Toyota on the mend?

kenym

I found this to be very interesting. I read where Cadillac is trying to distance them self from Government Motors. Because they don't want to be associated with a welfare organization while trying to sell a luxury brand automobile. If you noticed the GM adds lately don't include the Cadillac brand. It's really kind of sad that after over a hundred years of being the top name in GM it now wants to pretend it no longer is part of GM. However the fact is they contributed as much to the GM demise as any other brand in the GM line up. Cadillac made some real clunkers over the years. I know because I owned a few of them. In fact my 98 Cadillac and my 2002 Buick were the reasons I said after 40+ years I would never buy another GM product. :P

anythngbutgm

Wow, that's a bold accusation there kid.

Got some proof of this somewhere? Otherwise it reeks of B.S.

ateixeira

From your post:

The CHP saw "brake lights turning on and off, possibly indicating that Sikes was pumping the brakes".

In the interview Sikes said he was standing on the brakes, in fact he goes out of his way to repeat himself.

Nice consistency.

I'm not going to fall for Sikes' acting any more than I'd believe his line about using nuetral flipping the car. Keep in mind his, um, "Film" background, LOL.

Parking brakes usually go on a drum, so they don't put brake dust on a wheel they way brake discs do.

graphicguy

http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-researching-fix-for-1-2-million-corolla-and-m- atrix-models.html

Have to admit, the comments after the article are pretty amusing, too.

210delray

And the US-spec 2004-09 Prius has rear drums as part of the service braking system, so no dust on those either (unless of course you remove the brake drum).

PMO

Would this car have the ABS ? or did Toyota take it out to supplement the batteries?

PMO

The Government never kept it's eye on Toyota because of the screw Up with GM and Chrysler. The government trusted the Auto industry to keep the funds topped up. Then what do you want the Government put millions into Toyota to locate in the USA and GM kept this plant running until GM pulled the Vibe. You were glad GM was going down and you were told all Automobile industries are joined at the hip. This is so sad to see as a retiree out of GM (pro GM.)

PMO

I am sorry to tell you, how wrong you are about fully funded pensions in GM. I held you to a higher standard and like Tiger you failed.

PMO

GM had contracts with Toyota that would have been terminated with the old GM going out of business closing down Pontiac. Guess this was another Toyota plan for GM.

explorerx4

the main brakes in a prius are the regen brakes, the friction brakes are designed to stop the car at lower speeds.
just because someone steps on the brakes 250 times doesn't it actually slowed the car. maybe that's why they did it 250 times! :surprise:

PMO

I retired from GM 17 years ago and I for one have always thought Employees in the Auto industry have work in common. Toyota has been in front as the industry leader for a few years .This was not because of GM Ford or Chrysler it was The public in the USA wanted something better ,faster and less cost than the North American built. Then Toyota was given millions by States to build in their state making Toyota North American built. This is now where we stand in the 80'S GM put billions into re tooling and following Toyota in Robotic build. This was a big change getting out of the old presses that turned out Tanks Trucks Ships for two world wars. This put the workers into an unknown industry. The Industry was manned by kids out of the hippie Generation (make love not war) 60's and this in America was pot, drugs were up and coming. Japan was Japan and was raising her children after the A bomb to become industrious . The USA wanted to be served and the industry failed North American Assembled is what you have, Parts plants from around the world with no control on reliability, Engineering (GMI closed its doors) in the 90's The plants building require contract employees that will work for them with no pensions and no health care to cut cost to deliver what the USA buyer is asking for.

kenym

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/18/chp-report-seemingly-sides-with-sikes-on-case- -of-the-runaway-pri/

nmt001

News regarding the runaway Prius in New York says:
"Toyota officials said they did not know how long the New York investigation would take. The company plans to release the results to Harrison police but not to the media because the police are also investigating."

Does anyone find something absurd in the news report?

1/Toyota's Prius is being accused of having unintended acceleration problem that caused it to crash into a stone wall.

2/The Harrison police are investigating the accident.

3/ Toyota (not the NHTSA) is one who leads the investigation and provides investigation results to the Harrison police for their investigation.

If a construction company is being investigated for having built some unsafe buildings, should we allow the building engineers of the same company to lead the investigation and then the police uses the results of investigation drawn by the company's engineers as the basis for their own investigation? Of course not. The conflict of interest is too much to guarantee a fair investigation.

NHTSA, not Toyota, should be the one to lead the investigation and to provide results of investigation to the police with the cooperation of Toyota engineers. Apparently, NHTSA is not performing its duty properly as the authority for traffic safety.

And why in the New York case Toyota plans to release the results of investigation to the police only but not to the media at the same time? Toyota's excuse is "because the police are investigating". Of course that's just a lame excuse. The police were investigating the San Diego case too but that didn't stop Toyota from releasing the accelerator and brake data for their smear campaign against Mr. Sikes. I suspect that the data in the New York case indicate some sort of malfunction so damage control from public opinion is being taken by Toyota.

Another news reports: "The EDR reader can be connected to the vehicle's on-board diagnostic equipment and record useful data for Toyota to analyze. The data record includes accelerator pedal activity, brake pedal position, speed and countless other factors present during a claimed vehicle fault." (note: Bold type mine)

This report answers the question in one of my earlier posts about what kind of data are input into EDR. So now it is clear that accelerator pedal activity, brake position as well as speed are recorded. That means if the data show that when the accelerator pedal is not pressed while the speed continues to increase drastically or the speed stays very high without deceleration, unintended acceleration is confirmed. Data showing the brake pedal being pressed at the same time when unintended acceleration happened would be confirmation that the driver has taken action to stop the unintended acceleration.

In the New York case of runaway Prius, if the data reveals drastic increase of speed while the brake pedal was being pressed, it would completely vindicate the driver of any error and would be definite proof that the Prius has unintended acceleration problem related to electronics.

In the San Deigo case of runaway Prius, Toyota released the data of accelerator pedal and brake pedal activity but deceptively covered up the data of speed in relation to those activities. Without the data of speed, there is no way to judge if the Prius has unintended acceleration problem related to electronics.

Toyota disclosed that Mr. Sikes had pumped the gas and brake pedals alternately and rapidly many times. Granted that it was true and the Prius did not malfunction, the speed data should indicate that the Prius was undergoing rapid acceleration and deceleration corresponding to the position of those pedals. If the speed data indicate that the speed of the Prius stay very high and remains relatively constant or fluctuated only very slightly when the brake pedals was pressed hard repeatedly, unintended acceleration will be confirmed. The unintended acceleration in such case is likely due to electronic problem causing constant wide open throttle irrespective of the positions of the gas and brake pedals.

I also suspect that the EDR was able to record the extend to which the gas pedal and the brake pedal were pressed and that heavy braking movements were recorded. However, Toyota fails to disclose such important information while trying to lead people to believe that the front brakes being worn out metal to metal and the rear brake pads worn down to only 0.02 inches thin were done by Mr. Sikes pumping the gas and brake pedals lightly or moderately.

The fact that Toyota covers up the speed data from the EDR while revealing only the number of times of the gas and brake pedal were pumped without mentioning their intensity is a deception that the engineers in NHTSA should have realized immediately when those data were revealed in Toyota's smear campaign against Mr. Sikes. However NHTSA kept silent about it and let the deception do its damage among the ignorant Toyota supporters.

I hope NHTSA will man up and be the traffic safety authority it is supposed to be instead of being Toyotas silent partner in cover up.

PMO

Not 100 and many of the Years Cadillac pulled out of the USA to build in Canada building in the same plant as Buick (McLaughlin Buick) and Chevrolet until GM bought the plant in 1918. Cadillac was built from 1927 until ww2 1939 ( in the USA 1942 ww2)

gagrice

Toyota left more questions unanswered than answered with their quick test of the Sike's Prius. What was the condition of the traction battery when it arrived at the El Cajon Toyota dealership? I would imagine that last long hill where Sikes finally got it stopped would have drained the traction battery to a low level. Climbing hills with the traction battery at the lowest level is probably why he finally got it down to where he felt safe shutting the car off. The CHP had no reason to not believe Sikes. He saw his mental condition and physical condition. I doubt he was looking for reasons to discredit him as Toyota was from the start. That is the way Toyota approaches any claim of failure in their vehicles. If you are lucky enough to have a Toyota that has never failed, you have not seen them in action. I have over 45 years. Those that choose to put a Halo over Toyota is within their rights as US citizens. Those of US that are not so naive or have tasted their treatment have the right to be disgusted by the treatment of victims of UA.

explorerx4

dead model walking?
it's not unusual for a manufacturer the come out with a new model designation when one name gets damaged beyond the repair of buyer perception.

kenym

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2010/03/toyota-prius-no-brakes-used.html

avucarguy

Unfortunately, for most workers today, a pension is a luxury. I work in the heath care field, and the Hospital I work for stop offering pensions for those of us hired after 1995. Many of Americans no longer get a pension plan from their job anymore. That is what our 401K plan or 403B if you are a health care worker. You need to put money away for your retirement.Too many people rely on the government to help when they retire rather than taking care of it themselves.
To stay in business, GM have to change. That means UAW workers and management need to make concessions for the company to stay viable. I believe GM is trying to do that. Ford is doing a good job without government money. Chrysler, I'm not so sure.

andres3

The police were investigating the San Diego case too but that didn't stop Toyota from releasing the accelerator and brake data for their smear campaign against Mr. Sikes. I suspect that the data in the New York case indicate some sort of malfunction so damage control from public opinion is being taken by Toyota.

Wrong again. The CHP clearly stated they were not investigating the case because there were not injuries or property damage.

andres3

That's what I suspected all along in the Prius NY run into wall case. That it was pedal misapplication which is 100% driver error.

There is no other explanation for UA.

All of these cases are driver error, no more, no less.

It is my understanding Toyota doesn't know for sure from the data recorder how far the throttle or brakes were depressed in the Sike's case over 250 times, but that the wear on the brakes was consistent with being pressed lightly over and over.

explorerx4

you really need to read about how regen brakes work.
i doubt it will happen or will just be ignored.

gagrice

He and several others here are clueless on the operation of the Prius hybrid. That is why the initial Toyota response was "this cannot happen". You lightly touch the brake and the regen takes over transferring the energy to charging the batteries and removes all power to the wheels. Toyota has clearly stated the brakes were indeed depressed 254 times. And the throttle stayed wide open during the whole time. That should not have happened. Toyota may be getting closer to finding their gremlin. Fortunately for Toyota they did not call Sikes a liar as that would add libel to the charges in court. Sikes is crazy not to sue Toyota.

0311vn

My intial response would be to shift into neutral and begin braking. On stright stretch of road will little traffic, I would turn the ignition off. As a last resort, I would look for somewhere relatively soft to steer the vehicle into, such as hedges , bushes, and small trees. I would even consider side swiping parked vehicles rather than let arunawat vehicle continue on.

Why don't we see advice from safety experts on what to do in this scenario? Are they afraid of liability issues?

sharonkl

I don't know what the court decision was regarding the bankruptcy of GM. Partnership was dissolved between GM and Toyota. What is sad GM declared the bankruptcy, and is allowed to avoid many obligations/some are not as special arrangement may have been made to pay debts under reorganization of the corporation. Just not aware of details.

I do realize Toyota was soley left to deal with these Nummi employees, close plant, etc. I personally feel this was real bad Toyota was left to clean it up.

But the under funded employee retirement pension plan blame does go to both GM and Toyota. Plan should have never had to go to PBGC. GM just filed bankruptcy over the past year. Fund deficit didn't just occur. And plan fiduciary(Toyota & GM) did not act to prevent market losses before the crash, if that is what they are claiming. They could have gone to conservative investments, then reinvested more diversified portfolios again in March, 2009. Alert alarms were there before market crashed.

sharonkl

Many questions remain about Sikes runaway Prius. And multiple answers still not provided - thoroughly. And yes, I see some problems with NHTSA allowing Toyota who is presently being investigated to conduct these investigations. Yes, NHTSA had engineers there, but Toyota seems to be in charge of the engineering investigation. And Exponent involved. Know too much and have too much info about Exponent to expect fairness. They are excellent but play by different rules. That is just their business.

As far as his alleged dicey background - sounds like I would not like him very much.

But the possible medical emergency status that existed w chest pressure symptoms w positive medical history high blood pressure & cardiac bypass surgery quite concerning. The abnormally very high blood pressure, increased respirations, rapid pulse medically indicate that person is reacting to highly stressful situation. CHP also noticed the Sikes was visibly shaking, eyes quite wide, deep rapid respirations are also medically revealing. What occurred with Mr. Sikes here, and can be proven, just can not be medically dismissed as being fake .

Now we wait for NHTSA to report. Hopefully their report will provide more anwers for us.

nmt001

Thank you for telling me that the CHP has stated they were not investigating the case, but doesn’t Toyota want the police to investigate if Mr. Sikes was playing a hoax for financial gain? Please don’t tell me Toyota doesn’t because Toyota’s smear campaign against Mr. Sikes shows that it does. Besides the Toyota Secret Police have been digging out every tiny dirty secret of Mr. Sikes' personal life in an attempt to implicate him as a hoaxer and Toyota is more than happy to release the EDR data selectively and deceptively in order to give the Toyota Secret Police more firepower to put Mr. Sikes down.

So even though you think you are right, you are still wrong.

It's strange that you do not debate against my point that Toyota presented the EDR data deceptively to smear Mr. Sikes. Of course, you don't because that is the truth.

nmt001

"Okay, so it appears you are right about the "take it out of gear comment by the 911 operator, however, I disagree with your interpretation of that statement. I find "take it out of gear," and "put it in neutral" to mean entirely the exact same thing to any average human and especially to one experiencing UA."

Even though they mean the same thing, take the car out of gear is not the proper way to tell drivers in a frantic situation to "shift the gear to neutral" especially when it is in a question like " Is there a way for you to take the car out gear?" instead of an instruction to do it or how to do it.

If you know the fire exit, you should tell someone searching desperately for a way out in a commanding way like saying "Follow me. I known where the fire exit is." instead of "Do you think you can trust me to lead you to the escape route? In the former case, the instruction inspires confidence. In the latter case, the question does not inspire confidence and creates room for doubt and distrust.

I'm not trying to convince Toyota lackeys to believe what I say because they are so biased. I'm only trying to point this out so that hopefully someday it will help someone to give precise and direct instruction to save someone's life instead of confusing them with questions that instill distrust.

Whether a stetch of curved highway is winding or not winding is a subjective idea depending on the driving skill, vehicle speed and state of mind just like the idea if something is heavy or not heavy depends on the strength of the person. You have the right to say it is not winding. But when some people think it is winding, they have the right to say so too.

PMO

Then understand this GM stopped pensions in 1990 for engineering staff hired as GM pensioned off engineers salary was first hit, This would show you GM 20 years ago started with Salary. The changes in tooling started in 1986 with the robots replacing manpower production was about to replace the people in the body shops hourly,paint was next this was before the 90's. The thing was GM was producing next to nothing when this was taking place,who knew? The truth be known at this time GM was in fact working with Toyota and others to build cars for them .The General public went around in the USA thinking of buying and had nothing but off shore/GM cars to buy. GM took a chance the public would drift back (as you know many stayed with what was their choice) The Government allowed part time workers to overtake full time ,this allowed GM and other work places to cut cost in having only workers without pensions(or contract workers as in UAW now) This world you live in has and is changing .The Government will have health care this will cut more cost out of any industry funded health plans.This will lower car, food and other cost you produce. Toyota is in trouble but if it hangs in it too will make it. This is not Toyota bashing ,I know as a GM pro builder it is a bad time for Toyota. CAMMI NUMMI come to mind in joint ventures now GM had no choice but to become singular.I did forget Saturn.

PMO

Why now do you choose to tell the world of your feelings about Toyota Dealers? I applaud you in your holding Toyota up over the years as a product bar none. This is and has been a Dealer response thing with all car lines and over the years I have tried to convey this to you but you bashed GM, not the Dealers. The employees suffer in the end Toyota ,GM and Chrysler in this case.

PMO

You (the tax payers) called the shots,when the markets started the fall GM tried to keep ahead of it but you chose not to purchase GM/Toyota (vibe) and GM was put on the block.The billions GM spent on cars in the system ready for production IE Camaro/Buicks all would have been lost. This is fall out or collateral damage ,for want of a better choice of words. This Loan for GM will be paid back but the losses because the company was bashed with a big hammer. The fall out with Toyota comes with the wrath of the Taxpayers and owners alike not GM.

gagrice

I am trying to follow your train of thought. How is buying 3 Toyotas over 45 years bashing GM. I bought 5 new GM vehicles from 1989 to 2005. I had overall much better care from GM dealers than I have Toyota. With the exception of my USA built Sequoia the GM vehicles were superior the the Toyota vehicles. And the GM electronics in the latest GMC was superior to the electronics in the Sequoia.

Which gets US back to the subject at hand. If the NAV/Audio electronics made by Denso are inferior to the electronics supplied in GM vehicles, it is reasonable to assume the control electronics in the Toyota DBW systems are also inferior. Which is witnessed by the over whelming larger volume of UA complaints from Toyota owners. GM just does not have the electronic gremlins that Toyota has. My guess is Denso inferior electronics.

cuti932

Hi to all. I worked as an electronics Test Program Development engineer for almost 30 years. Here are the important rules regarding fixing a failure:
Duplicate the failure, Analyze the real cause, develop & implement the fix and test it again on Many samples that have the Actual failure.
The unintended acceleration (UA) has happened in many lines of Toyota cars in various scenarios. The main difficult issue is the UA is NOT REPEATABLE. So, the right thing for Toyota and Edmund.com to do is collecting the cars that has MANY UAs happened. Then, there is a chance that the UA can be repeated and observed/analyzed. There are many possible causes for a failure. It is not a good idea to imagine a way that the UA can happen. It has to be the real/actual cause to verify and develop the specific solution.
Toyota never shows the intention to buy back the defective vehicles for investigation & fix like I describe above. The same for Edmund.com to make the $1M prize worth its value.

gagrice

I agree with your analysis. Sadly Toyota takes the position of denying any problems with their vehicles until it is proven by the consumer in court. They hire lawyers and PR people to discredit the consumer, rather than to fix their problems. It goes beyond reason that most runaway vehicles are owned by incompetent drivers. I would spread incompetence evenly across all brands and then pick on the brand that has the most incidents of SUA. That would be Toyota. I know the faithful will try to spin the troubles away. They just will not go away until Toyota fixes the problems. The Prius is the perfect example of an overly complex piece of equipment that has a lot of issues. Owners stay loyal even with overwhelming evidence that they have UA and brake failures.

lemko

The last time Toyota made anything interesting to the enthusiast was the Supra, but that was a long time ago.

lemko

I'm not ashamed of the GM association with Cadillac. Heck, my wife's 2005 Buick LaCrosse and my 2007 Cadillac DTS Performance and the GM cars that preceded them for the past 25 years are the reasons I will keep buying GM products well into the future.

kenym

Toyota Secret Police more firepower to put Mr. Sikes down.

Now that's funny!! . :shades:

Can't be much of a secret if you knew about them could it :confuse:

fho2008

GM is Cadillac....Cadillac is GM.

Now if they wanted to be a seperate company, maybe they should call themselves Pontiac, or Saturn.

Hummer is available!

We know how those brands are doing!!

Who are they trying to fool? This "new Cadillac" are they still putting that stupid GM badge on every car that they/GM make?

xlu

As an electronics engineer myself, I totally agree with you. It's a joke for Toyota to declare nothing wrong with the San Diego Prius after a mere 2-hour test drive.

ateixeira

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2010/03/toyota-prius-no-brakes-used.html

Link again since the haters skipped reading it.

Another source:

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2010/03/feds-throttle-wide-- open-no-brakes-in-ny-prius-crash/1

Feds say no brakes, full throttle in N.Y. runaway Toyota Prius crash

ateixeira

All those medical symptoms are consistent with those of someone who would have been having an adrenaline run with going nearly 100mph illegally and then lying to a police officer about it.

Do you really think he would not have "increased respirations" while perpetrating this hoax?

that person is reacting to highly stressful situation

Yeah, like lying in order to commit fraud.

just can not be medically dismissed as being fake

Agreed, but the reason he gave for being stressed was fake.

ateixeira

Toyota Secret Police

Is that their concept for a new police cruiser?

ateixeira

Toyota never shows the intention to buy back the defective vehicles for investigation & fix like I describe above

Are you sure about that? I don't think that's true. Auto makers buy back lemons all the time. To say Toyota/Lexus has never done that is a bit naive IMHO.

Having said that, this was not a lemon, in fact is functioned as its driver commanded. So there's no reason to buy it back.

Sikes still owes, what, $19 grand on it?

210delray

...I said something in response, but there's much more beneath the surface of this "dependability" survey. Read this for the scoop.

We're STILL arguing about lunatic Sikes? See ya!

mnf

Thanks for posting that but some on this form have already made there mind up any truth or rebuttal of what they think is conspiracy sponsored by Toyota.

gagrice

You haven't decided what it will be ketchup or mustard on your crow. Toyota back peddled on their findings. Brakes hit multiple times. Throttle full the whole time. Until it was shut off. That would be impossible with a properly functioning Prius. Case closed Sikes the victim pure and simple. Cops agree with Sikes. Toyota needs to figure out what is wrong with their electronics.

explorerx4

SIL was probably jealous.

ateixeira

Reference? :confuse:

gagrice

I have posted it twice and I believe Sharon posted it also. Toyota lied in their initial report trying to discredit Sikes. This is a better picture of the truth. The Throttle was stuck open the whole time according to Toyota.

After the press conference, however, a Toyota representative confirmed to ABC News that the electronic data did not show how hard the brake was being pressed. "The level of brake application is not recorded," said Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons, "only that the brakes were completely released and applied."

Lyons also clarified Michels statement about the number of times Sikes must have hit the brakes and the accelerator. He said that the data showed that Sikes pressed and released the brakes 254 times, and did not show Sikes pressing on the accelerator, only that the throttle remained open throughout the incident.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/hed-runaway-toyota-prius-driver-thought-die-dek/st- ory?id=10114198&page=2

Maybe the Faithful would like BBQ Crow.

sharonkl

I totally agree, and have posted what you said several times here. This is just a common sense good basic management approach when a problem occurs.

Multiple issues apparently prevent this good approach. Approach is not being done.

Due to the hearings - NHTSA did go out and buy that Mrs. Smith's 2006 Lexus that had SUA/UA in 2006 - paid $40,000. Mrs. Smith had testified at the Oversight Committee hearing. But Smith's had Lexus repaired after incident, and ultimately sold auto. Auto had only approx 2800 miles - odometer when event occurred. New owner has had no problems. I felt was wrong auto to investigate, and should have been eliminated, Auto had been repaired by Toyota, and not sure what all was done, and no further events had occurred.

Do you know anything about auto engineering? Have a question for you, if you do.

sharonkl

May I ask you a question and have you read a report?? Did you read Dr Gilberts preliminary actual study??? He testified at the Oversight Committee Hearing.

As for Mr. Sikes - I realize his background is highly questionable but his medical symptoms positive condition documented findings post questionable SUA/UA incident, do undeniably indicate a person had been in highly stressful event. Ambulance Paramedics/EMT treated Mr. Sikes. I am an RN and worked on Code Blue team emergencies, also did emergency patient triage - so picked up on these findings immediately. I won't document the CHP findings per report. But ambulance was requested and appropriate.