Many years ago I was in post grad college in the midwest. Like many of my fellow students, I outfitted my two cars with electric engine block heaters. About two hours before time to drive, I would flip on the porch light switch. I had the appropriate engine heater plugged into that same electric socket. Believe me when I tell you it gets cold, yes very cold, in the upper midwest during winter! My solution to preheating the engine worked extremely well. Toasty water jackets did the trick.
Yes in Alaska most people plug in their cars at night. Some use timers. Most just leave them on all night. It is while at work or shopping that you do not have anyplace to plug them in.
That's a waste too - I just flipped a switched outlet like wtd44 when I woke up and an hour later was good to go. If there was a real cold spell, I'd plug my electric interior car heater in and run that plug to the same outside outlet and that would warm up the glass (20 winters in Anchorage without a garage - I'm a slow learner). Mostly I didn't bother unless it was 10 below or worse.
Lots of the employee parking lots had plugins, but otherwise you could have problems getting going after your car sat downtown all day. Some people would take shallow firepans if they were going into their cabin for a weekend. If their car wouldn't crank when they skied or snowmachined back to their rig, they'd light a small charcoal fire. Then they'd slide the coals under the oil pan for a while.
Many truck stops are converting over to plug in stations so the truckers can run their coolers, laptops and interior lights and heaters etc. on the grid instead of idling their engines.
And yeah, we seem to be off-topic .... but it's a holiday weekend so ....
"Every second car on any American road boasts a bumper sticker of a favourite driver's number and supporters are so devout that rain delays of races often garner superior television ratings to the NBA and NHL play-offs."
Having lived in Anchorage you know that garages were not as common as people would think. Heated garages also caused rusted out cars with condensation. I never plugged in my car under the carport and both my 70 Datsun PU and 74 Dodge van always started. Even at 30 below up at the top of Rabbit Creek Rd.
It is a Holiday weekend. I set my straw bales today and started watering them down. Never used a drop of gas. Church is only 2.8 miles now from the house. So it won't use much. Monday I may just BBQ and kick back on the patio with a nice glass of wine or jump in the hot tub. Life is good in the slow lane. Spring is close at hand. The Hooded Orioles are back...
" I am attracted to vehicles that are badged with American car names."
Even if they're built in Mexico?
This a great marketing idea for the coming Chinese cars. They should slap an emblem on the vehicles that features a U.S. Flag and the words "John Smith Car Company."
Of course Toyota now races NASCAR - but the Camrys are made in the US. Ford's NASCAR racer is supposed to be the Mexican-built Fusion and Chevrolet's is supposed to be the Canadian-built Impala...but the "imported" car from Toyota is supposed to be the Kentucky-built Camry. I love the irony.
For lack of explicit characteristics, I am attracted to vehicles that are badged with American car names. So, to you, something like the Korean-built Ford Aspire or Korean-built Chevrolet Aveo is more desirable than the American-built Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic? Even if more money from the sale of a Corolla or Civic goes to pay Americans?
This a great marketing idea for the coming Chinese cars. They should slap an emblem on the vehicles that features a U.S. Flag and the words "John Smith Car Company."
Then we'll buy them.
Better yet, they could buy a dormant brand name. They've already purchased MG so why not take over DeSoto or Studebaker or....or American Motors? Ohh....I've got to go and broker a deal for that one....
The first Japanese vehicle I ever bought was the Plymouth Sapporo. Having the American name on this "captive" import made all the difference. I felt safe enough to make the purchase, having confidence in Chrysler Corporation to back up my purchase with dependable warranty service, if needed.
Better yet, they could buy a dormant brand name. They've already purchased MG so why not take over DeSoto or Studebaker or....or American Motors? Ohh....I've got to go and broker a deal for that one....
This has already happened in the bicycle industry. Schwinn, which in the olden days was out of Chicago, is now Chinese. A lot of the old classic Italian road frame manufacturers' names are now part of Chinese holding companies.
What's in a Name. We used to be so brand conscious. Now the brand seems so unimportant. Some companies have spent $millions to get a name that means absolutely nothing in any language. Some names are surrounded in mystery. Possibly the most universally recognized name worldwide is Kodak. Yet it is becoming just another name in this age of digital photography. What was more American than GM? Where does an Aveo come from? Ever see a Zenith TV anymore. They are just a brand owned by the LG conglomerate out of Korea. Maytag just part of the Whirlpool conglomerate. Who knows where your appliances are made until you get them delivered to your kitchen.
I don't think there is a vehicle made 100% in the USA today.
Geez Louis, he's talking about back in the old days when he bought his "captive import" Plymouth Sapporo. Most anyone over a certain age knows that the Japanese manufacturers' dealer networks weren't then, what they are now.
Bill
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I don't think there is a vehicle made 100% in the USA today.
There are a few cars and trucks that have "domestic content" (US and Canadian content) in the 90+% range, but you are correct...there are NO 100% US-built (or even US/Canadian-built) cars or trucks today.
Geez Louis, he's talking about back in the old days when he bought his "captive import" Plymouth Sapporo. Most anyone over a certain age knows that the Japanese manufacturers' dealer networks weren't then, what they are now.
Tell the kids today about the days when Datsun and Toyota and Honda weren't sold at mega-dealers or when buying a Japanese-branded car was an anomaly and they'll never believe that you're that old! Explain that this was in the "olden times" before AOL and prior MTV. Back when there were FOUR domestic manufacturers. Ancient history.
"Barely six years after 9/11 had stoked renewed patriotism in every area of American life — notably including marketing — a survey last fall of large-company CMOs and other senior executives illustrated this reality. “Buy American” was one of the bottom 10 marketing concepts in importance to the members of the Marketing Executive Networking Group, along with other hoary themes such as Six Sigma. On top: “Customer satisfaction” and “customer retention.”
I would be in the 28%. To me I would want the car to have at least 50% US content. May not be possible on a vehicle I would own. Just seems that should be the criteria to get the Made in USA sticker. I am hoping that my Sequoia is mostly US content. All I can find is Made in USA on the window sticker.
The Sequoia is the first Toyota SUV that was designed and built in the U.S. Toyota continues to slant the Sequoia's characteristics toward American needs and tastes, and, it is a first-rate people-hauler.
I do dissent, yet what I would like to know next is if this affects their buying decision.
I guess I would ask would they be less likely to buy from say Hyundai if Hyundai were to pull it's operations from the US, or would they be more likely to buy the Alabama built Hyundai over the Korean built Chevy Aveo as an example.
Check the window again. My Camry and Corolla have sticker that lists part content source. The Camry is 75% North American part content, the Corolla I think (it's been a long time) was around 65%.
I would be in the 28%. To me I would want the car to have at least 50% US content. May not be possible on a vehicle I would own. Just seems that should be the criteria to get the Made in USA sticker. I am hoping that my Sequoia is mostly US content. All I can find is Made in USA on the window sticker.
As Mcdawgg said, there should be a domestic content sticker with your truck stating the vehicle's US/Canadian content. A "domestic" vehicle, by governmental standards, has 75% (I believe that's the level) US/Canadian content...not just 50%. I'm more of a free-market kind of person, but I like the higher ratings of 67% or 75% instead of just 50% for my personal level of "American."
I believe your truck would be well above 50% US/Canadian content.
I will look harder on the vehicle. The Mulroney window sticker does not show anything about content. The name Sequoia is about as American as you can get.
"3. Chevrolet Aveo: "From its tinny-sounding doors to its penalty-box interior, the Aveo screams cheap more loudly than an amphetamine-crazed parrot.""
Yeah but isn;t the Aveo a pretty good seller? I mean how many Yaris's does Toyota sell?
"5. Chevrolet Uplander: "This dead van walking never fooled anyone with its SUV-wannabe styling on a poorly engineered '90s-era platform."
I think the Uplander is only sold to rental fleets now.
"2. Chrysler Sebring: "A born rental car ... hideous in a deeply bland sort of way."
Boy, one would thought with the release of the 07 Sebring that Chrysler would have rode the momentum the sales success of the 300? Well they didn;t.
I think the Uplander is only sold to rental fleets now.
Wrong. Retail buyers can buy an Uplander. It's the last GM minivan available, until Chevy introduces their version of the Lambda platform for the '09 model year.
Bill
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
A reporter seeks to interview owners of cars with more than 100,000 miles on their odometers. Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com today, February 21, 2008, with your daytime contact information and a few sentences about your vehicle.
Don't beleive the media published percentages on content. The US government mandated back in the early 80's that within 5 yrs that 85% of the content should be purchased from companies located in the USA.
During that timeframe the Asian suppliers quickily went to the states of Indiana, Ohio, Kentucky Tenn, and other southern localities to establish new supplier operations using handouts from our state treasuries and our federal govt. to build new plants with state of the art eguipment. These new plants were given tax-exempt status for years so that they could help the local communties grow.
The money goes back to Japan to pay all the dislocated workers affected by the move to the USA ---which created unemployment and early retirements on the small island--Approx 1500 suppliers to the domestic transplants are Asian owned.
I don't ever remember the Federal or State govts being benevolent to the big 3..Yes Chrysler was given a Bailout, but Lee repaid it. The only industry that the Federal Govt saved was Harley-Davidson back in the early 80s when the Hog was on the brink of failure--our sweet govt imposed a 5yr tariff on cycles coming from Asia in a certain size or displacement class. Harley survived thanks to our govt..
I spent 32 yrs on the supplier side to the Big 3 and the marine industry and our politicians has made it every difficult for our traditional industries to survive..Spent 2yrs with a Japanese manufacturing facility in Battle Creek, Mich supplying the marine, snowmobile, and auto market as VP Sales/Markerting during 82-84, so I do understand how the business has evolved..
I have owned 43 cars during my driving career, only 2 were not domestic-1958 & 1959 Porsches, great cars bought new in Germany and brought the 59er back to the states--sold it. The other 41 cars were all "Detroit Iron".
Detroit made America "great" and has had a big hand in keeping us "free" during all the war years, so my car dollars will stay with them. I would rarther pay retirement benfits and health costs for the BIG 3, than those costs for the folks in Japan. Honda and Toyota won't have any retirees in the USA for another 20yrs.
The content of the Big 3 has gone from high percentage domestic to foreign content to compete in the marketplace that exists today.
Your posting has the ring of truth and irony in it, and I truly enjoyed reading it. I can't report the number of American brand cars I've owned, nor the foreign , but I can safely say that the far-and-away majority have had an American name on them.
Taxpayer incentives are a way of life for most cities and states. There's lots of federal EDA money out there for subsidizing infrastructure and capital costs to create and save jobs.
GM got $107 million in incentives just in Flint MI in 1998 for example - that's $152,857 per job. (link). If GM isn't getting more, then they aren't playing the game.
Here's a laundry list of big federal grants for the last couple of years just for job creation. Note the big one for Ardmore Development Authority to help build a plant to make Chinese MGs in Oklahoma - the idea is that 150 jobs will be created to offset the loss of 2100 GM jobs.
I don't really mind the EDA incentives too much - it's the ones that the states and cities give out that really wind up giving the store away. But that's another subject I guess.
Right on, motorcity!!! ALL my cars have been domestic makes in 27 years of driving. I'm currently the proud owner of a 2007 Cadillac DTS Performance, 1989 Cadillac Brougham, and a 1988 Buick Park Avenue. Funny thing is, a young guy who works at my part-time job wanted to buy my Park Ave.
Maybe if our government showed as much interest in saving our industrial base as it does sending money down the Iraq rat hole, the Big Three would be in better shape?
I understand how you feel about Detroit. Philadelphia used to be called the "Workshop of the World." Philadelphia was once the home of diverse manufacturers such as Botany 500, Stetson Hat, Baldwin Locomotive, The Budd Company, After Six, Philco, General Electric, Merck, Whitman's Chocolates, etc. As far as I can tell, the only things still manufactured in Philadelphia these days are Tastykakes and crack rocks. Nearby cities had slogans like "Trenton Makes The World Takes" and "What Chester Makes Makes Chester." Well the world took all of Trenton's jobs and nothing is made in Chester nowadays so what does that make Chester?
I have mixed emotions about the tax-free handouts from states to the Asian companies, but I tend to lean in favor of them...my reasoning may wander, so bear with me as I try and write a coherent thought...
If we lose jobs under the guise of "free trade" (and I suppose we could argue that phrase for awhile, but bear with me) because our citizens want Toy/Hondas more than GM/Ford, then GM/Ford will suffer in the marketplace and shrink due to lack of demand, and their communities will lose jobs as the factories close...
If newer manufacturers ( not to start a war here, but probably non-union) are willing to come in and build plants to service the Big Guy (the Honda or Toyota plant), it may be in the state's best interest to offer incentives to build the plant...remember, once the plant is built, that new state-of-the-art equipment will sit there for a (presumably) long time, much longer than the tax-free years the plant has been granted (often about 10 years)...meanwhile, the city/county/state may not really lose much on the downside because the original plant that closed will no longer pay (much) property taxes if it is bulldozed to the dirt and there are no payroll taxes or folks earning money if the plant is closed and everyone is laid off...so, as it is, the state has NO BENEFITS from the Big 3 plant (or whatever company it was) that used to be there, so by extending tax breaks to a new plant, they don't really lose much, and eventually the new plant WILL pay those taxes, it is only an abatement for 10 years...
Meanwhile, workers are getting paid to build the plant, renovate the roads and railways, payroll taxes are being paid, workers are being paid to pay their mortgages and support local grocery stores, restaurants and hardware stores, the the economic engine (like it or not, this IS the TRICKLE DOWN EFFECT that Reagan spoke of in the 1980s) really is working, and the local economy can become vibrant again...yes, the county does not receive property taxes for 10 years, but they get a NEW FACTORY with jobs to compensate...then, 10 years from now, they start getting a sudden jolt of propert taxes that will continue for years...
While tax incentives are not a federal constitutional function, it is certainly with the realm of state gov'ts to offer...
And while a direct injection of cash to Harley Davidson from the feds would be wrong, placing tariffs on imported goods (competititors) is absolutely within the power of the fed gov't to do...
Now let's go off topic and mention free trade...when I envisioned free trade, it meant equal access to each other's markets...in reality, it appears that other nations (Japan, China) put up "other barriers" (like endless inspections of each item, rather than spot check as we do) so our products take longer to get into their streams of commerce than theirs do in ours, AND THAT AIN'T FREE TRADE!!!!!
So I have advocated what Pat Buchanan has called for many years, Fair Trade, and it is simple...whatever provisions the Asians (or Europeans or whoever) want in their trade agreements, we just mirror the same provisions for us...and whatever they do to slow down our products into their country, we simply do the exact same thing over here...they could NEVER call it a trade war or a trade restriction, because what is good for the goose is good for the gander...if we do to you what you do to us, how can that be anything but fair???
So, if it takes 60 days for a Jeep to get to a Japanese dealer, then it should take 60 days for any imported Honda, Toyota, Nissan to get to an American dealer...let them watch their products sit in Long Beach for 2 months and watch how fast those Japanese barriers come down...it could happen faster than the speed of light...
I currently own American iron, but I have also owned Hondas and admired their quality and design...I am the first to stand up and talk about how I believe that the UAW has destroyed the basic quality of Big 3 cars over the last 30 years...and I also believe that Japanese carmakers are the SOLE reason that American iron quality is far better today that 1980...
Having said that, I also believe that we should compete on an even playing field, and the Asians have set up the playing field seriously against us in their home countries, and our US Trade Representative should have the guts to negate trade agreements until the provisions are equal and fair...
Anyway, that is why I am in favor of incentives from the states, because you are not comparing apples to apples...if the state was receiving all that property tax and payroll tax and economic vitality from the unemployed workers and the shut-down plant, your argument would be valid...but the state is looking at a local depression without payroll tax, payroll, property tax, and the ripple effect...
Basically, the state, by granting an exemption of property tax ON PROPERTY IT WAS NOT GETTING TAX ON ANYWAY, they draw in all the other economic benefits of the new plant and all of its attendant trickle down effects, so the butcher, the baker, the hardware store, the grocery store, the movie theater, the jeweler, the auto parts store, the auto technician and everybody else now experience the economic effect of 2000 people who now have regular jobs...
I fail to see the downside for a state to offer benefits of tax abatement to a company that seems to be growing, whereas giving those same benefits of abatements to a shrinking compant (Ford/GM) will not assure that the plant will stay open...whenever they close a plant, I am quite sure that the local property tax is never the reason to keep a Big 3 plant open or closed, so an abatement would really be a waste of time for the state...
For whatever reason the Big 3 close plants (unions, management) property tax simply ain't in the top 20 reasons, whereas to lure a plant of a growing company, and also bring in all their supplier vendors on the coattail effect, simply by a tax abatement would seem like a wise and small investment for the potential economic benefits to be reaped...
Further, to belabor the point...giving the abatement to GM may or may not cause them to continue making cars in that plant...
But, from the moment the Asian plant breaks ground with the first shovel, hundreds, if not thousands of jobs may be created overnight, as concrete, tractors, bulldozers, railroad tracks are laid, roadways are expanded, and a 20 miles radius can suddenly become a beehive of activity that may last for years...
What is the downside???...other than if Honda or Toyota goes bankrupt and closes the plant, but, looking at the market as it is today, the Big 3 share is falling like a rock and the gap is being closed by Toy and Honda, who seem to be growing daily, or at least they are a better gamble than GM or Ford...
If I was a Governor, I would rather attract a Honda plant than a Ford plant, sadly, because Ford's future is extremely uncertain, leaning to the
My wife and sister-in-law both work for fortune 500 companies that provide them with company cars. For the first time both companies are offering Toyota's as an option for a company provided vehicle. My wife's company is now offering Prius' as an option and my SIL's company is offering Camrys.
I wonder if this is a trend among most companies offering company vehicles?
If the company is paying for maintenance and absorbing depreciation, they may have the same opinion that many folks now have...the imports have better cars that get better mileage, with less maintenance and less depreciation, which will always affect the bottom line of the company who pays for it...
Yeah, Chevy has 10 models that get over 30 mpg...but Toy has the rep for quality...
Argue with me all you want, the company has a different opinion, or they would not have opened up the options to include imports...
In reading your post, it was quite coherent, Bob. I agree with the "what's good for the goose" proposition, although I wonder how much grousing you would hear from other countries(too bad for them). although, as far as this quote:
If we lose jobs under the guise of "free trade" (and I suppose we could argue that phrase for awhile, but bear with me) because our citizens want Toy/Hondas more than GM/Ford, then GM/Ford will suffer in the marketplace and shrink due to lack of demand, and their communities will lose jobs as the factories close...
I have often wondered how many people have "come out of the closet" so to speak (for lack of a better phrase) and have bought cars from the Asian Big 3 primarily because they felt comfortable now knowing that these cars were built here. Toyota is tripping all over itself trying to wrap the Tundra in an American flag in it's ads, and considering their sales, it must have SOME impact on the buying public's feeling to this effect.
As far as tax incentives, I will disagree to a certain extent. Down South, where there was once nothing it sure does make sense to offer incentives to get people in and working. Up here in RI (arguably the birthplace of the industrial revolution) we have to do it just to maintain the status quo, and in some ways we end up losing our tax base that way.
What we end up with is states fighting one another in some sort of economic "civil war" all the while other countries are trying to entice our companies to send our work there. Somehow, I would like to see all 50 of us sticking together to keep the other countries at bay. What bothers me is that, from a workforce point of view, for every 1 of us here, there are like 7 in India and China.
Yeah, Chevy has 10 models that get over 30 mpg...but Toy has the rep for quality...
While this may be true, don't forget GM is cutting back on it's fleet sales, which opens up the market to others. The local Enterprise, a longtime GM mainstay for rental cars, has lots of Asian cars for rent on the lot now.
As much as I have railed (sp?) against the UAW and my belief that the Big 3 have gone down because of union work rules and sloppy work by UAW members, there has always been a part of me that wants us to whip the collective a**es of the Asians and make a product that puts theirs to shame...
Considering how well they make the imports here, it is 101% proof positive to me that the American work force can be the best...maybe I do have a hangup, but it just seems to me that the folks who make up the UAW have done everything possible to preserve their jobs without making their product any better, except in recent years...
While management is obviously different, it just seems like that workers for Toy/Hon/Nis are grateful to have their jobs and make a good product, while the union seems to have a you-owe-me-a-job mentality and they slap the car together any way they can...am I biased???...I would say so...but Big 3 market share is shrinking, and it isn't because they make the best cars...
I believe we should compete fairly, and if we lose, well, may the best man win...but when the trade rules are stacked against us, I want a level playing field, so the best man (or woman) CAN win...
Like it or not, when I had my 88 Prelude and 88 Legend, I will tell you that, to this day, they were the best designed cars I ever owned...everything was in easy reach and it was just where you thought it would be...it was like someone who actually drove a car designed the driver's compartments for these cars, whereas sometimes it seems that Big 3 cars were designed on a computer so that it would be comfortable for a computer, not a human, to drive it...
Americans need to wake up, or maybe just the union needs to wake up...we CAN do the best work out there, but we are hamstrung by work rules that worked in the 60s, but not now...we OWNED the world in the 60s, 70s, early 80s, but they have caught up and we were sleeping...it seems many folks understand that except those who work in manufacturing, as it is they who must improve their productivity or lose their jobs to those overseas...
Yeah, our productivity has improved, but, frankly, going from an "F" to a "D" simply is not enough...not because Bob says so, I am a nobody...the market is speaking, and it is speaking with such force, anything one may say to respond to me simply makes me say, "Your plant is about to close because they do it more profitably elsewhere, so your reasoning, whatever it is, is wrong"...
We can build refrigerators, washing machines, cars, whatever, but we must be competitive...something must be wrong if they build them elsewhere and, despite the high cost of fuel, it is still cheaper to import them...
One thing it has taught the American worker, and maybe even some Democrats...companies were not established to provide jobs, they were established to provide PROFIT, and when profit disappears, so go the jobs...when profit returns, so will the jobs...that means more manufactured units per worker or the jobs stay elsewhere...cruel???maybe...as Trump would say, "It's nothing personal, it's strictly business"...
Temporary end of rant...but the test will STILL be tomorrow...
...but the test will STILL be tomorrow... :surprise:
As Eddie Murphy once said " Um...that's OK....I'll take the zero"
Anyhow....., unfortunately, in your last paragraph, that becomes a vicious circle. Yes, if the company can't make a profit, it can't pay workers. However, if they try to be unscrupulous and make a profit off the employees backs, or just say "....hey, it's cheaper in China" and try to make a killing, then the employee doesn't have the money to buy the products. So, some sort of balance must be struck.
I hear what you are saying about your Honda products. I had an'88 Buick Regal I bought new and I too liked the styling, thought things were layed out right (but I am used to GM layouts so it took no time to learn the controls) but there were issues w/ the rear calipers seizing. Poor design, plain and simple. Had nothing to do with unscrupulous union workmanship. Not to say it isn't a problem (I remember your story-"....lets see if they can find THIS rattle, heh,heh") That could be enough to turn off anybody trying the product for the first time. I too hear this "slow down, you move too fast" mantra. It's not right. It's not union. IT'S NOT AMERICAN!!!!. But, screw me once, shame on you. Screw me twice, shame on me! Many of my co-workers feel they were betrayed at times, working hard, only to be told your not working hard enough, or when the work dried up, to screw-we don't need you anymore, only to be called back a couple weeks later. Other people want you to slow down because they want the OT to keep rolling their way. Either way, on either side of the coin, it comes down to one thing...Unscrupulous GREED.... and it hurts all our images.
When I mentioned Indian lawyers in the UAW thread, it's not because I hope your clients take their work to them if they had the choice (as many medical patients seem to be doing nowodays). I don't want that. I don't like that. To me it is an insult to you and your hard work in getting that degree and the tens (hundreds??) of thousands you spent getting there. But to me, this is where we are on equal footing in the respect that I think we both DESERVE a fair salary for the job we do.
...THE MOMENTUM. My recent experiences with both foreign and domestic branded cars and trucks indicate a far closer quality aspect than many posters in this topic would likely acknowledge. Perhaps there is a momentum favoring the offshore brands based on the past. I believe that recent vehicles are far more equivalent in quality than they were not so long ago.
My wife and sister-in-law both work for fortune 500 companies that provide them with company cars. For the first time both companies are offering Toyota's as an option for a company provided vehicle. My wife's company is now offering Prius' as an option and my SIL's company is offering Camrys.
I wonder if this is a trend among most companies offering company vehicles
Eh, you know how everyone always picks on Ford and GM for fleet sales...well, they stopped doing it so much...now it costs more to rent a car and companies are offering different vehicles in thier fleets.
Lived in Grosse Pte, Mi, 1968 thru 1979, returned in 1984 and finally left on May 16, 2002. for the sunny South. Certainly wasn't sad to leave the Motor City, however my retirement was due to my wife's diagnosis of a noncurable health problem that took its course last Nov.. No stranger to Fla for I had a condo on the east coast since 1988 where she spent the winters--live on the west coast now after a 5 yr stay in Ocala.
My average yearly mileage since 1968 was around 60,000/yr, so I spent alot of time pushing the pavement. Most of the cars were sold after 75k to 90k miles with brakes,tires,wheel balance, and suspension the most prevelant problem areas. Engine,trans,a/c,and elec problems were virtually non-existant. I favored the cars with harshest suspension and Buick's sporty suspension was always a farce, but easily cured with performance after-market struts or shocks.
My initial posting "85% foreign content" drew some great comments..The UAW has been beat around and blamed for many of Detroit's ills. I spent 7 years as VP/Opers of plant producing springs and stampings in the heart of the UAW world, some 15 miles south of Flint. Yes, it was a UAW plant-we made money-for we retained the right to run the shop, good pricing and high productivity wins every time.
My stint with the Japanese mfgr in Battle Creek was interesting for the plant was initially 100% Japanese mgt, however after staggering loses they sent everyone but three back to the island, hiring Americans to run the operation.
I have been through the process of the role that our govt had in enticing them to flock to America and dismantle the Big 3 along with destroying the US manufacturing base. They created the "Rust Belt".
Since 1985 I was involved in the Forging and Steel casting industry as a self-employed commisioned rep supplying parts such as forged crankshafts, connecting rods, truck suspension components, and military tank track shoes. My principals were located in Michigan and Canada with main customers in Mich, Ind, Ohio, and Ontario.
Even the Michigan congressional folks---Conyers, Levin, Dingell, and Srabenow have thrown the Big 3 and the UAW "under the bus" for it is more benefical to their careers to cater to the Enviromental whacks with higher gas taxes and the wonderful new mileage edit for 2020 of 35mpg.. No we can't drill for oil or be allowed to help ourselves--grow corn and HOPE FOR CHANGE...
How about the new light bulbs that contain mercury--mandatory in 2012, another winner!!!!
I really do not want to cross into the area of discussing the merits of Big 3 cars versus the other guys for there are other forums which deal with the chatter of praise as well as the panning...
Out of the 43 cars owned ,some were oustanding, and a few rather mediorce, however, I have lived in an era which will never be duplicated in the future. It was a blast filled with opportunity, blessed with lots of freedom to do what struck your fancy.. Government has gotten too oppressive and law crazy.
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That's a waste too - I just flipped a switched outlet like wtd44 when I woke up and an hour later was good to go. If there was a real cold spell, I'd plug my electric interior car heater in and run that plug to the same outside outlet and that would warm up the glass (20 winters in Anchorage without a garage - I'm a slow learner). Mostly I didn't bother unless it was 10 below or worse.
Lots of the employee parking lots had plugins, but otherwise you could have problems getting going after your car sat downtown all day. Some people would take shallow firepans if they were going into their cabin for a weekend. If their car wouldn't crank when they skied or snowmachined back to their rig, they'd light a small charcoal fire. Then they'd slide the coals under the oil pan for a while.
Many truck stops are converting over to plug in stations so the truckers can run their coolers, laptops and interior lights and heaters etc. on the grid instead of idling their engines.
And yeah, we seem to be off-topic .... but it's a holiday weekend so ....
Scotland on Sunday
Of course Toyota now races NASCAR - but the Camrys are made in the US.
It is a Holiday weekend. I set my straw bales today and started watering them down. Never used a drop of gas. Church is only 2.8 miles now from the house. So it won't use much. Monday I may just BBQ and kick back on the patio with a nice glass of wine or jump in the hot tub. Life is good in the slow lane. Spring is close at hand. The Hooded Orioles are back...
And my bales are already nicely saturated from all the snow we got last month.
Airport run in the morning in my Indiana built car; then up to the hill.
Even if they're built in Mexico?
This a great marketing idea for the coming Chinese cars. They should slap an emblem on the vehicles that features a U.S. Flag and the words "John Smith Car Company."
Then we'll buy them.
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Ford's NASCAR racer is supposed to be the Mexican-built Fusion and Chevrolet's is supposed to be the Canadian-built Impala...but the "imported" car from Toyota is supposed to be the Kentucky-built Camry. I love the irony.
For lack of explicit characteristics, I am attracted to vehicles that are badged with American car names.
So, to you, something like the Korean-built Ford Aspire or Korean-built Chevrolet Aveo is more desirable than the American-built Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic? Even if more money from the sale of a Corolla or Civic goes to pay Americans?
Then we'll buy them.
Better yet, they could buy a dormant brand name. They've already purchased MG so why not take over DeSoto or Studebaker or....or American Motors? Ohh....I've got to go and broker a deal for that one....
If you shop Harbor Freight, you'll notice that all the cheap Chinese tools have names like Chicago Pneumatic, Pittsburgh, and US General.
This has already happened in the bicycle industry. Schwinn, which in the olden days was out of Chicago, is now Chinese. A lot of the old classic Italian road frame manufacturers' names are now part of Chinese holding companies.
We used to be so brand conscious. Now the brand seems so unimportant. Some companies have spent $millions to get a name that means absolutely nothing in any language. Some names are surrounded in mystery. Possibly the most universally recognized name worldwide is Kodak. Yet it is becoming just another name in this age of digital photography. What was more American than GM? Where does an Aveo come from? Ever see a Zenith TV anymore. They are just a brand owned by the LG conglomerate out of Korea. Maytag just part of the Whirlpool conglomerate. Who knows where your appliances are made until you get them delivered to your kitchen.
I don't think there is a vehicle made 100% in the USA today.
So you are saying imports like Nissan, Toyota, Honda, BMW, Audi and MB won't honor their warranty?
Do you have proofs on that one or you are just pulling things out of your bacons?
Bill
There are a few cars and trucks that have "domestic content" (US and Canadian content) in the 90+% range, but you are correct...there are NO 100% US-built (or even US/Canadian-built) cars or trucks today.
Tell the kids today about the days when Datsun and Toyota and Honda weren't sold at mega-dealers or when buying a Japanese-branded car was an anomaly and they'll never believe that you're that old! Explain that this was in the "olden times" before AOL and prior MTV. Back when there were FOUR domestic manufacturers. Ancient history.
The joke used to be "Paul McCartney was in a band before Wings?" But how many kids today have even heard of Wings?
What Would George and Abe Say? Automakers Shelve ‘Made in America’ (AutoObserver)
70% yes
28% no
2 % not sure
Seems like that is the prevalent emotion on this issue.
Any dissenters?
The Sequoia is the first Toyota SUV that was designed and built in the U.S. Toyota continues to slant the Sequoia's characteristics toward American needs and tastes, and, it is a first-rate people-hauler.
I guess I would ask would they be less likely to buy from say Hyundai if Hyundai were to pull it's operations from the US, or would they be more likely to buy the Alabama built Hyundai over the Korean built Chevy Aveo as an example.
As Mcdawgg said, there should be a domestic content sticker with your truck stating the vehicle's US/Canadian content. A "domestic" vehicle, by governmental standards, has 75% (I believe that's the level) US/Canadian content...not just 50%. I'm more of a free-market kind of person, but I like the higher ratings of 67% or 75% instead of just 50% for my personal level of "American."
I believe your truck would be well above 50% US/Canadian content.
His latest band was called "Marriage."
They had a hit single called "Paul and Heather, Together Forever," but that dropped off the charts quickly.
Now Heather is pursuing a solo career with a remake of Kanye West's "Gold Digga."
.
Yeah but isn;t the Aveo a pretty good seller? I mean how many Yaris's does Toyota sell?
"5. Chevrolet Uplander: "This dead van walking never fooled anyone with its SUV-wannabe styling on a poorly engineered '90s-era platform."
I think the Uplander is only sold to rental fleets now.
"2. Chrysler Sebring: "A born rental car ... hideous in a deeply bland sort of way."
Boy, one would thought with the release of the 07 Sebring that Chrysler would have rode the momentum the sales success of the 300? Well they didn;t.
Wrong. Retail buyers can buy an Uplander. It's the last GM minivan available, until Chevy introduces their version of the Lambda platform for the '09 model year.
Bill
Hello Lambdas, we're the Pi's
and we're here to say,
We think you are special guys
Lambdas all the way.
Alpha Betas are okay, if you like sweat socks.
We prefer your high IQs to they're great big ..... jocks
Lambda Lambda Lambda boys really are the best.
Won't you take a piece of Pi and we'll do the rest.
.
During that timeframe the Asian suppliers quickily went to the states of Indiana, Ohio, Kentucky Tenn, and other southern localities to establish new supplier operations using handouts from our state treasuries and our federal govt. to build new plants with state of the art eguipment. These new plants were given tax-exempt status for years so that they could help the local communties grow.
The money goes back to Japan to pay all the dislocated workers affected by the move to the USA ---which created unemployment and early retirements on the small island--Approx 1500 suppliers to the domestic transplants are Asian owned.
I don't ever remember the Federal or State govts being benevolent to the big 3..Yes Chrysler was given a Bailout, but Lee repaid it. The only industry that the Federal Govt saved was Harley-Davidson back in the early 80s when the Hog was on the brink of failure--our sweet govt imposed a 5yr tariff on cycles coming from Asia in a certain size or displacement class. Harley survived thanks to our govt..
I spent 32 yrs on the supplier side to the Big 3 and the marine industry and our politicians has made it every difficult for our traditional industries to survive..Spent 2yrs with a Japanese manufacturing facility in Battle Creek, Mich supplying the marine, snowmobile, and auto market as VP Sales/Markerting during 82-84, so I do understand how the business has evolved..
I have owned 43 cars during my driving career, only 2 were not domestic-1958 & 1959 Porsches, great cars bought new in Germany and brought the 59er back to the states--sold it. The other 41 cars were all "Detroit Iron".
Detroit made America "great" and has had a big hand in keeping us "free" during all the war years, so my car dollars will stay with them. I would rarther pay retirement benfits and health costs for the BIG 3, than those costs for the folks in Japan. Honda and Toyota won't have any retirees in the USA for another 20yrs.
The content of the Big 3 has gone from high percentage domestic to foreign content to compete in the marketplace that exists today.
GM got $107 million in incentives just in Flint MI in 1998 for example - that's $152,857 per job. (link). If GM isn't getting more, then they aren't playing the game.
Here's a laundry list of big federal grants for the last couple of years just for job creation. Note the big one for Ardmore Development Authority to help build a plant to make Chinese MGs in Oklahoma - the idea is that 150 jobs will be created to offset the loss of 2100 GM jobs.
I don't really mind the EDA incentives too much - it's the ones that the states and cities give out that really wind up giving the store away. But that's another subject I guess.
Maybe if our government showed as much interest in saving our industrial base as it does sending money down the Iraq rat hole, the Big Three would be in better shape?
I understand how you feel about Detroit. Philadelphia used to be called the "Workshop of the World." Philadelphia was once the home of diverse manufacturers such as Botany 500, Stetson Hat, Baldwin Locomotive, The Budd Company, After Six, Philco, General Electric, Merck, Whitman's Chocolates, etc. As far as I can tell, the only things still manufactured in Philadelphia these days are Tastykakes and crack rocks. Nearby cities had slogans like "Trenton Makes The World Takes" and "What Chester Makes Makes Chester." Well the world took all of Trenton's jobs and nothing is made in Chester nowadays so what does that make Chester?
If we lose jobs under the guise of "free trade" (and I suppose we could argue that phrase for awhile, but bear with me) because our citizens want Toy/Hondas more than GM/Ford, then GM/Ford will suffer in the marketplace and shrink due to lack of demand, and their communities will lose jobs as the factories close...
If newer manufacturers ( not to start a war here, but probably non-union) are willing to come in and build plants to service the Big Guy (the Honda or Toyota plant), it may be in the state's best interest to offer incentives to build the plant...remember, once the plant is built, that new state-of-the-art equipment will sit there for a (presumably) long time, much longer than the tax-free years the plant has been granted (often about 10 years)...meanwhile, the city/county/state may not really lose much on the downside because the original plant that closed will no longer pay (much) property taxes if it is bulldozed to the dirt and there are no payroll taxes or folks earning money if the plant is closed and everyone is laid off...so, as it is, the state has NO BENEFITS from the Big 3 plant (or whatever company it was) that used to be there, so by extending tax breaks to a new plant, they don't really lose much, and eventually the new plant WILL pay those taxes, it is only an abatement for 10 years...
Meanwhile, workers are getting paid to build the plant, renovate the roads and railways, payroll taxes are being paid, workers are being paid to pay their mortgages and support local grocery stores, restaurants and hardware stores, the the economic engine (like it or not, this IS the TRICKLE DOWN EFFECT that Reagan spoke of in the 1980s) really is working, and the local economy can become vibrant again...yes, the county does not receive property taxes for 10 years, but they get a NEW FACTORY with jobs to compensate...then, 10 years from now, they start getting a sudden jolt of propert taxes that will continue for years...
While tax incentives are not a federal constitutional function, it is certainly with the realm of state gov'ts to offer...
And while a direct injection of cash to Harley Davidson from the feds would be wrong, placing tariffs on imported goods (competititors) is absolutely within the power of the fed gov't to do...
Now let's go off topic and mention free trade...when I envisioned free trade, it meant equal access to each other's markets...in reality, it appears that other nations (Japan, China) put up "other barriers" (like endless inspections of each item, rather than spot check as we do) so our products take longer to get into their streams of commerce than theirs do in ours, AND THAT AIN'T FREE TRADE!!!!!
So I have advocated what Pat Buchanan has called for many years, Fair Trade, and it is simple...whatever provisions the Asians (or Europeans or whoever) want in their trade agreements, we just mirror the same provisions for us...and whatever they do to slow down our products into their country, we simply do the exact same thing over here...they could NEVER call it a trade war or a trade restriction, because what is good for the goose is good for the gander...if we do to you what you do to us, how can that be anything but fair???
So, if it takes 60 days for a Jeep to get to a Japanese dealer, then it should take 60 days for any imported Honda, Toyota, Nissan to get to an American dealer...let them watch their products sit in Long Beach for 2 months and watch how fast those Japanese barriers come down...it could happen faster than the speed of light...
I currently own American iron, but I have also owned Hondas and admired their quality and design...I am the first to stand up and talk about how I believe that the UAW has destroyed the basic quality of Big 3 cars over the last 30 years...and I also believe that Japanese carmakers are the SOLE reason that American iron quality is far better today that 1980...
Having said that, I also believe that we should compete on an even playing field, and the Asians have set up the playing field seriously against us in their home countries, and our US Trade Representative should have the guts to negate trade agreements until the provisions are equal and fair...
Anyway, that is why I am in favor of incentives from the states, because you are not comparing apples to apples...if the state was receiving all that property tax and payroll tax and economic vitality from the unemployed workers and the shut-down plant, your argument would be valid...but the state is looking at a local depression without payroll tax, payroll, property tax, and the ripple effect...
Basically, the state, by granting an exemption of property tax ON PROPERTY IT WAS NOT GETTING TAX ON ANYWAY, they draw in all the other economic benefits of the new plant and all of its attendant trickle down effects, so the butcher, the baker, the hardware store, the grocery store, the movie theater, the jeweler, the auto parts store, the auto technician and everybody else now experience the economic effect of 2000 people who now have regular jobs...
I fail to see the downside for a state to offer benefits of tax abatement to a company that seems to be growing, whereas giving those same benefits of abatements to a shrinking compant (Ford/GM) will not assure that the plant will stay open...whenever they close a plant, I am quite sure that the local property tax is never the reason to keep a Big 3 plant open or closed, so an abatement would really be a waste of time for the state...
For whatever reason the Big 3 close plants (unions, management) property tax simply ain't in the top 20 reasons, whereas to lure a plant of a growing company, and also bring in all their supplier vendors on the coattail effect, simply by a tax abatement would seem like a wise and small investment for the potential economic benefits to be reaped...
Further, to belabor the point...giving the abatement to GM may or may not cause them to continue making cars in that plant...
But, from the moment the Asian plant breaks ground with the first shovel, hundreds, if not thousands of jobs may be created overnight, as concrete, tractors, bulldozers, railroad tracks are laid, roadways are expanded, and a 20 miles radius can suddenly become a beehive of activity that may last for years...
What is the downside???...other than if Honda or Toyota goes bankrupt and closes the plant, but, looking at the market as it is today, the Big 3 share is falling like a rock and the gap is being closed by Toy and Honda, who seem to be growing daily, or at least they are a better gamble than GM or Ford...
If I was a Governor, I would rather attract a Honda plant than a Ford plant, sadly, because Ford's future is extremely uncertain, leaning to the
I wonder if this is a trend among most companies offering company vehicles?
Yeah, Chevy has 10 models that get over 30 mpg...but Toy has the rep for quality...
Argue with me all you want, the company has a different opinion, or they would not have opened up the options to include imports...
If we lose jobs under the guise of "free trade" (and I suppose we could argue that phrase for awhile, but bear with me) because our citizens want Toy/Hondas more than GM/Ford, then GM/Ford will suffer in the marketplace and shrink due to lack of demand, and their communities will lose jobs as the factories close...
I have often wondered how many people have "come out of the closet" so to speak (for lack of a better phrase) and have bought cars from the Asian Big 3 primarily because they felt comfortable now knowing that these cars were built here. Toyota is tripping all over itself trying to wrap the Tundra in an American flag in it's ads, and considering their sales, it must have SOME impact on the buying public's feeling to this effect.
As far as tax incentives, I will disagree to a certain extent. Down South, where there was once nothing it sure does make sense to offer incentives to get people in and working. Up here in RI (arguably the birthplace of the industrial revolution) we have to do it just to maintain the status quo, and in some ways we end up losing our tax base that way.
What we end up with is states fighting one another in some sort of economic "civil war" all the while other countries are trying to entice our companies to send our work there. Somehow, I would like to see all 50 of us sticking together to keep the other countries at bay. What bothers me is that, from a workforce point of view, for every 1 of us here, there are like 7 in India and China.
While this may be true, don't forget GM is cutting back on it's fleet sales, which opens up the market to others. The local Enterprise, a longtime GM mainstay for rental cars, has lots of Asian cars for rent on the lot now.
Considering how well they make the imports here, it is 101% proof positive to me that the American work force can be the best...maybe I do have a hangup, but it just seems to me that the folks who make up the UAW have done everything possible to preserve their jobs without making their product any better, except in recent years...
While management is obviously different, it just seems like that workers for Toy/Hon/Nis are grateful to have their jobs and make a good product, while the union seems to have a you-owe-me-a-job mentality and they slap the car together any way they can...am I biased???...I would say so...but Big 3 market share is shrinking, and it isn't because they make the best cars...
I believe we should compete fairly, and if we lose, well, may the best man win...but when the trade rules are stacked against us, I want a level playing field, so the best man (or woman) CAN win...
Like it or not, when I had my 88 Prelude and 88 Legend, I will tell you that, to this day, they were the best designed cars I ever owned...everything was in easy reach and it was just where you thought it would be...it was like someone who actually drove a car designed the driver's compartments for these cars, whereas sometimes it seems that Big 3 cars were designed on a computer so that it would be comfortable for a computer, not a human, to drive it...
Americans need to wake up, or maybe just the union needs to wake up...we CAN do the best work out there, but we are hamstrung by work rules that worked in the 60s, but not now...we OWNED the world in the 60s, 70s, early 80s, but they have caught up and we were sleeping...it seems many folks understand that except those who work in manufacturing, as it is they who must improve their productivity or lose their jobs to those overseas...
Yeah, our productivity has improved, but, frankly, going from an "F" to a "D" simply is not enough...not because Bob says so, I am a nobody...the market is speaking, and it is speaking with such force, anything one may say to respond to me simply makes me say, "Your plant is about to close because they do it more profitably elsewhere, so your reasoning, whatever it is, is wrong"...
We can build refrigerators, washing machines, cars, whatever, but we must be competitive...something must be wrong if they build them elsewhere and, despite the high cost of fuel, it is still cheaper to import them...
One thing it has taught the American worker, and maybe even some Democrats...companies were not established to provide jobs, they were established to provide PROFIT, and when profit disappears, so go the jobs...when profit returns, so will the jobs...that means more manufactured units per worker or the jobs stay elsewhere...cruel???maybe...as Trump would say, "It's nothing personal, it's strictly business"...
Temporary end of rant...but the test will STILL be tomorrow...
As Eddie Murphy once said " Um...that's OK....I'll take the zero"
Anyhow....., unfortunately, in your last paragraph, that becomes a vicious circle. Yes, if the company can't make a profit, it can't pay workers. However, if they try to be unscrupulous and make a profit off the employees backs, or just say "....hey, it's cheaper in China" and try to make a killing, then the employee doesn't have the money to buy the products. So, some sort of balance must be struck.
I hear what you are saying about your Honda products. I had an'88 Buick Regal I bought new and I too liked the styling, thought things were layed out right (but I am used to GM layouts so it took no time to learn the controls) but there were issues w/ the rear calipers seizing. Poor design, plain and simple. Had nothing to do with unscrupulous union workmanship. Not to say it isn't a problem (I remember your story-"....lets see if they can find THIS rattle, heh,heh") That could be enough to turn off anybody trying the product for the first time. I too hear this "slow down, you move too fast" mantra. It's not right. It's not union. IT'S NOT AMERICAN!!!!. But, screw me once, shame on you. Screw me twice, shame on me! Many of my co-workers feel they were betrayed at times, working hard, only to be told your not working hard enough, or when the work dried up, to screw-we don't need you anymore, only to be called back a couple weeks later. Other people want you to slow down because they want the OT to keep rolling their way. Either way, on either side of the coin, it comes down to one thing...Unscrupulous GREED.... and it hurts all our images.
When I mentioned Indian lawyers in the UAW thread, it's not because I hope your clients take their work to them if they had the choice (as many medical patients seem to be doing nowodays). I don't want that. I don't like that. To me it is an insult to you and your hard work in getting that degree and the tens (hundreds??) of thousands you spent getting there. But to me, this is where we are on equal footing in the respect that I think we both DESERVE a fair salary for the job we do.
I wonder if this is a trend among most companies offering company vehicles
Eh, you know how everyone always picks on Ford and GM for fleet sales...well, they stopped doing it so much...now it costs more to rent a car and companies are offering different vehicles in thier fleets.
My average yearly mileage since 1968 was around 60,000/yr, so I spent alot of time pushing the pavement. Most of the cars were sold after 75k to 90k miles with brakes,tires,wheel balance, and suspension the most prevelant problem areas. Engine,trans,a/c,and elec problems were virtually non-existant. I favored the cars with harshest suspension and Buick's sporty suspension was always a farce, but easily cured with performance after-market struts or shocks.
My initial posting "85% foreign content" drew some great comments..The UAW has been beat around and blamed for many of Detroit's ills. I spent 7 years as VP/Opers of plant producing springs and stampings in the heart of the UAW world, some 15 miles south of Flint. Yes, it was a UAW plant-we made money-for we retained the right to run the shop, good pricing and high productivity wins every time.
My stint with the Japanese mfgr in Battle Creek was interesting for the plant was initially 100% Japanese mgt, however after staggering loses they sent everyone but three back to the island, hiring Americans to run the operation.
I have been through the process of the role that our govt had in enticing them to flock to America and dismantle the Big 3 along with destroying the US manufacturing base. They created the "Rust Belt".
Since 1985 I was involved in the Forging and Steel casting industry as a self-employed commisioned rep supplying parts such as forged crankshafts, connecting rods, truck suspension components, and military tank track shoes. My principals were located in Michigan and Canada with main customers in Mich, Ind, Ohio, and Ontario.
Even the Michigan congressional folks---Conyers, Levin, Dingell, and Srabenow have thrown the Big 3 and the UAW "under the bus" for it is more benefical to their careers to cater to the Enviromental whacks with higher gas taxes and the wonderful new mileage edit for 2020 of 35mpg.. No we can't drill for oil or be allowed to help ourselves--grow corn and HOPE FOR CHANGE...
How about the new light bulbs that contain mercury--mandatory in 2012, another winner!!!!
I really do not want to cross into the area of discussing the merits of Big 3 cars versus the other guys for there are other forums which deal with the chatter of praise as well as the panning...
Out of the 43 cars owned ,some were oustanding, and a few rather mediorce, however, I have lived in an era which will never be duplicated in the future. It was a blast filled with opportunity, blessed with lots of freedom to do what struck your fancy.. Government has gotten too oppressive and law crazy.
Love this country----USA all the way.