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Comments
Couldn't be more wrong with that statement...
According to Edmunds:
The sticker for our loaded CTS reads $46,690, but Cadillac wasn't content letting us pay sticker. Martin Automotive Group in Los Angeles dropped $3,000 from the bottom line immediately. Then the sales representative asked if we would qualify for a Luxury Conquest rebate. Well, we'd recently bought a long-term 2008 Mercedes C300, so yes, we did. Sort of. It was good enough for them. That was another $1,500 off.
When all was said and done, we paid $42,272 including tax — $4,418 below the pre-tax, pre-paperwork MSRP.
Source: Long-Term Test: 2008 Cadillac CTS V6 DI
Also according to Edmunds, for a CTS V6 DI with typical equipments in 90505 area:
MSRP: $44,490
Invoice: $40,734
TMV (True Market Value): $41,681
Thanks for bringing it to my attention and accept my humble apology for misstating the facts..
As inventories build the pricing will be slashed as usual...
Good PR for the California Caddy dealer involved in the Edmunds sale, for I imagine their name will be appearing throughtout the test cycle on service and warranty items..California is import haven and any opportunity to get Detroit iron on test is a plus..
Definitely not at MSRP but a "hot" car should have an actual transaction price that's closer to MSRP than invoice. Not the case for CTS around where I live.
To idiots I hope...
True?
The 2009 Mitsubishi Galant and 2009 Nissan Murano have been introduced and I've seen ads for the 2009 Toyota Camry and Corolla. Early introductions of new model year products have happened from all manufacturers. Chrysler introduced the first Neon in January 1994 as a 1995 model and Ford introduced the 1997 F-Series in January 1996. It's not uncommon.
This idea could save the Big 3!
Wonder what a Gore-mobile will look like---polar bear or a caribou???? or an ear of corn????
Government induced oil-crisis is reshaping the USA.
Aren't all the bicycles made in China now????
What are you talking about? Let's count them:
Honda Civic Si
Mazda Mazdaspeed 3
Mazda Miata MX-5
Mini Cooper S
VW GTI
Subaru WRX/WRX STi
Mitsubishi Evo (and the upcoming Lancer ralliart)
BMW 1-series
Also, Toyota has just announced the RWD compact sports car that's in co-development with Subaru. It'll be on sale on 2011.
Chevy is updating the Cobalt SS to the 260hp turbo charged 4cyl from the Solstice GXP. That might put a smile on your face.
Who's fault is that?
You asked for fun cars, not "domestic" fun cars...
Unfortunately, that would be a short list.
Fun by my standards:
Buick LaCrosse Super
Buick Lucerne Super
Cadillac CTS (Hopefully a V coming soon!)
Cadillac DTS Performance
Cadillac STS-V
Cadillac XLR-V
Chevrolet Camaro
Chevrolet Corvette
Chevrolet Impala SS
Chrysler 300-C SRT8
Dodge Charger Hemi
Dodge Challenger
Dodge Viper
Ford Mustang GT
Pontiac G8
Well yeah, but I think he was listing small, fun, affordable cars (BMW 1 series may be a stretch for many), not supercars. Then the list grows by a whole bunch when you have $100k to spend.
(no, not that kind of flashback :P ).
They were pretty nimble even if Bugs got blown all over the road whenever a semi passed you.
If Mexico is not bad enough, the Chevy Equinox engine 3.4 L is made in CHINA How many buyers are aware of that? That is outrageous to me! If China is willing to send us toys with lead, pet food with poison, and ingrediences in our medicine that is wrong, and defective tires, what makes anyone think that the vehicle parts are any more up to safe standards?
In the seventies many union members has a bumper sticker that said something like IF YOU LOOSE YOUR JOB AFTER BUYING AN IMPORT CAR, AND YOU GET HUNGRY FROM LACK OF A JOB TRY EATING YOUR IMPORT CAR.
Starting in about 1987 I began buying vehicles that had the most Americian content, that fit our need. The vehicle we have now has a 83% Americian content. It's a Chrysler Pacifica, made in Windsor Canada. That in its self is odd too, made in Canada is ok with me, because the parts are made here, and assemblied in Canada.
I too am enjoying the SS and retirement that I get. Too darn bad the jerks who were trusted to assure the money paid in was kept there instead of loaning it back to other givernment agencies. It's medicare that will be broke by 2017 and by 2040 SS will be broke unless this is not fixed.
Farout
My folks did that until they could no longer afford to do it. After a Vega, a Nova, a k-car and a Caravan, they now have a Toyota and an Infiniti (Neither has been back to the dealer for an unscheduled maintenance visit), and the Toyota is a '97.
When I bought my first car, it was a used Mitsubishi, because the domestic offerings in that price range were not competitive (early90s). That vehicle was replaced by a used Ford Contour, which equipped with the little V6 and a manual transmission, was a great ride. I did get my monies worth from the extended warranty. That vehicle got replaced by a Subaru (which was owned partially by GM at the time) because, as you said, it best met our needs. I tried to buy a Mazda6 for my last vehicle, since Ford has such a big stake in the UAW manufactured, Michigan built vehicle, but there were none equipped to meet my needs. If its not made, I can't buy it.
I too am enjoying the SS and retirement that I get. Too darn bad the jerks who were trusted to assure the money paid in was kept there instead of loaning it back to other givernment agencies.
I am happy that you get to enjoy the fruits of my labor, as a younger working American, I will have no chance to enjoy the money being taken from me and my family to support your retirement.
You can thank Congress for the mess in SS. The Bush plan to have private accounts for each of US was a good idea. Congress and the Dems do not want you to have control of your money. They know better how to spend it.
I have bought GM trucks up until now. I did buy a Sequoia that is mostly made in USA. More so than my trucks and Suburban that were built in Canada and Mexico.
Riiiight. Except we already have that, its called a 401k or an IRA, and since everyone seems to know exactly what they are doing with that, we might as well turn them loose with this too.
Not sure of your position. I know my 401k is still twice what the company and I invested since 1999. This is probably better discussed on the Politics thread.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f146c1e/1957
At my age it's all taxed at ordinary income levels with specific annual withdrawals..
Back in the mid-80s I got banged on one occasion, however, economic times were dire and I got caught...However not always was the case..
As I said, the paper trail works on the feds side..
The 80s started the changeover when we opened the doors to the poor Asian companies who attached tariffs to our exports so as to protect their industrail base while our good politicans exiting office served as consultants pocketing mega-bucks to assist in the makeover of the automotive landscape.
The Asians started with a clean sheet of paper, while our industry was structured in a way that provided a darn good living for thousands of people along with some old habits not so good..We have watched our industry bleed and the Asians grow, with many folks quite happy to see our industry fail..applauding the newcomers as brilliant...
The Asians build some great cars with tight control on costs and have not been exposed to the high costs of labor, retirement and health benefits along with the costs of restructuring, plant closings, and layoffs..
Most Asian car guys were nationalized to some extent and their only hope back in the 80s was to invade the states..The Japanese auto industry was going through layoffs...
At my stage in life, growing our industrial base is in the hands of the younger generations, for I lived through the best of times and it was a blast!!!!!! You will find it hard to have it both ways in the future.. too many laws and freedom restrictions and the overall political climate of growth restriction..You will be fine-tuned and molded by Washington..
Now the Dodge Caliber that replaced the Neon is a JOKE!!!! You are lucky to achive 28 with the 1.8 & CVT. The Caliber weight is by far almost 800 lbs heaver and is made mainly of cheap plastic, fit and finish are poor by any standard. DCX was a horrid union and glad Chrysler LLC is now free of the German cheap skates!
However there are many foriegn companies now assembling their vehicles here!
So I don't buy American Companies make lousy cars! Americans have bought into the lie that Korean, European, and even vehicles with parts from China are better. Just read Comsumer Reports, they are so biased against American Vehicles it's a crime on how they have so twisted the public. Try to get a head gasket for any European vehicle, and hold on to your wallet!
The Neon was a inexpensive car, so is an Aveo, Kia, and Hyndia, etc. You get what you pay for. We have a 07 Chrysler Pacifica AWD Touring. Could not ask for a better made vehicle! 25 mpg and plenty of room, quality car.
farout
The foreign cars from Europe really started in the mid 50's and by 63 VW was a household name. Toyota was brought in in the early 60's. Most foreign vehicles were about $1500. to $2700. While a Chevy 2 with a V-8 and air ran $2800. in 1964. Most cars were financed for no more than 24 months in the early 60's.
I drove VW bugs for work and I drove 150 miles a day to and from. When the VW got or 35,000 miles I traded it in. The mpg was 26 to 30 just depending on how I drove.
I am of the opinion that the cheapest car made, and allowed in the US is by far better than most of the vehicles made in the period from 1950 to 1985. Just based on safety alone the new vehicles are so much better, and the new vehicles today last much longer.
However I do favor American made vehicles over any foreign made vehicle. I have bought American made vehicles ( I include North America as Americian) for the last 30 years. My last foreign vehicle was a1978 Datsun pick up. A rust bucket, that ate electrical alternators up every 6000 miles. The body was so thin, paint was fading in less than 8 months. That was the last foreign made vehicles for me.
Frankly the older I get the more I wonder why we spent so much in helping the countries we were at war with, and rebuilt the countries. Never have any repaid the money we Americans paid to help those war torn countries. Now we have become so in debt to Japan, Europe, and Korea, and sadly we will become totally financially slaved to China. Americans have killed the Americian Car Companies, and we are becoming a nation of importing everything, becoming a debtor to everyone who exports to us.
farout
What?
:sick:
Sure they have. The Japanese, Toyota, Nissan, Mazda, Honda, etc. have all built plants in the USA and employ thousands in the depressed South. Now where would those people be without jobs from the Japanese? Also the Koreans are the next wave followed by the Chinese. I'm sure all of them will offer jobs to Americans to repay any debt incurred while rebuilding their war torn countries.
In fact some say the war isn't really over since the owners of Toyota and Honda companies that existed during WWII and built equipement for the Japanese armies have in fact fought the war silently using economics as their ultimate weapon.
So in fact, by buying cars whose headquarters are in Japan in fact are aiding these companies in their silent war against the USA.
How's that for an analogy?
BTW I paid $2750 for a 1964 Galaxie 500 XL brand new and $6700 for a brand new 1976 Cutlass Supreme. The 1974 Celica was really a steal at $4300 including 5sp and an AM/FM radio.
I don't know, by the 70s in places outside the midwest, the show was drawing to a close. My neighborhood growing up was full of Datsun 510s (a great sport-compact in the vein of the BMW 2002), VW Rabbits (especially diesels, something the domestic manufacturers still haven't mastered), and Toyota Corolla/Coronas. Sure there were Impalas and LTDs, but with gas what it was then, they sat more and got driven less.
I think the early 80s are what really did the domestics in. The GM X-body and Chrysler K-cars were pretty sorry. What redeemed them were vehicles like the original Caravan and the Taurus (even if the body was pretty much an Audi 5000 rip off). By then, there was writing on the wall though, and the domestics did nothing to actively regain the public trust.
GM lacked innovation, Chrysler lacked integrity and Ford lacked quality. This was in the late 80s early 90s. Now, battered and bruised, GM has had 2 years of strong innovation developing things like the Volt as well as other drivetrain innovations and styling like the CTS (what a car). Ford has quality at or near the very top rated by a number of outside sources, and is concentrating on hitting the market a bit better as the SUV fad draws to a close.
I think my generation grew up with Hondas coming from Ohio and Toyotas from Kentucky, while Fords come from Hermosillo. Toyota's main technical center is 45 minutes from Ford's. Lincoln's design studio is about the same distance from Toyota's as well out west.
I don't know how to fix the problem, or even if it is a problem, but there is a big difference between how my grandparents generation grew up (and my parents for that matter) and mine.
I really didn't like any of the domestic small cars either. My grandmother traded her excellent 1964 Chevrolet Biscayne for a new 1973 Chevrolet Vega. Even to my 8 year-old eyes, I could tell this was an inferior car with horrible fit and finish and materials. Many were the times I remember Grandmom going to the Chevrolet dealer for one thing or another. My aunt bought a new 1972 Ford Pinto when she graduated from nursing school. I remember that car being very uncomfortable and cramped for even a child!
The quality of American cars vs. overseas competition deteriorated as the technologies merged. In other words, when the playing field became level, the Toyota production and improvement concept of 'Kaizen' was juuust a bit more conducive to excellence than is the American labor union template of 'lowest common denominator' and 'don't rock the boat'..
Now, as perception has become reality, the astounding initial depreciation rate of American cars makes buying a new one a REAL patriotic statement: "American badging is more important than food for my family!" Wow! You go, man!
But like I said, that is changing. Ford quality is in the top tier, GM is making innovative stuff, there is less money on the hood of both, limiting fleet sales has stabilized resale values, etc. I am excited to see the turn around plans taking hold and actually doing something. I also like that Ford and GM are benchmarking competition and figuring out where to spend money. I have a lot of hope for the future of these companies in America (since they are both doing fine in other parts of the world).
I really don't know what to make of Chrysler yet. I think they are trying to figure out what they want to be, and I hope they figure it out fast.
Now to the bright side of my day, filled up at my favorite gas pump, Shell V-Power, my average gas mileage on the dash readout was 21.5mpg, however it only took 9.844 gals for 277 miles=28.14mpg..Should have been around 14gals for around 20mpgs..My 260hpSC V-6 is right on the cutting edge..This is 90% city driving..
Obviously, some of the Big 3 cars of yore were not too great and I agree on the Pinto, Vega, Falcon, and the K car.. Plus many more. I didn't get involved with the junkies so, really no complaints..Out of my 43 cars owned, Chrysler was limited to 3 autos, lots of Fords, but mainly GM plus 2 Porsches..Almost had a Bug in Germany, ordered one at the same time I ordered my first Porsche, however the Porsche came in first and I sold the VW contract-there was a six month wait for VWs in 1958 in Germany..
Have a nice day..
I never had the dubious honor of riding around in a Falcon or Vega, but we did have both a K-car and a Pinto at the same time when I was a kid. :sick: That, plus having a Citation for my first car pretty much inculcated an unconquerable prejudice against domestic cars, while my experience with small Japanese cars and trucks was the exact opposite.
That's pretty impressive. My wife has an 07 3800 n/a v6 in her -07 Grand Prix company car that has never gotten over 25mpg over a tank of fuel. I'd say her driving is a 50/50mix hwy/city. It usually avgs. around 23mpg.
One thing I notice with her car vs. other 3800 powered GM cars i've driven is it doesn't up shift as quick. Under moderate acceleration it will often run over 3000 rpm before upshifting unless you really accelerate slowly and it doesn't take a lot of pedal to run over 4000rpm before shifting. It's also very willing to downshift. Usually 1/2 throttle will result in down shifting to a lower gear. Completely different than most GM vehicles I've driven. I believe the '07s have throttle by wire and it seems the throttle is tuned to provide most of the throttle in the first have of pedal travel. My Suburban often needs to be nearly floored to down shift, particularly at hwy speeds when it o/d, which may help economy, but it is annoying.
The list of horrible small domestic cars is long. I remember a Corsica I rented was god awful, along with some Cavaliers I've driven along with a friend's Pontiac T1000, i.e. Chevette. The ultimate POS that was so slow I'd say that it was borderline dangerous. Had another friend who's mom had a Cimaron that was nearly as bad, but probably worse since it had a Cadillac emblem on the hood.
I haven't driven the latest crop of domestic small cars, but I had an '86 Ford Escort in HS that survived my beating for a 100k minus two clutches (hey I was in HS) and I had an '89 Mercury Tracer (Basically a Mazda 323) that got me through college and was a good economical small car that was actually a tad bit fun to drive.
I grew up as a die hard Ford guy and remember the first Honda I drove and was blown away by. An '87 Honda CRX SI, I couldn't believe how powerful and smooth a 4cyl could be. The car was a blast to drive, quick, and fuel efficient. Sure it was the size a shoe box, but was perfect for someone who didn't need a rear seat.
The thread that was removed didn't touch on cars - war debt and the Middle East didn't really fit in with the topic here.
I bet that '58 Bug would be worth about as much as the Porsche today.
My experience is just the opposite. I had a 1964 Toyota Land Cruiser that was in the shop more than on the road for the 50k miles I owned it. I had a 1976 Datsun PU that would not start in the winter and rusted out in 4 years. A 1979 Honda Accord that was worthless.
My 1974 Dodge van gave me great service for 107k miles. I loved my 1984 full sized Bronco. I rented Ford Thunderbirds from Hertz for about 20 weeks a year through the mid 1980s, all great cars that would get me 30 MPG on the highway. My 1988, 1990. 1993 and 1998 GM PU trucks and Suburban were all great vehicles.