. Yeah we can say the auto workers should of done a better job preparing for retirement and not counted on their pension as a sole source of income. I know lots of people that have a 401K, including myself. Alot of them don't have the extra money to put the maximum amount in it for various reasons. Some that are offered only make $12-16 and hour and with 2 kids or so it doesn't leave alot of extra dough for investing. I however am fortunate enough I make enough extra $$$$$ to invest for my retirement. I currently have about $43K in it. I do get a company match of 10%. I however feel with the outsourcing of America, my shares of stock won't off-set inflation and the cost of living. I feel I would be extremely lucky to have $300-500K
at my elgible current retirement age of 55. I luckily will inherit quite a bit of money, so I won't be in a tough spot like so many of my fellow americans.
Socialism in Canada is a decent system. I'm sure some Canadians would agree it's far from perfect, but it's better than our Capatalist system over here in the states. It almost sounds like some of you believe their are
"no rich" people in Canada or in Socialized Europe. Well I've been to Canada a few times, and I can tell you first hand their is indeed rich and wealthy folks, and mostly a strong middle class. The Canadians I met were from all different classes, but on my trip their I never saw any starving street people. However most of the people I met were working people like myself, that were having a good time with friends and family. The right-wing media does protrays socialism as the same as communism, and you will live like Russians standing for hours to get just a meal.
Russia I believe will someday have a good economy, but it will take years to rebuild and invest in the country. They have lots of oil, natural resources and more fertile farm land than us. Then maybe they will beable to afford to buy American Cars.
The Big 3 does buisness in socialized country's because most of them are highly educated. They get plenty of people that go to college for free on the government, which the company doesn't have to pay for. They have their health insurace paid for by the government. And if you look at overall socialism, they don't have a over regulated expensive form of government. Our FDA is another example of ultra expense to corporations. It takes 10 or more billion dollars to build a nuclear power plant here in the U.S. and you wonder why electricity is so darn expensive. It takes a few billion to get all the permits to just attempt such a feat. After years of going through all the hoops and ladders you finally might beable to break ground. "I know this because I used to work at one."
Michael Savage might say socialism and liberalism is a mental disorder. I like what the guy says on alot of subjects, and he indeed thinks outside of the far right box. I am not willing to take his full prescription, because I do disagree with the Doctor on some issues.
What all of this has to do with the auto-industry is simple. I was trying to explain "why" it's so tough for a company to do buisness in the United States and why also Capatalism isn't buisness friendly. Our Capatalism doesn't protect workers with content laws with a certain percentage of the product and/or company being produced or run over here. Toyota and other Asian cars would be ok by me to do buisness over here since they do build a certain percentage of their product here in the U.S. Yes they do create jobs, but unfortunatly the money goes back to there homeland and doesn't all stay here. It's sad that they are building cars here and Canada while our domestic manufactors are moving out. The Big 3 can't use the excuse of having to pay new legacy costs because they already reached a deal with the UAW to freeze any new participants in the define benefit plan in 99'. I saw it a couple days ago referenced again in the Detriot News Paper saying the new auto workers are 401K only. If Toyota can stay in the U.S. and turn a profit, why can't the Big 3. I know the U.S. gave the Asians multi-billions in tax breaks to build new assembly plants here. Why isn't our government doing the same to keep the big 3 here ???? If it's good enough for the oil industry, then it's good enough for the auto-industry.
I appreciate reading ya'lls opinions and keep up the good work. I might disagree with some of them, but feel many of you have a good "head" on your shoulders and have listed many good solutions. I hope Congress will take our domestic issues serious. I'm afraid they will be naive and will do nothing to help american large and small buisness get through this troubling time. Taxbreaks alone won't solve the average company's problems, because it's going to take alot more than that to solve these domestic issues.
Happy Posting,
Rocky
The Big 3 got taught another lesson on how to build a great inspiring car that even this critic would love to own. http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/displayPage.action?pageParameter=modelsMain&vehicleCode=MS- - - 6
I hope GM has their R&D working overtime, because if they aren't they will flounder like the Titanic. :mad:
Rocky
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0511/08/C06-375918.htm
That's an interesting comment..considering that the left has held up Europe in general, and France in particular, as the example of what America should be doing to supposedly PROTECT the middle class. The French have been quite vocal in condemning the "Anglo-Saxon model" of economics, by which they mean the policies of free trade, free markets and less regulation of the economy practiced in varying degrees by the United States and Great Britain.
During the 1992 riots in response to the Rodney King verdict, Jacques Chirac quite famously argued that the riots were the result of the Reagan-Bush economic policies and America's innate racism. Such a thing could NEVER happen in France, because of its liberal economic policies and more tolerant outlook. In view of recent events, looks he spoke a little bit too soon?
France has pursued a policy of protecting local industries (for years Japanese cars were kept out of France to protect the auto industry); heavily subsidizing industry to prevent job losses; providing generous welfare benefits to most citizens, but especially poor immigrants; and mandating a 35-hour work week.
In other words, France has done EXACTLY what critics of America's economicy policies (not to mention few posters on this site) have held up as the right path. The idea that French economic policy is designed to gut the middle class is nonsense. (Of course, we are talking about INTENTIONS here, not actual results, which are another matter entirely.)
For anyone on the left to suddenly criticize France as an example of free markets gone wild...well, I haven't witnessed a bigger switcheroo since I watched a Discovery Channel show about an ex-Marine who went into the operating room as a "he" and came out as a "she."
The result? Unemployment about double that of the U.S., slower economic growth, and an economy that can't generate enough jobs to employ all of those immigrants. Couple those factors with a policy that herds these mostly Muslim immigrants into dreary suburbs ringing the major cities, and you have the tinder that is just waiting for the spark to cause major riots throughout the country.
Considering that there are HUNDREDS of millions of people in this country, and that the cost of living varies greatly from region to region, the fact that millions are working for $10-12 an hour is hardly an idictment of our economic system.
deans1: I laughed when I heard The Radio Factor Bill O Reilly saying the “average medium income” is 50 to 100 grand. He is disconnected from the masses, because most don’t even come close, working one job and 40 or 50 hours weekly that is, it just isn’t true.
And your source that his quote isn't true is found where...?
Also, he probably said "average MEDIAN income," and median means "middle." That figure sounds plausible, although I don't look to Bill O'Reilly as a guide to matters economic.
deans1: College graduates are having a time of it in parts in this country, what’s one to do, move like refugees to survive in this country because the few elitist say they should.
Well, if by "having a time of it," you mean "having to actually hustle and look for a job," then most of us have "had a time of it," because I know of very few people who have had employers call them with job offers. That generally is not the way the job market works in this country.
And if those college graduates received degrees in "Women's Studies" or psychology, then they are really going to have a time of it when they have to look for a job. The problem there is that someone didn't check out the market demand for degrees in that particular field.
deans1: If things were as good as you pretend then the big three sure wouldn’t have needed to give away the farm to sell their inventory with big discounts and gimmicks to bring in the masses.
No, GM, Ford and Chrysler need to "give away the farm" when selling their products because:
1. In most cases, their products are inferior to the competition, so people are less inclined to buy them;
2. Despite this fact, they overproduce them anyway, because of union contracts and the desire to maintain market share, which means that they then have to get rid of them; and
3. Because of factors #1 and #2, their customer base has become accustomed to rebates and incentives, and, not being stupid, knows that more rebates are always around the corner, so they won't buy a new product from the Big Three without them.
Please note that Ford does not need heavy incentives to move the Mustang. Chrysler does not need heavy incentives to move the Chrysler 300C. GM has a waiting list for the Pontiac Solstice.
And, among the tranplants, Honda is selling Civics as fast as they arrive on the lot.
The message here is that the problem is the PRODUCT, not the economy.
deans1: I think too many are living in a self induced fantasy world where they feel safe and secure. A place where they won’t be effected by the insanity happening all around them. Like the little kid who held his hands over his eyes in order not to see the approaching train coming down the same railroad tracks he was sitting on, he felt safe, but was he really?
The problem with the above quote is that it accurately describes UAW leadership and certain managers at GM, and, to a lesser extent, Ford, although I don't think that is what you meant...
The biggest problem isn't so much that we work so many hours and long weeks, but the lack of Vacation time we get in this country and by employers. In Norway it is law that people get a automatic month of paid vacation.
They also don't have to work Mandatory Weekends because that is time spent with his/hers family. Weekends are optional from what I remember my Norweigan relatives saying. They said that's why ya'll die from stress, because you never get time off to enjoy life outside of the workplace. I have to agree with them. They spend lots of time with family and friends over there, but when they do work, it 110% with Norweigan pride and craftsmenship. Yes the Norweigans have socialism, but they are also the most wealthiest country in the world per capita.
(unless Switzerland just passed them)-I'm thinking back, because I think Switzerland passed them as #1 a few weeks ago. Neways they were running neck and neck for a long time.
What this explains in general, is look at German Engineering in cars and Machinery. You have to argue they are the best in the world. They have socialism as a form of government and a extremely strong labor union force. The Germans know how to build and engineer cars and machinery. They are flat out intellegent people. Hell they made the LT-4 Corvette ZR-1 engine that some people say is the best engine ever made.
Yeah they have a big unemployement rate, because they never shut off the immigration faucet either. However Germany will continue to thrive and build good cars and improve machinery and other technologies. We however could learn a few lessons from them. There education system is one of the best in the world. "There employers also treat the employees like human beings with company breakfast to nurture the mind, and beer to nurture the soul" :P
Does it work ???? I'd say so, looking on the outside in.
Germany is proof that you can have labor unions, and still turn a profit in automobiles. However they don't have a out of control healthcare system, and pharmaceutical industry, etc. either gouging the company's insurance provider. Why ? Because they don't have to provide that added cost.
Bottom Line:
It's just so weird how a GM car and car parts, built in a socalist country like Germany can turn a profit, while we lose money building them here. GM has to pay a butt load in taxes too, but I guess they don't have so much interference from the German government which off sets those costs I guess.
Keep up the good posts
Rocky
National unemployment figures remain low...Delphi is not the auto industry, and, in turn, the auto industry does not represent the entire economy.
GM and Ford are largely concentrated in the industrial Midwest. There are no plants here in Pennsylvania. So, there won't be any hordes of unemployed auto workers coming to my neighborhood any time soon.
And, if perchance they did, they will quickly discover that I'm not going be bullied by unemployed auto workers or anyone else when it comes to choosing a new vehicle.
And it is not only the well-to-do buying Hondas, Toyotas and Nissans. There are plenty of those vehicles in middle class and even lower-middle class neighborhoods around here.
Despite the wailing that what is happening to Delphi workers serves as the canary-in-the-mineshaft for the blue-collar middle class, the simple fact is that most blue-collar workers around here don't enjoy wages or benefits anywhere near those enjoyed by UAW members. The only blue-collar workers who did were those who worked for Bethlehem Steel and USAir...both of which filed for bankruptcy. Think there might be a connection?
Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes, BWM and Hyundai - not to mention their American-based suppliers - are employing thousands of Americans at good wages. The Japanese and the Koreans are also expanding their engineering and design facitlies in this country. That means more white collar jobs for Americans.
Sorry, but it isn't 1965 anymore. The American auto industry is no longer limited to GM, Ford and Chrysler.
The auto industry is constantly changing. Since when is it written in stone that three major companies must control 85 percent of the market? Since when is it written that the UAW must represent 100 percent of the people who assemble new vehicles?
Yes, a portion of the profits from those American plants returns to Japan and Korea. But GM and Ford have wholly owned subsidiaries in Europe, Mexico, South America and Australia. Over the years, a fair amount of the profits generated by those subsidiaries has replenished the coffers in Detroit and Dearborn - or even kept the parent company afloat (as Ford of Europe did for Ford in the early 1980s, when the North American operations were gushing red ink).
I don't recall the residents of those countries complaining about "their" auto industry being invaded by American interlopers. Americans sound like crybabies on this issue.
I'm tired of whining by Americans. The transplants are here to stay, they are showing us a better way to design, engineer and build new vehicles, and if GM, Ford and the UAW are too stubborn or clueless to learn, I have no sympathy for them.
The simple fact is that our labor contracts are uncompetitive and the leadership of GM and Ford is too dominated by finance-oriented individuals who have no feel for a changing market. Of course, it doesn't help that loyal domestic customers make every excuse under the sun for the home team:
*currency manipulation, even though Honda and Toyota sales keep increasing, whatever the yen is doing today;
*the commie-pinko-Toyota-loving-liberals at Consumer Reports;
*free-trade policies pursued by America while Japan's market remains closed (as if the Japanese would really buy a Saturn Ion or Chevy Malibu, considering that neither has sent Americans rushing to the dealerships).
Sometimes I think that GM product planners read these boards, print the postings of GM apologists and take them to their superiors and say:
"There really isn't any problem. Using that 3.8 V-6 in the Lucerne will not affect our ability to entice people out of a Lexus. It doesn't matter that the 'first ever' Pontiac G6 will have a mediocre 3.5 ohv V-6 and no uplevel versions when it debuts against the VWs and cheaper Acuras. And it makes perfect sense to price the top-level LaCrosse at $30,000+, even though comparable Accords and Camrys are considerably cheaper. And the public doesn't notice when we piously swear off rebates one month and quickly reinstate them when sales plunge."
This is not George Bush's fault; it is not the transplants' fault; and it is not the fault of people who buy vehicles from the transplants.
The key isn't where the immigrants come from...it's whether the economy grows enough to assimilate them, and whether the culture is vibrant and tolerate enough to accept them. This is true whether the immigrants come from Mexico or Algeria.
In this regard, the free-market U.S. economy and more freewheeling U.S. culture is doing a much better job than the heavily regulated economy and more "distinctive" culture of France.
rockylee: The biggest problem isn't so much that we work so many hours and long weeks, but the lack of Vacation time we get in this country and by employers. In Norway it is law that people get a automatic month of paid vacation.
But there are only so many hours in a week...if vacation time expands, work time has to shrink. And vice versa.
rockylee: Germany is proof that you can have labor unions, and still turn a profit in automobiles.
I have no problem with labor unions...I understand why workers unionized in the first place. The auto plants were brutal places to work.
However, I also believe that no organization - whether it's a union or a business - has a "right" to survive. It must adapt to a changing marketplace.
The UAW appears to have lost sight of the fact that it exists because customers buy products from GM, Ford and Chrysler, and it depends on the profits from those transactions as much as the parent company does. When GM, Ford and Chrysler are healthy, so is the UAW.
To demand that GM and Ford continue paying 100 percent of healthcare benefits for UAW members, or maintain the Jobs Bank when they are losing BILLIONS, is ridiculous. What are GM and Ford supposed to do - use Monopoly money?
The UAW exists to serve the paying customer - not the other way around.
rockylee: However they don't have a out of control healthcare system, and pharmaceutical industry, etc. either gouging the company's insurance provider. Why ? Because they don't have to provide that added cost.
Germany is struggling with surging health care costs, too, it's just that the costs are spread throughout society. A few employers are not bearing the brunt of the cost increases. A recent article in The Wall Street Journal noted that an increasing number of Germans are losing coverage, because the state can't afford to provide it.
rockylee: It's just so weird how a GM car and car parts, built in a socalist country like Germany can turn a profit, while we lose money building them here. GM has to pay a butt load in taxes too, but I guess they don't have so much interference from the German government which off sets those costs I guess.
GM was losing money until recently in Europe, and a big part of the reason why it regained profitability is because it is sourcing more production from lower-cost Eastern Europe.
For that matter, VW is losing money, too. When it came time to pick a site for production of the new VW SUV, it told the German unions that they either help it reduce costs, or production would take place in Portugal.
Mercedes also recently demanded concessions from its German unions, as it is losing money hand-over-fist.
So, all is not rosy in Germany.
Delphi is not the Auto-Industry ???? what's 90% of their buisness then ??? Farming ????
Come-on grbeck !
So you are basically saying the answer is paying folks minunum wage. $16 an hour is basically poverty. It might buy you a Kia and a shack in a rough neighborhood if you have to basically provide portion of your own retirement and health benefits out of your check . The UAW workers at the Big 3 make a wage range in the $50's if they work 40 hrs. So they are over paid, because perhaps you don't make that much. I'm am definitly tired of the Jealousy factor of people who want to run the UAW workers in the ground because they were fortunate enough to get a good paying job and contributed to this country.
So you also must find it ok for my Tax dollars to subsidize Multi-Billions of dollars in Tax revenue to get the Asians to build a factory here to run GM out of Buisness. Why doesn't our government reward domestic manufactors like they do foreign company's With those Billions ????? If GM got the same deal, then we wouldn't be debating this issue. Why reward a oil industry that was already making record profits with Billions of dollars in George Dubya Bush & Govt. handouts ?????
I am not blaming the Asians for taking advantge of it, however I do blame the Administration and the ones in power for selling out GM and the american auto-industry. No wonder why they don't have any money for R&D :mad:
We were originally talking about income. I'm not seeing how gross domestic product per capita fits in with that discussion.
***
Yet ask people who they voted for.
As if everyone who wasn't Forrest Gump's lost twin couldn't tell that this was going to happen. Rich arrogant kid - of course he's going to think only about himself. Rockefeller and Carnegie and the like also were identical - put on a good show for the public, but were only in it for the money.
State 1980 1990 1995 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004
Alabama $7,465 $14,899 $19,683 $22,054 $22,972 $23,521 $24,477 $25,128 $26,338 $27,795
Alaska 13,007 20,887 25,798 27,835 28,629 29,642 31,027 32,151 33,568 34,454
Arizona 8,854 16,262 20,634 24,206 25,173 24,988 25,878 26,183 26,838 28,442
Arkansas 7,113 13,779 18,546 21,167 22,233 21,995 22,750 23,512 24,289 25,725
California 11,021 20,656 24,496 28,163 29,856 32,149 32,655 32,996 33,749 35,019
Colorado 10,143 18,818 24,865 29,994 31,533 32,434 33,455 33,276 34,283 36,063
Connecticut 11,532 25,426 31,947 37,338 39,543 40,702 42,377 42,706 43,173 45,398
Delaware 10,059 19,719 25,391 29,383 30,701 31,012 32,166 32,779 32,810 35,861
DC 12,251 24,643 33,045 36,415 39,130 38,838 40,539 42,120 48,342 51,803
Florida 9,246 18,785 23,512 26,845 27,781 27,764 29,048 29,596 30,446 31,455
Georgia 8,021 17,121 22,230 25,839 27,324 27,794 28,523 28,821 29,442 30,051
Hawaii 10,129 20,905 25,584 26,759 27,533 27,851 29,034 30,001 30,913 32,160
Idaho 8,105 15,304 19,630 22,079 22,871 23,727 24,506 25,057 25,911 27,098
Illinois 10,454 20,159 25,643 29,853 31,138 31,856 32,990 33,404 33,690 34,351
Indiana 8,914 16,815 21,845 25,163 26,157 26,933 27,522 28,240 28,783 30,094
Iowa 9,226 16,683 21,181 24,745 25,598 26,431 27,225 28,280 29,043 30,560
Kansas 9,880 17,639 21,889 25,537 26,705 27,374 28,432 29,141 29,935 30,811
Kentucky 7,679 14,751 19,215 22,183 23,227 24,085 24,878 25,579 26,252 27,709
Louisiana 8,412 14,279 19,541 22,206 22,839 23,090 24,454 25,446 26,100 27,581
Maine 7,760 17,041 20,240 23,499 24,582 25,380 26,853 27,744 28,831 30,566
Maryland 10,394 22,088 26,896 30,557 32,517 33,482 35,279 36,298 37,331 39,247
Massachusetts 10,103 22,248 28,051 33,496 35,527 37,704 38,864 39,244 39,815 41,801
Michigan 9,801 18,239 23,975 26,885 28,104 29,127 29,629 30,296 30,439 31,954
Minnesota 9,673 18,784 24,583 29,263 30,742 31,935 33,059 34,071 34,443 35,861
Mississippi 6,573 12,578 17,185 19,776 20,686 20,900 21,653 22,372 23,448 24,650
Missouri 8,812 17,407 22,094 25,150 26,404 27,206 28,221 28,936 29,252 30,608
Montana $ 8,342 $14,743 $18,764 $21,229 $21,997 $22,518 $24,044 $25,020 25,920 $26,857
Nebraska 8,895 17,379 22,196 25,924 27,047 27,630 28,861 29,771 30,758 31,339
Nevada 10,848 20,248 25,808 29,200 31,004 29,506 30,128 30,180 31,266 33,405
New Hampshire 9,150 20,231 25,008 29,480 31,325 33,169 33,969 34,334 34,702 37,040
New Jersey 10,966 24,182 29,277 34,383 35,612 37,118 38,625 39,453 40,427 41,332
New Mexico 7,940 14,213 18,852 21,164 21,836 21,931 23,081 23,941 25,541 26,191
New York 10,179 22,322 27,721 32,108 33,901 34,689 35,878 36,043 36,574 38,228
North Carolina 7,780 16,284 21,938 25,181 26,417 26,882 27,308 27,711 28,235 29,246
North Dakota 8,642 15,320 19,084 22,892 23,273 24,708 25,798 26,982 29,204 31,398
Ohio 9,399 17,547 22,887 26,073 27,171 27,977 28,699 29,405 29,944 31,322
Oklahoma 9,018 15,117 19,394 21,964 22,958 23,650 24,945 25,575 26,656 28,089
Oregon 9,309 17,201 22,668 25,912 26,958 27,660 28,222 28,731 29,340 29,971
Pennsylvania 9,353 18,884 23,738 27,469 28,619 29,504 30,752 31,727 31,998 33,348
Rhode Island 9,227 19,035 24,046 28,262 29,335 29,113 30,256 31,319 31,916 33,733
South Carolina 7,392 15,101 19,473 22,372 23,538 24,000 24,840 25,400 26,132 27,172
South Dakota 7,800 15,628 19,848 23,715 25,041 25,958 26,566 26,894 29,234 30,856
Tennessee 7,711 15,903 21,800 24,437 25,548 25,946 26,808 27,671 28,455 30,005
Texas 9,439 16,747 21,526 25,369 26,834 27,752 28,472 28,551 29,372 30,222
Utah 7,671 14,063 18,858 22,240 23,276 23,436 24,033 24,306 24,977 26,606
Vermont 7,957 17,444 21,359 24,602 25,845 26,848 28,756 29,567 30,740 32,770
Virginia 9,413 19,543 24,456 28,063 29,794 31,120 32,338 32,922 33,671 35,477
Washington 10,256 19,268 23,878 28,719 30,380 31,230 31,976 32,677 33,332 35,299
West Virginia 7,764 13,964 17,913 20,185 20,921 21,738 22,862 23,688 24,379 25,872
Wisconsin 9,364 17,399 22,573 26,284 27,370 28,100 29,196 29,923 30,898 32,157
Wyoming 11,018 16,905 21,514 24,312 26,363 27,372 29,587 30,578 32,808 34,306
United States 9,494 18,667 23,562 27,203 28,546 29,469 30,413 30,906 31,632 32,937