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Up near Beacon? Isn't that where GE dumped millions of pounds of PCBs into the river?
Funny thing is, for all the ragging the '57 DeSoto has taken here lately, the '57 Mopars were considered to be by far the best handling cars of their period. Motortrend named the entire '57 lineup as their Car of the Year. Okay, so they also bestowed that honor on the Vega, Volare, Citation, Horizon, and Alliance , but once upon a time, that title really meant something. Also, when you consider that all of Ford and Chrysler, and most of GM were all-new, it's not like they just won by default of being the only new car out that year.
When I was in college, I worked a couple years as a waiter for Denny's. This was before I had gotten my '57 DeSoto. I was talking with one of the managers, and he told me he once had a '57 Fireflite 4-door hardtop. It was considered a loser car by 1965, but it would shut up the owners of many much more desireable cars once it was put into action and walked them in a drag race. He sold that car and bought a 1957 Chevy Bel Air convertible with a 283. While the Bel Air was a much cooler car for a high school kid to have, he said that DeSoto would run rings around it.
Believe it or not, one of Consumer Report's gripes about the 1957 DeSoto is that they were OVER powered! Back then, they'd often put little cartoons in their magazine poking fun at this or that, and they tended to have fun poking at the auto industry. One of their 1957 issues showed a cartoon of a car going airborne on a hill in a way that would put Beau and Luke Duke to shame. The driver had a big, poop-eating grin on his face. And while the car was a made-up cartoon car, it bore a strong resemblance to a 1957 DeSoto.
As for the handling, yeah it's going to be nightmarish by today's standards. And if you put someone behind the wheel of a '57 DeSoto who's only driven modern cars all their life, they're either going to be overly cautious or they're going to kill themselves. But if you grew up with these types of cars, you'll know how to handle them. Hell, I remember when I bought the car from an elderly couple, the wife said one reason they held onto it for so long was because she LIKED the way it handled in bad weather! I guess one thing the car might have had on its side was the high ground clearance. That, plus the narrow 8.50X14 bias ply tires allowed it to plow through the snow fairly easily.
As for braking? Those "Total Contact" brakes work beautifully. WHEN they work, that is. The drums are 12" in diameter. Just for comparison, GM was still putting tiny 9.5" drum brakes as standard equipment on its intermediates in 1973. And by that time, some 1973 intermediates weighed as much as a 1957 DeSoto! Unfortunately, they go out of adjustment very quickly, and when the whole system goes boobs up, you have two wheel cylinders per side to replace up front, instead of just one. And you need a special tool to get to the rears. I'm looking into having mine converted to disc brakes up front and, if not disc in the back, at least the more modern type of drum brakes that are easy to get to.
Overall, if you try to compare a 1957 DeSoto to a modern car, it's going to be inferior in just about every respect except maybe load capacity. Most modern cars are technically overloaded once you get four beefy adults inside. But they were pretty good for their era, so long as you could keep the rust off of them, and you didn't get a leaky one.
The Center Plane brakes were a nightmare to adjust properly but when everything was as it should be, they stopped pretty good.
In high school, a friend bought a 1957 Dodge D-500. It was near perfect and he paid, I think 200.00. It had the hemi V-8 and it would SMOKE almost ayone who tried to race him.
Yeah, those things were pretty brutal. IIRC, they came standard with a 325 Hemi 4-bbl with 285 hp, or a dual quad with 310. There was also an optional 354 dual quad Hemi pumping out 340 hp!
The Chrysler 300C came with a 392 Hemi with dual quads that put out 375 hp standard or 390 in optional tune. I've always wondered how the D500 would compare to a 300C? Less HP, but they also weighed about 400 lb less. I wonder if that was enough to make much difference?
They also had a wide variety of axle ratios back in those days, with some of them as short as ~6.17:1. That would give a crazy 0-60 time I guess, but would probably limit your top speed to something embarrasingly low. I have a shop manual that lists the standard axle ratio for 1957 at 3.31:1 with the 3-speed Torqueflite, and 3.54:1 with the 2-speed Powerflite.
I spent age 6 to maybe 13 riding around in a 57 Plymouth Custom Suburban. I remember being at the dealership with my dad. They has a red and white DeSoto wagon in there that I thought was about the sharpest thing I'd ever seen (I WAS six). I tried in vain to convince him to buy it.
As soon as my youngest brother was old enough to let himself in the car he decided the push button transmission was cool (he was 2 or 3) and he'd pull on the buttons, leaving the car inoperable. The second time the mechanic came around to fix it he showed my mom how to do it. It was very easy and the end of my brother's adventures.
Didn't somebody say you could swap out the brakes from an M-body onto that DeSoto?
I'd love to see that car someday. I'd love to get something like a 1957 Chrysler 300-C hardtop if I ever came into some money.
Oh yeah, I definitely like the style of something like that compared to what's out there today. But cars on the whole are so much better. Probably about the only thing a '57 DeSoto could do better than today's cars is go off-roading (high ground clearance and skinny tires), carry 6 people (cars built today just don't have the shoulder room and there are too many other intrusions...you really need an SUV or minivan), and survive a low-speed impact (well, the car would survive, but the driver might not if he got thrown into the steering wheel just right! But the next of kin would have a lower repair bill to get that car running again!)
Didn't somebody say you could swap out the brakes from an M-body onto that DeSoto?
It's actually a mix and match of parts to convert these things from drum to disc, but I seem to recall that one of the components is the brakes off of either an M-body or a police-spec F-body (Aspen/Volare).
To do the rear conversion, the easiest way is supposedly an E-body rear end (Challenger/Barracuda) with the rear disc brakes from a '79-85 Eldorado/Riviera/Toronado!
I'm thinking about having it done with my car. It needs brake work, anyway.
The thing nowadays is while the cars are excellent overall there is precious little to distinguish one from another. Back in the day of your DeSoto as soon as a car was more or less in my line of sight I could tell what it is. Now I'll see something coming and not know until it's closer if it's a Corolla, a Mazda Protege. maybe a Sentra....
Add to that the manufacturers change nothing in appearance for years. Look at my Accord and it could be as early as 98 or as late as 02. It happens to be in the middle but you'd only know that by looking at the registration.
Having said that, I would like to have one of those 57 Chrysler 300s or a Dodge or Desoto. :shades:
One person I got to know at Carlisle Productions told me that in the Snow Belt, by 1959, it was not uncommon to see 1957 Plymouths with the fenders completely rotted away around the headlight hoods.
One of my old-car magazines tested a 1958 DeSoto hardtop coupe (forget which model, but it wasn't the Adventurer). The car had a piece of chrome trim just ahead of the rear wheel, along the wheel opening. Apparently, when owners brought their cars to the dealers and complained about rust in that area, the "solution" was to bolt on this piece of chrome to (temporarily) hide the rust!
Interesting that by 1960, Rambler had almost knocked Plymouth out of third place...and would do so for 1961.
What also interests me is that Ford also produced a car with lousy quality in 1957 (and Mercury was, if anything, even worse), but the division's total sales really didn't suffer that much, compared to the sales of Plymouth (and the rest of Chrysler). Ford sales were down in 1958, but not by much more than the market as a whole, and sales really went back up with the boxy 1959 models. In many ways, 1957 was one of Plymouth's last good years.
As for which would I rather drive - old cars are fun to look at, and take for a spin around town, but for any highway driving, I'll take a new car. I had a 1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Holiday coupe for several years. It was fun to drive around town, but on the highway the car's mattress-like ride and handling made it scary to take over 65 mph. The brakes didn't give one confidence (front disks were not standard on the Cutlass even in 1972), and the shoulder belt had no inertia reel, so that once you were buckled in snugly, you were really buckled in, and couldn't even move enough to reach the radio!
Americans rushed to swap their thirsty trucks and SUVs for fuel-efficient cars in April, making the month a turning point for the industry’s biggest segment shift in memory.
The stampede to cars left in the dust a Detroit Three that simply weren’t ready for its magnitude because of their reliance on truck-based vehicles, while it lifted Japanese automakers whose traditional strength has remained in small cars.
As U.S. consumers definitively reacted to $3.50-a-gallon gasoline, passenger cars outsold truck-based vehicles for the first time in at least 20 years. The move comprised a shift of six percentage points for the industry compared with last April, to 54 percent car sales.
Look, ma, no sales!
Regards,
OW
The Donkey has not a clue--except they want our economy to get trashed by election 08..So hold on for the slide..
Yep, Detroit got skinned in April on sales, however to rush out and buy an Asian 4 cylinder creation will cost you dearly and probably only save you a grand/yr in gas expenses..
Meanwhile drive up to Alaska and hug a Caribou..So far the tree-huggers are going to dictate how you and your families will live..
At my age I really give a hoot if gas goes to $6.00/gal++++, for life will not suffer, and we will keep on buying the Detroit iron..no-half pint cars in my future...
Bought a pair of "New Balance" tennis shoes yesterday, and they were made in the USA, not China...maybe 30% of the contents came from Asia, but it was produced here and most of the $$$$ stay in the good old USA.. Happy day!!
Tomorrow is fill-up gas day, premium grade at my favorite pump which will be off about 40%..so I am only paying about $2.20/gal...plus rebate for using their charge card..Such a deal!!!!
Buy American, you will feel better keeping our $$$$$s at home...
Ford’s “newish, small vehicles are bright spots,” reported Jessica Caldwell, sales analyst 2008_ford_focus_240_2 for Edmunds.com.
None is so more than Focus, the subcompact whose recent sales results continue to buoy Ford. Sales rose 44 percent in April and are up 29 percent for the year to date. April was the best sales month for Focus since 2000, Pipas said. Moreover, the car’s share of its segment was more than 9 percent, an improvement of three percentage points from a year ago, said Jim Farley, Ford’s group vice president of marketing and communications.
Farley said that Focus transaction prices “haven’t deteriorated” in large part because so many consumers are opting for the high-end SES version and for Sync by Microsoft, the electronic-interface system.
Sales of the Fusion mid-size sedan continued their slow but steady rise, posting a 22 percent increase for April and 6 percent year-to-date.
In an important bright spot, sales of the Ford Edge crossover rose 13 percent in April and are up 38 percent year-to-date.
So the best selling vehicle in America had a pull back, but all of the young upstarts seem to be maturing nicely. The Focus guys had to add another shift, somebody must be buying them.
Just a a hint...I see many hybrid Japanese out there, yet very scarce US Hybrids. These conlclusions are self evident of the strategic direction of these industry players.
There is good/bad for all auto manufacturers...it seems bleeding isn't over yet on this side of the pond.
Regards,
OW
To think politically, if Obama or Clinton is elected, I would not be surprised if the day after the election, suddenly the Democrats come up with the brilliant idea to drill in ANWR and off the coasts...and their constituencies are dumb enough to think that they came up with a new idea...after all, if they do it now, Bush might get credit (that he, or no one deserves) for simply drilling where we know there is oil, but if gas cost came down, they couldn't beat Bush over the head with it...
Altho, in 2006, wasn't it the Democrats saying that they would bring down gas prices from what they were then???...does that mean we can blame THEM since gas has doubled on their watch, since THEY took over, while Bush has simply been a constant...:):):)
If you really believe that, I have this lovely bridge I'd like to sell you. Wonderful view of Brooklyn.
Let's go over some things involved with buying "Detroit Iron."
#1 - The iron is coming from another country these days, most likely.
#2 - I hope your home is in Canada or Mexico, where GM and Ford build many of their vehicles
#3 - All the extra money you put into the gas tank to push that American Iron goes to our pal Chavez and his OPEC buddies.
#4 - What actually goes to America companies (Mobil, GM, etc) probably goes to corporate honchos, who proceed to buy themselves nice European and Carribean vacations.
How much is staying in the US again?
Our economy has been trashed since 9/11 basically...the plan to stimulate the economy to recover turned out to be unsustainable, just like the current plan probably will be. Why? Because we have a government with the same attitudes as our corporations: "Just get me through this patch, and I'll leave the bigger mess to the next guy." No one thinks long term because by then it's someone else's job.
There is good/bad for all auto manufacturers...it seems bleeding isn't over yet on this side of the pond.
I don't know, the Fulan hybrids will be out soon, the Escape hybrid seems to be doing fine, and there are plenty of options for people that pay $2000-3000 extra for a sense of environmentalism and a tax credit.
The GM "mild hybrids" aren't enough of a benefit I guess, as was the case with the Accord hybrid.
There are enough customers, the market is big enough. There are different cars for different populations and demands. It seems GM and Toyota are aiming at the middle, and everyone else is trying to be to the left and right of center.
Of the US hybrids, 2 are sedans. The Asians have 5. We need more hybrid sedans to choose from.
Regards,
OW
The Tahoe and Yukon hybrids are really the same vehicle and so are the Escape, Tribute and Mariner.
The Malibu and Aura hybrid are also sort of the same and they are mild hybrids if I remember correctly so the worst of both worlds. You pay more for the hybrid drive train with all its extra weight but don't see much gas mileage improvement.
The Highlander and RX400h Hybrids are also very similar but not quite the straight badge jobs that the Tahoe and Yukon are. The Highlander//RX400 are also more performance oriented hybrids. The other two Lexus hybrids are also performance oriented ones and really don't save any gas. In fact instead of buying the 600H you would probably be better off buying a aluminum bodied XJ if gas mileage and uniqueness were your goals.
So to sum up actualy unique hybrid models we have...
1. Tahoe/Yukon
2. Mariner/Escape/Tribute
3. Highlander/RX400h
4. Malibu/Aura
5. Camry
6. Prius
7. Vue
8. Altima
9. Civic
10. GS450h
11. LS600h L
and thats it.
Regards,
OW
I disagree. I think its quite silly to pay 2-3k extra for e vehicle to go from 31 mpg to 34 mpg (Toyota Camry 4cyl/5spd auto to Toyota Camry Hybrid). It 3mpg is worth 3k for you, than thats fantastic.
On the other hand, the Escape hybrid, which can tow a boat or a pop-up trailer, increases the fuel economy from 19/24 to 34/30 over its ICE only sibling.
The issue with the Tahoe is the hybrid is packaged in such a way that its about $6000 more than the standard model. That is pretty pricey (over 50k).
I personally would rather have a fuel efficient well packaged conventional ICE vehicle, since my driving is primarily highway and I don't care for CVTs.
Considering Camry and an increase from 31- 39 MPG. That's $1,584 over 60K miles @ 25% gain (39 MPG) and $2,208 over 60K @ 40% gain (43.4 MPG). Price equity must be reached under these scenarios.
As you say, cost benefit isn't there yet. I am not in the market until the model for alternative energy is beneficial. I am with you on mostly highway so no sense to switch. That would be my wife who is thinking Hybrid Highlander (short trips 80%). 27 mpg city beats her Yukon by 15 mpg. That would be over $11,000 savings over 60K.
Regards,
OW
That is pretty much my point. Big vehicles with hybrid drivetrains make a lot of sense to me. The Yukon is 14/19 while the hybrid Yukon is 20/20, the base Highlander is 17/23 and the hybrid is 27/25. That savings in fuel costs coupled with the tax break for buying a hybrid help its business case.
It also comes down to your needs. The Tahoe is much larger than than the Highlander and has more towing capacity. A Mazda5 has 3 rows of seating, gets 21/27, and is under 20k to purchase.
When a Tahoe gets 30 MPG, GM will be smiling! It can be done.
Regards,
OW
What I have seen:
Fewer large SUVs on the road - good.
Slower traffic - eh...good for safety.
Less people at the mall - bad for retail.
Higher food prices - bad for everybody.
Justification for hybrid owners - good if you own a Prius.
Less traffic at gas stations - good.
It keeps the miles off my new Cadillac DTS Performance - good for the car, but it sucks to have a new car I barely drive. If I knew there would be such a quick run-up in fuel prices, maybe I'd have bought a V-6 CTS or STS instead.
DETROIT -- The UAW this morning struck a General Motors assembly plant that makes the hot-selling Chevrolet Malibu sedan. Members of UAW Local 31 in Kansas City, Kan.,walked out at 10 a.m. EDT at GM's Fairfax assembly plant.
The stoppage came after GM failed to reach a local operating contract with the union, said a secretary at UAW Local 31. Another UAW local has been striking GM's crossover assembly plant near Lansing, Mich., for the last few weeks.
Regards,
OW
Have you noticed our Politicans are arguing about the dropping the Fed. Gas tax over the summer driving season, and no one mentions drilling for more oil or new refineries.. Ethanol created a ton of problems and the Donkey folks are mum..Both parties are slipping on addressing our problems thinking that tiny cars will solve our problems and will run on whatever we find in our garbage cans..
The bright side----filled up the GPGT yesterday and MPG figured out to be 29.9, all city driving a/c running w/sunroof open.. Who needs a silly looking Prius!!!! The Asian tin-can hybrid is not in my future..
Recommended read "Liberal Fascism"... It shows how our country has slowly sunk into a scenerio that explains the actions of the Donkey folks in grasping the Climate Change theme..
Their have been references on this forum that I am unaware that lots of offshore content is being used in the Big3 production of cars and trucks..On the supply side to the Big3 in my past life I competed against Japan,Brazil, China, Italy, and Germany in the area of steel forgings and casting.. Lost a few deals and won some big ones..I represented domestic suppliers. China was dirt cheap and lacking quality with a strained supply chain. Japan was tough to beat in certain areas and the balance of the countries had their niche products..
China is drilling for oil about 50 miles offshore from Maimi, Fl..Any outrage from our Congressional folks--not a peep!!!!!
Same said GOP president has screamed bloody murder over ANWAR but has taken a pass in Florida because people in Florida don't want it and Florida is a swing state.
McCain and Clinton both favor this dropping the gas tax for the summer. It's still a ridiculous proposition.
McCain used to have some credibility on ethanol until he flip flopped on it. He now supports it.
Regards,
OW
Man that is hard to believe. A 4cyl Cobalt would have a hard time getting that kind of mileage. I filled up my wife's '07 GP after she made a 350 mile round trip that was 95% hwy at 70mph. Mileage was 24.7 mpg. This car has 26k and has never gotten over 25 mpg and my wife basically drives the speed limit.
I don't know how you can stand a GP. It's horribly uncomfortable, cramped, rides like crap, and doesn't handle particularly well either, not to mention how pathetic the interior is, cheap and cheesy. Fit and finish is terrible, the doors don't line up with roof line. Since my wife's GP is a company car, we're counting the days until this POS gets replaced. We take the Suburban at 14 mpg any time we go any where 'cause neither of wants to ride in the GP.
No thanks teacher, I'll take the zero.
Regards,
OW
The G8 is only made in Austrailia until they convert a plant here to make it here. At least they kept the construction "in house" as Holden has been a subsidiary of GM since 1922.
My wife's 2003 Yukon is as reliable as a 46 yr old Corvair!
Regards,
OW
Real gas mileage is around 19-20 in town, but the 29.9 is because of a screwed gas pump where I buy my fuel..I burn premium..I am sure this gas gift will not last forever, and it is interesting to see how long it takes the dummies running this station to figure out they are going broke..The owners are probably from the desert country across the Altantic Ocean..Not much on conversation and when I ask them if their gas contained ethanol, their reply was "ethanol good"..period.. Maybe they own a liguor store where I can get Markers Mark for $25.,1.75L..Prices in the Sarasota county run from 49.95 down to 32..
Your wife's company car is probably the plain Grand Prix, no frills or bells and whistles, however it should get better gas mileage..Hey it's a free car and 25 mpg is alot better than 14 mpg per Suburban..
I just love the American cars, however Detroit has never been too swift in building small cars with a robust 4-cylinder engine..Don't forget the Japanese and all their neighbors relied on motorcycles and tiny cars since the beginning of time and the Americans liked the big stuff which we could load up with goodies and travel long distances..That's America, folks..Great life which is disappearing at an astonishing rate..
One immediate difference would be both Ward and June would be working. Instead of a sleek new 1959 Plymouth, Ward would be driving some boring Camry and June a Kia minivan. Ward would announce that he just got laid-off, June would tell him the bank is going to foreclose on their once-beautiful home in a once upper-middle class neighborhood that is now a ghetto scarred with gang graffiti as gunfire is heard in the distance. Wally would be a Gothic meth-head trying to escape from the reality that he got Mary Ellen Rogers pregnant as Beaver's telling him about Larry Mondello "going Columbine" at Grant Avenue Elementary.
Not impressive to me, although the brakes are original and we are at 58K. Driving experience is very good but when my wife stalled out with the MAP failure and the P/S pump fiasco, not too safe and lucky she could keep control during no-power condition and no steering!!
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
http://www.forbes.com/forbeslife/vehicles/2008/05/05/cars-expensive-repairs-forb- - eslife-cx_jm_0505cars.html?feed=rss_forbeslife_vehicle