Yeah, but I wonder if these gimmicks "add value" to the new car. I think that, rather than give the farm away, if GM would offer 5 years of OnStar and 5 years of XM sat. they may draw in some extra buyers. A stunt like that would cost about $1500 (retail).
Hey, if they can offer 0% in lieu of some rebates, why not stuff like this?
Since Chrysler is known for making cars worse than lemons themselves (junk below lemon car quality category), they should do the following:
Offer the Lifetime Warranty with $5,000 per vehicle put into an escrow account to be used for vehicle repairs only for the following 12 years. This would assure would-be buyers they won't close their doors in 2 years.
Offer a $5,000 rebate for previous Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth buyers who got burned by purchases on or after 1/1/90.
Offer free rental car services everytime the car needs assistance and warranty work. This should include road side assistance for 10 years or 100K miles.
Offer the $2.99 for 3 years gas card. Offer the 0 percent financing. Issue a public letter of apology for apallingly bad performance and sales tactics in the 1990's.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
And Daimler should be responsible for half of that, as they controlled it for half that time. Thanks to them, Dodge will be badge engineered by Chery w/ in 10 yrs.
Your opinion, does not make your statement about Chrysler any way close to truth. Who is yourt source (besides you) that "Chrysler is known for making cars worse than lemons thenselves (junk below car quality category)". I can't believe you would even think of such rediculous ideas as $5000. rebate! All vehicles made in the US are pretty much on the same level of quality. Why do you think in most parts of the world people want an American made Car? You sound bitter, and I doubt there is a vehicle made that you would find pleases you. Well maybe a YOUGO?
My opinion is obviously shared by millions of Americans on Chrysler, hence their depleting sales in the US over the last decade. People have been burned by Chrysler and will go back to American no more.
Should Ford and GM be punished for Chrysler's misdeeds???? I don't know, but it seems logical enough if the experience with Chrylser was bad enough that all relatives are boycotted as well, and the closest relatives to Chrysler are Ford & GM.
It's not just my opinion, CR continually shows that Chrysler makes the lowest scoring vehicles, with the most black dots of any manufacturer, on the whole.
$5,000 rebates aren't entirely ridiculous, I think some SUV's, Saabs, and Tundra's (even Toyota) have offered them, at least at some point in the past.
Actually, most people in the world don't want American cars, but the one's that do, want them due to a few reasons: 1) the US companies chose to not make lemons and/or worse on other Continents 2) the US companies chose to make higher quality, better built vehicles on other Continents to the American versions. 3) the US companies price their vehicles better in other countries. 4) They use better materials and fit & finish, with better design and engineering 5) In South America, were value matters due to poor countries and people, you see nothing but Toyota's & Nissans (at least 90% of what I saw). All the cabs were Toyotas.
I actually have found vehicles that please me very much. 2 out of the 3 new cars I've purchased have been wonderful and I'm extremely happy with them. The one new car that didn't work out whatsoever was the Chrysler. The two that have: 2003 Honda Accord V6 Coupe 2006 Audi A3 2.0T DSG
These cars have been between "Semi-trouble-free" and "virtually trouble free". A Japanese and German car are both 100% able to please me, 1 for 1 each. The Audi has actually been the most reliable, dependable, and least troubling of them all. The Honda was great but had a lot of "little issues." Nothing that stranded me or required a tow truck however. The Chrysler (under their Dodge name) was the opposite of trouble-free, it was trouble-Full!! It was nothing but trouble. 0 for 1 for the domestics, and yes, Ford and GM get collateral damage from the EXTREMISM of Chryslers failings. If it had only been bad, and not miserably bad, only Chrysler would have lost my business for life.
Honda had it's issues with a first year design but at least they stand behind their product and extend warranties when needed.
Total repair bill for 65K miles on the HOnda is 0.00 dollars. Total repair bill for the Audi at 39K miles currently, zero dollars (still under warranty).
Total repair and tow truck costs of the Dodge for the 65K miles I kept it????? Wow, hard to remember an exact number, but it easily comes close to the $5K rebate I'm proposing Chrysler offer for their new vehicles.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Yes, you simply can not forget the burn! Current costs for the 58K miles on our Yukon Denali...$3,000 but all under original warranty and extended warranty which I purchased for $1,900.
So far my most expensive car to repair and maintain has been the '93 Accord. It was also the leader for most times on a hook, and the highest repair costs. It handily beat the '96 Contour (which from what I hear should've been a feat in itself, although mine was on a hook only once) and an '89 Galant (which I don't ever remember not making it in under its own power). It even beat the '89 Caravan (which lost a steering rack and a trans, both warrantied).
What is more annoying than that is all the little things that were NEVER fixed properly.
I still don't think it was a terrible car. As I started doing my own maintenance the cost to own dropped considerably and it had good fuel economy. It was also easy to get parts for when required. I just wasn't overly impressed with it.
I guess I feel the same way with the '07, just not overly impressed, although the value side of the equation was there. It is about as bland and soulless a transportation pod as one could ask for, while having no features other than a "reputation" to distinguish in its field.
I am just happy I don't have any bad experiences or ridiculous grudges to carry around as I shop for a vehicle and I can actually just pick the one that best meets my needs.
The new Accord has been dead nuts reliable for the first 11k of its life, and returned 34 mpg on its last tank, so no complaints there. The dash is mismatched, the fit and finish is hap-hazard, and the stereo lacks features, but its comfortable enough and efficient. Oh, a couple of other things, I think as Honda switched over to more environmentally friendly paint processes, the quality of their finishes has suffered. For how babied my car is, it has an inordinate number of small scratches. I think the metal is thinner as well as it seems door-ding prone. I wish the handling was a little more responsive and the tires were a little more performance oriented as opposed to Buick oriented, but I am a niche market.
I am glad the reliability is DNO for you. Whatever car you buy, I believe that is first in expectations. The mileage you are getting is a flip side to the performance/handling shortfall. I researched the Si and the 1,000 Mugen series they will offer but the price is quite steep for a Civic.
The Si could be nice, if they ever get the 3rd gear problems sorted out. I sat in one at the auto show, and realized that my right leg would press into the handbrake handle.
What some people call a grudge, I call holding people/company responsible and accountable. I am only holding Chrysler accountable for their fraudulent actions in the 90's by witholding the opportunity to earn my business in the future (unless of course they pay me back for the money they wasted without my having to sue them in court). They can BUY their way out of the reputation earned by them. I'm simply holding them responsible.
And on the other hand, even if your old '93 Honda was problematic, it doesn't sound nearly as problematic as my '95 Dodge, not even the same ballpark. Also, their were good points to your old Honda, such as high gas mileage. The '95 Dodge had no good points other than being a fairly decent $13K ride with pretty good roominess while it ran. The problem is that it often didn't run, but was in the shop. Also, the performance was lackluster while returning unacceptable gas mileage for that lackluster performance. It was simply an inefficent lemon, you couldn't even make much lemonade from it .
The final straw of course, was the inevitable and miserable resale value. You either pay through the roof in depreciation, or pay through the roof to keep it running longer. See, the thing is your Honda may have been the bad apple, but since that is uncommon you had high resale value. Since Chrysler making something other than a lemon is uncommon, I suffered terrible resale value. The dollar speaks!
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
What some people call a grudge, I call holding people/company responsible and accountable. I am only holding Chrysler accountable for their fraudulent actions in the 90's by withholding the opportunity to earn my business in the future (unless of course they pay me back for the money they wasted without my having to sue them in court). They can BUY their way out of the reputation earned by them. I'm simply holding them responsible.
I don't have a problem with that at all, although given your history I do find it interesting you bought an Audi, one of the few cars ranked beneath Chrysler by certain folks who do those types of ratings. That non-withstanding, I think you are right about speaking with your feet and your wallet. I think that if I had been done wrong by someone, I wouldn't want to do business with them again (although I probably wouldn't write off the whole country).
I think you obviously realize that there is little chance of Cerberus group offering you anything for a lemon made 15 years and 3 companies ago, but if that is the mantra you subscribe to, I don't have an issue. I just feel fortunate not to have had an experience like yours with our Caravan or any of our other cars.
That said, if you would like to replace your '03 Accord coupe with a lovely '07 EX sedan with a nice fuel saving 5 speed manual, let me know , somewhere out there, there is a MazdaSpeed6 with my name on it.
Talk about depreciation, or a lack of it...I paid $12,000 for my first Honda, a 1985 Prelude...I sold it 20 months later, almost 2 years, with 21,000 miles on it (I bought a new 4 door Accord)...
After 2 years and 21,000 miles, I sold it for $11,500...only $500 less than I paid for it, and it was in top-notch condition, tight as a drum...this was my first experience with imports, right in the middle of 15 years of American made junk (1970-1985)...
All I can say is this...my Hondas were solid automobiles, what the Big 3 was incapable of making, and what the union would never make... because on the Honda, someone actually cared if it was put together correctly, simply because the difference between my Hondas and my previous Big 3 cars was night and day...my Pontiac Ventura had the dashboard out of alignment over two inches, which was made by an incompetent union line worker (is there any other kind?)...
I have returned to the Big 3 because I hope they are better...no question, they ARE better now than the 70s and 80s, but they still do not seem as rock-solid as my Hondas...
Close friends just purchased a 2008 Chrysler minivan...bad tranny out of the bow...negotiated a new one...watch out for a certified pre-owned lemon in Central NJ!
All I can say is this...my Hondas were solid automobiles
I am glad they were solid for 2 years, because after that, I have found they turn into rattle boxes. Our '93 Civic and our '93 Accord both had enough rattles to give me a headache after 45 minutes of driving. I replaced a lot of plastic clips over the cars' lives.
I do agree that the emissions control era (1975-1985 or so) was a very dark time for the domestic manufacturers. I think the game changed a bit with the new Taurus of '86 (basically a Honda Accord mated with an Audi 5000) and that helped establish Ford, Chrysler had the mini-van and i am not sure about GM.
Well, everybody is better than they were in the 1970s. There was nowhere to go but up. However, I've owned a lot of 1970s and 1980s cars and they weren't nearly as bad as everybody makes them out to be. I have great luck with 1980s GM products - my 1988 Buick Park Avenue and 1989 Cadillac Brougham are still here and doing fine. I had a 1985 Chrysler Fifth Avenue that turned out to be one of the best cars I've ever owned. I sold it to my brother 15 years ago and he still drives it.
My wife will not even look at a Ford without remembering our problems in the past. And because of our past experiences: for her it's Mopar or no car. Luck of the draw, I guess. :shades:
My 1988 Prelude and Legend lasted 180K and 165K respectively, and they were solid as a rock until about 125K, then rattles showed up...
Anytime I traded a car, I was always glad to be rid of it...these two Hondas were so well made, and worked so well for so long, that I kept them 13 and 10 years because I never thought I could ever buy another car as good as they were...
lilengineerboy: I am glad they were solid for 2 years, because after that, I have found they turn into rattle boxes. Our '93 Civic and our '93 Accord both had enough rattles to give me a headache after 45 minutes of driving. I replaced a lot of plastic clips over the cars' lives.
With few exceptions, the people I know who had American cars (not trucks or SUVs) built during that timeframe would have been thrilled if their only worry had been rattles and squeaks.
Hondas were MUCH better built than comparable 1990s American cars. Today the gap is much smaller, but it's still there.
Noticed you are a member of a Caddy & LaSalle club. We had 39/40 LaSalle during WWII as well as a Nash Ambassador 8..a 39/40..The LaSalle was a V-8 w/floor shift, great car and was used as an every day driver with keeping it in tires the biggest problem..Gas was not a problem for the family business was real estate and a farm located 90 miles from homebase..I was 6 yrs old when WWII began so memory is somewhat clouded on the exact car issues.
The Nash was a weekend driver and not the fastback 4dr model--however it was an I-8 w/dual ignition, tranny was 3 speed w/overdrive. The car was a beautiful black 4dr with tons of comfort and cruised effortlessly @ 80, returning 20 mpg..
The other driver during the war was a Packard, late 30s vintage belonged to grandparent who didn't drive..So we occasionly had it out for exercise..
Remember the first synthetic tire we had on the LaSalle for .,.it exploded after about 800 miles, not a shred of tire left on the rim..Back to the recaps..
When the Korean War started I remember my father immediately bought 50 tires as a hedge against possible shortages..I couldn't ruin tires quick enough trying to use up the inventory.
The aforementioned cars got us thru the war years with great reliabilty and smooth motoring..They aways went the distance for we made the 180 mile trip to the farm every week during the summer and twice monthly the balance of the year..
My first Chrysler product was a 60 Dodge Matador-4dr-black-V-8, bought new, kept less than 10k miles, traded it on a new 60 Impala Conv w/348 engine..The Dodge upchucked it's transmission within 5k miles and factory replaced it w/o question. In fact I remember the service mgr taking the car for a shakedown cruise which was a quick 0-100 to make sure it was defective.
My second Chrysler offering was a new 66 Cuda w/273 Hi-po V-8 w/4bbl carb, Blue Streak tires and racing stripes down the center..Nice car, nothing great and traded in after 90k miles on a new 68 Impala 2dr fastback V-8..
The other was a Valiant I bought for the wife-slant six..no problems..Wifey also got the Cuda for a few months before I traded it in..
My son just purchased a 08 Chrysler Hemi after 7 Caddies, his choice..
When the Korean War really got rev'd-up the government put production quotas on each of the American automakers for the 1952 model year. They also curtailed the use of chrome so automakers used either a painted piece in lieu of a plated piece or used thinner plating on brightwork pieces. Pretty soon the thin plating would wear through and was known as "Korean War Chrome."
Speaking of rattle boxes, that was definitely one of my least favorite features on the '95 Dodge. The thing just rattled like hell. There were so many noises, clanks, clunks, and rattles coming from the car by 60,000 miles, you'd of thought that one of those drives you'd end up with 1,000 car parts scattered all over the freeway one day with nothing left but the seat under your butt and the streering wheel in your hand.
Cartoonish end? yes, but that's what it sounded like. Every new rattle made me hate Chrysler even more for putting such a piece of ***T on the market.
My 03 HOnda had some very minor issues with rattles, but they were fixed upon telling HOnda about them. Car was rock solid at 65K miles when I sold it for 53% of my out the door costs (it was 50 months old too) not bad at all!!! Sorry, don't have it to trade for your 07; had to take advantage of that great resale from Honda so I could afford the Audi.
Actually, I think your getting your Audi reliability statistics from the 80's, because if you look at recent ratings, Audi surpassed many an automaker by 2002, and has shown continual improvement year after year, to where they are average or better on most all models by 2007. Audi had had a quality control program in place now for years, and it's worked! VW has not done the same, and it shows! Audi's gone up, VW remains in Chrsysler's ball park, but at least my families '87 Jetta reached 100K miles, the Dodge wouldn't have reached that for less than $10K I imagine.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I think you obviously realize that there is little chance of Cerberus group offering you anything for a lemon made 15 years and 3 companies ago, but if that is the mantra you subscribe to, I don't have an issue. I just feel fortunate not to have had an experience like yours with our Caravan or any of our other cars.
It's Cerberus' right and choice not to meet my demands to win me as a customer again, or simply win me back. It is my right and choice to not be a Cerberus customer until they do. I don't care if they don't care. I don't give a rat's behind if they ever decide to win customers back, because there are other more competent automakers in the world.
Chrysler serves as an excellent example of why captalism is better than socialism, if the US was more capitalist, and less socialiest when it comes to US automakers, then Chrsyler would have been history long before the lemons of the 90's. Maybe some other company could have taken Chrysler's spot as the #3 US automaker, and maybe that company would have been more competent in making automobiles. Sometimes, without death, there can be no real progress. Evolution was stunted in America.
Instead of survival of the fittest, we have "Survival of the Weak"
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
That wouldn't take much, considering their competition....
Now THAT's a good one!!!! And so true! :lemon:
GM seems to be pulling it together, at least as far as test reviewers are concerned (for the most part, not always on all models). However, whether they are making good cars that don't last, remains to be seen.
In a few more years time we'll know if they are making good cars that do last.
Ford's cars are all pretty boring to me, and seem to handle like tanks (not good), but I like the Fusion's reliability rankings so far (all short term of course so far).
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Hondas were MUCH better built than comparable 1990s American cars. Today the gap is much smaller, but it's still there.
Can't really argue with you generally, however, specifically, I would prefer some American 90's cars to the Hondas......for specific reasons. Know what I mean? And I'm talking < 100,000 miles too.
Never owned a Honda, however my experience with the cars during the 90's was far from dismal. Cars involved during this 10yr span: 89 Pontiac 6000 SE V-6-95k mi., 91Pontiac 6000 SE V-6-96k mi, 92 Buick Regal GS V-6-95k mi, 94 Buick LeSabre V-6-110k mi, 98 Olds Intrigue GLS V-6-26k mi, and 99 Olds Intrigue GLS V-6-75k mi..===497,000 miles--no rattles--no tuneups--no fliud changes--new struts on 94 Buick and 98 Olds was repurchased by GM. Other cars during that period was a Buick Electra T-Type 36k miles, 91 Caddy Touring Sedan 4.9 V-8- 61k mi, and a 96 Caddy Deville Northstar V-8- 89k mi. all purchased new..91 Caddy got a new engine courtesy of Cadillac at 61k-piston slap..The 96 Caddy had some issues but was a great cruiser, no engine or tranny issues.
The 08 Hondas are clearly an upgrade from the past models and are dearly loved by most auto magazine testers, but I will stay the course with the GM and probably jump on the Ford bandwagon for a Mustang GT..
My favorite gas pump was finally fixed and I had to pay the going price..My MPG went to 19.51 from 29.00. My houseguest's mileage on her 2002 Camary went to 33.50 from the normal 23.. Oh-well back to normal..
I certainly realize that while I may tout my Hondas as the best cars I have ever owned, there are many folks who bought cream puff Big 3 cars in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, which I consider to be the three worst decades for American cars, and I still consider them junk...
BUT, and this is a big but (play on words...), I believe the number of folks who shared my experience far outweighs those who shared your experience, because the imports would not have been gaining market share since, oh, about 1985, if they shared your experience, which, to me, validates my opinion that there are a lot of folks who simply think imports are better...are they right???...that is always a matter of opinion...
But, in increasing numbers, they have been putting their hard-earned money down on Toy, Honda and Nissan, and less on GM, Ford and Chrysler, almost every year since 1985...
While the market does not actually determine quality, the market DOES measure what the buyers think is quality, if you simply assume that the average person will buy something that they believe is good, and rationally avoid something they believe is bad...
And if their experience is anything like mine, then you will understand in a heartbeat why Big 3 sales have been waning, and imports have been on a steady rise for almost 30 years...
Americans have spoken, and they do not believe, in great numbers, that Big 3 cars represent the best value or quality...if they did, the imports would wither away like Yugo...
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I know it's hard to swallow but your dead nuts on. I keep repeating ad nauseum the model is broken in the US...they are trying to fix it but it will take a long time.
I honestly hope they make it but for now, I will stay in importsville.
I certainly realize that while I may tout my Hondas as the best cars I have ever owned,
I don't think your Hondas were just the best cars you've owned, I think that the 88 Legend was one of the best cars ever made. I think the '86 Legend, when it came out, was so revolutionary, it created the whole near-lux sport sedan category. I think we had to wait until the 1995-99 BMW M3 came out for something as revolutionary. And I don't think anything since then has been as big a paradigm shift.
But, in increasing numbers, they have been putting their hard-earned money down on Toy, Honda and Nissan, and less on GM, Ford and Chrysler, almost every year since 1985...
I don't think Honda (or Toyota) evolved at the same pace after that. I feel like the domestics have more/less caught the Japanese competition with respect to reliability and some design aspects.
And if their experience is anything like mine, then you will understand in a heartbeat why Big 3 sales have been waning, and imports have been on a steady rise for almost 30 years...
Actually, Big 3 sales haven't been waning as much across all categories. They were doing great in trucks and SUVs, they just didn't really spend their profits wisely on developing more fuel efficient vehicles.
Of course now, Focus sales are way up, the Astra is starting to kick in, the Malibu and Fusion are competitive entries into the market, etc.
Americans have spoken, and they do not believe, in great numbers, that Big 3 cars represent the best value or quality...if they did, the imports would wither away like Yugo...
As amusing as your doomsday account is, you imply its a done deal, there is no hope, the entire domestic automobile industry might as well pack it up and go home. I don't see that as accurate. I see Ford making a comeback (if not in market share, at least in profitability), and GM is trying with decent new product.
I think the people will buy what is best for them, and I think they are smart enough to realize when the playing field is more level.
Yes, the 1988 Legend, for me, was the perfect size, perfect dashboard, and perfect design, and I would buy it again if I could...it WAS a little underpowered at 165 HP in their V6, but in the same year, 1988, Ford was bragging that their Town Car had a 302 V8 that put out, I believe, 160 HP...what a shame that was...
Technically, you ae certainlt right in that Big 3 did not lose in all categories...I am not getting that specific in my broad statement, I am just saying that imports have been growing in overall market share at the expense of the Big 3, simply because, rightly or wrongly, many folks believe imports are better overall...and yes, I do not expect the Big 3 to blow away, altho Ford's debt may eventually kill them if their models do not sell enough...
Your specific points are correct, but I was painting with a broad brush, and while the Japanese were upstarts in the 70s and early 80s, by 1985 or so, it was evident that their cars were, overall, NOT junk...
That reputation is growing in the last 15 years, Big 3 are still playing catch-up, and American cars do not have, to borrow a legal phrase, a "presumption of quality"...it does seem that anytime an American car is reviewed as "solidly built" or "high quality", people are often surprised, as the American (union) product is simply not assumed to be the quality vehicle, not when the imports now have about 50% of the overalll market share...
OK, I bought a "Professional Grade" SUV from GM in 2003 and it has disapointed me in reliability because parts break down often like in the 1980 -1990 era.
Where is the improvement? MAP Sensor 2005. Power Steering Pump 2006, A/C condenser 2007? Come on. These should last beyond five years. The truck has 58K miles and has been through $3,000 in repair. The MAP sensor took 4 visits and a Lemon Law filing for before they concentrated their efforts by linking up directly with GM in Detroit for correct diagnostics before they could isolate the stall condition to the MAP sensor. It took the dealer 5 attempts to correctly upgrade On-Star from Analog to Digital. I finally got a loaner on the last attempt for that one. When you live these issues, it's hard to just assume the next GM will be perfect.
You install junk parts and quality will NEVER improve. The entire system from Corporate on through the entire supply chain with all of its problems needs to change.
Technically, you ae certainlt right in that Big 3 did not lose in all categories...I am not getting that specific in my broad statement, I am just saying that imports have been growing in overall market share at the expense of the Big 3, simply because, rightly or wrongly, many folks believe imports are better overall...and yes, I do not expect the Big 3 to blow away, altho Ford's debt may eventually kill them if their models do not sell enough...
I think that has a lot to do with the decision of the domestics to concentrate on trucks more than cars. I think the 1986 Taurus was a major game changer (on the same level as the Legend, but in a different market segment), but in the late 90s, with Explorer sales putting Ford's kids through college, they forgot about it, along with the Escort and Crown Vic.
They had to spend the next 10 years remembering how to make cars, borrowing from European partners, and working on drivetrains. All the people that bought Windstars with 3.8l head gasket issues or the A4OD transmission issues were pretty turned off. I don't know if Ford will ever win them back.
That said, the Focus is selling so well they have had to add additional shifts at the plants, the Fusion and Milan have had great reliability (not that its something to brag about, but its something that lets them come to the table), and even silly consumer magazines that rate dishwashers like the new Fords. I think they are wining customers from younger age groups, and folks that like a comeback/underdog story.
I think GM is in a similar situation, they are borrowing Australian and European cars to complete their line ups (but perhaps making the wrong decisions about what engines to bring over - the Astra should have the option of some tiny engine and get a million MPG, like the Aveo but less of a penalty box). I find their midsize sedans competitive in the class (maybe not class leading, but they are competitive in each category), and I do like the sound of that 3.6 they stick in all the "new world" designs.
When they get through this, and actually make a sport sedan, I will be happy to look at their offerings, and given Ford's plan to propagate EcoBoost, I think I won't have to wait too long.
The MAP sensor took 4 visits and a Lemon Law filing for before they concentrated their efforts by linking up directly with GM in Detroit for correct diagnostics before they could isolate the stall condition to the MAP sensor. It took the dealer 5 attempts to correctly upgrade On-Star from Analog to Digital. I finally got a loaner on the last attempt for that one.
You install junk parts and quality will NEVER improve. The entire system from Corporate on through the entire supply chain with all of its problems needs to change.
It sounds more like the dealer network needs to change. While equally anecdotal, in 10 years of routine visits, my then local Honda dealer (Santa Barbabra Honda) couldn't resolve a sticky passenger side rear door (sometimes it would open, sometimes not..the latch needed to be adjusted and lock-tighted), or the musty smell from the AC system on a 1993 Accord. The highlight though was when they left the oil drain plug off of my then gf now wife's car.
The local Lincoln Mercury dealer (where I bought by Contour, used) took great care of me, as did the Ford dealer in San Luis Obispo and in Freemont (although the actually Ford dealer in SB was not as well respected). Even in Michigan, Ford and L-M dealers have been great. I can't complain about the service from the local Subaru or Honda dealer in Michigan either.
Agree. Had a 3003 "Linky" LS and service at both dealers in NJ an NY were top rate. No major issues on both Lincolns (1988 Mark LSC). Too bad FLM has not provided more exciting choices. I know the Continentals have good quality also. They should have developed the LS. Oh well.
The dealer network is a weak link probably for all of the manufacturers. I have never resaerched the Japanese since the last Toyota I owned eas a Tercel in 1982 that was bulllet proof except for the timing chain at around 80K miles. How could you complain with 30 MPG back then and the space to change it out yourself just added to the economy of ownership.
Some dealers do it better than others. I know the BPG dealer in my town picked up huge business from a dealer that closed about 20 miles away. That does not change the capability equation. I can tell you the BMW dealer I used for the last 3 years has been the best experience for me. Others on the BMW forum have had very bad experiences around the country, however.
So, for the next family bus, we are heavily considering the Highlander over the Enclave just form the first year reports on the M&R forums. When you compare just these, the quality balance is anecdotal but typical non the less.
Comments
Some of their numbers don't make sense and they are combining the LR2 and LR3 together when they share absolutely zero components between them.
I knew Chrysler would have to bribe people sooner or later, but I think this is too little too late. Anyone have details on this?
I like the idea of $3 gas for the next 3 years given it's currently at $4 in CA.
Hey, if they can offer 0% in lieu of some rebates, why not stuff like this?
Regards,
OW
Since Chrysler is known for making cars worse than lemons themselves (junk below lemon car quality category), they should do the following:
Offer the Lifetime Warranty with $5,000 per vehicle put into an escrow account to be used for vehicle repairs only for the following 12 years. This would assure would-be buyers they won't close their doors in 2 years.
Offer a $5,000 rebate for previous Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth buyers who got burned by purchases on or after 1/1/90.
Offer free rental car services everytime the car needs assistance and warranty work. This should include road side assistance for 10 years or 100K miles.
Offer the $2.99 for 3 years gas card.
Offer the 0 percent financing.
Issue a public letter of apology for apallingly bad performance and sales tactics in the 1990's.
Regards,
OW
I can't believe you would even think of such rediculous ideas as $5000. rebate!
All vehicles made in the US are pretty much on the same level of quality. Why do you think in most parts of the world people want an American made Car?
You sound bitter, and I doubt there is a vehicle made that you would find pleases you. Well maybe a YOUGO?
farout
Should Ford and GM be punished for Chrysler's misdeeds???? I don't know, but it seems logical enough if the experience with Chrylser was bad enough that all relatives are boycotted as well, and the closest relatives to Chrysler are Ford & GM.
It's not just my opinion, CR continually shows that Chrysler makes the lowest scoring vehicles, with the most black dots of any manufacturer, on the whole.
$5,000 rebates aren't entirely ridiculous, I think some SUV's, Saabs, and Tundra's (even Toyota) have offered them, at least at some point in the past.
Actually, most people in the world don't want American cars, but the one's that do, want them due to a few reasons:
1) the US companies chose to not make lemons and/or worse on other Continents
2) the US companies chose to make higher quality, better built vehicles on other Continents to the American versions.
3) the US companies price their vehicles better in other countries.
4) They use better materials and fit & finish, with better design and engineering
5) In South America, were value matters due to poor countries and people, you see nothing but Toyota's & Nissans (at least 90% of what I saw). All the cabs were Toyotas.
I actually have found vehicles that please me very much. 2 out of the 3 new cars I've purchased have been wonderful and I'm extremely happy with them. The one new car that didn't work out whatsoever was the Chrysler. The two that have:
2003 Honda Accord V6 Coupe
2006 Audi A3 2.0T DSG
These cars have been between "Semi-trouble-free" and "virtually trouble free". A Japanese and German car are both 100% able to please me, 1 for 1 each.
The Audi has actually been the most reliable, dependable, and least troubling of them all. The Honda was great but had a lot of "little issues." Nothing that stranded me or required a tow truck however. The Chrysler (under their Dodge name) was the opposite of trouble-free, it was trouble-Full!! It was nothing but trouble. 0 for 1 for the domestics, and yes, Ford and GM get collateral damage from the EXTREMISM of Chryslers failings. If it had only been bad, and not miserably bad, only Chrysler would have lost my business for life.
Honda had it's issues with a first year design but at least they stand behind their product and extend warranties when needed.
Total repair bill for 65K miles on the HOnda is 0.00 dollars. Total repair bill for the Audi at 39K miles currently, zero dollars (still under warranty).
Total repair and tow truck costs of the Dodge for the 65K miles I kept it????? Wow, hard to remember an exact number, but it easily comes close to the $5K rebate I'm proposing Chrysler offer for their new vehicles.
You just can not just forget failures.
Regards,
OW
What is more annoying than that is all the little things that were NEVER fixed properly.
I still don't think it was a terrible car. As I started doing my own maintenance the cost to own dropped considerably and it had good fuel economy. It was also easy to get parts for when required. I just wasn't overly impressed with it.
I guess I feel the same way with the '07, just not overly impressed, although the value side of the equation was there. It is about as bland and soulless a transportation pod as one could ask for, while having no features other than a "reputation" to distinguish in its field.
I am just happy I don't have any bad experiences or ridiculous grudges to carry around as I shop for a vehicle and I can actually just pick the one that best meets my needs.
Definitely eager to shop for reliability going forward...with my memory intact.
Regards,
OW
Oh, a couple of other things, I think as Honda switched over to more environmentally friendly paint processes, the quality of their finishes has suffered. For how babied my car is, it has an inordinate number of small scratches. I think the metal is thinner as well as it seems door-ding prone.
I wish the handling was a little more responsive and the tires were a little more performance oriented as opposed to Buick oriented, but I am a niche market.
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I would be willing to try the Malibu soon but beware first year models!
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
And on the other hand, even if your old '93 Honda was problematic, it doesn't sound nearly as problematic as my '95 Dodge, not even the same ballpark. Also, their were good points to your old Honda, such as high gas mileage. The '95 Dodge had no good points other than being a fairly decent $13K ride with pretty good roominess while it ran. The problem is that it often didn't run, but was in the shop. Also, the performance was lackluster while returning unacceptable gas mileage for that lackluster performance. It was simply an inefficent lemon, you couldn't even make much lemonade from it
The final straw of course, was the inevitable and miserable resale value. You either pay through the roof in depreciation, or pay through the roof to keep it running longer. See, the thing is your Honda may have been the bad apple, but since that is uncommon you had high resale value. Since Chrysler making something other than a lemon is uncommon, I suffered terrible resale value. The dollar speaks!
I don't have a problem with that at all, although given your history I do find it interesting you bought an Audi, one of the few cars ranked beneath Chrysler by certain folks who do those types of ratings. That non-withstanding, I think you are right about speaking with your feet and your wallet. I think that if I had been done wrong by someone, I wouldn't want to do business with them again (although I probably wouldn't write off the whole country).
I think you obviously realize that there is little chance of Cerberus group offering you anything for a lemon made 15 years and 3 companies ago, but if that is the mantra you subscribe to, I don't have an issue. I just feel fortunate not to have had an experience like yours with our Caravan or any of our other cars.
That said, if you would like to replace your '03 Accord coupe with a lovely '07 EX sedan with a nice fuel saving 5 speed manual, let me know
After 2 years and 21,000 miles, I sold it for $11,500...only $500 less than I paid for it, and it was in top-notch condition, tight as a drum...this was my first experience with imports, right in the middle of 15 years of American made junk (1970-1985)...
All I can say is this...my Hondas were solid automobiles, what the Big 3 was incapable of making, and what the union would never make... because on the Honda, someone actually cared if it was put together correctly, simply because the difference between my Hondas and my previous Big 3 cars was night and day...my Pontiac Ventura had the dashboard out of alignment over two inches, which was made by an incompetent union line worker (is there any other kind?)...
I have returned to the Big 3 because I hope they are better...no question, they ARE better now than the 70s and 80s, but they still do not seem as rock-solid as my Hondas...
Regards,
OW
I am glad they were solid for 2 years, because after that, I have found they turn into rattle boxes. Our '93 Civic and our '93 Accord both had enough rattles to give me a headache after 45 minutes of driving. I replaced a lot of plastic clips over the cars' lives.
I do agree that the emissions control era (1975-1985 or so) was a very dark time for the domestic manufacturers. I think the game changed a bit with the new Taurus of '86 (basically a Honda Accord mated with an Audi 5000) and that helped establish Ford, Chrysler had the mini-van and i am not sure about GM.
Anytime I traded a car, I was always glad to be rid of it...these two Hondas were so well made, and worked so well for so long, that I kept them 13 and 10 years because I never thought I could ever buy another car as good as they were...
So far, I'm correct...
With few exceptions, the people I know who had American cars (not trucks or SUVs) built during that timeframe would have been thrilled if their only worry had been rattles and squeaks.
Hondas were MUCH better built than comparable 1990s American cars. Today the gap is much smaller, but it's still there.
The Nash was a weekend driver and not the fastback 4dr model--however it was an I-8 w/dual ignition, tranny was 3 speed w/overdrive. The car was a beautiful black 4dr with tons of comfort and cruised effortlessly @ 80, returning 20 mpg..
The other driver during the war was a Packard, late 30s vintage belonged to grandparent who didn't drive..So we occasionly had it out for exercise..
Remember the first synthetic tire we had on the LaSalle for .,.it exploded after about 800 miles, not a shred of tire left on the rim..Back to the recaps..
When the Korean War started I remember my father immediately bought 50 tires as a hedge against possible shortages..I couldn't ruin tires quick enough trying to use up the inventory.
The aforementioned cars got us thru the war years with great reliabilty and smooth motoring..They aways went the distance for we made the 180 mile trip to the farm every week during the summer and twice monthly the balance of the year..
My second Chrysler offering was a new 66 Cuda w/273 Hi-po V-8 w/4bbl carb, Blue Streak tires and racing stripes down the center..Nice car, nothing great and traded in after 90k miles on a new 68 Impala 2dr fastback V-8..
The other was a Valiant I bought for the wife-slant six..no problems..Wifey also got the Cuda for a few months before I traded it in..
My son just purchased a 08 Chrysler Hemi after 7 Caddies, his choice..
Cartoonish end? yes, but that's what it sounded like. Every new rattle made me hate Chrysler even more for putting such a piece of ***T on the market.
My 03 HOnda had some very minor issues with rattles, but they were fixed upon telling HOnda about them. Car was rock solid at 65K miles when I sold it for 53% of my out the door costs (it was 50 months old too) not bad at all!!! Sorry, don't have it to trade for your 07; had to take advantage of that great resale from Honda so I could afford the Audi.
Actually, I think your getting your Audi reliability statistics from the 80's, because if you look at recent ratings, Audi surpassed many an automaker by 2002, and has shown continual improvement year after year, to where they are average or better on most all models by 2007. Audi had had a quality control program in place now for years, and it's worked! VW has not done the same, and it shows! Audi's gone up, VW remains in Chrsysler's ball park, but at least my families '87 Jetta reached 100K miles, the Dodge wouldn't have reached that for less than $10K I imagine.
It's Cerberus' right and choice not to meet my demands to win me as a customer again, or simply win me back. It is my right and choice to not be a Cerberus customer until they do. I don't care if they don't care. I don't give a rat's behind if they ever decide to win customers back, because there are other more competent automakers in the world.
Chrysler serves as an excellent example of why captalism is better than socialism, if the US was more capitalist, and less socialiest when it comes to US automakers, then Chrsyler would have been history long before the lemons of the 90's. Maybe some other company could have taken Chrysler's spot as the #3 US automaker, and maybe that company would have been more competent in making automobiles. Sometimes, without death, there can be no real progress. Evolution was stunted in America.
Instead of survival of the fittest, we have "Survival of the Weak"
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
That wouldn't take much, considering their competition....
Now THAT's a good one!!!!
GM seems to be pulling it together, at least as far as test reviewers are concerned (for the most part, not always on all models). However, whether they are making good cars that don't last, remains to be seen.
In a few more years time we'll know if they are making good cars that do last.
Ford's cars are all pretty boring to me, and seem to handle like tanks (not good), but I like the Fusion's reliability rankings so far (all short term of course so far).
Can't really argue with you generally, however, specifically, I would prefer some American 90's cars to the Hondas......for specific reasons. Know what I mean? And I'm talking < 100,000 miles too.
The 08 Hondas are clearly an upgrade from the past models and are dearly loved by most auto magazine testers, but I will stay the course with the GM and probably jump on the Ford bandwagon for a Mustang GT..
My favorite gas pump was finally fixed and I had to pay the going price..My MPG went to 19.51 from 29.00. My houseguest's mileage on her 2002 Camary went to 33.50 from the normal 23.. Oh-well back to normal..
BUT, and this is a big but (play on words...), I believe the number of folks who shared my experience far outweighs those who shared your experience, because the imports would not have been gaining market share since, oh, about 1985, if they shared your experience, which, to me, validates my opinion that there are a lot of folks who simply think imports are better...are they right???...that is always a matter of opinion...
But, in increasing numbers, they have been putting their hard-earned money down on Toy, Honda and Nissan, and less on GM, Ford and Chrysler, almost every year since 1985...
While the market does not actually determine quality, the market DOES measure what the buyers think is quality, if you simply assume that the average person will buy something that they believe is good, and rationally avoid something they believe is bad...
And if their experience is anything like mine, then you will understand in a heartbeat why Big 3 sales have been waning, and imports have been on a steady rise for almost 30 years...
Americans have spoken, and they do not believe, in great numbers, that Big 3 cars represent the best value or quality...if they did, the imports would wither away like Yugo...
Thanks,
Chintan Talati
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I honestly hope they make it but for now, I will stay in importsville.
Regards,
OW
I don't think your Hondas were just the best cars you've owned, I think that the 88 Legend was one of the best cars ever made. I think the '86 Legend, when it came out, was so revolutionary, it created the whole near-lux sport sedan category. I think we had to wait until the 1995-99 BMW M3 came out for something as revolutionary. And I don't think anything since then has been as big a paradigm shift.
But, in increasing numbers, they have been putting their hard-earned money down on Toy, Honda and Nissan, and less on GM, Ford and Chrysler, almost every year since 1985...
I don't think Honda (or Toyota) evolved at the same pace after that. I feel like the domestics have more/less caught the Japanese competition with respect to reliability and some design aspects.
And if their experience is anything like mine, then you will understand in a heartbeat why Big 3 sales have been waning, and imports have been on a steady rise for almost 30 years...
Actually, Big 3 sales haven't been waning as much across all categories. They were doing great in trucks and SUVs, they just didn't really spend their profits wisely on developing more fuel efficient vehicles.
Of course now, Focus sales are way up, the Astra is starting to kick in, the Malibu and Fusion are competitive entries into the market, etc.
Americans have spoken, and they do not believe, in great numbers, that Big 3 cars represent the best value or quality...if they did, the imports would wither away like Yugo...
As amusing as your doomsday account is, you imply its a done deal, there is no hope, the entire domestic automobile industry might as well pack it up and go home. I don't see that as accurate. I see Ford making a comeback (if not in market share, at least in profitability), and GM is trying with decent new product.
I think the people will buy what is best for them, and I think they are smart enough to realize when the playing field is more level.
Technically, you ae certainlt right in that Big 3 did not lose in all categories...I am not getting that specific in my broad statement, I am just saying that imports have been growing in overall market share at the expense of the Big 3, simply because, rightly or wrongly, many folks believe imports are better overall...and yes, I do not expect the Big 3 to blow away, altho Ford's debt may eventually kill them if their models do not sell enough...
Your specific points are correct, but I was painting with a broad brush, and while the Japanese were upstarts in the 70s and early 80s, by 1985 or so, it was evident that their cars were, overall, NOT junk...
That reputation is growing in the last 15 years, Big 3 are still playing catch-up, and American cars do not have, to borrow a legal phrase, a "presumption of quality"...it does seem that anytime an American car is reviewed as "solidly built" or "high quality", people are often surprised, as the American (union) product is simply not assumed to be the quality vehicle, not when the imports now have about 50% of the overalll market share...
Where is the improvement? MAP Sensor 2005. Power Steering Pump 2006, A/C condenser 2007? Come on. These should last beyond five years. The truck has 58K miles and has been through $3,000 in repair. The MAP sensor took 4 visits and a Lemon Law filing for before they concentrated their efforts by linking up directly with GM in Detroit for correct diagnostics before they could isolate the stall condition to the MAP sensor. It took the dealer 5 attempts to correctly upgrade On-Star from Analog to Digital. I finally got a loaner on the last attempt for that one. When you live these issues, it's hard to just assume the next GM will be perfect.
You install junk parts and quality will NEVER improve. The entire system from Corporate on through the entire supply chain with all of its problems needs to change.
Regards,
OW
Technically, you ae certainlt right in that Big 3 did not lose in all categories...I am not getting that specific in my broad statement, I am just saying that imports have been growing in overall market share at the expense of the Big 3, simply because, rightly or wrongly, many folks believe imports are better overall...and yes, I do not expect the Big 3 to blow away, altho Ford's debt may eventually kill them if their models do not sell enough...
I think that has a lot to do with the decision of the domestics to concentrate on trucks more than cars. I think the 1986 Taurus was a major game changer (on the same level as the Legend, but in a different market segment), but in the late 90s, with Explorer sales putting Ford's kids through college, they forgot about it, along with the Escort and Crown Vic.
They had to spend the next 10 years remembering how to make cars, borrowing from European partners, and working on drivetrains. All the people that bought Windstars with 3.8l head gasket issues or the A4OD transmission issues were pretty turned off. I don't know if Ford will ever win them back.
That said, the Focus is selling so well they have had to add additional shifts at the plants, the Fusion and Milan have had great reliability (not that its something to brag about, but its something that lets them come to the table), and even silly consumer magazines that rate dishwashers like the new Fords. I think they are wining customers from younger age groups, and folks that like a comeback/underdog story.
I think GM is in a similar situation, they are borrowing Australian and European cars to complete their line ups (but perhaps making the wrong decisions about what engines to bring over - the Astra should have the option of some tiny engine and get a million MPG, like the Aveo but less of a penalty box). I find their midsize sedans competitive in the class (maybe not class leading, but they are competitive in each category), and I do like the sound of that 3.6 they stick in all the "new world" designs.
When they get through this, and actually make a sport sedan, I will be happy to look at their offerings, and given Ford's plan to propagate EcoBoost, I think I won't have to wait too long.
You install junk parts and quality will NEVER improve. The entire system from Corporate on through the entire supply chain with all of its problems needs to change.
It sounds more like the dealer network needs to change. While equally anecdotal, in 10 years of routine visits, my then local Honda dealer (Santa Barbabra Honda) couldn't resolve a sticky passenger side rear door (sometimes it would open, sometimes not..the latch needed to be adjusted and lock-tighted), or the musty smell from the AC system on a 1993 Accord. The highlight though was when they left the oil drain plug off of my then gf now wife's car.
The local Lincoln Mercury dealer (where I bought by Contour, used) took great care of me, as did the Ford dealer in San Luis Obispo and in Freemont (although the actually Ford dealer in SB was not as well respected). Even in Michigan, Ford and L-M dealers have been great. I can't complain about the service from the local Subaru or Honda dealer in Michigan either.
The dealer network is a weak link probably for all of the manufacturers. I have never resaerched the Japanese since the last Toyota I owned eas a Tercel in 1982 that was bulllet proof except for the timing chain at around 80K miles. How could you complain with 30 MPG back then and the space to change it out yourself just added to the economy of ownership.
Some dealers do it better than others. I know the BPG dealer in my town picked up huge business from a dealer that closed about 20 miles away. That does not change the capability equation. I can tell you the BMW dealer I used for the last 3 years has been the best experience for me. Others on the BMW forum have had very bad experiences around the country, however.
So, for the next family bus, we are heavily considering the Highlander over the Enclave just form the first year reports on the M&R forums. When you compare just these, the quality balance is anecdotal but typical non the less.
Regards,
Ow