Far too few people understand the value of a nation possessing its own industrial base. Every ounce of erosion creates a pound of risk, if not peril for the homeland.
cooter: that comment about Indian lawyers, I appreciate what you meant, but I really do have to compete with them and places like legalzoom.com...yes, you can find legal forms all over the internet, and there may be Indian lawyers who will fill out your pleadings and email them across the world to you in the USA...but, unless you enjoy appearing in court, you still need a lawyer like me to appear in court for you...and, rest assured, no US lawyer will appear in court where someone else drafted the forms or the pleadings...or, if we do, the fee would be the same as if we drafted them, so your "Indian friend" will save us time but will not save you money unless you appear on your own...and, if you appear on your own, you were never someone who would have hired me anyway, so I lose nothing...
So, I don't like it either, but it would be severely hypocritical of me to criticize the UAW, or unions in general, telling them to shape up or someone else will do it cheaper, and then go off myself and whine about how unfair it is for legal work to be sent to India at a fee rate 20% of my rate...if competition is good for unions, I must buckle up and do what I can to make myself worth it for clients to come to me...I could never look you in the eye and seriously say that lawyers should be exempt from competition while unions must deal with it...I must be intellectually honest and acknowledge the competition and I must deal with it daily...luckily for me, I really enjoy meeting and dealing with clients (that is why I have no paralegals and I answer my own phone, as I do not use layers of assistants to "insulate" me from my clients, I enjoy the people and I make it easy for them to reach me), and law still maintains that personal touch that I think I possess...you may discuss your bankruptcy with a lawyer in India, but when the emotion hits you and the seriousness of Chapter 7 brings tears to your eyes, I believe I can offer better comfort and solutions than some anonymous lawyer in New Delhi over a VoIP telephone call...:):):):):)
Now, for a simple contract that says I will paint your house for $800.00, or you will clean my basement and I will wash 3 of your cars in return, I don't do those contracts anyway, I would recommend you use an India lawyer for boilerplate stuff that is fill-in-the-blank...
wtd: I am very aware at the risk we face if we lose our industrial and manufacturing base...we can't go buying our B2 bombers from Japan, our F16s from Korea, our Nimitz Carriers from China or our M16s from Taiwan...but the average consumer is caught in a quandary...for the reason just stated, it makes sense to only Buy American, simply to keep our factory base working...but, not to inflame here, when many American believed that Big 3 iron was crap, say for the years from 1970-1995, it becomes very difficult to buy what you think is junk for the second largest purchase most of us ever make...how can a good American justify buying a 1988 Cimarron (truly Cadillac junk) when a 1988 Accord may have been a better buy and better quality???...Yes, each Honda bought brought us one step closer to losing our industrial base, but how can ANYONE justify buying trash simply so Ford/GM can keep running???
For those like me, who place more blame for poor quality on the union than management (poor design may be management, but when things are not screwed together or parts rattle in doors, I blame worthless workers and all the attendant union attitudes I have previously written), why not place the blame for the loss of the manufacturing base squarely where it belongs...right on the shoulder of the workers who make up that base...they squandered any reputation they had for quality and sold us junk and expected us, like sheep, to buy another Big 3 car in 3 years when the imports lasted for 6 years, ran better, got better mileage, and stayed bolted together better... Why couldn't the workers realize that THEY were the ones who pushed people like me to the imports, and that THEY were the true, basic, underlying reason that US manufacturing is going to hell, that their products were simply not worth owning???...
I, as a consumer, want the best car for my hard-earned dollar, and it was my belief that my neighbor was NOT the one who was making that best car (disregard all those folks who think that their Hondas were junk, simply because while their opinions are valid, they have been in the minority for two decades...people aren't going to imports because they are forced to, they buy imports because they WANT to, and they want to because the image is that imports are better cars)...
So, your MACROECONOMIC argument is that we should buy American to save this national industrial base...but the MICROECONOMIC argument is that I don't want to buy crap, and the national industrial base seems capable of only making crap, so I do what is best for me, spending my money the most wisely that I can, buying the best car I can, and that car is probably not GM/Ford/Chrysler...it is the autoworker who must realize that their slipshod workmanship of the last 30 years, their entitlement attitude and their you-owe-me-a-job thinking (job bank) has pushed millions of consumers away from their products and into the arms (and dealers) of the overseas competition...
It is tough to watch the industrial base evaporate...but what result did they expect when they made cars that barely qualified as boat anchors...the workers who make the products MUST wake up...not today, but yesterday...they must give us something that is worth buying and our factory base will flourish...but to blindly Buy American to save my neighbor's job, hooey...my neighbor can go to hell...if my neighbor makes junk, he deserves to lose his job to better competition, as bad as that may be...
If my neighbor had any brains (and I question that with most unions) they would have the burning desire to build a superior product so good that I won't even look at a Lexus, Infiniti or Mercedes because their product was so superior it was simply dripping with quality and oozing with great design...do that, and our factory base will flourish and grow, not because someone forced us to buy a Ford, but because Fords were so good there was a waiting line to get into the dealer showroom...that is how you maintain an industrial base and the economy that goes with it...
I couldn't see myself EVER representing myself in court, even with my DIY mentality. I always come down on the side that my free time is too valuable to waste on projects I deem over my head. There should never be any shame in paying a decent wage for a decent job--EVER. that is what makes the world go 'round.
No doubt, I stick up for unions whenever I can. Many of your neg. comments I've seen for myself. I may not like it, but sometimes I see their point.
I think the bottom line is America's failings can be summed up in one word: GREED.
Unions, w/o knowing what goes on in the boardroom do demand more and more and want it easier and easier.
Upper management takes it out on lower management, and squeeze suppliers for every dime they can w/o knowing the suppliers or lower managers problems. They just want lower costs so they look better. This is why, in addition to products poorly put together, they were put together with poorly designed and mfr'd products.
Stockholders, having no idea how a car is put together, want more (unrealistic?) performance from the stock, and demand board members get the S&%T rolling downhill.
It seems no matter where we look people want more, faster, better, and cheaper. I can't see how this is always possible.
This reminds me of the story about a clock manufacturer. The company had the engineers design and build a prototype of a new clock. They then started removing parts until it stopped working. They were left with a pile of components that were deemed "unnecessary" and were not put into the production model.
I can't remember the end of the story but my guess is that the engineers made a clock that would last forever and the bean-counters "re-designed" it to make it more cheaply. They would end up with a clock that is cheaper in both senses of the word. This has been going on in all aspects of manufacturing, not just cars. My parents have a clothes-washer and dryer set that was made in the 70s and is still going strong because they were built like tanks. I got a new washer and dryer set when I moved into my house in the late 90s. This was not an el cheapo set either. So far the motors in both the washer and dryer have had to be replaced, the washer has a persistent mildew problem, the control board of the dryer was replaced, etc... The last time the repair guy was out he suggested that if something else breaks on them, throw it away and get a new set because they are junk and near the end of the life cycle anyway. So, major appliances are only built to last 10 years or so. I am lucky to get 3 years out of a DVD player. Computer components fry after a couple of years. TVs seem to last half as long as they used to. I have gone through a few satellite receiver boxes ove the last 10 years. They just die after a while.
Sorry about the rant, but things are just not made to last anymore. I am starting to view most things as disposable anymore.
If you would allow yourselves to really evaluate the current automotive market, I do think you might find things to be better for American products than was the case some years ago. And, if you can be very fair about the foreign brand-named vehicles, you might now find them to be rather equivalent to the American brand named vehicles. And in reality, they seem to be all merging into the same products with international parts lists, anyway. But we do need to keep some manufacturing ability in our own country as a hedge against the future.
I will grant you that American quality has improved, and we may be competitive with the imports...however, I believe you fail to take into account one other factor, and that is the IMAGE of quality...I believe many people truly believe that we are still playing catch-up with Japanese makes (while I may be one of them, I will also acknowledge that our quality has been improving, but many out there in the market will NEVER buy another Big 3 product again after being burned in the past...it is THEY that you must convince, not me)...
So, while anyone would say that we must maintain our industrial base, each person feels that if they buy the "better" import, let the "other guy" buy the Big 3 product to maintain our industrial base...after all, how much of the base is lost if just me and my family buys the "better" Honda, 'cuz I want the best value for my money, I can't keep spending my money on Big 3 cars that don't last...
That is the opinion you are fighting, wtd........................................
Chuck: we criticize the "disposable society" but it is the product designers who design things that do not last...I still have the Sears Fridge bought in 1984, runs fine...
we conflict with the price to buy vs the price to repair...when we buy a DVD player, they are made on a line by the millions, and we buy it for $79.00...when it breaks we take it to an individual technician, who rightfully wants $50 to test and diagnose it, another $75 to fix it, and all we have is a used machine that cost $125 to repair, and it is still a used machine with old technology...only a fool would not go out and buy another new machine for $75 with the latest technology...so the old ones fill up the landfills, but seriously, what sane person would spend the $125 to repair an old machine, solely to keep a piece of steel out of a landfill???
Years ago it made sense only because the technology advanced slowly, and new units cost much more than the cost to repair the old one...but now it is reversed...who wants old when new is cheaper???...and better???...
I do agree that it is dumb to even try to repair a $100 DVD player, or anything else for that matter. But, I would expect it to last more than a couple of years. Is that too much to ask for anymore? My dad has a refrigerator that he uses as a storage freezer in the basement that has to be from the 70s or 80s. I can't remember when it wasn't there and I am in my 30s. Do I expect anything that I buy now to last that long? Unfortunately, no I don't. Most appliances and electronics made today will not last as long because they are being manufactured today to be disposable.
Like I said, it's kind of ironic - back in the 60s and 70s people complained about "planned obsolescence" from Detroit. Now cars last longer than ever, but everything else is disposable.
Reading the last several posts has prompted me to recall our recycling opportunities in many parts of the country. I haul those big and little consumer products not to the dump, but to recyclers around the area. Some of the items are purchased by recyclers, while other items are accepted as donations. On principle, I refuse to pay someone to accept the items-- except by way of my paying my household trash haulers.
My wife and I remember when the words "Made in America" meant quality. UNDISPUTED QUALITY, period.
Today, it's a sad warning label like "Made in China."
Keeping the topic on cars (although the industrial base discussion is a good thread), my wife and I have never bought a New American car. Why?
Reliability * Reliability is a two way street. Both Management and Workers must buy into it - and do what it takes to get it done. The Japanese understand this, the Americans, don't. * A lot of union workers take pride in their work - but many view their jobs as entitlements. They refuse to be flexible, they refuse to think, they have an "us vs them" mentality. So there's no buttom up quality improvement there. I know I'll invoke the wrath of unionists, but everyone knows the "it's not my job" mentality is prevalent among the American Plants. * American Automakers like to cut corners, even in vehicular designs. Once you cut those corners on design, no amount of quality workforce can fix it until it is fixed in the design. Period. Americans like to poke fun at heiristic societies like the French (where workers are drones, and management is king), but their inability to listen to their line folks and service departments is what prevents them from improving their vehicles once it ships. * As much as it pains me to say this, American automakers no longer have pride in their work. The Europeans and Japanese take pride in their products - we don't.
Interior / Build Quality * Poor Fit and Finish - American cars are designed and assembled with very LOOSE tolerances. You can use most of the interiors as piggy-banks, since you can easily push quarters into the gaps. The plastic moldings have a lot of flash left over from the compression molding, the buttons just look plain old fashioned. * Inelegant design - Sit in a VW car, and compare it to an American Sedan, and you will know what I mean. The American consoles and buttons look old fashioned, down to the tacky green LED displays. The instrument stalk feels hallow and flimsly. The tactile feel of the buttons are.... cheap. * Although American quality easily meets European reliability, many Americans are flocking to the fresher Euro Styling and plush interiors. * The only automaker as cheap as the American Automakers with their interiors is Nissan. Their stick-on wood grain stickers may peel off, but at least the cars are reliable.
Handling * Germans just know how to make a car fun to drive. The steering wheels are well balanced. The handling is secure, and solid.
I agree with many of the posters here. We lament the dying industrial base that is critical to our country's success. By buying foreign, we too are adding to the trade deficit, but, like most of the recent American elections, we have to chose the lesser of all evils.
Paying thousands of dollars of our hard-earned cash for a crappy product isn't patriotic, it's stupid. If you think welfare is out of control, corporate welfare is a worse sense of false security.
Apparently, I am not alone in this. After years of costly repairs, and countless downtimes, our "Buy American Only" family friend finally broke down and bought a Toyota.
Until the American automakers get their act together, this is only going to get worse. However, even if they do get it together, it will be a long time before they can earn the trust from my family again - let alone our family friend.
"Detroit automakers performed better overall in reliability but only accounted for a quarter of all recommended vehicles in 2008. Ford and GM were singled out for reliability improvements but several older model GM vehicles were described as sub par.
No Chrysler or Ford models made the top picks list and Chrysler had a number of "unimpressive new vehicles." Criticism included noisy, underpowered engines and cramped seating."
The problem for Ford and GM is that the competition didn't sit on their laurels - so any improvements on quality on their part must at least meat or exceed that of the competition.
Another thing I noticed is that Honda and Toyota refresh their lines regularly (every 5 years), while Ford and GM tend to refresh less often. When they invariably get a "hit" seller, they don't bother re-investing into the platform to keep it fresh and current - preferring to bleed the cash cow dry before terminating the line.
* American Automakers like to cut corners, even in vehicular designs. Once you cut those corners on design, no amount of quality workforce can fix it until it is fixed in the design. Period. Americans like to poke fun at heiristic societies like the French (where workers are drones, and management is king), but their inability to listen to their line folks and service departments is what prevents them from improving their vehicles once it ships.
90% of Ford models were rated Average or better. GMs newer models were rated Average or better.
Poor Fit and Finish - American cars are designed and assembled with very LOOSE tolerances.
I just don't see this being the case anymore. GM and Ford both benchmark Lexus and others for interior craftsmanship (there is a story of Lutz walking through Lexi with vice presidents and pointing out differences).
* Inelegant design - Sit in a VW car, and compare it to an American Sedan, and you will know what I mean. The American consoles and buttons look old fashioned, down to the tacky green LED displays. The instrument stalk feels hallow and flimsly. The tactile feel of the buttons are.... cheap.
Is there a domestic vehicle you are using for this comparison? Benchmarking at NAIAS showed things were pretty even in the switch category. Push efforts, travel, and engagement are within the error range of measurement at the show.
The VW/Europeans use red on black for LED displays, which can increase eye fatigue at night. Green on black is one of the highest contrasts you can have (remember monochrome monitors...green on black). It seems like the current trend is towards softer colors overall.
* Germans just know how to make a car fun to drive. The steering wheels are well balanced. The handling is secure, and solid.
I think that has been more true in the past. I think the pinnacle of automotive development was the E36 M3 sedan. I think with the introduction of iDrive, internet browsing in your car, 40 cup holders, etc, the suckiness is about even.
I agree with every comment you made up until about 1995 or 1996. I think the 80s were a very bleak time for US automakers and it took them most of the 90s to figure it out, but with few exceptions, I think Ford and GM have had a successful run in the new millennium.
The Japanese are moving targets, not staionary targets, so while we improve our quality, they are improving theirs...
I believe the japanese word is "kaizen"...constant, ever incremental improvements, whether it be a better screw, more efficient handle, or tactile feel...
One day the union will wake up and realize they are really competing against some heavy competition, not some fly-by-nights like the Datsuns of the 1970s, or the Sony radios of the 1960s...for all the jobs they have lost, I still question whether they really "get it" since they want to strike whenever they can, and they make themselves look like fools...oh, they may get some higher wages, but then another 10% of them lose their jobs, but the union calls it a victory...
I guess the ultimate victory will be when the union worker earns $1 million per year, too bad there will only be ONE worker left...
One day the union will wake up and realize they are really competing against some heavy competition, not some fly-by-nights like the Datsuns of the 1970s, or the Sony radios of the 1960s...for all the jobs they have lost, I still question whether they really "get it" since they want to strike whenever they can, and they make themselves look like fools...oh, they may get some higher wages, but then another 10% of them lose their jobs, but the union calls it a victory...
I think in the last few years, the UAW has realized the seriousness of the situation and has been much more interested in working with the domestic manufacturers and Chrysler (which I guess is domestic again?) to develop a sustainable future.
I think realizing that there were more players, smaller market share, and a slightly shrinking overall market helped the unions sort through some things. The group that has a steep learning curve is the tier 1 and tier 2 suppliers.
I don't ever remember the Federal or State govts being benevolent to the big 3..
Your rose-colored glasses aside, US government agencies are equally generous to ANYONE who wants to generated jobs. As pointed out above, EVERYONE gets tax incentives to build new factories or open new offices...GM, Chrysler, and Ford have even been given money and/or tax incentives just to maintain the status quo (and not move offices or factories, even within the US).
As for Harley-Davidson being singled out for federal aid, that's not entirely true.
In the early 1960s, the United States and Europe had a spat over trade and the US retaliated by imposing taxes on things European including furs and trucks. The tax, dubbed the "chicken tax" because of the argument over frozen chickens, has been completely abolished over the last 40 years...except for the truck part.
Cars imported into the US get a 2.5% tariff while trucks are covered by a 25% tariff. Have you noticed how few trucks are imported and just how many are built in the US with Japanese brand names? And this tax has been going on for over four and a half decades!
There's also CAFE which encourages domestic production of cars by averaging imported vehicles separately from domestic vehicles.
Of course, the US has done no wrong to Europe. Whatever could I be thinking. Birthrates dropped off the face of the planet after Europe was rebuilt in an American ideal simply as a matter of coincidence. That must be it. And the desire of leadership to submit to an immigration invasion certainly has nothing to do with being made to feel guilty about the past.
It takes money to make money. I don't mean the "elite" as in American royalty such as the Kennedy (or Bush) clan, but in more of a self-titled definition. Those types aren't people I see in my daily life, but I do see many born into well-to-do situations that are anything but cynical, because they have little to worry about when it comes to a roof or an income. It's like they say, those who claim money doesn't buy happiness have never had money.
lilengineerboy: 90% of Ford models were rated Average or better. GMs newer models were rated Average or better.
The domestics are still coming from behind (in the overall rankings, they are still below the best of the Asians), and that won't be enough to give them what they really need - conquest customers.
The improvements in ratings will encourage loyalists to stay with GM and Ford, which is certainly a good thing. But GM and Ford need to conquest Honda and Toyota customers, and, "We're getting better and almost as good as the leaders", just won't cut it.
The interesting thing I note is that GM appears to have the better designs with its new models, but reliability is still somewhat uneven throughout the lineup (and even among some of the new models). Ford has done a better job of making consistent quality improvements across the board, but some of its new models are lackluster in the design department. Chrysler, well...
Another problem is that many people are failing to distinguish among individual companies, and lumping GM, Ford and Chrysler under the "domestics," and the innocent get punished along with the guilty.
Example - my wife's cousin recently completed nursing school. She had a 2002 Dodge Stratus with a little over 100,000 miles. She NEEDED a new car (not merely wanted one), because the Dodge was basically worn out. It had been very troublesome from about 40,000 miles.
She bought a Nissan Rogue, partly because, in her words, "I didn't want any domestics after that Dodge." Her parents, incidentally, live on a farm and drive Ford and Chevy trucks and have a Chrysler Concorde, so she wasn't raised around foreign nameplates.
We explained that not all domestics are the same, and that our 2005 Focus has been reliable so far (60,000+ miles), but she didn't want to hear it.
The world changes, my friend. If we as Americans were still making the best products and they were as affordable as the poor quality comparables, then that would be great.
The domestics are still coming from behind (in the overall rankings, they are still below the best of the Asians), and that won't be enough to give them what they really need - conquest customers.
In terms of quality only, I wonder, because if they put out appealing products that are somewhat on par with their Japanese counterparts (re; Malibu) in terms of quality, yet are somewhat or clearly superior in terms of styling and sportiness then I think people will start to take notice. It won't happen overnite, but we'll see if the turnaround is in full swing w/in a couple or 3 yrs.
The reason I believe this is because for several years now, reports seem to suggest that American mfr's quality is gaining , whereas the European makes are slipping, yet the Europeans seem to still sell good amounts of cars based on their sporty styling.
It's funny, but the perception seems to be that BOTH the Europeans and the Japanese brands fly high, yet American brands that are better than both at some things (NOT ALL) generally regarded as lousy.
I think somebody got to your wife's cousin. If she has bad luck with her Rogue, I somehow doubt she'll swear off ALL Japanese brands. For someone to have bad luck with ONE car from ONE domestic brand and then swear them ALL off altogether seems pretty narrow minded (unless she had problems with her parent's cars growing up that isn't mentioned in your post).
cooterbfd: In terms of quality only, I wonder, because if they put out appealing products that are somewhat on par with their Japanese counterparts (re; Malibu) in terms of quality, yet are somewhat or clearly superior in terms of styling and sportiness then I think people will start to take notice.
I don't know if the domestics are necessarily ahead on sportiness. Compared to Toyotas, sure, as Toyotas are very conservative in design and performance.
But I don't see a GM product, for example, that compares well with a Civic Si or the Accord V-6 six speed (the Corvette doesn't count - I mean a GM vehicle with a comparable price tag, size and seating configuration).
cooterbfd: It's funny, but the perception seems to be that BOTH the Europeans and the Japanese brands fly high, yet American brands that are better than both at some things (NOT ALL) generally regarded as lousy.
I would have to disagree regarding the European brands. Many people are wary of them (particularly VW) and avoid them. What sells them is style, build quality (they do use good materials, particularly on the interiors) and performance. But a high percentage of drivers lease those cars, because they don't want to own them when the warranty ends.
cooterbfd: I think somebody got to your wife's cousin.
Somebody sure did - the people at DaimlerChrysler who engineered, designed and built her Stratus.
cooterbfd: If she has bad luck with her Rogue, I somehow doubt she'll swear off ALL Japanese brands. For someone to have bad luck with ONE car from ONE domestic brand and then swear them ALL off altogether seems pretty narrow minded (unless she had problems with her parent's cars growing up that isn't mentioned in your post).
No, it shows how pervasive the "domestics build garbage" meme really is (let's face it - that was true for too long), and how much effort and time it will take to overcome it. She didn't want to wade through reliability reports and reviews, so she went with "Japanese good, domestic bad."
She could get burned (I think she would have been better off with a Toyota or Honda if she wanted to buy Japanese), but, for many years, a buyer was less likely to get burned by a Japanese vehicle than by a domestic one. So, for her, that method of choosing a new vehicle worked. If Ford and GM keep improving their vehicles, and the results show up in Consumer Reports surveys, I'm sure that she will change her thinking.
Not everyone follows cars like we do, nor do they have any obligation to. Nor do they have an obligation to even check out a Ford, GM or Chrysler product when buying a new vehicle. That's the reality of the new vehicle market in 2008.
But I don't see a GM product, for example, that compares well with a Civic Si or the Accord V-6 six speed (the Corvette doesn't count - I mean a GM vehicle with a comparable price tag, size and seating configuration).
I suppose when I think of this I'm talking about the Malibu and to a certain extent the Aura. So no, GM doesn't, unless we are talking about the Cobalt SS or Sport (or whatever) but that pushes into $21-24K and thats MId-sized sedan territory, so that is out of the equation for the Civic. I suppose you could talk about the new Focus as the closest thing.
As far as the Accord, I assume you mean 6 sp. man., not auto. I guess GM's response would be not enough customers to warrant offering it, but with so many suppliers out there offering manual gearboxes, yoou would think they'd be able to find one that would justify it.
As far as leasing (Europes), I see ad's all day long for Accords for $108/mon. for 42 months, w/20% down. I'm sure that can get people in and keep them in.
But I don't see a GM product, for example, that compares well with a Civic Si or the Accord V-6 six speed (the Corvette doesn't count - I mean a GM vehicle with a comparable price tag, size and seating configuration).
The Civic SI is kind of a niche model although I understand your desire for sportiness. That is about a 20k vehicle. You could get a pretty wired up Astra which would compete with the LX or EX, but I can't think of anything from Ford or GM that competes with the Civic SI.
The Accord V6 6 speed sedan is gone. If you count the coupe, the same money would have gotten you a Pontiac GTO. Comparing the sedan to the sedan, a Saab 9-3, 9-5 or Pontiac G8 (rwd and a big V8) would also be in that range. Or a Mustang. Or a 300C or Dodge Challenger. 4 cylinder Camry money will get you a Hemi if that is what you are after.
I understand the frustration with lack of choices though. Finding a manual transmission wagon from any manufacturer is a PITA, in fact, finding a wagon at all is challenging. Someone decided I needed this high up monstrosity to transport a wife and infant and I just can't go for that.
Free trade isn't free-like universal health care isn't free. The Asian fellows never intended to buy parts from the established Big 3 suppliers, they offered "lip service" while their govt and our govt pumped money into establishing them as a low cost producer to fight inflation, create additional employment, and eliminate slapping tariffs and taxes on imports..Aren't we nice people.
With 50% of the sales volume now going to the transplants, Detroit can't downsize quick enough to stop the bleeding... Ford and Chrysler are in desperate shape with GM struggling to reconfigure their lineup--and only making money throught their overseas sales..
Enter the hoax of "Climate Change", "Treehuggers", and "Green Machines", now the fun begins. Oil is the "Economic Engine" of our country, but we cannot drill or refine to help ourselves, so we are on the brink of a depression, we are in a recession big time. Who would you like to blame??????? George,Maybe???? It's popular and handy!!!!
Folks---it's all political and just follow the money.....It's deeper than Fit&Finish of automotive assemblies.
We won the war--remember---lost the economic battle though!!!!
Homes are being sold in Michigan for as little as 25 cents on the dollar. After the bank has foreclosed on a property and that property stays in their inventory for six months---it is broomed for peanuts.. Our Congress thought it was everybody's right to own a home---enter subprime mortgages and bang! disaster!!! Credit cards and car loans next to fail..
I hold a land contract on 60 acres located on an Interstate exchange north of Detroit that went through a "Sheriff's Sale" on 2/1/08. I bought the land back and will have to wait until 8/1/08 or six months to resell the property. In Florida the redemption period is two weeks and Michigan is six months---all politics. This land was sold initally to a large developer with 1100 lots in Michigan-10 subdivisons, land in Arkansas-4 subdivisions, Arizona,Florida, and Nevada. They either redeem the land by paying me all monies owed by 8/1/08 or I get the land back. Deficiency judgement will prevail in the end--I am hoping they go into bankruptcy for I can't forsee any payment..I also own another 20 acres of great residential property which will be stuck in inventory for another 10 yrs.
In 74 yrs, I seen a few recessions and the housing industry in conjunction with the Big3 along with our past industrial base pulled the country out of the doldrums allowing us to rock and roll again..Don't depend on Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai or any other foreign entity to return this country to prosperity, for they ship their money back to the mainland. China is a big problem.
DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT OUR RECESSION OR COMING DEPRESSION IF YOU DRIVE A FORIEIGN CAR--85% FOREIGN CONTENT[ TOYOTA/HONDA] OR A LEXUS, MERCEDES,VW,AUDI, INFINITI,BMW,PORSCHE WHICH ARE 100% FOREIGN CONTENT...I know that a few Mercedes and BMWs are built in the USA. Peanuts-BABY.
You can admire the FIT&FINISH and superb quality standing in the line at your state umemployment office..
If we by chance have to go to war, do you think the transplant geniuses will supply us with tanks, guns, and armament???????? I don't think so-BABY!!!!!
I apologiize for the ranting but our educational industry and a few politicians have sold this country down the drain to a third world status..
I will pick up my new Mustang GT in six more weeks, good old V-8 power, lovely noise--solid rear axle, NO FANCY INDEPENDENT REAR SUSPENSION--low tech, however we drive on straight roads 99% of the time don't we???? Leave the fancy stuff for the big buck cars..This Mustang will join my 06 Pontiac GPGT-V6SC, not a great car but only paid $17000 w/4300mi-MSRP $30250.
Homes are being sold in Michigan for as little as 25 cents on the dollar. After the bank has foreclosed on a property and that property stays in their inventory for six months-
This looks like a ray of hope for Detroit.
Metro home sales up by 15% Detroit leads gains with almost double amount of closings over same period last year. Louis Aguilar / The Detroit News
Sales of residential and condominium units in Detroit nearly doubled in January, compared with the same month a year ago, and the region overall got a nearly 15 percent bump, according to real estate data firm Realcomp.
The city of Detroit led the gainers, posting a 45.5 percent increase in the month, with 736 closings.
Seven Realtors who deal primarily in downtown Detroit area property said they have enjoyed some of their recent best sale months in December and January. Sales of houses and condominiums in Detroit jumped by a 33.9 percent in December 2007, compared to December 2006. No other market in the Metro Detroit area came close to that kind of increase last year, according to Realcomp.
Sales of residential and condominium units in Detroit nearly doubled in January, compared with the same month a year ago, and the region overall got a nearly 15 percent bump, according to real estate data firm Realcomp.
Yeah they are turning a lot of the old buildings into flats and condos and trying to put them close to nightlife areas. It is a draw for young, professional folks to move downtown. Local radio stations (and NPR) did stories on it during "Winter Blast," which is this festival thing they have in the middle of winter downtown in the D. It would bug me personally to live in a town with no grocery store and have to pay a tax to support the mayor's legal troubles, but I could also see it being fun to live in a city.
Regardless of one's stand on cars and unions, it is a citizen's right, no, his duty and moral obligation, to get the best price...
and, if one can buy used, or end of model year sales, or rebates, it would be foolish to pay MSRP...that was the way even in the heydays of the union, before Honda was even a carmaker...
Regardless of one's stand on cars and unions, it is a citizen's right, no, his duty and moral obligation, to get the best price...
and, if one can buy used, or end of model year sales, or rebates, it would be foolish to pay MSRP...that was the way even in the heydays of the union, before Honda was even a carmaker...
And it applies to Honda as well. My Accord EX was $4500 under msrp and a couple thousand under invoice. Its a perfectly acceptable vehicle, although just as bland and indistinguishable as anything else out there. If you make a commodity product, you get commodity rates.
That applies to all vehicle purchases. I would not be driving this Sequoia if not for the massive discount. Even at $10k under MSRP I feel it was over priced considering the lousy substandard electronics Toyota uses. GM is far ahead on radio/CD/sound systems. Have not used any GM NAV units so cannot say.
Once the car is at the dealer the worker that built it is already paid. To me anything over invoice is money down the old toilet.
Motorcity6 : Nothing there to shred, from my point of view in U.K. We've been through all of that already and we've only just finished paying you guys for WWII, (really !!).
America's CEO's, like U.K.'s CEO's have sold the farm and all the stock and kit so now we rely on inward investment and huge amounts of money being trundled around the London money market. Not really my formula for future well-being.
China is a huge potential threat to us all, (as is India), but that's the way it is - the British Empire was a major control mechanism and cash generator and now it's someone else's turn. America has not been without its Imperialist tendencies and was highly instrumental in "waking up" China as it saw that region as a major cash-cow. Looks like the cow has teeth, an enormous appetite and little in the way of conscience. However, Europe may yet prove to be an irritant to you. We have a large internal market, a largely non-unionised workforce, great design ability and old fashioned smarts. Hey, that's another whole topic. Sorry.
Not even going to start on the whole "Green" thing; just another set of excuses to raise taxes and limit freedoms.
Next 20 years will doubtless be interesting. May we both be around to see it.
China is a huge potential threat to us all, (as is India)
Interesting twist on "Outsourcing". I was having lunch with a friend that is a manager of tech support for an HP company. He said a lot of the outsourcing to India is being sublet back to small companies in the USA. I am sure it has to do with finding people that can communicate with those seeking technical assistance. So HP pays a company in India to handle tech support. They hire a company in the USA to do the actual work. HP does not have the burden of employees to deal with. American workers are still some of the best in the World. We don't need long vacations and a lot of holidays like the Germans. For the most part we do speak a form of English :shades:
I still cannot figure out why you folks pay more for a Jaguar built in the UK than we do. Beautiful cars. I have always liked them. If you ever send us a diesel Range Rover I will sell this Sequoia.
"DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT OUR RECESSION OR COMING DEPRESSION IF YOU DRIVE A FORIEIGN CAR."
I'm not going to "shred" your post, but I have to ask how "USA" is it to move a car factory to Mexico? I mean, don't the auto makers have some obligation to this country, too?
They wave the flag and tell us to buy their products, while they refuse to pay U.S. workers to build them. Meanwhile, Honda, Toyota and BMW have no problem building factories here, and staffing them with U.S. workers.
I won't buy a foreign-built car just because it has an American logo on it. And I won't refuse to buy a well-built car just because it's built with foreign parts.
Sacrificing quality for propoganda is un-American. .
HP has been "outsourcing" workers in the US for years. Adecco, Manpower and the other "temp" staffing outfits have a big presence here in Boise and they provide a lot of contract tech labor for HP. 3000 of them sued HP back in 2005 in one of those permatemp lawsuits but I never heard how it turned out.
I suspect HP saves a bundle on benefits even if the local contract workforce costs substantially more than their offshore workers.
Corporations have loyalty to their shareholders, not the country where they were founded. It's all about the money. And if I own Ford stock, and Ford decides to pull up stakes and move to Australia and concentrate on their Holden and Falcon brands, and the stock doubles in six months, do I really care that they left Dearborn?
It is all about the money, and the perceived value of the stock. Sadly the American working man is not considered in the equation. I think IBM was the last major company that gave in to that kind of thinking.
And both the USA and Europe have some sharp demographic changes to endure...a topic which is usually taboo thanks to the thought police of the past couple decades. I wonder if riot insurance will be common on the continent...although it would be a stupid thing to issue...as it will be used. 200 years worth of immigration in a single generation...brilliant idea...
Trucks are volume items and lots of profit involved and we now have all these island folks producing their own versions of a Detroit mainstay..Toyotas are doing well on the Nascar Truck circuit. They will probably win today's 400 miler-UAW-Dodge 400 with a Camary..
The Toyota hierarchy will swear that their engineering experts are staying away from tweaking their racing products, only fools would believe them. I have been there and watched, for they will spend money and buy influence whenever they are not being watched.
The truck tariff only delayed their arrival--for the big pickups aren't used in Japan.. They are somewhat larger than rickshaws.....
Although I have never purchased a South Korean made vehicle, I find my interest really increasing. American vehicle buyers can probably get some really good deals, while the maturing Japanese offerings take the financial heat.
Short Sales, Bank foreclosures, and pricing which reflects usually a 40% decrease from listing prices.
My son has been a broker since 1983 in the areas bordering Detroit, northeast of the decayed city proper and sales have slowed to a crawl. Only action is short sales and foreclosures. His normal personal volume is around 5MM to 10MM annually maybe hit 2MM this year..if he is lucky..
I read the same article in the Sarasota Times-Herald--owned by the New York Times.. I live in Venice, Fl..
My daughter lives in Venice and has been involved in real estate market here since 2000. They flipped six properties and did very well with gains of 100% in half of the deals with 50% on the balance..Totally out of the market now--just closed on their original home purchase in Feb 08, waited too long only doubled their money.
The real estate market in Fla will probably take 5-7yrs to regain any steam. In Michigan just go back to 1990 pricing..
Independent rear susp big selling feature is handling and the solid rear axle on a Mustang GT does the job cheaply, however eliminates all the expense of replacing the myraid of assemblies used in the IRS system. Ever notice an old BMW or Mercedes where the rear wheels appear to be canted outward, trying to run on the sidewalls---very expensive fix..just keep buying tires--much cheaper.
Mustangs are very simple--lovely runner.
Now to my used Pontiac which I purchased in May 2007 from the local Caddy dealer, and traded in my 2002 Olds Intrigue w/119,500 mi..which I had purchased new in Nov. 2002., got a neat deal on the trade, the Intrigue went right to the auction block the next day.
That was my third Intrigue--all bought new--first one was a loaded GLS 1998 which was repurchased by GM after 26,000 mi costing me $650 to own, took their check and added $800 and bought a 1999 GLS loaded piling on 75,000 miles and traded it in on the final 2002 Intrigue. Super cars--3.5 4valve, alum blocked V-6 was a champ--loved the road.
Back to my 06 GPGT SC V-6, 4300 miles, loaded, cheap price, caddy tradein and I love to negotiate..No I wouldn't have been dumb enough to buy it new--no resale market for this model but I could care less about what I get for it in the future..
The pricing on new cars is set--no room--no slop..My Mustang is being priced at invoice less rebates---no big deal. It will never be sold during my lifetime. Out of the 43 cars owned in my life I have never had a Mustang. They are a little tinny and not the best fit and finish-who cares.
My favorite ride for 90,000 miles was a new 71SS350 Camaro, company car-bought new for 3000 and was sold for 2000 eighteen months later..Good deal. Bought the wife an 82 Z-28 new, but it was a looker and not a mover, Had a 66 Cuda-new-finally broomed it after 90000 miles.. The rest of my cars were on the saner side-sizewise.
I try to buy new to help Detroit---pass the Word...
Ever notice an old BMW or Mercedes where the rear wheels appear to be canted outward, trying to run on the sidewalls---very expensive fix..just keep buying tires--much cheaper.
Thats just lower control arm bushings, just like on any other vehicle. Not only is it not cheaper to keep buying tires, its an unsafe condition.
The rear lower control arms for an E36 BMW are cheaper then the hub/ABS sensor unit for that Intrigue.
That Mustang, old Camaro, Jeep, Tahoe, Explorer with a solid rear axle is fine so long as the roads are glass smooth and you only need to go straight. The Mustang Cobra had a very elaborate IRS if memory serves. Ditto "America's Supercar" the Corvette. While the C4 was pretty much a POS, the C5+ offers amazing performance per dollar.
"They wave the flag and tell us to buy their products, while they refuse to pay U.S. workers to build them. Meanwhile, Honda, Toyota and BMW have no problem building factories here, and staffing them with U.S. workers"...aside from BMW, I believe, there are no unionized plants with Honda, Toyota or Nissan...THAT, to me, is the major difference...even if the pay is comparable, and I don't know if it is, the WORK RULES and restrictive job classifications simply do not exist as they do in UAW plants...so, if a windshield worker is needed in the cylinder head dept, they just move him/her over, whereas in a union plant they must "create" a new job that really is not necessary...
So, a nonunionized plant will always run more efficiently because you need fewer workers to get the job done...
Until the Big 3 eliminate ALL work restrictions, they cannot and will not be fully competitive...it is as simple as that...so, when you remove all the anti-business and anti-common-sense rules of the union, employing American workers is really a smart thing to do...
The simple solution is for the Big 3 to collectively declare Chapter 11 bankruptcy, void their union contracts, and start the hiring process all over again...anyone who has been a problem should be discarded and sent to WalMart as a greeter...
Business is cruel, and the Big 3 have started to open their eyes, but until they destroy union work rules, they are still at a competitive disadvantage, even with their VEBAs...
The only worthwhile thing a solid rear axle does on a car is to keep the back end from falling on the ground. The improved handling from an IRS is more than worth the larger parts list.
If you think that getting rid of union contracts is the answer, you are truly living in the Japanese controlled media fantasyland. You don't have a clue.
Oh, sometimes I wish I was born 50 years earlier so I could be dead before I saw my city and country decline to such a dismal state. I don't even want children for I fear what kind of future they'd be facing in a deindustrialized, bankrupt, crime-ridden, and violent America.
Anyway, on a lighter note, good luck with your new Mustang GT! I'm the proud owner of a black 2007 Cadillac DTS Performance I bought last November. I also have a 1989 Cadillac Brougham and a 1988 Buick Park Avenue. My girlfriend has a 2005 Buick LaCrosse she purchased new three years ago. Not all hope is lost. Here's another guy who absolutely loves Detroit iron!
Comments
So, I don't like it either, but it would be severely hypocritical of me to criticize the UAW, or unions in general, telling them to shape up or someone else will do it cheaper, and then go off myself and whine about how unfair it is for legal work to be sent to India at a fee rate 20% of my rate...if competition is good for unions, I must buckle up and do what I can to make myself worth it for clients to come to me...I could never look you in the eye and seriously say that lawyers should be exempt from competition while unions must deal with it...I must be intellectually honest and acknowledge the competition and I must deal with it daily...luckily for me, I really enjoy meeting and dealing with clients (that is why I have no paralegals and I answer my own phone, as I do not use layers of assistants to "insulate" me from my clients, I enjoy the people and I make it easy for them to reach me), and law still maintains that personal touch that I think I possess...you may discuss your bankruptcy with a lawyer in India, but when the emotion hits you and the seriousness of Chapter 7 brings tears to your eyes, I believe I can offer better comfort and solutions than some anonymous lawyer in New Delhi over a VoIP telephone call...:):):):):)
Now, for a simple contract that says I will paint your house for $800.00, or you will clean my basement and I will wash 3 of your cars in return, I don't do those contracts anyway, I would recommend you use an India lawyer for boilerplate stuff that is fill-in-the-blank...
wtd: I am very aware at the risk we face if we lose our industrial and manufacturing base...we can't go buying our B2 bombers from Japan, our F16s from Korea, our Nimitz Carriers from China or our M16s from Taiwan...but the average consumer is caught in a quandary...for the reason just stated, it makes sense to only Buy American, simply to keep our factory base working...but, not to inflame here, when many American believed that Big 3 iron was crap, say for the years from 1970-1995, it becomes very difficult to buy what you think is junk for the second largest purchase most of us ever make...how can a good American justify buying a 1988 Cimarron (truly Cadillac junk) when a 1988 Accord may have been a better buy and better quality???...Yes, each Honda bought brought us one step closer to losing our industrial base, but how can ANYONE justify buying trash simply so Ford/GM can keep running???
For those like me, who place more blame for poor quality on the union than management (poor design may be management, but when things are not screwed together or parts rattle in doors, I blame worthless workers and all the attendant union attitudes I have previously written), why not place the blame for the loss of the manufacturing base squarely where it belongs...right on the shoulder of the workers who make up that base...they squandered any reputation they had for quality and sold us junk and expected us, like sheep, to buy another Big 3 car in 3 years when the imports lasted for 6 years, ran better, got better mileage, and stayed bolted together better...
Why couldn't the workers realize that THEY were the ones who pushed people like me to the imports, and that THEY were the true, basic, underlying reason that US manufacturing is going to hell, that their products were simply not worth owning???...
I, as a consumer, want the best car for my hard-earned dollar, and it was my belief that my neighbor was NOT the one who was making that best car (disregard all those folks who think that their Hondas were junk, simply because while their opinions are valid, they have been in the minority for two decades...people aren't going to imports because they are forced to, they buy imports because they WANT to, and they want to because the image is that imports are better cars)...
So, your MACROECONOMIC argument is that we should buy American to save this national industrial base...but the MICROECONOMIC argument is that I don't want to buy crap, and the national industrial base seems capable of only making crap, so I do what is best for me, spending my money the most wisely that I can, buying the best car I can, and that car is probably not GM/Ford/Chrysler...it is the autoworker who must realize that their slipshod workmanship of the last 30 years, their entitlement attitude and their you-owe-me-a-job thinking (job bank) has pushed millions of consumers away from their products and into the arms (and dealers) of the overseas competition...
It is tough to watch the industrial base evaporate...but what result did they expect when they made cars that barely qualified as boat anchors...the workers who make the products MUST wake up...not today, but yesterday...they must give us something that is worth buying and our factory base will flourish...but to blindly Buy American to save my neighbor's job, hooey...my neighbor can go to hell...if my neighbor makes junk, he deserves to lose his job to better competition, as bad as that may be...
If my neighbor had any brains (and I question that with most unions) they would have the burning desire to build a superior product so good that I won't even look at a Lexus, Infiniti or Mercedes because their product was so superior it was simply dripping with quality and oozing with great design...do that, and our factory base will flourish and grow, not because someone forced us to buy a Ford, but because Fords were so good there was a waiting line to get into the dealer showroom...that is how you maintain an industrial base and the economy that goes with it...
I couldn't see myself EVER representing myself in court, even with my DIY mentality. I always come down on the side that my free time is too valuable to waste on projects I deem over my head. There should never be any shame in paying a decent wage for a decent job--EVER. that is what makes the world go 'round.
No doubt, I stick up for unions whenever I can. Many of your neg. comments I've seen for myself. I may not like it, but sometimes I see their point.
I think the bottom line is America's failings can be summed up in one word: GREED.
Unions, w/o knowing what goes on in the boardroom do demand more and more and want it easier and easier.
Upper management takes it out on lower management, and squeeze suppliers for every dime they can w/o knowing the suppliers or lower managers problems. They just want lower costs so they look better. This is why, in addition to products poorly put together, they were put together with poorly designed and mfr'd products.
Stockholders, having no idea how a car is put together, want more (unrealistic?) performance from the stock, and demand board members get the S&%T rolling downhill.
It seems no matter where we look people want more, faster, better, and cheaper.
I can't see how this is always possible.
I can't remember the end of the story but my guess is that the engineers made a clock that would last forever and the bean-counters "re-designed" it to make it more cheaply. They would end up with a clock that is cheaper in both senses of the word. This has been going on in all aspects of manufacturing, not just cars. My parents have a clothes-washer and dryer set that was made in the 70s and is still going strong because they were built like tanks. I got a new washer and dryer set when I moved into my house in the late 90s. This was not an el cheapo set either. So far the motors in both the washer and dryer have had to be replaced, the washer has a persistent mildew problem, the control board of the dryer was replaced, etc... The last time the repair guy was out he suggested that if something else breaks on them, throw it away and get a new set because they are junk and near the end of the life cycle anyway. So, major appliances are only built to last 10 years or so. I am lucky to get 3 years out of a DVD player. Computer components fry after a couple of years. TVs seem to last half as long as they used to. I have gone through a few satellite receiver boxes ove the last 10 years. They just die after a while.
Sorry about the rant, but things are just not made to last anymore. I am starting to view most things as disposable anymore.
I agree - it's ironic - cars last longer today than before, but everything else doesn't.
So, while anyone would say that we must maintain our industrial base, each person feels that if they buy the "better" import, let the "other guy" buy the Big 3 product to maintain our industrial base...after all, how much of the base is lost if just me and my family buys the "better" Honda, 'cuz I want the best value for my money, I can't keep spending my money on Big 3 cars that don't last...
That is the opinion you are fighting, wtd........................................
Chuck: we criticize the "disposable society" but it is the product designers who design things that do not last...I still have the Sears Fridge bought in 1984, runs fine...
we conflict with the price to buy vs the price to repair...when we buy a DVD player, they are made on a line by the millions, and we buy it for $79.00...when it breaks we take it to an individual technician, who rightfully wants $50 to test and diagnose it, another $75 to fix it, and all we have is a used machine that cost $125 to repair, and it is still a used machine with old technology...only a fool would not go out and buy another new machine for $75 with the latest technology...so the old ones fill up the landfills, but seriously, what sane person would spend the $125 to repair an old machine, solely to keep a piece of steel out of a landfill???
Years ago it made sense only because the technology advanced slowly, and new units cost much more than the cost to repair the old one...but now it is reversed...who wants old when new is cheaper???...and better???...
Sort of like driving a 1970 gas hog that only gets 12 miles to the gallon.
hmmm, not much has changed eh?
(dupes removed Bob, no charge :shades: )
Today, it's a sad warning label like "Made in China."
Keeping the topic on cars (although the industrial base discussion is a good thread), my wife and I have never bought a New American car. Why?
Reliability
* Reliability is a two way street. Both Management and Workers must buy into it - and do what it takes to get it done. The Japanese understand this, the Americans, don't.
* A lot of union workers take pride in their work - but many view their jobs as entitlements. They refuse to be flexible, they refuse to think, they have an "us vs them" mentality. So there's no buttom up quality improvement there. I know I'll invoke the wrath of unionists, but everyone knows the "it's not my job" mentality is prevalent among the American Plants.
* American Automakers like to cut corners, even in vehicular designs. Once you cut those corners on design, no amount of quality workforce can fix it until it is fixed in the design. Period. Americans like to poke fun at heiristic societies like the French (where workers are drones, and management is king), but their inability to listen to their line folks and service departments is what prevents them from improving their vehicles once it ships.
* As much as it pains me to say this, American automakers no longer have pride in their work. The Europeans and Japanese take pride in their products - we don't.
Interior / Build Quality
* Poor Fit and Finish - American cars are designed and assembled with very LOOSE tolerances. You can use most of the interiors as piggy-banks, since you can easily push quarters into the gaps. The plastic moldings have a lot of flash left over from the compression molding, the buttons just look plain old fashioned.
* Inelegant design - Sit in a VW car, and compare it to an American Sedan, and you will know what I mean. The American consoles and buttons look old fashioned, down to the tacky green LED displays. The instrument stalk feels hallow and flimsly. The tactile feel of the buttons are.... cheap.
* Although American quality easily meets European reliability, many Americans are flocking to the fresher Euro Styling and plush interiors.
* The only automaker as cheap as the American Automakers with their interiors is Nissan. Their stick-on wood grain stickers may peel off, but at least the cars are reliable.
Handling
* Germans just know how to make a car fun to drive. The steering wheels are well balanced. The handling is secure, and solid.
I agree with many of the posters here. We lament the dying industrial base that is critical to our country's success. By buying foreign, we too are adding to the trade deficit, but, like most of the recent American elections, we have to chose the lesser of all evils.
Paying thousands of dollars of our hard-earned cash for a crappy product isn't patriotic, it's stupid. If you think welfare is out of control, corporate welfare is a worse sense of false security.
Apparently, I am not alone in this. After years of costly repairs, and countless downtimes, our "Buy American Only" family friend finally broke down and bought a Toyota.
Until the American automakers get their act together, this is only going to get worse. However, even if they do get it together, it will be a long time before they can earn the trust from my family again - let alone our family friend.
No Chrysler or Ford models made the top picks list and Chrysler had a number of "unimpressive new vehicles." Criticism included noisy, underpowered engines and cramped seating."
U.S., Korean vehicles crack Consumer Reports list (Reuters)
Another thing I noticed is that Honda and Toyota refresh their lines regularly (every 5 years), while Ford and GM tend to refresh less often. When they invariably get a "hit" seller, they don't bother re-investing into the platform to keep it fresh and current - preferring to bleed the cash cow dry before terminating the line.
Just what Congress has in mind for the masses. Chrysler is just getting a head start on the new CAFE standards. In a Yugo.
90% of Ford models were rated Average or better. GMs newer models were rated Average or better.
Poor Fit and Finish - American cars are designed and assembled with very LOOSE tolerances.
I just don't see this being the case anymore. GM and Ford both benchmark Lexus and others for interior craftsmanship (there is a story of Lutz walking through Lexi with vice presidents and pointing out differences).
* Inelegant design - Sit in a VW car, and compare it to an American Sedan, and you will know what I mean. The American consoles and buttons look old fashioned, down to the tacky green LED displays. The instrument stalk feels hallow and flimsly. The tactile feel of the buttons are.... cheap.
Is there a domestic vehicle you are using for this comparison? Benchmarking at NAIAS showed things were pretty even in the switch category. Push efforts, travel, and engagement are within the error range of measurement at the show.
The VW/Europeans use red on black for LED displays, which can increase eye fatigue at night. Green on black is one of the highest contrasts you can have (remember monochrome monitors...green on black). It seems like the current trend is towards softer colors overall.
* Germans just know how to make a car fun to drive. The steering wheels are well balanced. The handling is secure, and solid.
I think that has been more true in the past. I think the pinnacle of automotive development was the E36 M3 sedan. I think with the introduction of iDrive, internet browsing in your car, 40 cup holders, etc, the suckiness is about even.
I agree with every comment you made up until about 1995 or 1996. I think the 80s were a very bleak time for US automakers and it took them most of the 90s to figure it out, but with few exceptions, I think Ford and GM have had a successful run in the new millennium.
I believe the japanese word is "kaizen"...constant, ever incremental improvements, whether it be a better screw, more efficient handle, or tactile feel...
One day the union will wake up and realize they are really competing against some heavy competition, not some fly-by-nights like the Datsuns of the 1970s, or the Sony radios of the 1960s...for all the jobs they have lost, I still question whether they really "get it" since they want to strike whenever they can, and they make themselves look like fools...oh, they may get some higher wages, but then another 10% of them lose their jobs, but the union calls it a victory...
I guess the ultimate victory will be when the union worker earns $1 million per year, too bad there will only be ONE worker left...
I think in the last few years, the UAW has realized the seriousness of the situation and has been much more interested in working with the domestic manufacturers and Chrysler (which I guess is domestic again?) to develop a sustainable future.
I think realizing that there were more players, smaller market share, and a slightly shrinking overall market helped the unions sort through some things. The group that has a steep learning curve is the tier 1 and tier 2 suppliers.
Someone didn't get your memo I'm afraid. :shades:
steve_, "United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)" #2492, 28 Feb 2008 2:34 pm
Your rose-colored glasses aside, US government agencies are equally generous to ANYONE who wants to generated jobs. As pointed out above, EVERYONE gets tax incentives to build new factories or open new offices...GM, Chrysler, and Ford have even been given money and/or tax incentives just to maintain the status quo (and not move offices or factories, even within the US).
As for Harley-Davidson being singled out for federal aid, that's not entirely true.
In the early 1960s, the United States and Europe had a spat over trade and the US retaliated by imposing taxes on things European including furs and trucks. The tax, dubbed the "chicken tax" because of the argument over frozen chickens, has been completely abolished over the last 40 years...except for the truck part.
Cars imported into the US get a 2.5% tariff while trucks are covered by a 25% tariff. Have you noticed how few trucks are imported and just how many are built in the US with Japanese brand names? And this tax has been going on for over four and a half decades!
There's also CAFE which encourages domestic production of cars by averaging imported vehicles separately from domestic vehicles.
It takes money to make money. I don't mean the "elite" as in American royalty such as the Kennedy (or Bush) clan, but in more of a self-titled definition. Those types aren't people I see in my daily life, but I do see many born into well-to-do situations that are anything but cynical, because they have little to worry about when it comes to a roof or an income. It's like they say, those who claim money doesn't buy happiness have never had money.
The domestics are still coming from behind (in the overall rankings, they are still below the best of the Asians), and that won't be enough to give them what they really need - conquest customers.
The improvements in ratings will encourage loyalists to stay with GM and Ford, which is certainly a good thing. But GM and Ford need to conquest Honda and Toyota customers, and, "We're getting better and almost as good as the leaders", just won't cut it.
The interesting thing I note is that GM appears to have the better designs with its new models, but reliability is still somewhat uneven throughout the lineup (and even among some of the new models). Ford has done a better job of making consistent quality improvements across the board, but some of its new models are lackluster in the design department. Chrysler, well...
Another problem is that many people are failing to distinguish among individual companies, and lumping GM, Ford and Chrysler under the "domestics," and the innocent get punished along with the guilty.
Example - my wife's cousin recently completed nursing school. She had a 2002 Dodge Stratus with a little over 100,000 miles. She NEEDED a new car (not merely wanted one), because the Dodge was basically worn out. It had been very troublesome from about 40,000 miles.
She bought a Nissan Rogue, partly because, in her words, "I didn't want any domestics after that Dodge." Her parents, incidentally, live on a farm and drive Ford and Chevy trucks and have a Chrysler Concorde, so she wasn't raised around foreign nameplates.
We explained that not all domestics are the same, and that our 2005 Focus has been reliable so far (60,000+ miles), but she didn't want to hear it.
Live and adapt.
In terms of quality only, I wonder, because if they put out appealing products that are somewhat on par with their Japanese counterparts (re; Malibu) in terms of quality, yet are somewhat or clearly superior in terms of styling and sportiness then I think people will start to take notice. It won't happen overnite, but we'll see if the turnaround is in full swing w/in a couple or 3 yrs.
The reason I believe this is because for several years now, reports seem to suggest that American mfr's quality is gaining , whereas the European makes are slipping, yet the Europeans seem to still sell good amounts of cars based on their sporty styling.
It's funny, but the perception seems to be that BOTH the Europeans and the Japanese brands fly high, yet American brands that are better than both at some things (NOT ALL) generally regarded as lousy.
I think somebody got to your wife's cousin. If she has bad luck with her Rogue, I somehow doubt she'll swear off ALL Japanese brands. For someone to have bad luck with ONE car from ONE domestic brand and then swear them ALL off altogether seems pretty narrow minded (unless she had problems with her parent's cars growing up that isn't mentioned in your post).
I don't know if the domestics are necessarily ahead on sportiness. Compared to Toyotas, sure, as Toyotas are very conservative in design and performance.
But I don't see a GM product, for example, that compares well with a Civic Si or the Accord V-6 six speed (the Corvette doesn't count - I mean a GM vehicle with a comparable price tag, size and seating configuration).
cooterbfd: It's funny, but the perception seems to be that BOTH the Europeans and the Japanese brands fly high, yet American brands that are better than both at some things (NOT ALL) generally regarded as lousy.
I would have to disagree regarding the European brands. Many people are wary of them (particularly VW) and avoid them. What sells them is style, build quality (they do use good materials, particularly on the interiors) and performance. But a high percentage of drivers lease those cars, because they don't want to own them when the warranty ends.
cooterbfd: I think somebody got to your wife's cousin.
Somebody sure did - the people at DaimlerChrysler who engineered, designed and built her Stratus.
cooterbfd: If she has bad luck with her Rogue, I somehow doubt she'll swear off ALL Japanese brands. For someone to have bad luck with ONE car from ONE domestic brand and then swear them ALL off altogether seems pretty narrow minded (unless she had problems with her parent's cars growing up that isn't mentioned in your post).
No, it shows how pervasive the "domestics build garbage" meme really is (let's face it - that was true for too long), and how much effort and time it will take to overcome it. She didn't want to wade through reliability reports and reviews, so she went with "Japanese good, domestic bad."
She could get burned (I think she would have been better off with a Toyota or Honda if she wanted to buy Japanese), but, for many years, a buyer was less likely to get burned by a Japanese vehicle than by a domestic one. So, for her, that method of choosing a new vehicle worked. If Ford and GM keep improving their vehicles, and the results show up in Consumer Reports surveys, I'm sure that she will change her thinking.
Not everyone follows cars like we do, nor do they have any obligation to. Nor do they have an obligation to even check out a Ford, GM or Chrysler product when buying a new vehicle. That's the reality of the new vehicle market in 2008.
I suppose when I think of this I'm talking about the Malibu and to a certain extent the Aura. So no, GM doesn't, unless we are talking about the Cobalt SS or Sport (or whatever) but that pushes into $21-24K and thats MId-sized sedan territory, so that is out of the equation for the Civic. I suppose you could talk about the new Focus as the closest thing.
As far as the Accord, I assume you mean 6 sp. man., not auto. I guess GM's response would be not enough customers to warrant offering it, but with so many suppliers out there offering manual gearboxes, yoou would think they'd be able to find one that would justify it.
As far as leasing (Europes), I see ad's all day long for Accords for $108/mon. for 42 months, w/20% down. I'm sure that can get people in and keep them in.
The Civic SI is kind of a niche model although I understand your desire for sportiness. That is about a 20k vehicle. You could get a pretty wired up Astra which would compete with the LX or EX, but I can't think of anything from Ford or GM that competes with the Civic SI.
The Accord V6 6 speed sedan is gone. If you count the coupe, the same money would have gotten you a Pontiac GTO. Comparing the sedan to the sedan, a Saab 9-3, 9-5 or Pontiac G8 (rwd and a big V8) would also be in that range. Or a Mustang. Or a 300C or Dodge Challenger. 4 cylinder Camry money will get you a Hemi if that is what you are after.
I understand the frustration with lack of choices though. Finding a manual transmission wagon from any manufacturer is a PITA, in fact, finding a wagon at all is challenging. Someone decided I needed this high up monstrosity to transport a wife and infant and I just can't go for that.
With 50% of the sales volume now going to the transplants, Detroit can't downsize quick enough to stop the bleeding... Ford and Chrysler are in desperate shape with GM struggling to reconfigure their lineup--and only making money throught their overseas sales..
Enter the hoax of "Climate Change", "Treehuggers", and "Green Machines", now the fun begins. Oil is the "Economic Engine" of our country, but we cannot drill or refine to help ourselves, so we are on the brink of a depression, we are in a recession big time. Who would you like to blame??????? George,Maybe???? It's popular and handy!!!!
Folks---it's all political and just follow the money.....It's deeper than Fit&Finish of automotive assemblies.
We won the war--remember---lost the economic battle though!!!!
Homes are being sold in Michigan for as little as 25 cents on the dollar. After the bank has foreclosed on a property and that property stays in their inventory for six months---it is broomed for peanuts.. Our Congress thought it was everybody's right to own a home---enter subprime mortgages and bang! disaster!!! Credit cards and car loans next to fail..
I hold a land contract on 60 acres located on an Interstate exchange north of Detroit that went through a "Sheriff's Sale" on 2/1/08. I bought the land back and will have to wait until 8/1/08 or six months to resell the property. In Florida the redemption period is two weeks and Michigan is six months---all politics. This land was sold initally to a large developer with 1100 lots in Michigan-10 subdivisons, land in Arkansas-4 subdivisions, Arizona,Florida, and Nevada. They either redeem the land by paying me all monies owed by 8/1/08 or I get the land back. Deficiency judgement will prevail in the end--I am hoping they go into bankruptcy for I can't forsee any payment..I also own another 20 acres of great residential property which will be stuck in inventory for another 10 yrs.
In 74 yrs, I seen a few recessions and the housing industry in conjunction with the Big3 along with our past industrial base pulled the country out of the doldrums allowing us to rock and roll again..Don't depend on Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai or any other foreign entity to return this country to prosperity, for they ship their money back to the mainland. China is a big problem.
DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT OUR RECESSION OR COMING DEPRESSION IF YOU DRIVE A FORIEIGN CAR--85% FOREIGN CONTENT[ TOYOTA/HONDA] OR A LEXUS, MERCEDES,VW,AUDI, INFINITI,BMW,PORSCHE WHICH ARE 100% FOREIGN CONTENT...I know that a few Mercedes and BMWs are built in the USA. Peanuts-BABY.
You can admire the FIT&FINISH and superb quality standing in the line at your state umemployment office..
If we by chance have to go to war, do you think the transplant geniuses will supply us with tanks, guns, and armament???????? I don't think so-BABY!!!!!
I apologiize for the ranting but our educational industry and a few politicians have sold this country down the drain to a third world status..
I will pick up my new Mustang GT in six more weeks, good old V-8 power, lovely noise--solid rear axle, NO FANCY INDEPENDENT REAR SUSPENSION--low tech, however we drive on straight roads 99% of the time don't we???? Leave the fancy stuff for the big buck cars..This Mustang will join my 06 Pontiac GPGT-V6SC, not a great car but only paid $17000 w/4300mi-MSRP $30250.
Love the DETROIT IRON!!!!!!!!
Have fun shredding this post....
This looks like a ray of hope for Detroit.
Metro home sales up by 15%
Detroit leads gains with almost double amount of closings over same period last year. Louis Aguilar / The Detroit News
Sales of residential and condominium units in Detroit nearly doubled in January, compared with the same month a year ago, and the region overall got a nearly 15 percent bump, according to real estate data firm Realcomp.
The city of Detroit led the gainers, posting a 45.5 percent increase in the month, with 736 closings.
Seven Realtors who deal primarily in downtown Detroit area property said they have enjoyed some of their recent best sale months in December and January. Sales of houses and condominiums in Detroit jumped by a 33.9 percent in December 2007, compared to December 2006. No other market in the Metro Detroit area came close to that kind of increase last year, according to Realcomp.
Yeah they are turning a lot of the old buildings into flats and condos and trying to put them close to nightlife areas. It is a draw for young, professional folks to move downtown. Local radio stations (and NPR) did stories on it during "Winter Blast," which is this festival thing they have in the middle of winter downtown in the D.
It would bug me personally to live in a town with no grocery store and have to pay a tax to support the mayor's legal troubles, but I could also see it being fun to live in a city.
The longest stretch of straight road in the county is maybe half a mile at best. IRS FTW.
This Mustang will join my 06 Pontiac GPGT-V6SC, not a great car but only paid $17000 w/4300mi-MSRP $30250.
Apparently you didn't love the Detroit iron enough to pay list for a new one. Oh well, that unemployed UAW worker didn't need your $13,250 anyway.
and, if one can buy used, or end of model year sales, or rebates, it would be foolish to pay MSRP...that was the way even in the heydays of the union, before Honda was even a carmaker...
and, if one can buy used, or end of model year sales, or rebates, it would be foolish to pay MSRP...that was the way even in the heydays of the union, before Honda was even a carmaker...
And it applies to Honda as well. My Accord EX was $4500 under msrp and a couple thousand under invoice. Its a perfectly acceptable vehicle, although just as bland and indistinguishable as anything else out there. If you make a commodity product, you get commodity rates.
Once the car is at the dealer the worker that built it is already paid. To me anything over invoice is money down the old toilet.
America's CEO's, like U.K.'s CEO's have sold the farm and all the stock and kit so now we rely on inward investment and huge amounts of money being trundled around the London money market. Not really my formula for future well-being.
China is a huge potential threat to us all, (as is India), but that's the way it is - the British Empire was a major control mechanism and cash generator and now it's someone else's turn. America has not been without its Imperialist tendencies and was highly instrumental in "waking up" China as it saw that region as a major cash-cow. Looks like the cow has teeth, an enormous appetite and little in the way of conscience. However, Europe may yet prove to be an irritant to you. We have a large internal market, a largely non-unionised workforce, great design ability and old fashioned smarts. Hey, that's another whole topic. Sorry.
Not even going to start on the whole "Green" thing; just another set of excuses to raise taxes and limit freedoms.
Next 20 years will doubtless be interesting. May we both be around to see it.
Interesting twist on "Outsourcing". I was having lunch with a friend that is a manager of tech support for an HP company. He said a lot of the outsourcing to India is being sublet back to small companies in the USA. I am sure it has to do with finding people that can communicate with those seeking technical assistance. So HP pays a company in India to handle tech support. They hire a company in the USA to do the actual work. HP does not have the burden of employees to deal with. American workers are still some of the best in the World. We don't need long vacations and a lot of holidays like the Germans. For the most part we do speak a form of English :shades:
I still cannot figure out why you folks pay more for a Jaguar built in the UK than we do. Beautiful cars. I have always liked them. If you ever send us a diesel Range Rover I will sell this Sequoia.
I'm not going to "shred" your post, but I have to ask how "USA" is it to move a car factory to Mexico? I mean, don't the auto makers have some obligation to this country, too?
They wave the flag and tell us to buy their products, while they refuse to pay U.S. workers to build them. Meanwhile, Honda, Toyota and BMW have no problem building factories here, and staffing them with U.S. workers.
I won't buy a foreign-built car just because it has an American logo on it. And I won't refuse to buy a well-built car just because it's built with foreign parts.
Sacrificing quality for propoganda is un-American.
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I suspect HP saves a bundle on benefits even if the local contract workforce costs substantially more than their offshore workers.
Corporations have loyalty to their shareholders, not the country where they were founded. It's all about the money. And if I own Ford stock, and Ford decides to pull up stakes and move to Australia and concentrate on their Holden and Falcon brands, and the stock doubles in six months, do I really care that they left Dearborn?
The Toyota hierarchy will swear that their engineering experts are staying away from tweaking their racing products, only fools would believe them. I have been there and watched, for they will spend money and buy influence whenever they are not being watched.
The truck tariff only delayed their arrival--for the big pickups aren't used in Japan.. They are somewhat larger than rickshaws.....
My son has been a broker since 1983 in the areas bordering Detroit, northeast of the decayed city proper and sales have slowed to a crawl. Only action is short sales and foreclosures. His normal personal volume is around 5MM to 10MM annually maybe hit 2MM this year..if he is lucky..
I read the same article in the Sarasota Times-Herald--owned by the New York Times.. I live in Venice, Fl..
My daughter lives in Venice and has been involved in real estate market here since 2000. They flipped six properties and did very well with gains of 100% in half of the deals with 50% on the balance..Totally out of the market now--just closed on their original home purchase in Feb 08, waited too long only doubled their money.
The real estate market in Fla will probably take 5-7yrs to regain any steam. In Michigan just go back to 1990 pricing..
Mustangs are very simple--lovely runner.
Now to my used Pontiac which I purchased in May 2007 from the local Caddy dealer, and traded in my 2002 Olds Intrigue w/119,500 mi..which I had purchased new in Nov. 2002., got a neat deal on the trade, the Intrigue went right to the auction block the next day.
That was my third Intrigue--all bought new--first one was a loaded GLS 1998 which was repurchased by GM after 26,000 mi costing me $650 to own, took their check and added $800 and bought a 1999 GLS loaded piling on 75,000 miles and traded it in on the final 2002 Intrigue. Super cars--3.5 4valve, alum blocked V-6 was a champ--loved the road.
Back to my 06 GPGT SC V-6, 4300 miles, loaded, cheap price, caddy tradein and I love to negotiate..No I wouldn't have been dumb enough to buy it new--no resale market for this model but I could care less about what I get for it in the future..
The pricing on new cars is set--no room--no slop..My Mustang is being priced at invoice less rebates---no big deal. It will never be sold during my lifetime. Out of the 43 cars owned in my life I have never had a Mustang. They are a little tinny and not the best fit and finish-who cares.
My favorite ride for 90,000 miles was a new 71SS350 Camaro, company car-bought new for 3000 and was sold for 2000 eighteen months later..Good deal. Bought the wife an 82 Z-28 new, but it was a looker and not a mover, Had a 66 Cuda-new-finally broomed it after 90000 miles.. The rest of my cars were on the saner side-sizewise.
I try to buy new to help Detroit---pass the Word...
Thats just lower control arm bushings, just like on any other vehicle. Not only is it not cheaper to keep buying tires, its an unsafe condition.
The rear lower control arms for an E36 BMW are cheaper then the hub/ABS sensor unit for that Intrigue.
That Mustang, old Camaro, Jeep, Tahoe, Explorer with a solid rear axle is fine so long as the roads are glass smooth and you only need to go straight. The Mustang Cobra had a very elaborate IRS if memory serves. Ditto "America's Supercar" the Corvette. While the C4 was pretty much a POS, the C5+ offers amazing performance per dollar.
So, a nonunionized plant will always run more efficiently because you need fewer workers to get the job done...
Until the Big 3 eliminate ALL work restrictions, they cannot and will not be fully competitive...it is as simple as that...so, when you remove all the anti-business and anti-common-sense rules of the union, employing American workers is really a smart thing to do...
The simple solution is for the Big 3 to collectively declare Chapter 11 bankruptcy, void their union contracts, and start the hiring process all over again...anyone who has been a problem should be discarded and sent to WalMart as a greeter...
Business is cruel, and the Big 3 have started to open their eyes, but until they destroy union work rules, they are still at a competitive disadvantage, even with their VEBAs...
Anyway, on a lighter note, good luck with your new Mustang GT! I'm the proud owner of a black 2007 Cadillac DTS Performance I bought last November. I also have a 1989 Cadillac Brougham and a 1988 Buick Park Avenue. My girlfriend has a 2005 Buick LaCrosse she purchased new three years ago. Not all hope is lost. Here's another guy who absolutely loves Detroit iron!