Saturn Outlook, GMC Acadia and Buick Enclave

nelsoncm

It took just under a week to start noticing my hip/back problem with the Jeep GC. At first, I thought maybe I needed steprails to help me get in and out, so I purchased some. No help. I soon realized it was a combo of me being short, the seat sitting high, and the pedals sitting slightly to the left of the very wide center console. Funny part is, I had driven a Grand Cherokee as a loaner a few months earlier and had it for about 4 days with no problems -- in fact that's what made me start looking at Jeeps. And since nobody lets you take a week-long test drive, what can you do? I returned to Saab because i think their seats are about the most comfy out there. Especially if you can get the ventilated seats with the cooling fans --oh my God! I had those in my old saab, didn't get them with this new one and boy do I miss 'em! Listen though, lose the money, get outta your pain machine, maybe find a nice pre-owned more traditional car, where you don't have to deal with high seating positions. I was literally in tears because I tried to tough it out in the Jeep for those 2.5 months. It's not worth it!

nelsoncm

I agree with you on the shorter seat bottoms. Terribly unsupportive. And I'm only 5ft 2in! Or, if they give you decent front seats, the back seat is really short, I guess to give you the illusion of legroom. Based on my own experience, I'm sticking with station wagons. I've had a Merc Sable and now two Saab 9-5s. I get the cargo room I need, and I have small family (hubby, son and dog), which helps. And i don't have to feel guilty about gas mileage or depleting the ozone! : )

nastacio

That would be even more interesting considering that the trade-in value is discounted from the sales tax. Sweeeet :-)

seloo

Sorry, I do not agree. Bottom line: Market conditions pricing is just a scam. If you fall for it, then shame on you! If you walk away, the dealers will not employ this insulting tactic, but you cannot really blame them because as we all know there plenty of suckers born every minute.

In my opinion, the no-haggle price is also another scam. It is like paying full MSRP (and in many cases more) for a car. It reminds me of a saying my Grandmother always told me when I wanted to purchase something 'a f--l and his money will soon part!'

For me, the no-haggle price combined with the other issues (although not completely substantiated by the current sample size) associated with the Outlook make this car a poorer value when compared to other cars in this class. I like GM's idea (it is a nice car), but when you compare price, safety, design, etc.. Mazda and Hyundai seem to be a better overall value. There seems to be a general consensus among automotive experts to substantiate this claim.

To each their own, that is what makes this country a great place. Good luck!

62vetteefp

NOt everyone enjoys/will like to negotiate a price with a salesperson. Hence Saturn. If you think the price is too high then walk away and go to a GMC store. Easy as that. If Saturn does not sell enough of a product and they feelit is due to price it will be adjusted. So far I have not heard of any price adjustments at Saturn (Did they drop prices with the rest of GM 3 years ago when GM cut incentives?).

seloo

There is your first mistake, negotiate with a salesperson. You need to have some understanding of the business before you walk on the dealer's lot.

I fully understand that no one really enjoys dealing with a car dealership over the price of a car.

On the other hand, you pay a high premium for the no-haggle deal.

Additionally, Saturn uses incentives to sell their cars. Current the Outlook XE has a $1K allowance. I have seen postings claiming that the Outlook will lower its price because of direct competition with GMC. We will see.

Good luck!

joeblack1

I agree about the seats. Many of them are too short, and offer poor thigh support for that reason. That was my impression of the Honda Odyssey that I drove.

62vetteefp

There is your first mistake, negotiate with a salesperson. You need to have some understanding of the business before you walk on the dealer's lot.

I think I know the business pretty well. Like I said many potential customers do not want anything to do with negotiating a deal. So Saturn has a business plan that offers them a place to go. I have never needed to negotiate for a new vehicle in my life since I always bought with a discount since I was 21. Ahyway in 8 months I should have my enclave and cannot wait!

seloo

So you are a car salesperson that is collecting intelligence on us common folk. Then you know first hand what a great deal the no-hassle price is for the dealership.

I understand that the Enclave is a very nice car. Once the initial demand for this car decreases, some good deals should be available in 8 months.

I enjoyed our chat. Good Luck.

62vetteefp

Not a carsalesperson but have worked with the dealerships.

understand that the Enclave is a very nice car. Once the initial demand for this car decreases, some good deals should be available in 8 months.

As far as future deals on Enclave it certainly is a good question.

The Acadia has been out about 10 months and there surely is no heavy discounting yet. In fact what are people getting off MSRP on these? In 8 months it is very possible though that GM will have caught up to demand with the Lamdas. They are putting in a 3rd shift at Lansing. A lot has to do with two things though. What gas prices will do and, more importantly, our economy. If it goes further into the tank look for some great deals. If gas prices stay the same look for more folks moving from SUV's to CUV's like the Lamdas. If gas prices go down SUV's will sell again. If they go way up even the CUV's will have problems.

zman3

It must depend on where one lives. In the Minneapolis area you can easily buy Acadias and Enclaves within $500 of invoice. Some dealers are holding out for MSRP on the Enclaves so they have 6-8 sitting on their lots. Those that are discounting don't have any sitting around, but you can still buy one without much difficulty.

kcorey

Well, in Brooklyn, NY, Enclaves are as plentiful as hens teeth! Since April, I've seen 3...2 in Brooklyn and 1 on Staten Island. All of the dealers are "waiting" for them. A few dealers in New Jersey say they have them, but some of those cars are demos, and they are charging full price for them.

62vetteefp

I think it is a little stretch to say Enclaves are easily bought anywhere. They have shipped very few and no one is giving much off MSRP. I will say I have seen a couple but they have been GM company cars (except one).

nastacio

Not easy at all to spot an Enclave over here. I have seen only one on the road so far.

Maybe it is a GM tactic to create a value-hype over the model, but more likely a gross scheduling fumble. I am sure the Buick dealers are fuming over the shortage and delays. Meanwhile, the Outlooks are starting to sit a little bit in our local dealer (some models with the state inspection sticker from 3-4 months ago on the windshield.)

budi

I have not seen many Enclaves on the road in DC area. I have only seen like 5-7 with local plates. The dealer I bought from has 5 of them but they are equipped really weird I can see why they are sitting.

chuckhoy

I have not seen many Enclaves on the road in DC area. I have only seen like 5-7 with local plates. The dealer I bought from has 5 of them but they are equipped really weird I can see why they are sitting.

That is why I ordered my (my wife's ) Outlook. All the ones available were either no-options XEs or fully pimped out XRs. Little in between. I figure that if I am spending that much on a car, I can wait to get exactly what I (meaning she) wants.

I have seen about 6 or 7 Outlooks around my area. They outnumber Acadias (I have seen 1 or 2) and I have not seen an Enclave.

62vetteefp

Maybe it is a GM tactic to create a value-hype over the model, but more likely a gross scheduling fumble. I am sure the Buick dealers are fuming over the shortage and delays.

Not sure it is a fumble or there are any delays. Enclave was always scheduled to come out 6 months after the others and the dealers know that there is always a slow startup for quality reasons for new vehicles. GM did underestimate the the Lamda sales and that is why a 3rd shift is going in and a 2nd plant being readied.

The note above about 5 Enclaves being at a lot is a bit suspicious.

nxs138

Local dealer here has a couple of Enclaves sitting on the lot. Not sure why they're not selling, maybe it's because the dealership itself looks like a crappy throwback from the seventies. These were also rather loaded, maybe it's sticker shock for the local folk (the Acadias next to the Enclaves were cheaper).

bobw3

All the previous posts on seat lengths makes me wonder. Can someone measure the seat bottoms on the Outlook, Acadia, Enclave and some of the other minvans/CUVs and report back...in all three rows of seats. I'll do the same on my Freestyle. I'm just curious.

As far as lumbar support, don't they all pretty much have adjustable lumbar support where you can crank it from nothing to a lot? My current FS in the basic version and my last couple of cars all had it.

nastacio

That is an interesting remark about the dealer facilities. With the exception of the Cadillac dealer, the GM dealers in our area are all like that, surrounded by the fancy facilities from Honda, Ford, Mazda, and even Hyundai.

belv

In eastern Iowa it's almost impossible to find and an enclave or an Acadia. In Decorah, which is in the NE corner of Iowa, Jim Daley, the owner of the local Pontiac, Buick, GMC dealer has had 25 orders for the enclave. He told me if I ordered now (Sep 8th) I would probably have to wait until sometime next year to get it. According to him GM has orders for the next six months of production. I've seen about a half dozen enclaves around here so far.

nxs138

It just gives you a bad impression right from the start: old, dirty building right next to the street, small lot, bad location, etc. Guess the owner hasn't forked money to update the place, in stark contrast with other dealerships next to it.

If the Enclave is competing against the high end European and Japanese SUVs, dealership like these can't possibly help the image.

budi

They now have 6 listed in inventory as of 10:33 EDT. :P
www.kingauto.com

morewasabi

Go to www.GMbuypower.com and you can locate your enclave, check inventory and even pull up the window sticker. I did a check and found 25 Enclaves

BIRDNOW MOTOR TRADE
1440 S FREDERICK
OELWEIN, IA 50662
Map | Driving Directions

2008 Enclave CXL AWD
$43,675.00*

Exterior: Platinum Metallic
Interior: Ebony on Ebony Leather

VIN: 5GAEV23728J116867
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MCKINLEY CHEVROLET, PONTIAC, BUICK, OLDSMOBILE & GMC TRUCK
1601 MAIN
OSAGE, IA 50461
Map | Driving Directions

2008 Enclave CXL AWD
$39,845.00*

Exterior: Cocoa Metallic
Interior: Cocoa on Cashmere Leather

VIN: 5GAEV23748J128826
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WALZ BUICK - PONTIAC - GMC, INC.
225 W 3RD
WINONA, MN 55987
Map | Driving Directions

2008 Enclave CXL AWD
$41,240.00*

Exterior: Carbon Black Metallic
Interior: Dark Titanium on Titanium Leather

VIN: 5GAEV23788J140588
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FILLBACK CHEVROLET - BUICK - PONTIAC, INC.
1702 ELM ST
BOSCOBEL, WI 53805
Map | Driving Directions

2008 Enclave CXL AWD
$41,170.00*

Exterior: Red Jewel Tintcoat
Interior: Ebony on Ebony Leather

VIN: 5GAEV23758J122761
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BUICK GMC CADILLAC OF NORTH CEDAR RAPIDS
1040 N CENTER POINT RD
HIAWATHA, IA 52233
Map | Driving Directions

2008 Enclave CXL AWD
$38,490.00*

Exterior: Platinum Metallic
Interior: Dark Titanium on Titanium Leather

VIN: 5GAEV23798J132872
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HALLADA AUTO GROUP, INC.
310 E LEFFLER ST
DODGEVILLE, WI 53533
Map | Driving Directions

2008 Enclave CXL AWD
$45,375.00*

Exterior: Blue-Gold Crystal Metallic
Interior: Ebony on Ebony Leather

VIN: 5GAEV23718J111899
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HURSH MOTORS CO.
195 SE 18TH ST
OWATONNA, MN 55060
Map | Driving Directions

2008 Enclave CXL AWD
$37,940.00*

Exterior: Gold Mist Metallic
Interior: Cocoa on Cashmere Leather

VIN: 5GAEV23748J128938
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2008 Enclave CXL AWD
$37,585.00*

Exterior: White Opal
Interior: Cocoa on Cashmere Leather

VIN: 5GAEV23768J131288
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KUDICK CHEVROLET - BUICK - PONTIAC, INC.
925 W STATE ST
MAUSTON, WI 53948
Map | Driving Directions

2008 Enclave CXL AWD
$39,385.00*

Exterior: Platinum Metallic
Interior: Dark Titanium on Titanium Leather

VIN: 5GAEV23778J106397
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MC MAHON MOTORS, INC.
100 MAIN ST E
DURAND, WI 54736
Map | Driving Directions

2008 Enclave CXL AWD
$38,330.00*

Exterior: Red Jewel Tintcoat
Interior: Ebony on Ebony Leather

VIN: 5GAEV23768J113535
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JOHN GRIEDER MOTORS, INC.
409 13TH ST
BELLE PLAINE, IA 52208
Map | Driving Directions

2008 Enclave CXL AWD
$38,955.00*

Exterior: Ming Blue Metallic
Interior: Dark Titanium on Titanium Leather

VIN: 5GAEV23748J109211
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2008 Enclave CXL AWD
$41,825.00*

Exterior: Cocoa Metallic
Interior: Cocoa on Cashmere Leather

VIN: 5GAEV237X8J120584
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COUNTRYSIDE MOTORS INC.
200 2ND AVE SE
WASECA, MN 56093
Map | Driving Directions

2008 Enclave CXL AWD
$43,855.00*

Exterior: White Diamond Tricoat
Interior: Ebony on Ebony Leather

VIN: 5GAEV23748J131015
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HARRY BROWN'S LLC
1747 GRANT ST
FARIBAULT, MN 55021
Map | Driving Directions

2008 Enclave CXL AWD
$45,540.00*

Exterior: Gold Mist Metallic
Interior: Cocoa on Cashmere Leather

VIN: 5GAEV23728J130039
Window Sticker Request a Quote

KEN WISE BUICK - OLDSMOBILE - GMC TRUCK
1000 N THIRD AVE
MARSHALLTOWN, IA 50158
Map | Driving Directions

2008 Enclave CXL AWD
$41,825.00*

Exterior: Platinum Metallic
Interior: Ebony on Ebony Leather

VIN: 5GAEV23748J108933
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FURLONG MOTORS
1600 CANNON LN
NORTHFIELD, MN 55057
Map | Driving Directions

2008 Enclave CXL AWD
$42,200.00*

Exterior: Cocoa Metallic
Interior: Cocoa on Cashmere Leather

VIN: 5GAEV237X8J147624
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FRED HOIBERG'S CLARION AUTO CENTER, INC.
1501 CENTRAL AVE E
CLARION, IA 50525
Map | Driving Directions

2008 Enclave CXL AWD
$43,095.00*

Exterior: Red Jewel Tintcoat
Interior: Dark Titanium on Titanium Leather

VIN: 5GAEV23758J109492
Window Sticker Request a Quote

MARKQUART MOTORS, INC.
321 W PRAIRIE VIEW RD
CHIPPEWA FALLS, WI 54729
Map | Driving Directions

2008 Enclave CXL AWD
$41,580.00*

Exterior: Red Jewel Tintcoat
Interior: Dark Titanium on Titanium Leather

VIN: 5GAEV23798J106238
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MOODY'S INC.
590 S WASSON LN
RIVER FALLS, WI 54022
Map | Driving Directions

2008 Enclave CXL AWD
$43,110.00*

Exterior: Gold Mist Metallic
Interior: Cocoa on Cashmere Leather

VIN: 5GAEV237X8J118365
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VALLEY PONTIAC - BUICK - GMC TRUCK
12257 POINT DOUGLAS DRIVE
HASTINGS, MN 55033
Map | Driving Directions

2008 Enclave CXL AWD
$46,285.00*

Exterior: White Diamond Tricoat
Interior: Ebony on Ebony Leather

VIN: 5GAEV23758J112411
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2008 Enclave CXL AWD
$39,235.00*

Exterior: Gold Mist Metallic
Interior: Cocoa on Cashmere Leather

VIN: 5GAEV237X8J126725
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WES FINCH AUTO PLAZA INC.
410 WEST ST S
GRINNELL, IA 50112
Map | Driving Directions

2008 Enclave CXL AWD
$43,870.00*

Exterior: White Diamond Tricoat
Interior: Cocoa on Cashmere Leather

VIN: 5GAEV23728J107005
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CHARLES DEARTH PONTIAC - BUICK - CADILLAC - GMC TRUCK, INC.
602 8TH ST
MONROE, WI 53566
Map | Driving Directions

2008 Enclave CXL AWD
$41,115.00*

Exterior: Red Jewel Tintcoat
Interior: Dark Titanium on Titanium Leather

VIN: 5GAEV23738J102086
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SNELL INDOOR AUTO CENTER
1900 MADISON AVENUE
MANKATO, MN 56001
Map | Driving Directions

2008 Enclave CXL AWD
$45,635.00*

Exterior: Carbon Black Metallic
Interior: Ebony on Ebony Leather

VIN: 5GAEV23708J126135
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2008 Enclave CXL AWD
$45,115.00*

Exterior: Blue-Gold Crystal Metallic
Interior: Ebony on Ebony Leather

VIN: 5GAEV23768J123076
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62vetteefp

I called them and they gave me $1000 off MSRP. $1000 more if I had a non GM car. So if you are looking for an Enclave head over to Maryland.

nastacio

And $2000 less on your trade? :-)

62vetteefp

No trade.

rockfish1

Are you buying in the Baltimore area?

62vetteefp

No I will be buying in the Detroit area in about 8 months.

The issue above that we are discussing is that GM fumbled with the Lamdas and they are not building them fast enough to meet demand. It is true that they cannot meet demand and they are adding a 3rd shift to catch up. There are some areas which do have some though and some that have few. One dealer in MD has five Enclaves and they are keeping the sell price up. But 5 cars at one dealership is not exactly a whole bunch.

Anyway bottom line is that the Lamdas are selling very well and dealers are now starting to get a bunch more Enclaves and GM is ramping up production to get more out there to meet demand. Best SUV vehicle out there for my needs and many others.

chuckhoy

I would think that any sane and reasonable person would accept that if your ability to sell product is only limited by your production capacity, it is a sucess. But, sucess ultimately will be determined by the long term reliability of the vehicle and how it does once the compitetion starts building something similiar. A hybrid option for this vehicle would be outstanding.

canuck17

I am somewhat mystified the excitement over the Enclave. Personally I found the exterior in person somewhat bulky (much nicer in pictures) and the interior somewhat garish looking (perhaps Liberace inspired). It also falls behind the competition in tech features and a vehicle of this size and weight definitiely needs a V8.

The CNet review of the Enclave stated the six speed transmission "clunked" in downshifting and "had one of the worst transmissions" they had ever tested. With GM's poor track record with its full and mid size SUV's and mini-vans (Montana, Venture and Uplander)I wonder why anyone would flock to purchase the GM Lambda based vehicles. I can personally attest to this as being a previous owner of two first year GM model year vehicles (2000 Montana van and 1990 Caprice Classic).

I wish GM well with these vehicles as it desperately needs a winner or two to stave off massive layoffs and possible bankruptcy. I just cannot understand why anyone would not wait a couple of years for the reliability of these vehicles to be established. Perhaps price and 0% interest rates will move these Lambda based crossovers.

I imagine those in midwest America like to buy American and big despite the rising price of gas.

kcorey

A couple of quick points. First, nothing is going to appeal to everyone. We all have our dislikes. I'm sure their are plenty of people who loved the Edsels and can't understand why they're not still being made. Second, while you may have had a "poor track record" with GM, I, and I'm sure plenty of other people, have had a very good track record with GM. I will be trading in a Buick Terraza ('05) for an Enclave. The Terraza has been a great car for my wife and myself. Third,when I test drove three different Enclaves I didn't experience any "clunking" of the transmission. In fact, I thought it was the best car and ride I have ever experienced...in over 50 years, and 2 million miles, of driving. Oh well, "different strokes..."

nxs138

The models I test drove had a noticeable transmission hesitation, but no clunking. They are somewhat sluggish when flooring it, especially if you test drive the new Highlander, CX-9, or Veracruz back to back. I think a V8 Denali version would sell well, although if a loaded V6 nearly tops out at $44k, I don't want to think what a V8 would do to the price.

I don't think GM really needs huge incentives to move these at the moment: they have done a good job in going after their customer base and identifying their needsa, i.e. big and roomy. Heck, even though I don't personally need all the room, I find myself wondering if I should get one just in case.

62vetteefp

The "clunking" of the trans is a well known issue with the software programming of the PCM in the Lamdas. Do not know how GM screwed this up because they are known for the best transmissions in the world (automatic) (and not referring to how many gears they lack). Anyway a TSB is out as of about a week ago that a dealer can reprogram the trans and the issue is resolved.

It is a big egg on their face fro letting this thru and into the publics hands. That being said our Acadia has the issue but it is not that bad, just annoying to feel it once in awhile.

And I personally love the exterior styling and have yet to see any media not love it also. to each its own though.

chuckhoy

Perhaps price and 0% interest rates will move these Lambda based crossovers.

Yup, I'm sure that moving as much product as they can churn out of the factory without much of an incentive or lower APR makes the lambdas. a dismal failure. GM is moving them well enough that they had to, begrudgingly, add another shift to the factory. I'm sure that the bean counters at corporate are walking on eggshells over that. Best not let the CEO know about that abject failure.

I imagine those in midwest America like to buy American and big despite the rising price of gas.

Well, since we haven't developed paved roads yet, we have to have something that sits high off the ground to get to our mud huts. Those cows aren't going to milk themselves! It is, also, a pretty far hike to the outhouse (what with no indoor plumbing and other high-falootin city stuff) so we like something to get us there too. Shucks, we have to have something roomy to carry around our 9 kids and the deer we just shot.

tidester

Well, since we haven't developed paved roads yet ...

I understand that the national electrification program will finally reach there by the end of the decade ...!

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

chuckhoy

Yeeeeeeee Hawwwwwwwwww!
Now I can finally get me one of those fancy com-pu-der things.

nastacio

LOL

zman3

Chuckhoy:

Come on, admit it. You had your literate cousin/spouse type that, didn't you?

Too funny.

nastacio

It has to be, he would have written:

Now I can finally get me one of them fancy com-pu-der things.

bobw3

I will be trading in a Buick Terraza ('05) for an Enclave

It would be nice to hear these types of accolades from Lexus, Acura, Mercedes or BMW owners, versus a Buick owner just trading in one Buick for another.

62vetteefp

Here's one:

Brian MacDonald is one driver attracted by GM's new crossovers. An investment-fund manager in California, Mr. MacDonald has driven nothing but BMWs and Mercedes-Benzes for the past 20 years. But last month, with the lease on his Mercedes ML-Class winding down, Mr. MacDonald leased a $45,000 Enclave, the most luxurious of GM's three models.

"If someone had told me a few months ago I'd be driving a Buick, my reaction would have been 'no way, no how,' " says Mr. MacDonald, 46 years old. The Enclave, he said, offers the roominess to haul around his three young children and the styling and interior comforts he was accustomed to with the Mercedes. Because the Mercedes ML sells for about $30,000 more than the Enclave, his monthly payment on the Buick was almost $300 lower.

Half of all Acadias and Outlooks go to customers who trade in GM vehicles; about 20 percent go to people trading Asian-brand vehicles. For the Enclave, the numbers are slightly lower but still better: 44 percent of all trade-ins are non-GM brands; 14 percent of the trade-ins are Asian vehicles.

And:

Our data shows that Outlook has a 57 percent conquest rate as measured by trade-ins. In other words, for those purchasing/leasing an Outlook and trading-in a vehicle, 57 percent traded-in a non-GM vehicle.

And that is with a trade in. Wonder how many had non GM vehicles before the purchase?

bobw3

Do you have the web link to those stats? Also, the part about Brian MacDonald sounds like an commercial versus Edmunds post.

62vetteefp

The whole discussion is back in this forum a few pages.

The Saturn part is from a saturn rep who frequents these forums.

lwolf99

Hello. I am wondering if anyone else has come across this issue...

I have a Buick Enclave AWD, with pretty much all the options, including Towing package. I got it at the end of June. It has about 3,000 miles on it so far, and I really love it.

The last few days, I noticed something new. My Enclave is kept in our garage overnight. Lately, when I leave for work in the morning, I hear these squeaking noise coming from the brake pedal. It sounds like it is coming from inside the cabing near the the pedal itself - not from the actual brake pads or tire area. It occurs just as the pedal is nearly fully depressed, and again just as I let my foot off the pedal. It is not a scratching or squealing noise. It sort of sounds like the noise a squeegee would make when wiping water from a window after cleaning.

I only drive a few miles to work, and hear it evey time I press the brake pedal the whole way to work (short drive). The Enclave is parked outside during my work day. I do NOT hear the noise later on, if I go out to lunch, or when driving home.

It is not a terrible sound, and the brakes seems to work fine. It is just a little annoying.

Has anyone else has experienced this noise or heard of this issue.

62vetteefp

I have heard in other vehicles. Sounds like the bushing in the brake pedal arm needs some lubricant.

hardhawk

I wonder how long the GM strike will delay all the Lamba's on order? I think the UAW is shooting itself in the foot, but time will tell. Sorry for all of you who have them on order.

62vetteefp

I wonder how long the GM strike will delay all the Lamba's on order?

About day for day. The plants will do a slow startup but should not delay too many units.

hardhawk

I just read where the Teamsters are not going to deliver any GM products already made in solidarity with the UAW. How frustrating would that be to have your new vehicle made but sitting on a lot somewhere because it cannot get delivered!?!

imidazol97

I read this and think you're hearing the air vented into the vacuum booster for the power brake. When the pedal is depressed after the motor has been running, you hear a swishing sound. But turn the motor off and repeated push the pedal and the pedal height rises and the intake sound of air going in to help you push the pedal ceases. :confuse:

But on my newer leSabre there's a slight, soft sound even after the vacuum is all gone. I must be a seal sliding on a rod or something. Tomorrow I'll get upside down and look up to see if I can see what it is. You guys have good hearing if that last sound is the one you're noticing!!!