Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

lemko

Wow, that's one way to look at a lack of IRS. Reminds me of something Mikhail Kalashnikov once said, "The best is the enemy of good enough." Mikhail Kalashnikov is the guy who created the AK-47, one of the world's most reliable and reknowned rifles. The AK-47 was built with loose tolerances and is reliable in adverse conditions. You could throw a handful of sand in the breech and it'll still fire whereas an M-16 would need to be stripped down and cleaned.

Back to IRS, I bet if it was pointed out and proclaimed in advertising that most Average Joes would know the difference. My brother has a Jeep Cherokee Sport he purchased new. Unlike the millions of soccer mommies and their whipped husbands, my brother actually takes his SUV offroad. He tells me the solid axle is preferable to IRS in offroad situations.

I got the word! I have bought many new domestic cars over the last 20 years starting with a 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic. I followed it up with a 1989 Cadillac Brougham, a 1994 Cadillac DeVille, a 2002 Cadillac Seville STS, and a 2007 Cadillac DTS Performance. I also had plenty of used domestic cars.

bumpy

He tells me the solid axle is preferable to IRS in offroad situations.

Yeah, for hardcore offroad stuff (rockcrawling, etc.) the solid axle "holds" the pumpkin high enough to keep it from hanging up on uneven surfaces, where an IRS setup would keep it too close to the ground for comfort. Even then, some of the rock guys will shave the bottom of the pumpkin for extra clearance. Holden puts an IRS under their Commodore-based pickups, but the 1-ton versions get a live axle.

Even on these mythical glass-smooth, arrow-straight roads, IRS is better because the axles are much closer to being equal-length which minimizes the torque steer.

grbeck

cooterbfd: As far as leasing (Europes), I see ad's all day long for Accords for $108/mon. for 42 months, w/20% down. I'm sure that can get people in and keep them in.

All car companies advertise leases. The key is how many customers lease versus how many buy. European companies depend heavily on leases to survive, and a big reason is because people don't want to keep the vehicle past the expiration of the warranty. The Japanese aren't nearly as dependant on leasing.

grbeck

lilengineerboy: The Civic SI is kind of a niche model although I understand your desire for sportiness. That is about a 20k vehicle. You could get a pretty wired up Astra which would compete with the LX or EX, but I can't think of anything from Ford or GM that competes with the Civic SI.

GM and Ford actually had two good vehicles to compete with the Civic Si - the Cobalt SS (the supercharged one) and Focus SVT, but they didn't keep developing them. The Focus SVT, in particular, showed a lot of promise. The Civic Si burnishes the rest of the Civic lineup; the Focus SVT would be doing the same thing for garden-variety Focuses if Ford had kept it in production and refined it.

lilengineerboy: The Accord V6 6 speed sedan is gone. If you count the coupe, the same money would have gotten you a Pontiac GTO. Comparing the sedan to the sedan, a Saab 9-3, 9-5 or Pontiac G8 (rwd and a big V8) would also be in that range. Or a Mustang. Or a 300C or Dodge Challenger.

The GTO was in the mid-30s (and many dealers were holding out for full sticker, even when the cars weren't selling). That was considerably more expensive than the Accord coupe with the V-6 and the six speed available during the same time frame (last-generation Accord).

The 300C is also in the mid-30s, while the Accord coupe with the V-6 and six speed tops out at about $30,000. There may be more discounts on the 300C, because the bloom is apparently off the Hemi rose, with gas over $3 a gallon.

grbeck

lilengineerboy: And it applies to Honda as well. My Accord EX was $4500 under msrp and a couple thousand under invoice. Its a perfectly acceptable vehicle, although just as bland and indistinguishable as anything else out there. If you make a commodity product, you get commodity rates.

Very few vehicles go for full sticker anymore, because, to differing degrees, all manufacturers produce more than the market demands, and expect the dealers to move the extra metal. Manufacturers have different ways of dealing with this - direct-to-customer rebates, dealer incentives, or special lease deals. In extreme cases, a large percentage of excess production is dumped on Hertz and Alamo. I wouldn't even pay full sticker for a Benz anymore. In this day and age, about the only cars that aren't discounted in some way are the exotics - Ferrari, Maserati, Aston Martin.

A vehicle isn't a commodity when potential buyers know what it stands for and actively seek it out, both on the new- and used-car markets. The Accord is not a commodity, just as the BMW 3-Series, Corvette, Mustang and Jeep Wrangler are not commodity vehicles. There are people who search for Accords, and don't want something else.

bumpy

In this day and age, about the only cars that aren't discounted in some way are the exotics - Ferrari, Maserati, Aston Martin.

And the smart fortwo, but that's an exotic of a different sort.

motorcity6

A lowly Jack Rousch Ford won the race---in fact his car has won the last two races.

The Toyota camp is not a happy bunch, they have invested many "yen" hoping to flatten the Detroit image..It will happen but I certainly enjoyed the race results when I opened the sports page this morn..

There was some "kamikaze" in the racing div. after the race ended, for they take this hosing very,very seriously. Corporate downgraded some personnel files.. I remember what happened during my Battle Creek, Mich days with that lovely Japanese company. They hold one accountable for a bad day..No, I didn't get scarred, but the chief engineer did...

Golf carts may be our future transportation on the Interstates---recharge every 10 miles-----wonder how they work in snow???????

Love the Detroit Iron...

bumpy

I thought it was particularly hilarious that the starter told the drivers to start their UAW engines. Nascar is a nonunion operation from stem to stern, the Impala and Charger are CAW-built, the Fusion hails from Mexico (no UAW there), and despite its strenuous efforts the UAW has never gotten its hands on the Camry.

lilengineerboy

GM and Ford actually had two good vehicles to compete with the Civic Si - the Cobalt SS (the supercharged one) and Focus SVT, but they didn't keep developing them. The Focus SVT, in particular, showed a lot of promise. The Civic Si burnishes the rest of the Civic lineup; the Focus SVT would be doing the same thing for garden-variety Focuses if Ford had kept it in production and refined it.

Yeah, I felt the Focus SVT was a reasonable shot, even with a 20-30 hp deficit. I give it bonus points for coming as a 5 door as well. I also agree with your thoughts on a halo model for the trim level. Instead, they not only killed the SVT, but also the ST and gave us a porky 2dr that understands what music you like.
The Cobalt felt too low rent to take seriously (I have a similar complaint about the EVO, but it doesn't take it as far). I think the SRT4 offered a lot of performance per dollar.

The GTO was in the mid-30s (and many dealers were holding out for full sticker, even when the cars weren't selling). That was considerably more expensive than the Accord coupe with the V-6 and the six speed available during the same time frame (last-generation Accord).

I was seeing low 30s for the 6 speed Accords loaded up. A Hemi Charger was in the 20s, IIRC. I do like the G8 styling (if not the interior) and the performance for 28k. Ford is the only entry missing (unless you want a Crown Vic).

lilengineerboy

A vehicle isn't a commodity when potential buyers know what it stands for and actively seek it out, both on the new- and used-car markets. The Accord is not a commodity, just as the BMW 3-Series, Corvette, Mustang and Jeep Wrangler are not commodity vehicles. There are people who search for Accords, and don't want something else.

That also gets into perception. I would say there is nothing outstanding about the fit, finish, trim, or features of my '07 Accord. The radio is 5 years behind in features, the dashboard trim is sub-par, and the driving experience is a bit floaty. It does have a good drivetrain (good balance of power/economy) and the rear seat is good at holding an infant seat. I can't comment on resale value yet, but we will most likely see in the spring.
If folks will seek it out, that would be great. I have one to be sought.

xrunner2

I thought it was particularly hilarious that the starter told the drivers to start their UAW engines.

NASCAR fans should be given truth in advertising. Each Ford, Dodge, Chevy or Toyota car should have truth in labeling showing what percent of content of these race cars is produced in a Ford, Chrysler, GM or Toyota plant. Would it surprise anyone that the percent is zero. Maybe Congress needs to get involved whereby they make a law that says that a NASCAR car label, whether Chevy, Dodge, etc on a race car must have X percent of parts out of factory inventory of that brand. This would be good use of Congress time in that they would have less time to raise our taxes. Congress already monkeys around with baseball.

So, what does it mean to have Chevy label and look-alike grille on NASCAR racers. Does any NASCAR fan actually buy a brand because a race car with that brand on the car won a race on Sunday? Do they buy a Chevy at end of calendar year because a Chevy branded car won the Cup that year?

xrunner2

That also gets into perception. I would say there is nothing outstanding about the fit, finish, trim, or features of my '07 Accord.

Knowing that Accord is built in Ohio, does that make it an "American"car or is it a Japanese car built in Ohio?

dvsutton

No question that it is a Japanese car built with Japanese parts, ASSEMBLED in Ohio. I personally know of the lack of quality from Honda. My wifes Honda Odyssey has had its transmission rebuilt, rotors replaced multiple times, sliding door fell off its track onto my sons foot. Dash rattles like a pinball machine. Starting problems. Seat heaters replaced. All in less that 25k miles. Honda can take its cars and reputation and shove it.

motorcity6

the 16,000,000 vehicles sold in the USA had been produced by the" Big 3", the country would be rolling in the dough..Since only about half of the sales came from the Detroit side ----our country is bleeding..

Wonder why????? The Asian and European countries are living high on the hog..

How's your CARBON FOOTPRINT?????? another joke from the LEFT SIDE!!!

bumpy

Yeah, it's a shame that all the workers and suppliers for non-Big 1.7 automakers work without pay. (Edmunds really needs a "rolls eyes" icon.)

lemko

Forget just the 16M cars. Imagine if you walked into a Wal~Mart or a Home Depot and everything sold there was still made in the U.S.A. NOBODY who wanted to work would be out of a job!

I listen to very little the lefties have to say. They're wealthy enough to pay $8 for a bar of soap at Whole Foods and can't understand what it's like to be the average Joe who has to work two jobs just to shop at the Acme. Funny, a lot of these lefty liberals owe their fine standard of living to the WWII generation - people whose values are often diametrically opposed to their own. Spoiled brats! The boomers left the world in a far worse condition for my generation. Thanks a lot, Lola Granola!

marsha7

Always remember that the sole reason that the Big 3 are in the shape they are in now is that they literally abused us, took us for granted, and sold us junk for over two decades...one could argue we didn't leave them, they pushed us away by making and selling inferior products...blame management, blame unions, they sold us junk...

And, for those who disagree, it doesn't matter how good you think you Big 3 cars were in the 70s, 80s, and 90s...more of us felt we bought junk, and it is those who left who may never come back...the Big 3 has a 50% market share because of those who believed their cars back then were good, and more power to you...but the other 50% are imports, and that is where your argument falls short, for it is THEY who will never come back, regardless of how much you liked your 1975 Vega...

It is sad to watch companies take the "I don't give a damn" attitude and then they wonder where all their "loyal" customers went...they went where they felt there was quality and maybe someone who cared about their product, for it is few people who actually believe that UAW people care about their product, all they seem to care about is striking...and they wonder where the jobs went...sheesh...

bumpy

If everything at Wal-Mart was made in the US, that bar of soap would cost $8 there too, unless you're willing to work in the soap factory for 50 cents an hour.

lemko

...soap and other HBA products are still made here, even the stuff sold at Wal~Mart. I just hope they aren't selling Chinese soap and then wondering why all their customers are dying of skin cancer 10 years later.

What makes one think decent U.S. employment and runaway inflation work hand-in-hand? I think I'd rather all those unemployed and underemployed people be working at decent-paying jobs and contributing to society rather than being a drain on taxpayers via social services, prisons, and crime.

bumpy

What makes one think decent U.S. employment and runaway inflation work hand-in-hand?

Escalating wage demands. People ask for and get more money (thanks to political pressure), then the cost of what they make rises, and people ask for more money to maintain their standard of living, etc.

wtd44

Actually, there's nothing "personal" about the open marketplace. The Big 3 have not "abused" the customer. Rather, the customer has shopped around, and decided to buy a blend of products-- some Big 3, some not, some domestic, some not. On the whole, automobile companies can be a maddening bunch, but I don't think "abuse" is the term to use. Poor customer relations do abound... :sick:

lemko

...precludes one from buying a certain brand of car, then Toyota should be out of business for the way it treats customers during the sales experience and VW should be gone due to its discourteous parts and service performance.

cooterbfd

Escalating wage demands. People ask for and get more money (thanks to political pressure), then the cost of what they make rises, and people ask for more money to maintain their standard of living, etc.

Ok, on paper (or in a blog) what's wrong with MAINTAINING a standard of living????

lilengineerboy

...soap and other HBA products are still made here, even the stuff sold at Wal~Mart. I just hope they aren't selling Chinese soap and then wondering why all their customers are dying of skin cancer 10 years later.

Unilever, a European company, is the largest soap producer. The have far east factories. Ivory, from good ole P&G, is still made in Cincinnati, I believe.

marsha7

99 and 44/100ths percent pure.....................and, it floats...

wtd44...maybe abuse is a poor choice of words, but as the general quality went down, and, coincidentally, the competition seemed to be better, it was the perfect storm (never used that term until the movie) for the downfall of the Big 3...

Maybe downfall is a bad term, but they have lost market share, shrunk in size, and, IMO, been humbled by those who made better cars...they simply do NOT dominate like they used to...

make no mistake, they are still large companies...doesn't GM sell over 200 Billion $$$ worth of cars each year, and it was a major landmark years ago when they sold $100 Billion...

A billion here, a billion there, next thing you know you have lunch money...

wtd44

Right on, lemko! One reason I steer away from offshore brand names has much to do with human relations. Of course, there are those exceptions.

mcdawgg

"then Toyota should be out of business for the way it treats customers during the sales experience "

You do realize that Toyota does not own the dealerships, right? Personally, I have had great sales experiences with Toyota dealers.

lemko

My experience with Toyota is that they have this expectation you're going to buy a car from them and you're going to do it NOW! They also act like they're doing you a favor selling you the car rather than you as the customer doing them a favor buying it. It was like swimming with sharks while wearing a meat suit. Thought it might've just been that particular dealership, but I encountered it elsewhere to varying degrees. One of the more laid-back places ironically was an Acura dealer. My friend buys Hondas and he says they've got a bit of an attitude too.

fezo

"A billion here, a billion there, next thing you know you have lunch money..."

Wow. Almost an Everett Dirksen quote! We're moving up in class here.

While I agree that Toyota doesn't own the dealerships (a real stretch agreeing with facts that are irrefutable) I will say that my experience with Toyota dealers has been less than pleasant for the most part. That said, here in NJ there are a very limited number of any sort of dealerships that are much fun to deal with.

british_rover

Oh you beat me too it but I think explanations of global trade fall on death ears to most protectionists.

bumpy

In theory, there's nothing wrong with it. In practice, you have to convince someone else to compensate your marginal transactional losses, and if you want to improve your standard of living, then you have to convince that someone else to give you even more money. I wonder if there's a theory of fiscal entropy?

marsha7

That IS an Everett Dirkson quote, with a little bit of my editorial liberty...

fezo

Your liberty is why I said almost. Talk about a guy I miss. He was great to listen to.

wtd44

Dirkson is now at a much higher state of entropy than we, the Worldly! :surprise:

marsha7

my chemistry, entropy is defined as randomness, as in the natural tendency of molecules to spread "out" rather than concentrate "in"...kinda like if you drop a few drops of blue dye in a glass of water, the dye will naturally diffuse thruout the water, rather than concentrate itself...

hudsonthedog

Imagine if you walked into a Wal~Mart or a Home Depot and everything sold there was still made in the U.S.A. NOBODY who wanted to work would be out of a job!

I love how all of the world's troubles are the fault of "lefties." I believe my self to be left-leaning and I definitely don't see it that way...it's not from my personal beliefs but from my Economics degree.

Let's imagine if Wal-mart and Home Depot sold nothing but US-made products for a moment. Assuming that they were both as large as they are now (which they wouldn't be), how much do you think they'd charge for even the most basic things? And do you really think they'd be able to pay more than their basic wage to their workers just because everything in the store was more expensive? It doesn't work that way.

I buy American when I can. But MY need to eat and clothe myself and keep a roof over my head keeps me from maintaining a 100% US-made home. I'm very happy that the WWII generation did all they could to lift my standard of living but 30 years of political retardedness (from the left and right sides of the spectrum) and 50 years of short-term business choices from various industries (cars among them) have helped ensure that I can't afford American-made clothes.

Lola Granola had nothing to do with it.

cooterbfd

.....and 50 years of short-term business choices from various industries (cars among them) have helped ensure that I can't afford American-made clothes.

Not necessarily:
http://www.allamericanclothing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code- =AAC&Product_Code=AATP

By no means expensive. Even the jeans aren't exactly overly expensive.

cooterbfd

Hudson, I think the biggest problem we have with American manufacturing is these businesses are caught up in the "greed" mentality, in where they are worried not about what we can afford, or who does or doesn't lose their jobs, or where things come from, but how does it affect "MY PERSONAL BOTTOM LINE". This may cause CEO's and owners of other companies who may want to do the right thing to ship their work overseas, just to remain competitive (here's one who over the years TRIED to do the right thing. Look how this ended up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malden_Mills).

Individually, we see evidence of this greed causing prices of oil, gold, and silver spiking to highs we haven't seen since 1980 by speculators.

In the last 5 years, how many people have bought a house (we'll say for $200k for argument's sake) invested another say $20k for a new boiler, fixtures, paint, etc. and then flipped it for $325k, 6 months later, all w/o living a day in it. Chances are, SOMEBODY would've bought it for $200k, spent the money to fix it up, and actually LIVED in it for 10 or 20 years (wow, what a novel concept).

Personally, I think we have to stop this "global economy" thing for a minute, Think of America, first, the American people second, and the American Businesses third, stabilize our jittery economy, and THEN worry about where we fit in globally.

lemko

Geeze, I'm surprised shows like "Flip This House" are still on television these days. It seems almost tasteless to have a show like this when so many are losing their homes in this mortgage meltdown. I'm glad I got my place before all that nonsense started. I couldn't afford my own house had I waited another year or two. I also refuse to use my home as a giant ATM machine.

cooterbfd

I also refuse to use my home as a giant ATM machine.

I think this is one reason why, as jittery as it is, the economy keeps trudging along. Heard on the radio that for the first time in 63 years, BANKS have more equity in our houses than WE DO!!!!

lilengineerboy

I think the biggest problem we have with American manufacturing is these businesses are caught up in the "greed" mentality, in where they are worried not about what we can afford, or who does or doesn't lose their jobs, or where things come from, but how does it affect "MY PERSONAL BOTTOM LINE".

Oh man, corporations want to earn profits for shareholders? Oohh noes stop the presses. That darn blasted capitalism. Maybe thats the issue, companies shouldn't be about making anything, being efficient or productive, they should just be about paychecks and employment. Hmm that sounds a lot like the federal government already.

cooterbfd

Do you think the CEO cares about the shareholders?? Only as far as it relates to HIS(or HER) shares, first, and second as long as shareholders keep off their backs.

lilengineerboy

Do you think the CEO cares about the shareholders?? Only as far as it relates to HIS(or HER) shares, first, and second as long as shareholders keep off their backs.

Do you care about your job? Do you care about making your bosses happy? That is how jobs work, his bosses are shareholders...he keeps them happy. Besides, its not like the CEOs have enough stock in a multinational corporation to make much of a difference.

alltorque

Do you think the CEO cares about the shareholders?? Only as far as it relates to HIS(or HER) shares, first, and second as long as shareholders keep off their backs.

Some truth in this, whichever country you're in or whatever industry you look at. CEO's care about share price. Company x makes £300 million profit in 2006. Good. In 2007 they "only" make £250 million. Bad - the guys on Wall Street, The City, Hang Seng or wherever promptly start offloading shares for poor performance. It's not about making anything, service or employing folks, (and thereby supporting the economy), it's about constantly increasing profits to satisfy the investors. Sad and ultimately unhealthy IMO.

fintail

The constant focus on short term profits vs longterm sustainability is what has created the mess seen in most of the first world today.

marsha7

In one sense, you are right...we are so concerned with this quarter's results so the CEO is concerned with the same thing...a better run company should be concerned with overall growth and profitability over the long term...a good exmaple of that, now, may be Ford, who really cannot worry about just a quarter, but needs to look at the mid-to-long term for overall survival...

fintail

Some companies have been able to look at the longterm - like those pesky car companies from the land of the rising sun. As I see each of their model names get (arguably, but in many ways) better with each new generation, I know there is a difference in thought. And when I see the model name decay in domestic makes that existed long before I was born, I know a defective mindset is in residence.

Those who look at things only from quarter to quarter are doomed to fail. The boom and bust economy we've lived with for so long is heading for a huge bust, I fear.

motorcity6

Follow the money---follow the next election---maybe the Boom will be a Public Works Program....Personally I adore the capitalist system---companies making money keeps the country rolling----yes, there are winners and losers.. Love the stock market----again, winners and losers...Been there,done both.

On 3/10, I posted a message which ran the political gamut and the site watchers removed the posting, not surprised, not upset, however our current upheaval in the financial markets and our dwindling manufacturing base is a direct result of our Washington D.C. patrons which we all elected. I am right-winged. End of my political postings, after all this an auto-discussion site..

Took the 06 GPGT in for a frt wheel balance--load force method-and found out one of the wheels had inside rim damage causing less than a perfect readout. OK, give me new wheel---$721.00 for a regular OEM factory replacement wheel. The transaction stopped!!!! This is a 17" five spoke polished alum wheel-std Pontiac GPGT equip..One can buy the 17" six spoke polished alum from the Pontiac accessory site for $321ea, of course you have to or should buy a set of four.

The bright side is that the damaged wheel balanced doesn't show any signs of vibration through the steering wheel. Will ponder the situation--maybe get the six-spoke setup when I replace the original tires which are not too swift on the wearing end..They are the OEM Michelin filled with nitrogen-34# cold..Both the Caddy and Pontiac dealers do the nitro-stuff..I really doubt if the nitro air is worth the money and the effort, another gimmick to extract money at the dealer level. Life is full of choices.

Toyota took 1st and 2nd in the Nascar race over the weekend, the Ford,Chevy, and Dodge boys are going to have to hone up their cars along with their driving skills to put the Asians in the back of the pack...

Well, must go to beach here in Venice and get in my daily walk of sand and water and then stop at Starbucks for a cup of energy..

Keep on motoring and be sure to consider buying a home-grown American car when the time comes to make your selection..You can make a difference..

bumpy

Keep on motoring and be sure to consider buying a home-grown American car when the time comes to make your selection..You can make a difference..

Naah, they're too heavy. :sick:

lilengineerboy

Took the 06 GPGT in for a frt wheel balance--load force method-and found out one of the wheels had inside rim damage causing less than a perfect readout. OK, give me new wheel---$721.00 for a regular OEM factory replacement wheel

You might want to look into having the wheel repaired. Typically that runs less than $200. I have had good luck with that type of service. Alternatively, you can search for a used wheel that will probably match the condition of the other wheels on the car. I would think that should run less than $200 as well. You might even be able to find one on eBay.