Toyota on the mend?

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Comments

  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    Missing link?

    Sorry couldn't resist. :P
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    There were HUGE gains even compared to 2009.

    Feb 2009: 109,583
    Feb 2010: 100,027 (with stop sale)
    Feb 2011: 141,846

    Sales outpaced the market by a wide margin. In fact, it was GM and Toyota that caused most of the growth in the market.

    And remember, the NHTSA announcement only came in the middle of the month.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    In fact, it was GM and Toyota that caused most of the growth in the market.

    Interesting how that worked out:

    Buick Tops Lexus — Yes, Lexus (CNBC)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited March 2011
    Buick is kicking asphalt and taking names, but the Regal is *far* from being even a near-luxury car.

    Call it a premium brand, perhaps, more like Acura or VW.

    The Regal starts at $26,245. Even the LaCrosse, at $26,995, would not really quality as near-luxury.

    Not to take anything away from them - I'd love to see that super-cool Regal concept make production.

    The Verano will get them even more volume, but again, it's a Cruze with a nice engine.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,514
    edited March 2011
    The Regal equivalent in Europe is just a midsize (large for them) car, no pretentions.

    Premium car, not luxury, yes.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yup, a rebadged mainstream european sedan.

    Though a much better one than in the old days - remember the Chevy Celebrity Eurosport? LOL
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,514
    My brother once had a Lumina "euro"...white with black and red trim, hoary sounding 3.1, this is why people bought Camcords.

    Actually, it wasn't unreliable, but it did lose a tranny at like 120K. He loaned it to some stupid girl who then wrecked it, and he didn't cry.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Buick is kicking asphalt and taking names, but the Regal is *far* from being even a near-luxury car

    I would call Buick as premium as the ES350 which Lexus is discounting to unload. Or the $26k CT.

    DETROIT – Buick, the fastest growing major automotive brand in the United States in 2010, delivered its 17th straight month of retail sales gains with a 90 percent increase over last February. The brand’s total February sales also improved 73 percent year-over-year, thanks in part to the increased availability of the new fuel-efficient Regal CXL Turbo.

    “Buick is gaining great traction in the midsize sedan, full-size car and crossover segments, thanks in part to very positive word of mouth,” said Brian Sweeney, U.S. vice president of Buick & GMC Sales and Service. “We fully expect the arrival of the fuel-efficient LaCrosse with eAssist and all-new Verano luxury compact to attract even more new customers to the brand.”

    Approximately 38 percent of Buick buyers come from non-GM brands, including nearly 18 percent come from imports, calendar year-to-date.


    That puts Lexus in 5th place so far this year. Will they gain back the lost market share with a cheaper line of cars?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    They could. Might be smarter to focus on margins instead of volume though.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That GM V6 (2.8-3.1 liters) was terrible. It sounded like it was gargling. The whole idea of a "tuned" V6 just didn't work. Didn't they eat gaskets, too?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited March 2011
    CT is supposed to run $29,999.99 and 99/100 or something like that. $30s with freight.

    So even the cheap Lexus is several grand above the Regal and LaCrosse.

    That puts Lexus in 5th place so far this year. Will they gain back the lost market share with a cheaper line of cars?

    When Lexus was #1 you kept saying volume wasn't important, now it suddenly is? Make up your mind.

    No way no how is Buick a luxury brand. That's Cadillac's job at GM.

    Edit: heck, even the Lucerne starts at $29,730. At that price is GM even making a profit? They're just giving them away...
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    No way no how is Buick a luxury brand. That's Cadillac's job at GM.

    Personally, I don't think I know exactly how to define "luxury" any more. I don' t wish to get into a "it is...no, its not" confrontation, so all I will say is this...

    When I visited the auto show earlier this year in the upstate of SC, I took a good look at the Buicks that were on display.

    I remember being quite impressed with how far GM has come in the last few years with the brand. The old marketing slogan for Buick (I think, anyway) was "This isn't your father's Buick...".

    Today, that slogan certainly applies, IMO. My dad had a couple of Buicks, but these are nothing like it...again, at least in appearance. I can't speak for the car's longevity or its performance, but they dang sure have improved in appearance.

    Five years ago I wouln't have given them the time of day. Today, if I was in the market, Buick would certainly be on my list to take a look at....
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,514
    I called them the "popcorn popper". I bet they had some other issues. I remember back in the day an old lady friend of my mom's had a Lumina with it...car was 5 years old and she hated it already.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    My wife had a 1999 Olds Cutlass sedan with the 3.1 V-6 in it. The car was mediocrity personified. I remember the 3.1 having cooling issues. I never hated a car in my household fleet as much as that one! I was happy to see it gone as it was a horrible namesake for the once-proud Oldsmobile marque. I thought of it as the already ugly Malibu's even uglier sister.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited March 2011
    I'm trying to balance being realistic while still acknowledging it's a brand that has come a LONG way and deserves kudos.

    Calling Buick a luxury brand isn't fair to Buick - look at the prices they charge. You could argue they're a strong value, sure.

    But let's keep things in perspective: Lexus entry-level hatchback costs more than Buick's flagship sedan.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    image
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    That post was not really directed as a reply to you... Sorry about that.

    It was merely pointing out Buick sales being are great, but based on the the data, they were in the basement to begin with...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    No need to apologize.

    Wow, though, is my reaction.

    Buick will serve more than its intended purpose, though - GM's expansion in China.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Too predictable, but I like the toilet seat part.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,801
    Feb 2008: 182,169
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • xluxlu Member Posts: 457
    No way no how is Buick a luxury brand. That's Cadillac's job at GM.

    Several years ago, GM divided their luxury brands: Cadillac becomes the performance-luxury brand that competes head-on with BMW, Mercedes-Benz, and Audi, while Buick takes on Lexus, the luxury sales leader in the U.S.

    GM has been following this strategy and achieved some initial success: the sporty Caddy CTS is widely considered a true BMW rival; while the Buick LaCrosse surpassed Lexus in quietness and smoothness.

    Up next, Buick is working on a high end Zeta based luxury car to compete with Lexus LS; while Caddy's XTS competes BMW 7-series.

    link title
  • xluxlu Member Posts: 457
    Buick Tops Lexus — Yes, Lexus

    Remember in 2010, GM only trailed Toyota by a hair in the total volume? GM US sales rose by 34% YTD, China sales is 453k YTD; by this rate, GM will easily surpass Toyota this year.

    Remember in 2010, MB was behind Lexus by a paper thin margin? No need to call MB; the combined volume of the GM's 2 luxury brands is more than twice the volume as Lexus.

    It's interesting to see how fast things change.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That was before the sky starting falling. The entire market collapsed.

    Toyota is half way back. Better than most.

    And why no mention of how poorly Lincoln is doing?

    You guys always, always focus on the the negative, and ONLY the negative. Toyota had a phenomenal month no matter how you try to spin it. Want to bet against big gains in March?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I will believe that when I see Buick prices starting in the 30s for all of their sedans. Right now the Lacrosse is more of an Avalon competitor.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    while the Buick LaCrosse surpassed Lexus in quietness and smoothness.

    And it is better looking than the ES350. The only reason Lexus is more expensive, is a result of being built in Japan. I think the 18% of new Buick buyers coming from the imports is the telling figure. I still remember my friend that sold Buicks back in the 1990s. He switched to selling the faster moving Toyota brand. He went back to selling Buick as it had better repeats and happier customers. Will Lexus have to move factories to the US to compete with Buick?

    I would say the LaCrosse one ups the ES350 with AWD and a 280 HP V6. We have other car people that agree on the comparo being legit:

    Buick Sales Soar Past Lexus
    When you look at the numbers, one success story clearly stands above all: Buick outsold Lexus in February, for the second month in a row. Buick also outsold Mercedes-Benz (if you discount sales of the Sprinter work van), along with Audi and Acura. Only BMW outsold Buick on the strength of BMW’s new X3 SUV. The storied German brand topped Buick by 800 units.

    The story, though, is Buick. With just four vehicles in showrooms — the Enclave crossover and the LaCrosse, Lucerne and Regal sedans — it has outsold the nearly unbeatable Lexus.


    Buick vs Lexus
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It's interesting to see how fast things change.

    Yeah, mostly what you deem important.

    When Lexus sales were sky high, that didn't matter, VOLUME mattered, only because Toyota volume was down.

    Now Toyota volume has sky rocketed, that doesn't matter, what matters is LEXUS sales, only because those are down.

    What changes is the yardstick you use to measure success or failure.

    And remember, Lexus was up .2%, not down. Cars were down, and more profitable trucks were up, too.

    Overall, Toyota is popping champagne corks right now.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited March 2011
    I think the 18% of new Buick buyers coming from the imports is the telling figure.

    That's high to you?

    82% come from domestics.

    So basically they are stealing sales from lame-duck Lincoln.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    So basically they are stealing sales from lame-duck Lincoln.

    Nice try, but Lincoln did not lose as many as Buick has gained. It is quite clear. Buick has regained market share while Lexus has lost market share. Maybe March will be better. Don't lose the faith. :shades:
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    ...is that Toyota now has stake in Subaru, one of the hottest growing brands and one of the only to manage large increases in sales during the recession.

    A "deadly" aquisition IMO...

    Shoot, I was popping a cork when Government Motors let their stake in Fuji go before they obliterated them like they did Isuzu, SAAB and Suzuki. As much as I like Subie more than I do Toyota, I am satisfied to see them in more, um...

    capable hands... :D
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,514
    Sales are one thing, but what about profits?

    Lots of Buicks are still low profit fleet sales.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited March 2011
    You guys are funny...

    Lincoln's sales were down 11%, while Lexus was up 0.2%.

    And you think Lexus is the lame duck?

    And before anyone says "they have new models coming soon", Lexus has 3 new models coming even sooner. The CT is out already, and the IS and GS will probably come before any new Lincoln models do.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Lots of Buicks are still low profit fleet sales.

    That gets back to who owns GM. The Government and the UAW. Got to build x number of cars to keep the UAW workers on the dole. Build and sell the cheapo models for the rental agencies. They all want those volume sales to enhance their numbers. If you are Hertz and have ties to Ford. Are you going to put a lot of HonToys in your rental fleet. Or the oil companies where I worked bought 100% Ford trucks. You only have to stock parts for one brand. When people tout the fleet sales as something bad I have to question there logic. You sell 100 vehicles to one company. One fleet sales person involved. They do all their own maintenance most of the time. Less hassles and they still make a profit on each vehicle sold. Toyota only wishes they could sell 1000s of Tundras to fleets.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,514
    Oh, these fleet sales were an issue long before any bailouts. I don't get the "government" line either - find me a car company that hasn't been coddled by the government where it is based. Heck, historical Korean government involvement in their automaker(s) makes the bailout here look like nothing.

    Toyota does sell tons of Camrys, Corollas, and Yaris to fleets. No Lexus in any fleets I know of though.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,691
    >find me a car company that hasn't been coddled by the government where it is based.

    Exactly the point.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    When we visited Victoria BC it was all Toyota in the rental agencies. I think the exotic car rentals are more into Porsche and Ferrari than luxo barges like Lexus. Alamo rental in Hilo has at least a couple Escalades in their pool. I tried to reserve one and they never seem to be available.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,514
    Around here Camry and Altima are probably the most common rentals. Numbers definitely being padded, I don't remember it being like that 10 years ago.

    Exotic car rentals tend to be private concerns with small groups of cars available - often not even brand new.

    I think a few companies rent Escalades (Hertz for sure) and other Caddys as well.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
  • xluxlu Member Posts: 457
    edited March 2011
    Now Toyota volume has sky rocketed, that doesn't matter, what matters is LEXUS sales, only because those are down.

    Please read my post again; the first paragraph is all about Toyota, not Lexus:

    Remember in 2010, GM only trailed Toyota by a hair in the total volume? GM US sales rose by 34% YTD, China sales is 453k YTD; by this rate, GM will easily surpass Toyota this year.

    Even with the "sky rocketed" sales, Toyota is still no match to GM. So it's almost certain that GM would surpass Toyota this year.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I love pie charts. I used them all the time to baffle our management. And they fell for it every time. Started printing them on a dot matrix printer. Pretty crude by today's standards.

    My question is what happened to Yaris? The car with the most bang for the buck in an econo box.
  • xluxlu Member Posts: 457
    edited March 2011
    I will believe that when I see Buick prices starting in the 30s for all of their sedans. Right now the Lacrosse is more of an Avalon competitor.

    All major car magazines place Buick LaCrosse in the entry level luxury comparison tests against Lexus ES350 and Buick won over Lexus in most of them.

    Buick Enclave, the one which started the recent Buick resurgence, starts at $35k and goes to mid $40k.

    Here's the quote from the Edmunds:

    We're not saying the Lexus ES 350 is not a fine automobile; we're just saying its time has passed as a standard by which entry-level luxury sedans are to be measured. For that, you must consider the 2010 Buick LaCrosse CXS as the new leader in its class.

    At first we questioned GM's strategy, not only with the LaCrosse itself but also with the notion of Buick as a genuine competitor for Lexus. But after this comparison, we have no doubt that the 2010 Buick LaCrosse is a game-changing, brand-defining automobile that will go far to both revitalize Buick and promote the new General Motors.


    Quote from Motor Trend:

    1ST PLACE: BUICK LACROSSE CXS
    Roomy and well equipped, with great presence and pleasant road manners, it redefines the Buick brand for the 21st century.
    2ND PLACE: LEXUS ES 350
    Still defines the segment, but it's starting to feel old and cramped, and, despite the premium price tag, Toyota's cost-cutting is noticeable in places.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    My question is what happened to Yaris? The car with the most bang for the buck in an econo box.

    Around where I live, the price to upgrade from a Yaris to a Corolla was/is next to nothing, and the mileage differential doesn't seem to bother many.

    I suspect many that have gone to the local Toyota dealer with the idea of buying a Yaris actually drove off in a Corolla.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Then why is Buick giving them away for $10 grand less than Lexus? Modern day dumping?

    And let's remember - 4 GM brands are down 100%. Saturn and Pontiac buyers had to go somewhere.

    Can GM really make money selling all 3 of those sedans for less than $30k?

    Heck, we were wondering if Lexus could profit on a $30k hatchback...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Quote from Motor Trend

    I don't consider them much of an authority, personally, but since you do, you must be devastated to hear Camry is their #1 sedan:

    http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_1005_best_selling_midsize_family_- sedan_comparison/2010_toyota_camry.html

    It is their "consensus win".
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited March 2011
    As we don our Ma 'n' Pa Middle America hats and take a walk around this Toyota, we can't help being impressed by the gigantic back seat, huge trunk opening, and breathtakingly simple cockpit ergonomics.

    Sounds to me like the perfect Taxi Cab. I don't recall seeing them used for that. Then I am around cab country less than 1% of the time the last 5 years. I like vehicles with plenty of room for passengers. Chalk One up for Camry.

    PS
    The 2010 Accord I rented last Fall had very poor back seat room.
  • xluxlu Member Posts: 457
    Then why is Buick giving them away for $10 grand less than Lexus? Modern day dumping?

    Either you have very little knowledge about Buick cars or this is a master of maneuvering...

    The entry level Buick LaCrosse at $27k is a 4-cylinder; there's no equivalent Lexus ES350 to compare with.

    The V6 Buick LaCrosse CXS starts at $33765; the equivalent Lexus ES350 is at $36025. How much difference is it?
  • xluxlu Member Posts: 457
    edited March 2011
    but since you do, you must be devastated to hear Camry is their #1 sedan:

    I'm not. There are 3 top selling automobile magazines; Motor Trend happens to be one of them. Among the 3, Road and Track, Car and Driver are both more sports, driving fun minded (R&T more so) while the Motor Trend is more house wife oriented. In that sense, it's no surprise that they picked the Toyota Camry. Since Lexus and Buick are in the more luxury less sporty category, their conclusion of Buick over Lexus is valid too.
  • ctlctl Member Posts: 129
    That's called home-court advantages. Other than in US (and a place where people don't know better :)), the big-3 cars are pretty much second-class citizens. You see anyone in Japan (anyone) buying a Buick? why bother?
  • xluxlu Member Posts: 457
    edited March 2011
    You see anyone in Japan (anyone) buying a Buick? why bother?

    No no, that's for a totally different reason. US, Japan and Germany are the top 3 car making countries. Japanese and Germans are smart enough to defend their home court; only us Americans are liberal enough to think anything imported is better.... That's sad.

    Let's look at China, world's No. 1 automobile market. Although China is also the No. 1 car producing country, but lacking of the home brands make them more neutrally open to all American, Japanese and German cars and none of them have home court advantage there.

    What is happening there? GM is No. 1; GM is on pace to sell more than 2.5 million cars there. Of all GM own brands, Buick is No. 1, more than half a million Buick sold last year. Of all the Buick there, LaCrosse is No. 1. That's a true testimony of which cars are more competitive in a close to none-biased market.

    Buick LaCrosse top GM seller in China

    BTW, have you ever test driven a Buick recently?
  • xluxlu Member Posts: 457
    edited March 2011
    That's called home-court advantages

    I remember that US soccer team played Mexico national team in Pasadena, CA. Who had home court advantage? Majority of the fans were pro-Mexico.

    Don't get me wrong. I love this country; that's why I immigrated here. But sometime I don't like to see some people here not showing their appreciation to this country as they should be. I understand the freedom of choosing whatever you like is part of the foundation which builds this country strong. But overly love affair with the imported goods will eventually come to bite you as it is already happening.
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