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Comments
If I wanted to write something about Lincoln, I would do it on a Lincoln thread.
Toyota has had to change their strategy to move their product since 2008.
It is more in line with the other high volume brands.
At this point, they don't hold any big advantage over their competitors.
Touting a big sales percentage increase for a model that didn't even sell enough last February to fill a mall parking lot, doesn't seem to provide a true picture.
Which isn't a luxury car, or even a near-luxury car for that matter.
You've made the point for me.
OK, then, what about the Camry and Corolla?
You and I both saw that pie chart. High volume + large percetage gains = huge growth.
Link: http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.efda853/13396#MSG13396
Many years ago while sitting in a hot tub with the company ceo along with a dozen or so others, he provided what I took as a piece of wisdom which has stuck with me ever since.
Basically he said he had people throwing numbers at him all the time and many times didn't know what they meant, so he always ask them 'Is that a good number or a bad number?'
Using the Camry as an example(27,200 Feb units), I will expand on that number a bit.
2006 - 448k
2007 - 473k
2008 - 437k
2009 - 327k
2010 - 328k
2011 - Feb # times 12 months = 328k
Is that a good number or a bad number?
For some reason, I am not seeing 'huge growth'.
Which isn't a luxury car, or even a near-luxury car for that matter.
What was that little POC Lexus IS that they sold about 10 years ago. It had to be well below that price point. When My wife saw that she said so much for Lexus they are scraping the bottom of the barrel. You are trying to bring the whole Buick lineup to the least common denominator.
Check the TMV on ES350 and Buick LaCrosse. The ES is selling for Invoice and the Buick close to MSRP. You should go drive the CSX and the ES350 and give us your thoughts. The professionals all say the LaCrosse is beating the ES350. Price only means Lexus has a problem with exchange rates and higher cost to produce. Maybe if they built the ES in the USA with non union labor they could sell for less than the competition.
February is a short month so it's a bit better than that.
Here are the past few February numbers:
2006 - 27,300
2007 - 32,100
2008 - 34,900
2009 - 20,600
2010 - 16,500
2011 - 27,200
2010 number was stunted by sales halt for part of the month.
Toyota had a 12.8% market share in February 2010.
This February it's 14.3%. (vs 15.7% for Ford and 20.8% for GM).
Lexus is down, Toyota is up, over Feb. 2010. Edmunds doesn't have the yearly sales prediction numbers up yet.
The data file you can download here is interesting. DATA CENTER (AutoObserver)
How so?
First, you don't dispute that the CXS is a full entry level luxury car just like the Lexus ES350, right?
Second, Buick is not the only luxury brand offering 4-cylinder cars. MB sells tones of A and B class; BMW 1 series. Does it make MB and BMW none-luxury brand?
I asked the Toyota associate about the reasons to buy the Prius plug-in over the Chevy Volt giving the Volt's electric only drive range is 5 times bigger. He could not give an answer; he just kept saying that these were apples to oranges; the Volt is an electric car while the Prius plug-in is a hybrid. I asked him why did it matter to the consumer; he could not explain. Finally he said the Prius plug-in might be cheaper. I asked what the price would be and he said he did not know. I was surprised that he was not trained to give a more convincing pitch.
The Prius V looks like a small minivan with the rear un-proportionally sticking out. It's roomier inside but not by much.
I then test drove the Camry Hybrid again just not to waste a trip. The test route was in a busy shopping plaza so I was driving at walking speed. At the end the Toyota associate told me that my mpg for the short trip was in the low 20s; the previous 2 drivers was able to make to the 30 because they accelerated slower and drove with more even speed. I laughed. I was driving 100 times less aggressive than I drive normally with my BMW and he told me that I was too aggressive.
No wonder I always see Prius driving crazily slow on the roads; those drivers must be concentrating all their attention to the LCD screen and try to perfect their mpg readings and forget all about driving fun and safety...
I asked the Toyota associate about the reasons to buy the Prius plug-in over the Chevy Volt giving the Volt's electric only drive range is 5 times bigger. He could not give an answer; he just kept saying that these were apples to oranges; the Volt is an electric car while the Prius plug-in is a hybrid. I asked him why did it matter to the consumer; he could not explain. Finally he said the Prius plug-in might be cheaper. I asked what the price would be and he said he did not know. I was surprised that he was not trained to give a more convincing pitch.....
I know the feeling. There was a car show here in January (I think it was January, anyway) and both GM and Toyota touted/hyped their latest "green" machines.
There was a Prius II and IV there, and you could at least sit in them.
Chevy had a Volt on a large turntable, and one couldn't get within 15 feet of the car. Along side of the car was a nicely dressed attractive young lady, willing to answer any questions a viewer might have... just as long as the questions and answers were on her FAQ's sheet. Evidently, it was a short answer sheet.
For the life of me, I can't understand why they wouldn't allow folks to at least sit in the car and look around. After all, it WAS a car show...
Let's look at market share:
In 2006, Camry sold 448k out of 16.6 million cars total, 2.70% share.
In 2010, Camry sold 328k our of 11.6 million cars total, 2.83% share.
2011 is 40.2% ahead of 2010. For reference the market is up 23%. Like I said, BIG gains. This is an old model, came out long ago. Beating the market by more than 17% is HUGE, period.
Market share for the brand was 15% in 2006 and remained at 15% for 2010. So much for the doom-and-gloom predictions.
So far in 2011 they are 30% up in a market up 23%.
A-class is not a luxury car by a long shot.
Mercedes had to use the Maybach name on its prestige line of cars for that reason.
I just saw a Cruze lease for $159. The Volt is based on the Cruze, only smaller, with 4 passengers instead of 5. The lease is $349. So for more than twice the price, you get a Cruze Light.
Can you really save $190 a month on gas? Even driving 1000 miles a month, you'll easily get 25+mpg on a Cruze, that's 40 gallons, or $160 even if gas hits $4 per gallon for regular 87 octane. And that's assuming electricity is FREE, which it isn't. Never mind the long-term costs of battery replacement (a lease takes that out of the equation, so I'm giving the Volt a best-case scenario).
A Prius can break even; a Volt never will.
Further discussion here:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f1c530a/531#MSG531
The professionals all say the LaCrosse is beating the ES350
When you disagree with them, they are clearly biased and get all their money from ad revenue from the car makers.
When you agree with them, they are professionals!
Nice!
Which professionals have I disagreed with on auto issues, other than CR which I consider far less than a professionally run operation? Edmund's on the other hand I consider top of the line when it comes to comparisons.
Is Buick the New Lexus?
So it was only a little surprising that when the all-new 2010 Buick LaCrosse CXS (base price of $33,765) arrived at Edmunds HQ, it appeared more than prepared to take on the 2009 Lexus ES 350 at $35,345.
Anyone who doubts the LaCrosse's mission is to compete with the ES 350 need only scan the lengthy standard equipment list and drive one a couple hundred yards. As Dan Pund said in our Full Test of the LaCrosse CXS, "Really, people, you're going to have to get past your whole Buick thing. Wake up; times are changing."
And judging from your interest in our quick test of the 2010 Buick LaCrosse CXL with its 3.0-liter V6 and our full test of the LaCrosse CXS with its 3.6-liter V6, this all-new Buick has your attention, as well it should.
Lazy Boy
When we drove the LaCrosse and ES 350 side-by-side during our comparison testing, it was immediately evident that the standard, heated/ventilated, leather-upholstered front seats in the 2010 Buick LaCrosse CXS were far more comfortable and supportive than the ES 350's optional seats. (Leather upholstery isn't even standard on the 2009 Lexus ES 350.) Extra point for Buick that these easy chairs also boast handsome and well-executed double stitching, a detail that's evident throughout the cabin.
That makes February 2011 gains seem larger than they would have been without the sales halt from February 2010.
Don't forget to figure in that Ford and GM are selling quite a few less brands than they were a year or two ago.
It costs a lot more to move one of those Camry's now.
Maybe that will change, but not seeing any signs of it.
Besides Motor Trend, Cars.com and Motorweek put Camry very near the top in their comparisons, too. You've dismissed (or at least ignored) those comparos in the past.
Toyota's incentives last month were more than $500 less than the industry average. Sales were up 49% for the brand despite that handicap.
Yes, incentives are up, but across the board. On a relative scale, Toyota's incentives are lower than competitors', even now.
2 years maintenance is worth, what, a hundred bucks? A couple of oil changes and one tire rotation. Big whoop.
Just as I would not have been interested in a comparison between an ES350 and the LaCrosse. However you made the rash statement that Buick was not in the same league as Lexus because of the price point. Which I have found Lexus to be about 20% over value. I am just agreeing with the different people that make it there business to compare. Buick is in the same league as Lexus according to several sources.
And I agree CR does not take advertising money. Only donations. How convenient is that? There are threads that discuss such things. Did CR make a comparo between the brands?
A few of their loaded up flagship sedans compare with some lower-end Lexus models, sure, but volume is up because of the introduction of 4 cylinder models that don't compare at all.
Buick will keep growing - the Verano will bring an even lower price point. Will you consider that a luxury car?
Just read that after I posted...
Not sure, but I think they rate each company as one, with all brands included. IIRC it was Honda & Subaru, with Toyota then I think Ford close behind.
And Lexus only has two models that are luxury in my opinion. The LS and LX. The rest are wannabe luxury. If Lexus depended on their true luxury cars to carry them they would be in deep doo doo. They diluted the brand at the start with the ES fancy Camry. Several other major so called luxury brands have done the same when it worked for Lexus. So as far as I am concerned you are playing a semantics game. Buick has cars that compete with Lexus. No two ways about it. And according to some experts Buick is beating Lexus at their own game. You are sounding just like the guys over at ClubLexus. They hate that Lexus is getting beat in the numbers game.
Don't fret 5th place ain't that bad.
Call it wannabe if you'd like, but then so is the Audi A3, BMW 1 series, and Mercedes A- and B- classes, even the Aston Martin Cygnet. LOL
Buick has cars that compete with Lexus
If we only count those models that do, Lexus is winning by a wide margin. Like I said, it's the 4 cylinder Regal and entry models that have added volume for Buick.
The Regal is a mainstream European sedan, it doesn't even pretend to be a luxury car.
Come to think of it, labeling it that way isn't fair to Buick. They found their niche, and they are doing well there.
The Verano will be no more a luxury car than the Cadillac Cimarron was. That's OK, but it's also why I think it's unfair to label Buick as luxury. It's simply not their mission.
Let's turn this around a bit - which Toyota model mimicks Buick? Guess what - it's the Avalon, and not any Lexus.
I think it could be argued that the Avalon is more Lexus like than the ES350. Has anyone done a head to head with those two? Probably lose their Toyota advertising dollars if they did. When I think about luxury I think of all the passengers as well as the driver. You would be hard pressed to call the ES350 sporty in any way. Nor is it luxurious with its cramped back seat. That would kill it as a luxury car for me. The Avalon has 5 more inches of rear leg room. The ES350 is cramped by any standard with only 35 inches in the back seat. Most people would be embarrassed to take friends out to dinner in one. Calling the ES350 anything but a doo dad loaded, shrunk down fancy Camry would be a misnomer.
It's basic math.
Say 2 oil changes and a tire rotation cost $60 per vehicle. Multiply that by 1.8 million vehicles.
I'll do the math. Just under 110 million dollars.
Manufacturers try to take pennies per component of cost out of each vehicle.
Adding $60 back in for marketing purposes has to cause some frustration to all those engineers.
I can't say about the Avalon, but I do agree that the definition of "luxury" has gotten "fuzzy".
Is a Hyundai Genesis luxury? How about the Hyundai Equus?
How do we define a luxury make nowadays?
I agree that price-points mean far less than they once did...
Agreed, but then again it doesn't pretend to be. I've said it before & I'll say it again: if you want sporty, you have to buy German. End of story.
Nor is it luxurious with its cramped back seat. That would kill it as a luxury car for me.
You're confusing the pre-2007 ES 300 & ES 330 with the current generation ES 350. Back seat legroom in my wife's '99 ES 300 was tight. But a 6-foot tall rear seat passenger can sit comfortably behind a 6-foot tall driver in her ES 350. We always take her car when we're traveling with friends, & they're always impressed by the accommodations.
Calling the ES350 anything but a doo dad loaded, shrunk down fancy Camry would be a misnomer.
Fit & finish as well as quality of materials are vastly superior in the Lexus.
PS
Most of our friends are older than us in their 70s. I watch them strain getting out of the LS400. While getting in and out of the Sequoia is so much less of a strain. If it was two inches lower it would be perfect ingress and egress. For me it is just right. I just sit and swing around.
I've ridden in the back seat of my wife's best friend's '09 Avalon, & I won't deny that it has more legroom. But the difference isn't great enough to influence one's buying decision.
I do think that the ES 350's front seats are more comfortable.
Anyway, who wants to be forced to choose between 2 such dull cars? I'd rather agonize over a BMW M3 versus an Audi S4.
I don't know about the absolute validity of that comment, but it is what I did.
In 2010, I was shopping for a nice drop-top convertible and narrowed my choice down to a BMW 328i and a Lexus IS 250.
I was sensitive to the rear-view characteristics, as my wife has a MINI convertible, and rear visibility in it is horrible.
The Lexus was nice, but it felt like I was sitting in a hole in the back seat, and the rear visibility in it was no where as good as the BMW's...
For me, that was the primary determining factor in my selection. I like the way the IS looked, but the visibility issue was too much for me to overlook. Its an issue that I have seen others mention on other forums.
The ES' back seat is actually quite comfy, have you sat in one?
Handicap = $500 less in incentives cost, just to be clear.
A decade ago competitors offered $500 cash back, now they are offering 6 years no interest, thousands back, and all sorts of gimmicks.
Toyota had to budget, but don't forget - competitors started a price war, not Toyota. Remember the $1000 rebates if you traded a Toyota? That's as direct a price war declaration as can be.
Cadillac Shield includes 4 years' free maintenance, for instance. That actually costs a bunch more.
Both have useless back seats.
No, not since 2007. If my knees touch the front seat with the drivers seat back, I consider it too small. The X5 BMW lists an inch more rear leg room than the ES350 and it was not comfortable IMO. I do not believe in subjecting my passengers to anything I would not like. Always my second move from the drivers seat to the back seat. In most vehicles I drive with the seat all the way back. So I set the front seat and crawl into the back seat. If the car does not pass that test it is not a likely candidate for me.
At a car show I actually sampled all the back seats and the one sedan that stood out as most comfortable was an ES.
No, I would not want to drive one, but short of a Maybach or Equus or LS L back seat, it's among the plushest if you are a passenger.
The one thing Lexus does best is pamper you.
That is so true. Always a loaner car upon request, even if you didn't buy the Lexus from them. Treatment and courtesy second to none. I have never been treated with so much respect at any GM dealer. Even Cadillac.
In my case, a 1 series wasn't in the running, as I wanted a drop-hard-top, not a rag top.
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20110301-713604.html
leasing made up 38% of Chevrolet Cruze models sold last month, and 69% for the Buick Regal
Odd that people aren't buying them.
Also, GM's incentives were $1100 or so higher than Ford's, which in turn were $500 higher than Toyota. So GM is spending $1600 more per car than Toyota. Cheap leases? 4 years' maintenance? Both?
It'll buy you sales in the short-term, but profits?
No wonder GM's sales numbers for Feb looked so much better than Ford's.
You have to replace soft tops every 8-10 years. I did so twice on my last one.
PRHTs for me.
Do any Toyota competitors (Chevy, Chrysler, Ford, Hyundai, Kia) offer 'free maintenance'?
Comparing 16k Corolla 'free maintenance' to 40k Cadillac 'free maintenance'?
There is a whole lot more room to give something 'free' with a Cadillac.
Toyota's plan just means they need a new incentive to get the owners back into the service department to make those 'secret repairs'. :P
Afraid I agree. I own a Camry Hybrid, and am disappointed in it. Power is very poor, it does get better mileage than the gas version, but not so much as to justify the initial premium to buy the car. I have 50,000 miles on it now, and would not buy another Hybrid as they are today.
The Camry does not compete in a vacuum.
If competitors offer huge incentives and start a price war, Toyota has to respond. That's what is going on now - $2500 on Malibu per Edmunds.
Buick had a great February, sure, but what people are overlooking is the fact that they had 77 days of inventory piling up on dealer lots and had to plunk $4000 cash back on the hood of the [edit: had the wrong model] Lucerne. $4 grand!
In comparison Lexus had just 15 days' inventory. They didn't do better simply because they didn't have enough cars on the lot.
Makes the 2 years' free maintenance seem like a pittance.