But should you happen to note a knock, you simply stop using the lower octane straight, and titrate yourself a blend between high octane and low. That is, make your own. This solution is only for people like me who enjoy "finding a way" when "intractable" problems arise.
Much of the American media has lost its mind over foreign cars, to the point that they have encouraged those looking for new cars to avoid the home grown product at all costs, never mind that as far as quality, performance and bang for the buck the American cars are as good as any. The only time the media is shocked int reaity ius when a strike of American auo makers is imminent; otherwise they are slow to recognize our home grown products. Don't forget the jobs that will go down the drain if we don't start respecting and buying our own.
I do sympathise with the sentimernts but there are a couple of points that I think you make more out of patriotism than reality. My opinion of the American cars I've hired/driven over the past 5 years, (visit USA at least once per year; 2007 was 4 weeks in Nevada/Arizona/Texas), is that your bangs-per-buck statement is spot on. Quality ? No way is it up with the Europeans and Japanese, at least in terms of materials and fit/finish. Performance ? I don't think so when you look at overall dynamics. Blaming the media for a decline in the public's willingness to part with their Dollars is clutching at straws. We did the same in the U.K. - then realised that the Germans, Japanese, Swedes actually were building better cars. The public will make up their own minds and once they are exposed to superior products they buy them............and the imminent(ish) arrival of the excellent German and Japanese diesels isn't going to make life for the American manufacturers any easier, I'm afraid.
Britain now builds some very fine cars - Rolls Royce, Bentley, Nissan, Toyota and the reason is that none of them are in the hands of British management. The workforce are the same blokes but those directing their efforts are far better than of old. Perhaps a similar formula could help turn around the American car industry ?
Ah, but hold on. My original statements are flawed. Our best friends in Texas both drive American cars and they are excellent in every respect. Unfortunately they both wear Honda badges - but they were built in the USA, just not actually "American" cars as I think you would define them. Perhaps the "Dump the management - keep the workforce" formula we saw in U.K. is already working for USA. Just need to redefine "American", perhaps ? Interesting thought.
Quality ? No way is it up with the Europeans and Japanese, at least in terms of materials and fit/finish. Performance ? I don't think so when you look at overall dynamics. Blaming the media for a decline in the public's willingness to part with their Dollars is clutching at straws.
I haven't had that experience. So far, the # of breakdowns in the first 100k leader for my family is a '93 Accord. The second is a '83 Reliant that had a Mitsubishi engine. My new Accord has mismatched dash panels and poor color matching. The '96 Contour it replaced was used competitively and had only racing related mechanical repairs (brakes, wheel bearings, tires) in its 150k. At just over 100k, it had its parking brake cable and butterfly controller motor replaced. I don't think I could be more happy with that car.
We did the same in the U.K. - then realised that the Germans, Japanese, Swedes actually were building better cars.
Except the European (German currently, British cars went away after the miserable failure of the Sterling...how do you screw up a Honda?) brands are typically at the bottom of every measure of reliability tracked in the US. The Sweedes are both owned by American companies.
100% agree and many of the naysayers haven't looked at a american car lately to actually do a comparo. Do a comparo of a 08' Malibu vs. Camcord, and try to say the Malibu, isn't as good......
Can't comment on your experiences but accept what you're saying. Our Texan friends experience of Honda is 100% reliability, (and the're both on their 2nd Honda's).
Ah, The Rover Sterling. Yes, it did take a real talent to screw up a Honda, but they managed it. However, I do have a friend who is still running his Rover 820i he bought at 6 months old. It just goes on and doesn't breakdown; but the rot is starting to show quite badly now. There's always one.
Yes, Saab and Volvo are both American owned - but not designed or built there. The GM bean counters have not done Saab any favours, though. We don't see enough American cars over here to make real comparisons. The one's we do, PT Cruiser, 300C, Cherokee variants etc are hardly glowing examples of the leading edge of automotive design, or quality. The new Cadillacs might be interesting, (apart from the BLS which is a re-badged old GM-Saab), but again too few around to comment.
A family member's most recernt experience of Americana was mid-December in Florida. Daughter + Partner were there for a holiday. Hired a Mustang V8 convertible for all the right reasons. Both of them said that sitting at rest with the hood down and engine running was all they'd expected. Sun on the face and a lovely V8 rumble. Unfortunately, when they came to drive it the whole illusion was shattered by what they believe is possibly the worst car they have ever driven...................they even sent us a postcard that read simply; "Having a great time. Don't hire a Mustang". Now these folks don't normally drive Rollers etc, they both drive Skoda's but were appalled by the Mustang's quality, or lack of.......and they so wanted to love it.
O.K., I've now slid back the cockpit cover and I'm holding the ejector seat release just witing for the flaming.
No flaming man. I always enjoy your balanced posts. I really like the looks of the latest generation of Mustang. I just would not buy one for all the right reasons. I still bought an American made vehicle for my current ride. It is a Sequoia made in Indiana. It replaced a 2005 GMC hybrid PU that was also made in Indiana. The PU was tinny and the doors did not shut properly. Not near the vehicle the Toyota Sequoia is. Except, the electronics in the GMC were superior to the Toyota. Of course they are all made in China. :sick:
Now these folks don't normally drive Rollers etc, they both drive Skoda's but were appalled by the Mustang's quality, or lack of.......and they so wanted to love it.
Wow, perhaps it had been abused as a rental? I didn't care for the Mustang because I had trouble seeing over the long hood and the rear quarters when maneuvering in tight spaces, but I had no issues at all with the build quality of the vehicle itself.
I am a little concerned as I added a quart of oil so far to the '07 Accord. I hope the clearances are staying in tact on a vehicle with less than 6k. To be fair, I added almost a quart to the Legacy as well, but that vehicle did a lot more work in the last oil change period.
I don't remember the Contour or the '93 Accord using any oil at all (excepting when the front seals went out on the Accord making it dump the entire contents of the oil pan onto the roadway).
...their perception of the Mustang was affected by the car's live axle configuration in lieu of an independent rear suspension? The Mustang's drivetrain is as retro as the car's looks and might feel odd to people who drive more modern machinery.
With all due respect to my Daughter and her partner, I doubt if they'd know a live-axle from a hole in the road and they're not exactly "sporty" drivers, (particularly driving a car in a foreign country from the "wrong" side of the car on the "wrong" side of the road).
Best review I can get is; "It handled like a drunken pig and the materials and general finish were awful. It just felt very cheap and nasty". Not terribly scientific but there you go.
The last car I hired in USA was a Durango XLT for touring Arizona. Thoroughly enjoyed it - in that environment. Would I have one in Europe ? Nope but then I probably wouldn't buy any SUV here anyway. Would I hire another one ? Probably will when we return to Arizona, or wherever, later this year. It's all part of the "experience". Horses for courses, I guess.
The thread about being a debtor nation really didn't connect with buying American cars to readily so let's get back to basics and try again.
Imagine if GM, Chrysler, or Ford were to go out of business, imagine how many Americans would lose their jobs, and think of the large hit our economy would take.... (see the first post for the rest of it).
And if you want a copy of your debtor post, let me know.
lilengineerboy: I didn't care for the Mustang because I had trouble seeing over the long hood and the rear quarters when maneuvering in tight spaces, but I had no issues at all with the build quality of the vehicle itself.
I like the Mustang, but build quality does vary...some are good, but others show some lapses. The interior panels and fit of the rear bumper against the quarter panels are problem areas.
It's like comparing our 2005 Focus to the 1999 Civic that I had. At first glance the Focus looks good, but upon closer inspection (i.e., when washing or waxing the car) the lapses, when compared to the Civic, become apparent.
The only time I've had to add oil to any Honda was my 2001 Prelude, which was known for oil consumption issues. Otherwise, my other Hondas have been bulletproof. My experiences have mirrored those reported in Consumer Reports reliability surveys...interestingly, both of our current cars (2003 Accord EX four cylinder and 2005 Focus SE) have pretty closely tracked the ratings in the magazine's reliability surveys.
The domestics are getting better, but the advantage enjoyed by the best of the Japanese (Honda and Toyota) in supplier relations and the way the manage their plants still gives them a (shrinking) lead. Workmanship has also improved, particularly with the GM vehicles.
The difference is that, say, 15 years ago, the rankings were on the order of "awful, mediocre and good," while today they are more like "good, better and best."
If one went out of business, it would help the other two, because the big problem plaguing the American automobile market is overcapacity. Since there remains a core of buyers who won't consider anything but a domestic vehicle, a fairly large percentage of those who are customers of the failed company would migrate to the other two for their next purchase.
At this point, there just isn't room in the American market for three companies turning out vehicles ranging from "okay" to "very good" with different badges, all largely competing in the middle of the market.
If one of the Big Three exited the automobile business, there would be short-term pain (the workers and communities with plants) for long-term gain (the remaining two companies would be healthier)...
I think that part of the European perception of American cars is that we don't see many of them. The ones we do see tend to be Grand Cherokke's, Grand Voyager's, 300C's, PT Cruisers etc - hardly the cutting edge. Other than that we see some beautiful "Classics" that are treated like babies and are magnificent reminders of what America was building whilst Europe was making some truly appalling mass-produced stuff.
Most of our experiences probably centre around falling off a long flight to Florida etc and picking up a rental whatever which is completely different to our "home" car. It just doesn't feel "right" and may well have been abused from day one. Not the best intro to Amarican cars and hence we don't really connect with them.
Suspect most American's experience of European, (and Japanese/Korean), cars is what they see in Europe etc. They must seem small and lacking in "options" and lots of them are diesels which are, relatively, noisy, particularly at tick-over. That plus the fact that the Germans don't seem to have mastered the art of USA-style service at their American dealers must play a part in degrading the image. (I have to say, here, that the VW dealers I've spoken to here in U.K. are generally useless and the Audi dealers tend to treat you like a slightly unwelcome guest who has to be tolerated.............sweeping generalisations, I know, but that's personal experience).
I'm far from believing the European/Japanese = Good, American = Bad mantra as I think there are vast differences in our cars, for good "local" reasons and it would a damnably boring world if we all had to buy from the same pool. I've never owned an American car - and probably never will - but my experience of European cars has been pretty good, (apart from one Peugeot 307 that tried to kill us by going to full throttle in a 30 zone. Maybe that was just the old French vs English thing, though and it ws trying to even up the score for Trafalgar or Waterloo or something ). My wife's Honda Jazz (Fit) has been faultless in the near 2 years we've had it and that's the sort of comment you expect to hear about Japanese cars.
I do hope that the Germans can get their shop in order in USA as they do have some very good cars out there now, particularly the small diesels. Was reading about the diesel Audi R8 last night and it sounds PDG, (Pretty Damn Good). Of course, the purists are now on the "It's a diesel so can't be a sports car" wagon but is that any different to the "It's European, Japanes,American, (take your pick), it's rubbish" garbage that we've all heard.
Sorry to ramble on - put it down to old age............and the non-flaming for the Mustang comments was greatly appreciated.
It's like comparing our 2005 Focus to the 1999 Civic that I had. At first glance the Focus looks good, but upon closer inspection (i.e., when washing or waxing the car) the lapses, when compared to the Civic, become apparent.
Our '93 Civic was the loudest, rattliest car I have ever had. It was, however, mechanically bullet proof for 180k miles. It was fun to drive, actually, but the rattles and squeeks were too many to count. Our '96 Contour had a squeeky back seat (no comments :P) so it would squeek if someone was sitting in the driver's side back seat, but other than that it remained quiet I still think this is the coolest car I've had. Our '93 Accord squeeked when the temperatures changed (ie from summer to winter and vice versa), but nothing too traumatic. That car was, theoretically made in America, assembled in OH. It had more mechanical issues then the Civic but less body hardware issues. I am surprised you had oil consumption issues with that late model of a Prelude, I thought it was primarily the 88-91s that had that issue.
Two days ago, I was reminded of one small reason why I'm glad I buy American.
I have an '02 Cavalier 5-speed I bought new as a "work" car, and 106K miles later I still wouldn't think twice about driving it cross-country.
I was visiting my mother in her nursing home in my small ex-hometown in NW PA. Brought Mom a brownie and coke to drink. Had a nice visit, then went to leave and saw my keys sitting in the ignition and the doors locked. Called the local Chevy dealer, read my serial no., sent my brother-in-law up to get the new key, and was on my way in less than half an hour total. No import-brand dealers for at least fifteen miles if not more. Total cost: $5.30 including tax.
Bill
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
"Imagine if GM, Chrysler, or Ford were to go out of business, imagine how many Americans would lose their jobs, and think of the large hit our economy would take...."
Tens of thousands of Americans already have lost their jobs, our economy already has taken a large hit ..... but GM, Chrysler, and Ford are still in business. And they'll stay in business no matter what happens.
They'll just keep firing employees to boost their companies' stock prices. They'll keep moving factories to foreign countries. And even if they face a REAL financial crisis, our government will use our money to bail them out. If you doubt that, then you're too young to remember Chrysler in the early 1980s.
The truth is, the people who "work" for the Big 3 are in a separate business from the executives who manage the Big 3. The first group is in business to sell cars. The second group is in business to sell stock.
This corporate divide precludes any concept of "going out of business."
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On a humorous note, here's an answer to the "10 Best" lists that automotive magazines perpetually compile. It's the "10 Worst" cars list from a survey of 27,000 readers. Enjoy:
1. (The worst) Jeep Compass: "Laughable aesthetics, second-rate road manners, pokey performance and interior materials pulled from the bottom drawer of Chrysler's parts bin."
2. Chrysler Sebring: "A born rental car ... hideous in a deeply bland sort of way."
3. Chevrolet Aveo: "From its tinny-sounding doors to its penalty-box interior, the Aveo screams cheap more loudly than an amphetamine-crazed parrot."
4. Dodge Nitro: "Comic-book styling can't overcome the Nitro's fundamental lack of fundamentals."
5. Chevrolet Uplander: "This dead van walking never fooled anyone with its SUV-wannabe styling on a poorly engineered '90s-era platform."
6. Hummer H3: "A 4,700-pound truck with a 220-horsepower, five-cylinder engine ... that is thirstier than Lindsay Lohan just out of rehab, slower than continental drift and rougher than Class VI rapids."
7. Hummer H2: "A huge, slow, thirsty, ungainly 5-year-old truck based on an 8-year-old platform. The H2's immense charisma has vanished as quickly as hopes for a little rapid-fire nation building you-know-where."
8. Chevy TrailBlazer/GMC Envoy: "Old school SUVs in the strictest sense of the term – for anyone whose education involved endless hours at a desk nailed to the floor in a drafty, cheerless classroom."
9. Chrysler Aspen: "A cynical repackaging of the Pleistocene-era Dodge Durango, complete with an arthritic suspension and interior appointments you're best advised not to keep."
10. Saturn Ion: "The lame-duck Ion waddles off the field of battle without achieving any glory whatsoever."
Called the local Chevy dealer, read my serial no., sent my brother-in-law up to get the new key, and was on my way in less than half an hour total. No import-brand dealers for at least fifteen miles if not more. Total cost: $5.30 including tax.
So that is a security feature that anyone can call in a serial number and get keys made for your car? I am actually surprised they can look it up that way, on all my cars you need the key tag number you get when you buy the car.
3. Chevrolet Aveo: "From its tinny-sounding doors to its penalty-box interior, the Aveo screams cheap more loudly than an amphetamine-crazed parrot."
It IS cheap, it is one of the lowest priced cars in America. Go sit in the the Accent or the Rio and come back to me.
5. Chevrolet Uplander: "This dead van walking never fooled anyone with its SUV-wannabe styling on a poorly engineered '90s-era platform."
And now it got replaced by a real crossover, the Arcadia/Enclave, that seem to be doing very well in the press and in the market. Of course those big wide back doors make it a bit harder to get in and out if you park next to anyone, but marketing says Americans won't do sliding doors.
6. Hummer H3: "A 4,700-pound truck with a 220-horsepower, five-cylinder engine ... that is thirstier than Lindsay Lohan just out of rehab, slower than continental drift and rougher than Class VI rapids."
7. Hummer H2: "A huge, slow, thirsty, ungainly 5-year-old truck based on an 8-year-old platform. The H2's immense charisma has vanished as quickly as hopes for a little rapid-fire nation building you-know-where."
Niche market "lifestyle vehicles" don't really seem to affect things very much. Ford has Range Rover (or did until recently), Toyota has the FJ, etc. I think if you only expect to sell 10 or so, it shouldn't be so open for criticism.
8. Chevy TrailBlazer/GMC Envoy: "Old school SUVs in the strictest sense of the term – for anyone whose education involved endless hours at a desk nailed to the floor in a drafty, cheerless classroom."
I don't understand what made these guys so terribly old school? Because they were BOF? They had a brand new designed for them straight 6 and very strong towing capacity, something that seems hard to get from the uni-body crossover glorified station wagons. The Explorer was in the same boat.
10. Saturn Ion: "The lame-duck Ion waddles off the field of battle without achieving any glory whatsoever."
And now GM has the Astra, which is actually cool.
GM and Ford have made plans and begun implementing them, both have come out with a ton of new product with more on the way, and the new stuff looks to be competitive in the respective segment, if not at the front of the class. It can also be seen how much better each new product is than the one it replaced (of course, part of this was because the old product left so much room for competition).
Chrysler really hasn't had a change to find its new privately-held self yet, so I don't want to get into management decisions when the management itself is in turmoil.
They photocopied my brother-in-law's driver's license when he picked the key up for me. They told me on the phone they would need to photocopy mine if I was coming to pick up the new key.
Bill
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I bet most of you out there would buy the Mazda for it's quality and style, rather than a Ford.
Honestly, Yes. Having driven the late-model Ford and Mazda products, the Mazda products were much more to my style than the equivalent Ford product.
By the way, Ford owns 1/3 of Mazda, not the entire company. At one time, GM owned more of Isuzu but there were very few people going around saying that GM owned Isuzu.
On a third and vaguely related point, Ford Mustangs are built in a plant half owned by Mazda.
On a third and vaguely related point, Ford Mustangs are built in a plant half owned by Mazda. Its in Michigan, where the Mazda6 is built. The Ford vehicles that share the Mazda6 platform are made in Mexico.
Well, except for the Ford Edge/Lincoln MKX which are also built on that platform and are built in Oakville, Ontario, Canada.
My car won't let me lock the door if the key is inside the car!!
How do you leave your car idling to keep it warm when it gets real cold out? In Alaska everyone has two keys and lock the car and leave it running to keep it warm while they go shopping or eating out.
How do you leave your car idling to keep it warm when it gets real cold out? In Alaska everyone has two keys and lock the car and leave it running to keep it warm while they go shopping or eating out.
Idling = 0 MPG. That is purely wasting fossil fuels, adding pollutants to the environment and should be fined.
How do you feel about it? Or how would you feel about coming out after two hours at a movie and your car was frozen solid and would not even turn over? Unless you have lived where it stays 30-40 below zero for days on end you would not have a clue. When I worked in the Arctic our trucks were started at 5:30 AM and shut down and plugged in at 5:30 PM. That was from about November till April. When you have a service call you need a warmed up truck to get in and go. Our diesel trucks and diesel Excursions would go about 2 days between needing to be fueled up. When we had gas trucks it was much worse. They do not do real well idling for hours on end.
PS CA has outlawed trucks idling along the road during the winter. Not sure how a truck driver keeps warm when he is taking his mandatory rest breaks. Of course no place in CA gets as cold as the Alaskan interior.
Had a Ford Tempo left it with keys in ignition and windows down doors unlocked in bad part of town, car was still there 6 hours later with everything still intact, think if i did it in a better part of town people may have thrown money into it. Did that several times trying to get rid of it, Junk yard wanted $175 to take it if I drove it in, finally got someone to take it for the wheels and struts, told them they had to take whole car.
Car burns more fuel warming up than sitting at idle for 30 minuets, and where I live in Alaska it has already been below -50f this winter. I know some people that will start their vehicle every 2 hours and let it run for 30 minuets when it gets that cold, just so the vehicle will start when they have to go to work/get off of work. coldest here was below -75f several years ago, this month Tok Alaska hit below -70f, Until you have had to deal with those temperatures don't make any judgments.
Let me say it the way no one has yet presented it, and I think both sides will agree that these two statements are true:
1. If you live in a "super duper cold" area and idling is the difference between your car working or not working, between it being usable and unusable, then idling is a necessity. That does not mean it is not wasteful in it's own way - but it is waste created by complete necessity.
2. If you idle your car just because you want it to be warm inside when you are leaving for work, then that is a complete waste and is not acceptable under normal circumstances. Just wear a coat and some driving gloves and save the fuel.
...a 1994 Cadillac DeVille and its keys looked like the old school GM round key/square keys but with a chip and a contact on the side. Anyway, I park my car at a downtown Philadelphia lot. They keep the keys on the seat of the car, but used this cylinder-looking thingy with a wrench to place over the shaft of the keys to keep thieves from stealing the cars. Anyway, I return and the attendant is telling me he can't start my car. I give it a try and it doesn't work for me either. I'm puzzled as to why the car won't start until I discover that the attendant crushed the chip on the side of the key with the key lock. I showed the key to the attendant and he was really cool about it and drove me back to my home in NE Philly to fetch my spare set of keys. The owner of the lot offered to pay for a replacement key which only cost $35 at that time.
Not totally. I have jumped into a truck, started it and tried to take off when it is -40 degrees. The transmission fluid is so thick you barely move. It is very hard on the transmission until it is warmed up. You should let a vehicle idle (preferably high idle) for about 20 minutes prior to driving when the temp is -10 or below. Our trucks had automatic idle control. It would slowly run engine up to 1600 RPM. That is ideal for the diesel engine. They do not warm up at low idle. Diesels use a lot less fuel idling than gas trucks also.
It does seem to be a waste of fuel. The option is to build a heated garage for your trucks. Our garage at the office would only hold one truck. Not sure if the diesel to run the generator 24/7 was less than idling the truck 12 hours per day.
Then it could be argued that the electricity to cool all the buildings in AZ is a complete waste of fuel.
Not really sure if buying American cars is any more wasteful than buying Japanese or Korean cars
I don't think we are disagreeing. I said "if the warming up is directly required for proper operation of the vehicle" then the idling is a requirement.
(I'm going to completely ignore your jab about AZ A/C since it has no bearing on the current discussion.)
Is the party over in China? Massive unemployment looms China watchers are predicting a drop in the GNP growth rate this year and for the foreseeable future. Most are attributing the expected fall off this year — from last year’s official 11.4 percent, the fifth year in a row of double digit expansion — to the expected downturn in the U.S. and the world economy in general.
Even the 2007 growth rate wasn’t that high when compared with the peaks of the 1980s and 1990s, when GDP growth in some years surpassed 15 percent, coming out of the stagnation and even losses at the end of the Maoist era.
The downturn is going to be welcomed in some Chinese leadership quarters because of the fear of runaway inflation from an overheated economy — now fed by food shortages and the impact of the worst winter in 50 years.
How do you feel about it? Or how would you feel about coming out after two hours at a movie and your car was frozen solid and would not even turn over? Unless you have lived where it stays 30-40 below zero for days on end you would not have a clue.
Alright, for the 10 people living in rural Alaska, we will give the a bi. For those living in southern California, or anywhere south of New England, Michigan's U.P., etc. should get fined.
One option for truck cabs would be to have small LP heaters like the old Westy did.
I agree there is probably no good reason to leave a car running even at 0 degrees. I believe research will show that LP heaters are not allowed indoors in CA without outside venting. I know I wanted a non vented gas log for my fireplaces as they are much more efficient heaters. They are illegal in CA. Available in all other states. Not sure what CA truckers use to keep warm when napping.
If you ever are in Fairbanks AK when it is 40 below zero you will see what I am talking about. The Interior of Alaska is home to over 100,000 people. Most heat with oil. Natural gas is new to much of the Interior.
Comments
They won't run as well on the 87 octane but the knock sensors will retard ignition timing to make up for the lower octane.
Britain now builds some very fine cars - Rolls Royce, Bentley, Nissan, Toyota and the reason is that none of them are in the hands of British management. The workforce are the same blokes but those directing their efforts are far better than of old. Perhaps a similar formula could help turn around the American car industry ?
Ah, but hold on. My original statements are flawed. Our best friends in Texas both drive American cars and they are excellent in every respect. Unfortunately they both wear Honda badges - but they were built in the USA, just not actually "American" cars as I think you would define them. Perhaps the "Dump the management - keep the workforce" formula we saw in U.K. is already working for USA. Just need to redefine "American", perhaps ? Interesting thought.
I haven't had that experience. So far, the # of breakdowns in the first 100k leader for my family is a '93 Accord. The second is a '83 Reliant that had a Mitsubishi engine. My new Accord has mismatched dash panels and poor color matching. The '96 Contour it replaced was used competitively and had only racing related mechanical repairs (brakes, wheel bearings, tires) in its 150k. At just over 100k, it had its parking brake cable and butterfly controller motor replaced. I don't think I could be more happy with that car.
We did the same in the U.K. - then realised that the Germans, Japanese, Swedes actually were building better cars.
Except the European (German currently, British cars went away after the miserable failure of the Sterling...how do you screw up a Honda?) brands are typically at the bottom of every measure of reliability tracked in the US. The Sweedes are both owned by American companies.
-Rocky
-Rocky
Ah, The Rover Sterling. Yes, it did take a real talent to screw up a Honda, but they managed it. However, I do have a friend who is still running his Rover 820i he bought at 6 months old. It just goes on and doesn't breakdown; but the rot is starting to show quite badly now. There's always one.
Yes, Saab and Volvo are both American owned - but not designed or built there. The GM bean counters have not done Saab any favours, though. We don't see enough American cars over here to make real comparisons. The one's we do, PT Cruiser, 300C, Cherokee variants etc are hardly glowing examples of the leading edge of automotive design, or quality. The new Cadillacs might be interesting, (apart from the BLS which is a re-badged old GM-Saab), but again too few around to comment.
A family member's most recernt experience of Americana was mid-December in Florida. Daughter + Partner were there for a holiday. Hired a Mustang V8 convertible for all the right reasons. Both of them said that sitting at rest with the hood down and engine running was all they'd expected. Sun on the face and a lovely V8 rumble. Unfortunately, when they came to drive it the whole illusion was shattered by what they believe is possibly the worst car they have ever driven...................they even sent us a postcard that read simply; "Having a great time. Don't hire a Mustang". Now these folks don't normally drive Rollers etc, they both drive Skoda's but were appalled by the Mustang's quality, or lack of.......and they so wanted to love it.
O.K., I've now slid back the cockpit cover and I'm holding the ejector seat release just witing for the flaming.
Wow, perhaps it had been abused as a rental? I didn't care for the Mustang because I had trouble seeing over the long hood and the rear quarters when maneuvering in tight spaces, but I had no issues at all with the build quality of the vehicle itself.
I am a little concerned as I added a quart of oil so far to the '07 Accord. I hope the clearances are staying in tact on a vehicle with less than 6k. To be fair, I added almost a quart to the Legacy as well, but that vehicle did a lot more work in the last oil change period.
I don't remember the Contour or the '93 Accord using any oil at all (excepting when the front seals went out on the Accord making it dump the entire contents of the oil pan onto the roadway).
Best review I can get is; "It handled like a drunken pig and the materials and general finish were awful. It just felt very cheap and nasty". Not terribly scientific but there you go.
The last car I hired in USA was a Durango XLT for touring Arizona. Thoroughly enjoyed it - in that environment. Would I have one in Europe ? Nope but then I probably wouldn't buy any SUV here anyway. Would I hire another one ? Probably will when we return to Arizona, or wherever, later this year. It's all part of the "experience". Horses for courses, I guess.
Imagine if GM, Chrysler, or Ford were to go out of business, imagine how many Americans would lose their jobs, and think of the large hit our economy would take.... (see the first post for the rest of it).
And if you want a copy of your debtor post, let me know.
I like the Mustang, but build quality does vary...some are good, but others show some lapses. The interior panels and fit of the rear bumper against the quarter panels are problem areas.
It's like comparing our 2005 Focus to the 1999 Civic that I had. At first glance the Focus looks good, but upon closer inspection (i.e., when washing or waxing the car) the lapses, when compared to the Civic, become apparent.
The only time I've had to add oil to any Honda was my 2001 Prelude, which was known for oil consumption issues. Otherwise, my other Hondas have been bulletproof. My experiences have mirrored those reported in Consumer Reports reliability surveys...interestingly, both of our current cars (2003 Accord EX four cylinder and 2005 Focus SE) have pretty closely tracked the ratings in the magazine's reliability surveys.
The domestics are getting better, but the advantage enjoyed by the best of the Japanese (Honda and Toyota) in supplier relations and the way the manage their plants still gives them a (shrinking) lead. Workmanship has also improved, particularly with the GM vehicles.
The difference is that, say, 15 years ago, the rankings were on the order of "awful, mediocre and good," while today they are more like "good, better and best."
At this point, there just isn't room in the American market for three companies turning out vehicles ranging from "okay" to "very good" with different badges, all largely competing in the middle of the market.
If one of the Big Three exited the automobile business, there would be short-term pain (the workers and communities with plants) for long-term gain (the remaining two companies would be healthier)...
Most of our experiences probably centre around falling off a long flight to Florida etc and picking up a rental whatever which is completely different to our "home" car. It just doesn't feel "right" and may well have been abused from day one. Not the best intro to Amarican cars and hence we don't really connect with them.
Suspect most American's experience of European, (and Japanese/Korean), cars is what they see in Europe etc. They must seem small and lacking in "options" and lots of them are diesels which are, relatively, noisy, particularly at tick-over. That plus the fact that the Germans don't seem to have mastered the art of USA-style service at their American dealers must play a part in degrading the image. (I have to say, here, that the VW dealers I've spoken to here in U.K. are generally useless and the Audi dealers tend to treat you like a slightly unwelcome guest who has to be tolerated.............sweeping generalisations, I know, but that's personal experience).
I'm far from believing the European/Japanese = Good, American = Bad mantra as I think there are vast differences in our cars, for good "local" reasons and it would a damnably boring world if we all had to buy from the same pool. I've never owned an American car - and probably never will - but my experience of European cars has been pretty good, (apart from one Peugeot 307 that tried to kill us by going to full throttle in a 30 zone. Maybe that was just the old French vs English thing, though and it ws trying to even up the score for Trafalgar or Waterloo or something
I do hope that the Germans can get their shop in order in USA as they do have some very good cars out there now, particularly the small diesels. Was reading about the diesel Audi R8 last night and it sounds PDG, (Pretty Damn Good). Of course, the purists are now on the "It's a diesel so can't be a sports car" wagon but is that any different to the "It's European, Japanes,American, (take your pick), it's rubbish" garbage that we've all heard.
Sorry to ramble on - put it down to old age............and the non-flaming for the Mustang comments was greatly appreciated.
Our '93 Civic was the loudest, rattliest car I have ever had. It was, however, mechanically bullet proof for 180k miles. It was fun to drive, actually, but the rattles and squeeks were too many to count.
Our '96 Contour had a squeeky back seat (no comments :P) so it would squeek if someone was sitting in the driver's side back seat, but other than that it remained quiet I still think this is the coolest car I've had.
Our '93 Accord squeeked when the temperatures changed (ie from summer to winter and vice versa), but nothing too traumatic. That car was, theoretically made in America, assembled in OH. It had more mechanical issues then the Civic but less body hardware issues.
I am surprised you had oil consumption issues with that late model of a Prelude, I thought it was primarily the 88-91s that had that issue.
I have an '02 Cavalier 5-speed I bought new as a "work" car, and 106K miles later I still wouldn't think twice about driving it cross-country.
I was visiting my mother in her nursing home in my small ex-hometown in NW PA. Brought Mom a brownie and coke to drink. Had a nice visit, then went to leave and saw my keys sitting in the ignition and the doors locked. Called the local Chevy dealer, read my serial no., sent my brother-in-law up to get the new key, and was on my way in less than half an hour total. No import-brand dealers for at least fifteen miles if not more. Total cost: $5.30 including tax.
Bill
Tens of thousands of Americans already have lost their jobs, our economy already has taken a large hit ..... but GM, Chrysler, and Ford are still in business. And they'll stay in business no matter what happens.
They'll just keep firing employees to boost their companies' stock prices. They'll keep moving factories to foreign countries. And even if they face a REAL financial crisis, our government will use our money to bail them out. If you doubt that, then you're too young to remember Chrysler in the early 1980s.
The truth is, the people who "work" for the Big 3 are in a separate business from the executives who manage the Big 3. The first group is in business to sell cars. The second group is in business to sell stock.
This corporate divide precludes any concept of "going out of business."
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On a humorous note, here's an answer to the "10 Best" lists that automotive magazines perpetually compile. It's the "10 Worst" cars list from a survey of 27,000 readers. Enjoy:
1. (The worst) Jeep Compass: "Laughable aesthetics, second-rate road manners, pokey performance and interior materials pulled from the bottom drawer of Chrysler's parts bin."
2. Chrysler Sebring: "A born rental car ... hideous in a deeply bland sort of way."
3. Chevrolet Aveo: "From its tinny-sounding doors to its penalty-box interior, the Aveo screams cheap more loudly than an amphetamine-crazed parrot."
4. Dodge Nitro: "Comic-book styling can't overcome the Nitro's fundamental lack of fundamentals."
5. Chevrolet Uplander: "This dead van walking never fooled anyone with its SUV-wannabe styling on a poorly engineered '90s-era platform."
6. Hummer H3: "A 4,700-pound truck with a 220-horsepower, five-cylinder engine ... that is thirstier than Lindsay Lohan just out of rehab, slower than continental drift and rougher than Class VI rapids."
7. Hummer H2: "A huge, slow, thirsty, ungainly 5-year-old truck based on an 8-year-old platform. The H2's immense charisma has vanished as quickly as hopes for a little rapid-fire nation building you-know-where."
8. Chevy TrailBlazer/GMC Envoy: "Old school SUVs in the strictest sense of the term – for anyone whose education involved endless hours at a desk nailed to the floor in a drafty, cheerless classroom."
9. Chrysler Aspen: "A cynical repackaging of the Pleistocene-era Dodge Durango, complete with an arthritic suspension and interior appointments you're best advised not to keep."
10. Saturn Ion: "The lame-duck Ion waddles off the field of battle without achieving any glory whatsoever."
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So that is a security feature that anyone can call in a serial number and get keys made for your car? I am actually surprised they can look it up that way, on all my cars you need the key tag number you get when you buy the car.
3. Chevrolet Aveo: "From its tinny-sounding doors to its penalty-box interior, the Aveo screams cheap more loudly than an amphetamine-crazed parrot."
It IS cheap, it is one of the lowest priced cars in America. Go sit in the the Accent or the Rio and come back to me.
5. Chevrolet Uplander: "This dead van walking never fooled anyone with its SUV-wannabe styling on a poorly engineered '90s-era platform."
And now it got replaced by a real crossover, the Arcadia/Enclave, that seem to be doing very well in the press and in the market. Of course those big wide back doors make it a bit harder to get in and out if you park next to anyone, but marketing says Americans won't do sliding doors.
6. Hummer H3: "A 4,700-pound truck with a 220-horsepower, five-cylinder engine ... that is thirstier than Lindsay Lohan just out of rehab, slower than continental drift and rougher than Class VI rapids."
7. Hummer H2: "A huge, slow, thirsty, ungainly 5-year-old truck based on an 8-year-old platform. The H2's immense charisma has vanished as quickly as hopes for a little rapid-fire nation building you-know-where."
Niche market "lifestyle vehicles" don't really seem to affect things very much. Ford has Range Rover (or did until recently), Toyota has the FJ, etc. I think if you only expect to sell 10 or so, it shouldn't be so open for criticism.
8. Chevy TrailBlazer/GMC Envoy: "Old school SUVs in the strictest sense of the term – for anyone whose education involved endless hours at a desk nailed to the floor in a drafty, cheerless classroom."
I don't understand what made these guys so terribly old school? Because they were BOF? They had a brand new designed for them straight 6 and very strong towing capacity, something that seems hard to get from the uni-body crossover glorified station wagons. The Explorer was in the same boat.
10. Saturn Ion: "The lame-duck Ion waddles off the field of battle without achieving any glory whatsoever."
And now GM has the Astra, which is actually cool.
GM and Ford have made plans and begun implementing them, both have come out with a ton of new product with more on the way, and the new stuff looks to be competitive in the respective segment, if not at the front of the class. It can also be seen how much better each new product is than the one it replaced (of course, part of this was because the old product left so much room for competition).
Chrysler really hasn't had a change to find its new privately-held self yet, so I don't want to get into management decisions when the management itself is in turmoil.
Bill
Honestly, Yes. Having driven the late-model Ford and Mazda products, the Mazda products were much more to my style than the equivalent Ford product.
By the way, Ford owns 1/3 of Mazda, not the entire company. At one time, GM owned more of Isuzu but there were very few people going around saying that GM owned Isuzu.
On a third and vaguely related point, Ford Mustangs are built in a plant half owned by Mazda.
Its in Michigan, where the Mazda6 is built. The Ford vehicles that share the Mazda6 platform are made in Mexico.
Its in Michigan, where the Mazda6 is built. The Ford vehicles that share the Mazda6 platform are made in Mexico.
Well, except for the Ford Edge/Lincoln MKX which are also built on that platform and are built in Oakville, Ontario, Canada.
My car won't let me lock the door if the key is inside the car!!
:P
That's so old school...
I put my hand on the handle then voila! The door is unlocked.
I've got an easier solution. Buy a car that nobody wants to steal. That way you never have to lock it. It's worked for me.
The new ad campaign for the Chevy Aveo!
How do you leave your car idling to keep it warm when it gets real cold out? In Alaska everyone has two keys and lock the car and leave it running to keep it warm while they go shopping or eating out.
Idling = 0 MPG. That is purely wasting fossil fuels, adding pollutants to the environment and should be fined.
Ask me how I really feel about it.
How do you feel about it? Or how would you feel about coming out after two hours at a movie and your car was frozen solid and would not even turn over? Unless you have lived where it stays 30-40 below zero for days on end you would not have a clue. When I worked in the Arctic our trucks were started at 5:30 AM and shut down and plugged in at 5:30 PM. That was from about November till April. When you have a service call you need a warmed up truck to get in and go. Our diesel trucks and diesel Excursions would go about 2 days between needing to be fueled up. When we had gas trucks it was much worse. They do not do real well idling for hours on end.
PS
CA has outlawed trucks idling along the road during the winter. Not sure how a truck driver keeps warm when he is taking his mandatory rest breaks. Of course no place in CA gets as cold as the Alaskan interior.
I know some people that will start their vehicle every 2 hours and let it run for 30 minuets when it gets that cold, just so the vehicle will start when they have to go to work/get off of work.
coldest here was below -75f several years ago, this month Tok Alaska hit below -70f, Until you have had to deal with those temperatures don't make any judgments.
I've got one of those cars as well. But mine has keys that can be purchased at Home Depot.
1. If you live in a "super duper cold" area and idling is the difference between your car working or not working, between it being usable and unusable, then idling is a necessity. That does not mean it is not wasteful in it's own way - but it is waste created by complete necessity.
2. If you idle your car just because you want it to be warm inside when you are leaving for work, then that is a complete waste and is not acceptable under normal circumstances. Just wear a coat and some driving gloves and save the fuel.
Agreed?
He just needs to think warm, fuzzy thoughts about the spotted owls and chipmunks.
"Had a Ford Tempo left it with keys in ignition and windows down doors unlocked in bad part of town, car was still there 6 hours later."
This is one of the funniest stories I ever heard! A car that even thieves won't steal!
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Not totally. I have jumped into a truck, started it and tried to take off when it is -40 degrees. The transmission fluid is so thick you barely move. It is very hard on the transmission until it is warmed up. You should let a vehicle idle (preferably high idle) for about 20 minutes prior to driving when the temp is -10 or below. Our trucks had automatic idle control. It would slowly run engine up to 1600 RPM. That is ideal for the diesel engine. They do not warm up at low idle. Diesels use a lot less fuel idling than gas trucks also.
It does seem to be a waste of fuel. The option is to build a heated garage for your trucks. Our garage at the office would only hold one truck. Not sure if the diesel to run the generator 24/7 was less than idling the truck 12 hours per day.
Then it could be argued that the electricity to cool all the buildings in AZ is a complete waste of fuel.
Not really sure if buying American cars is any more wasteful than buying Japanese or Korean cars
(I'm going to completely ignore your jab about AZ A/C since it has no bearing on the current discussion.)
Is the party over in China?
Massive unemployment looms
China watchers are predicting a drop in the GNP growth rate this year and for the foreseeable future. Most are attributing the expected fall off this year — from last year’s official 11.4 percent, the fifth year in a row of double digit expansion — to the expected downturn in the U.S. and the world economy in general.
Even the 2007 growth rate wasn’t that high when compared with the peaks of the 1980s and 1990s, when GDP growth in some years surpassed 15 percent, coming out of the stagnation and even losses at the end of the Maoist era.
The downturn is going to be welcomed in some Chinese leadership quarters because of the fear of runaway inflation from an overheated economy — now fed by food shortages and the impact of the worst winter in 50 years.
How do you feel about it? Or how would you feel about coming out after two hours at a movie and your car was frozen solid and would not even turn over? Unless you have lived where it stays 30-40 below zero for days on end you would not have a clue.
Alright, for the 10 people living in rural Alaska, we will give the a bi. For those living in southern California, or anywhere south of New England, Michigan's U.P., etc. should get fined.
One option for truck cabs would be to have small LP heaters like the old Westy did.
If you ever are in Fairbanks AK when it is 40 below zero you will see what I am talking about. The Interior of Alaska is home to over 100,000 people. Most heat with oil. Natural gas is new to much of the Interior.
I suppose we are a bit off the subject here.