BMW 3-Series Run Flat Tires

shipo

I don't think BMW has done anything. That said, at BMWs insistence Bridgestone did change the rubber compound of the OEM EL42s, and they've also started using Continental RFTs that most owners report are superior in every way to the Bridgestones.

Best Regards,
Shipo

dan12

Speaking strictly for myself, yes, I would that BMW redesigned the floor pan of the trunk to accept a full sized spare tire and a jack, and started using GFT tires as standard equipment on all of their cars.

I would like to second that. There are two main problems I see with the RFTs (ignoring the noise issue with the Turenza's): (1) No spare, which is a real concern on long trips to remote places. (2) The tires are often not repairable and have to be replaced instead, which can get extremely expensive.

BMW could have at least offered #1 (a spare) as an option. That would have addressed most of my concerns, although I am still really worried about getting a flat since a nail can cost me $300+.

Mr_Shiftright

You can repair the RFTs unless the nail hits the sidewall (which is rather rare). My local tire shop does these all the time for the BMW dealer. The dealer won't do it.

circlew

I submit you can repair but after riding on an RFT for the recommended zero pressure condition miles, do you still recommend repair?

Regards,
OW

kywoody

Thanks. I agree with the general negative comments on the RFTs but if the tires you get on the new cars give a better ride and are more durable, it makes the BMW a more reasonable choice, especially with limited driving in remote places.

capriracer

With all due respect to your "highly respected tire retailer", but RFT's will not show the damage that is being done by operating the tire flat. The damage is hidden under the supporting insert and can not be seen. Repairing a RFT involves some degree of risk, and since there is no way to proper assess how much damage has been done, I hope the "highly respected tire retailer" realizes he has assumed the risk and has good insurance.

Mr_Shiftright

I'm sure he knows what he's doing. He's been doing it for 40 years and outfits race cars, Ferraris, etc. I would guess that he examines each tire carefully and interviews the drivers about what happened. He seemed quite matter of fact about it...no big deal to repair RFTs that take a nail. He seemed more concerned over the proper training of his technicians who handle the machines that break down the RFTs.

circlew

Breaking the bead/seating the bead, mounting/remounting on the alloy wheels is the area of concern because the damage done is high value to the shop due to improper technique/equipment.

Regards,
OW

Mr_Shiftright

Oh yeah, you can do damage so many ways on an RFT. You can damage the wheel, you can break the sensor, and you can damage the RFTs sidewall....all in a few seconds.

shangti

While you can repair an RFT you have to find someone other than the dealer, because they won't repair the RFT. Plus, some tire shops won't repair a RFT. Since there have been so many complaints with RFTs, I suspect that BMW is aware of the issue and could have addressed it, prior to placing them on the 328. In fact, Toyota consumers faced the same problem regarding RFTs in 2005.http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=7on_your_side&id=3463443

There ended up being a class action from Toyota Sienna owners against Toyota and Goodyear. There ended up being a settlement http://www.rftprogram.com . Recently, there was another class action lawsuit filed against another car manufacturer - http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/11/automobiles/11FLATS.html?em&ex=1190433600&en=4- 497fc78a38f28bd&ei=5087%0A

I believe there is a class action lawsuit against BMW on RTFs - is anyone aware of that? Funny thing about the other lawsuits - they involve the same issues that we are talking about in regards to RFTs.

jgraffman

Sorry I wasn't more clear. This thread is about RFT's, and this is the problem I am referring to. If you read this entire thread you will find that BMW has aknowledged via a service bulletin that there are many RFT problems. After the bulletin was issued, my dealer paid for the non-RF Michelins that I previously bought from them.

As far as I am concerned, BMW should go back to regular tires until the RF durability problem is solved.

Even if rapid uneven tire wear was not problem, it doesn't make much sense to use a $400 tire that according to BMW should be discarded after a simple flat.

circlew

As recently posted, if you use the warning light and do not travel far on the flat, the RFT can be repaired. But if you limp home over 50 miles, which I did on the EL42 flat I had, not repairable.

Regards,
OW

Mr_Shiftright

That might be true but the reason many shops don't repair them is not that it's hard, it's just that they don't know how.

So really it's as much a consumer-awareness + a training problem for BMW as it is a product problem.

My two cents is that they launched a new technology without any foresight about how to deal with it. It's the equivalent of Apple shipping the new iPhone without any instructions whatsoever on how to operate it, install peripherals, etc. You get a box with a product in it and nothing else. Can you imagine the problems that would have caused? "Oh, you don't plug it into the wall? Ohhhhhh...."

circlew

...yet thousands camped out on line waiting to be the first with the new iphone. I guess there is always a way to take advantage of the unknowing.

Regards,
OW

larry175

I also picked up a nail in one of my run flat turanza tires with 2500 miles on the car. The dealer wanted $410. for a replacement. It was the only one left in stock and it was against the law law to patch a run flt tire in Ct. I was told. Took the car to a tire store and they plugged the hole and patched it as well. Cost $40. + tip. I have now 27000 mles on the car. But the noise and ride are horrific. I was going to chuck the four of them and buy new non run flats but now I will try and get the dealer or manufacture to replace them for me.

shipo

You're going to try and get the dealer to replace them when they have 27,000 miles on them? Sorry, but I'm thinking "no chance". That said, it never hurts to ask.

Keep us posted.

Best Regards,
Shipo

actualsize

Against the law to patch a run-flat? First time I've heard that. Has anyone else been told this?

Mr_Shiftright

That's hilarious.

rhmass

That statement and the quoted charge of $420 for the replacement tire demonstrates how BMW allows dealers to fleece the consumer. I hope this issue will be recognized by BMW to allow in the future for at least the option for GFTs or the other way around as an option. One of my new Continental RFT, courtesy of BMW's free replecement policy got a nail in it at 500 miles. I had it plugged and is fine since. Being a BMW loyalist for many years, this is the first time I am pondering which brand should I go for when time comes to replace one of our Bimmers. I am sure I am not alone in thinking like this.

Mr_Shiftright

Talking to the tire experts, they tell me that the only repair you can't make to a RFT, or any tire for that matter, is a broken, impaled or ruptured sidewall, or a broken bead.

circlew

Does that include a tire droven for 50-100 miles with zero pressure? I did repair and drove on the tire at low speeds for 3 days while a replacement was in transit but I assumed that hidden damage might lend to a not-so-safe condition.

Regards,
OW

kyfdx

I think if you drive on it, all bets are off... (not an expert)

Mr_Shiftright

I really don't know how much driving on an RFT is too much for safety's sake.

circlew

Neither did I so I opted for new. Ouch!!

Regards,
OW

circlew

That's what I decided. Costly decision but prudent to replace with all doubts banished!!

Regards,
OW

bmwr

Reading this post with some amusement for several weeks now. Obviously, most of you have not had a hig speed blowout on a rear wheel, or any wheel for that matter..? I had the bad luck to get a blowout at 80 mph coming out of a tunnel on the PA turnpike years ago. It was all I could do to keep the car on the highway before I managed to get over to the 4 foot wide breakdown lane to change the flat. I wont tell you what a tandem trailer truck feels like passing you at 70-75 mph while you're trying to change a flat tire..you really dont want to know. What you do want, is a run flat tire. Run flat tires allow you to maintain control with a total loss of air pressure..they allow the Directional Stability Control to operate, as well as the Anti Lock Braking system. With a total loss of air, you can travel up to 150 miles to get a repair. With a slow leak, you can travel up to 600 miles to get a repair. If the puncture is more than 3/4" from the sidewall, you can get it plugged for a few bucks. And, the low tire warning lights up to let you know there's a problem! Keep your spare tire, keep your jack, keep your lug nut wrench..I'll keep the Run Flats and keep on driving.

shipo

I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers and your factoids; however, I think you are building a case for RFTs that is paper thin.

"I had the bad luck to get a blowout at 80 mph..."

Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt. That said, tire technology has come a loooong way in the last couple of decades, and blow-outs without some external help (i.e. a road hazard of some sort) are all but non-existent these days. That said, if you do hit a piece of road junk that destroys your tire, it is highly unlikely that RFTs will help you all that much, if at all.

"Run flat tires allow you to maintain control with a total loss of air pressure..they allow the Directional Stability Control to operate,"

Stability control and ABS on a late model BMW work just fine even of one or more tires have zero pressure and are of the GFT variety.

"With a total loss of air, you can travel up to 150 miles to get a repair."

Ummm, no. The recommendation is no more than 50 miles.

"With a slow leak, you can travel up to 600 miles to get a repair."

That's a bizarre statement if I've ever seen one. Geez, I've driven thousands of miles with a slow leak on GFTs. Stop, fill'er up every so often and continue on your way.

"If the puncture is more than 3/4" from the sidewall, you can get it plugged for a few bucks."

Only if you can find someone willing to do it. FWIW, most (if not all) BMW dealerships will refuse to do this kind of repair.

"Keep your spare tire, keep your jack, keep your lug nut wrench..I'll keep the Run Flats and keep on driving."

Keep your RFTs with their clumsy handling, bone jarring ride and short tread life. I'll gladly take a spare and a jack with me any day.

Best Regards,
Shipo

bdkinnh

>"Keep your RFTs with their clumsy handling, bone jarring ride and short tread life."

+1.

Don't forget that it also costs about twice as much to have a RFT mounted.

circlew

Changing a tire on the Cross-Bronx Expwy in the late '90's on a Ford Econoline at 5:30AM in the dark, I had pulled over on a sliver-thin raised area that just fit the van with a few inches to open the door and get out into the right lane. When the wrench slipped off one of the lugs, I fell into the lane with on-coming traffic! WTGOG, a few of my buddies in the van pool helped me back to safety before I was pulverized!

Hopefully RFT or the new Michelin tireless technology will obviate this roadside practice off the face of the earth!

Regards,
OW

bdkinnh

>"Hopefully RFT or the new Michelin tireless technology will obviate this roadside practice off the face of the earth! "

I think a better solution is to look for a better place to pull off the road. If there isn't one, I'd rather destroy the rim by riding on it for a while, as opposed to destroying my driving enjoyment by riding on RFTs all the time.

circlew

Approaching the GWB, there is no other place except the highway itself!

Alternately, you just stop! Probably, you will get hit.

Some people stop on the bridge and the maniacs passing by threaten them just for causing traffic delays.

At the end of the day, the technology needs to improve so you don't need to stop and change a tire. You can't set an appointment for a flat tire.

Regards,
OW

shipo

"At the end of the day, the technology needs to improve so you don't need to stop and change a tire. You can't set an appointment for a flat tire."

Agreed, but as previously pointed out, if in the highly unlikely event that you get a sudden flat (as opposed to a slow leak that usually allows a number of miles once the TPMS has been triggered), some of us would rather drive until we can safely stop. If the destruction of the wheel is the end result, I just don't see that as a big deal compared with the trade offs of RFTs. The truth of the matter is that RFTs are more expensive than GFTs, often cost more to install, and have generally inferior driving characteristics.

In case of my wife and me, we have over seventy years of combined driving experience covering some one and a half million miles in the process. Through it all, the only sudden pressure loss event that either of us has had while we were behind the wheel was when I was driving a 1968 Chrysler Town & Country station wagon. While that event was nervous as I was moving at nearly 80 mph when the right front tire let go, it could have been avoided. The car was my (then) new girlfriend's father's car and I found out right after the event that he didn't believe in changing tires until the tread was fully bald (three out of four tires in this case), and even then all he would buy was retreaded tires.

The above isn't to say that we've never had a flat, we've had lots, however, in every other case the flat happened so slowly that we either saw it before getting in for a drive, or were alerted to the fact by the sloppy handling of the car. Obviously the first case is simply annoying, and the second case we've always been afforded enough time to get to a safe place to change it or get it changed.

All of this is to say that if I had instead spent the extra money on RFTs (assuming they were available) for those 1.5 million miles, I'm sure we would have spent several thousand dollars more for our tires than we have at this point, more than enough to pay for a few damaged wheels should it ever come to that. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

circlew

Agreed, to make RFT's work, the cost must go down and the performance up.

Regards,
OW

circlew

Here is an example of No Flat Tires...now that's what I'm talkin' about!



Regards,
OW

highlandpete

"With a total loss of air, you can travel up to 150 miles to get a repair". :surprise:

Guys in the UK have had 'total' sidewall failures on RFT's within 20 miles of running low pressure. All depends on the load being carried and for how long the pressure was dropping, before the warning is thrown up.

HighlandPete

dan12

"With a total loss of air, you can travel up to 150 miles to get a repair".

Guys in the UK have had 'total' sidewall failures on RFT's within 20 miles of running low pressure. All depends on the load being carried and for how long the pressure was dropping, before the warning is thrown up.


Here is what my 3-series manual says. Do people disagree with this? The manuals in general tend to be conservative about this stuff, right?

"In the event of complete tire pressure loss, 0 psi/kPa, you can estimate the possible distance for continued driving on the basis of the following guidelines:
- With a light load: 1 to 2 persons without luggage: approx. 155 miles/250 km.
- With a medium load: 2 persons, cargo bay full, or 4 persons without luggage: 90 miles/150 km
- With a full load or when towing a trailer: 4 or more persons, cargo bay full: approx. 30 miles/50 km"

circlew

Real-life, I traveled 100 miles, alone, (65-70MPH) with 0 pressure, passenger-rear), had the tire plugged and drove it around town for 3 more days until the replacement arrived. The sidewalls are perfect and so is the tread. 5,000 miles on the tire at the time.

Regards,
OW

2puttmax

Sorry about this, but what does GFT stand for? I get the idea it must be conventional tires?

circlew

Exactamundo! Get Flat Tires (conventional).

Regards,
OW

shipo

I inadvertently coined the acronym a couple of years ago to mean "Gets Flat Tire".

Best Regards,
Shipo

highlandpete

Never mind the instruction manual... The real world can be quite different. I quote one example....

"So I am driving along the M11, everything seems fine, beautiful sunny day in fact. All of a sudden I get the DING! warning from I-drive that one of the tyres has a puncture. No problem I thought - still got another 90 miles or so on them, albeit at a snail pace 50 mph.

A couple of miles later, I arrive at my destination. I go for a quick inspection, and all the tyres look perfect, no problems so far. Fifteen minutes later, I'm back on the M11, heading back to London, and the car is horrendously unstable. The steering is completely off-centre, vibration through the body/seats/s.wheel is very bad, and the car is weaving all over the place - this is at LESS THAN 50 mph. I decide to call BMW Assist, who just tell me what I already know, "They're good for another 90 miles at 50mph". However, I refused to take their advice - I just pulled up on the hard shoulder, called BMW Mobile Service, and was towed home an hour later.

Yesterday I had it towed from my house to the local dealers. I just thought of it as a straightforward simple job - change the tyre, Bob is your uncle. How wrong I was...

The (not-very)run-flat tyre was completely disintegrated on the inside. The tyre's beading had become so hot, it welded itself onto the rim. BMW Service said they would try and get it off, so long as I accepted liability should they bust the rim. Thankfully the very able technician was able to get it off without damaging the rims.
However, the tyre, in its last moments, must have rubbed against the suspension dust cover, leaving a big gash in this flimsy plastic part. And now, the dealers want 3 hours labour to remove the suspension shock, and put a new plastic cover.

Moral of the story......You cannot drive 90 miles at 50mph on these things - NO WAY. From no more than 20 miles on flat, the tyre not only scorched itself, but tried taking my shock away with it....

Even with RFT's, I WANT A SPARE WHEEL.

HighlandPete

shipo

"Even with RFT's, I WANT A SPARE WHEEL."

Brothers and sisters, gimme an Amen and a Halleluia.

Right on Pete. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

idoc2

In August my BMW dealer here in CT graciously changed all 4 of my Bridgestone EL42's for the Continental RFT's as per the BMW TSB. At first the Conti's were a huge improvement - smooth and quiet compared to the EL42's. Now with only 2000 miles they have become increasingly noisy and rough. I have checked the pressure and then had them balanced with no improvement. To say the least I'm a bit disappointed and will keep you updated.

dan12

I just want to point out that this is one case and one case does not make for a rule. In general, it should be true that the car can be driven safely for the distance specified in the manual. (Easy for me to say when I didn't have that bad experience myself.)

Having said that, I would have PAID EXTRA to have my 3-series come with a spare. I have read that bmw decided to ditch the spare in order to have better fuel economy numbers. I think they could have still done that if they had offered the spare as an option. My only complaint then would be that a simple flat can cost me $300. But at least I wouldn't have to be paranoid on long trips about getting stranded.

Oh, well. The car still rocks.

Dan

circlew

100 miles straight @ 70mph, only a slight hint of sway and the tire looking perfect is pretty good. I must have gotten the only good EL42!

BTW, my Conti's are performing/wearing perfectly at 13K miles, rotated at 5K intervals.

Pretty impressive even with the extra weight of the xi.

Would I take the spare and trade in the RFT's? In a heart beat! I'll even throw in the $50 for a dip stick!

Regards,
OW

brokeowner

I'm new on this discussion so forgive me if this an old question...Can you replace the RFT with non_RFT's?

I have a 2006 325xi with sport pkg staggered setup. My Bridgestone RE050aII's have been a pain with the noise, but more costly have been the 4, yes 4, nails that I have had in them in the last year.....I want Continental non-RFT's.....

shipo

I'm new on this discussion so forgive me if this an old question...Can you replace the RFT with non_RFT's?

In a word, yes. Be sure to order one of these kits before you venture out on a long trip with no spare tire:
http://www.tirerack.com/accessories/conticomfortkit/index.jsp

Best Regards,
Shipo

bdkinnh

>"bmw decided to ditch the spare in order to have better fuel economy numbers"

I'm sure the 20% reduction in tire and wheel costs per vehicle have something to do with it as well.

dan12

I'm sure the 20% reduction in tire and wheel costs per vehicle have something to do with it as well.

I'm sure you're right. Even with the RFT's, I would be willing to pay for the extra wheel and tire to have a spare in the trunk, just in case. I know the X5 comes with a spare if you don't opt for the 3rd row seat. I don't see why they couldn't put a spare in the sedan, at least as an option.

dan12

BTW, my Conti's are performing/wearing perfectly at 13K miles, rotated at 5K intervals.

Hmm.. I asked my service advisor and he said that BMW no longer recommends rotating tires. He says there is no need to do it. Is he wrong? I have the non-xi SP with the staggered setup, so rotating would be more of a swap.