Yeah, I just got an e-mail from "The GM Team" about their celebrating paying back the loan and making the BEST CARS IN THE WORLD.
We are proud to announce we have repaid our government loan – in full, with interest, five years ahead of the original schedule. We realize we still have more to do. Our goal is to exceed every expectation you've set for us. We're designing, building and selling the best cars and trucks in the world. Like the award-winning Chevy Malibu, the all-new Buick LaCrosse, the versatile Cadillac CTS Sport Wagon and the innovative GMC Terrain, just to name a few. We invite you to learn more about the new GM and join our community, by visiting gm.com.
Susan E. Docherty Vice President, U.S. Marketing
I needed a good laugh and I responded to their eager marketing try by giving them some feedback regarding continuing to try to BS the pants off the automotive consumers in the USA.
Susan, you need to relax until ALL of the money is returned to the taxpayers.
But the loan money is only a fraction of the cash that the federal government gave to GM over the past 12 months to stop it from going out of business. Overall, GM received $50 billion in federal help, with the government receiving $2 billion in preferred stock and 61% of the company's privately held common shares in return for the rest of the money.
Treasury will not be able to recover most of the money it has given the automaker until it has an initial public offering of its shares. Whitacre said the company is too far away from an IPO to have any kind of timetable for an offering as yet.
Going shopping for a Hyundai...is that more "American" than buying a GM, Ford, or Chrysler (using the window sticker and parts content label for information while shopping)?
I never saw such glee in hoping the American companies fail.
Where does this come from?
Yes, they were arrogant. Yes they built bad products. So did Hyundai..big time. Guys like you most likely think someone is dumb for considering a Big Three brand. Guys like me think guys like you are stuck in old-school thinking although you probably think you are 'enlightened'.
If you won't buy a domestic because of a bad experience twenty or more years ago, think about this way...what would any of us have thought about a guy who wouldn't have bought a new Mustang in '65 because his '41 Ford was bad? Right..we'd have considered the guy a dinosaur.
Bill
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
If you won't buy a domestic because of a bad experience twenty or more years ago...
Try 2003. I am not enlightened more than anyone. Just making it real.
By the way, I do not think ANYONE is dumb or wrong for buying a GM, Ford or Chrysler. I believe everyone should be happy with their purchase, whatever brand.
I also think GM and C should not be around right now. They destroyed themselves.
But things are looking up for them in China. See??? I am thinking current right now!!!
Over the next year, GM and its Chinese auto partner, Shanghai Automotive Industry Corp., will roll out 25 new or upgraded models to try to capture more of the growing Chinese market.
That's a smart move. The auto industry is global, and where money is made isn't important anymore. What matters is building good, quality products to boost sales everywhere.
When that happens, GM will become an attractive investment again and be able to rid itself of the 60.8 percent equity stake the U.S. government has in the company and the remaining $43 billion still invested in GM. While full repayment is not likely to happen anytime soon, GM has shown that it is aggressively trying to right its ship and again become a global powerhouse. That bodes well for Detroit. (They meant Beijing, I'm sure!!) :shades:
I never saw such glee in hoping the American companies fail.
Uh, GM and C ALREADY failed.....
Yes, they were arrogant. Yes they built bad products. So did Hyundai..big time.
The difference is that Hyundai pulled themselves up, by themselves. I'd also say that their recent performance is head and shoulders above that of GM. They are being far more aggressive and innovative than GM.
Guys like you most likely think someone is dumb for considering a Big Three brand.
I actually think considering Ford (as opposed to C or GM) is a great idea.
I suspect that if you dig around, you'll find plenty of government support for Hyundai too. And not just by the Korean government - Hyundai has been getting some kind of help or tax breaks from the Indian government, the Canadian government, the Czech Republic and probably every other place where they have a manufacturing or design facility.
I feel for you. 2006 would make it even longer for you to return to GM, if ever.
The problem with pro-GM marketing is that EVEN NOW the claim is they make the best cars in the world. This leads me to believe nothing really changed at the basic level of honesty as well as the fact that even with 67 billion dollars, a failed company doesn't change in 1 year.
Well, you need no shovel to prove GM failed, now, do you?
Hyundai cars were horrible. Now they aren't.
GM had the world by the horns. Now, they do not. The marketing at GM is simply unbelievable and it's hard to keep a straight face. Sure, they finally started making a few good cars but the best in the world??
With the exception of the Impala and Cobalt (soon to be replaced, even though I thoroughly enjoy my '08 XFE--an outstanding value with A/C, ABS, satellite radio, and four doors, at $9,900 after my $2K in GM card rebate--there isn't a single Chevy product, anyway, that is still available that was in '06. To paint with such a broad brush about product quality is not very balanced. Google 'Hyundai' and there are plenty of complaints on the internet out there...as there are about GM products. Difference is, I'm not saying all Hyundais are crap and all GM's are great. I happen to prefer domestic styling better than Korean, and I think in the big picture it's smarter and better to buy from an American company, despite all the 'world economy' b*llsh*t out there.
Bill
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I suspect that if you dig around, you'll find plenty of government support for Hyundai too. And not just by the Korean government - Hyundai has been getting some kind of help or tax breaks from the Indian government, the Canadian government, the Czech Republic and probably every other place where they have a manufacturing or design facility.
Perhaps, but show me some evidence that Hyundai ever received cash that even remotely approaches the $50billion FAILURE of GM.
If we're going to show the Sonata, can we at least show how it looks in reality, and not that photoshop job which makes it look better than in real life, IMO?
The first sign that Chevy, and GM for that matter was heading in a different new direction was the 2008 Malibu. Though even with that redesign it still couldn't save them from the bring of needing billions in bailouts, and then subsequent bankruptcy. It hasn't even been a year yet since they got all those loans and declared bankruptcy, which was May or June of 2009 I think, yet there are many people on here who act as if all this time has passed and GM is super great and on top of the world again.
Nope, I'm sorry it just doesn't work like that or that quickly. Its really only been 1 maybe 2 years if you include the Malibu redesign since the company restructured and redefined itself. That is very recent still and even 2006 was only 4 years ago. A company that had that so many poor products for so many years does not just completely turn around in 1 year. I've said this again and again, models like the Malibu, LaCrosse, Volt, etc are nice indicators that GM might have finally gotten the message but but but, and this is a big but, we have to wait until these new models long term reliabilities hold up to see if GM has really turned the corner. I'm talking what they will be like at 5-7 years old, and we are no where need that yet.
People need to be patient and it will come.
By the way, Chrysler is dead to me. They still are struggling after all the money and bankruptcy we gave to them and they still suck. I'm tired of hearing excuse after excuse about that company. They need to die!
Smarty , I am still surprised--why do folks still buy GM or Chrysler.. For March 2010 GM had 188k sales,Ford 185k and Chrysler 95k --compared to the [non-permissible content removed] 3 of T/H/N= 180k,110k,90k.. :confuse: :shades:
Chrysler has more sales than Nissan/Hyundai ...Just beats me, baffles me.. Why would anyone buy a Chrysler above [non-permissible content removed] 3, Ford or Hyundai ?? Truck and Minivan sales must be good, I guess !! :P
Keep in mind that fleet sales still dominate a huge part of the detroit big 3 sales per month compared to their japanese, german, and korean competitors. Chrysler still has over 50% fleet sales each month, while GM and Ford to a lesser but still big extent! Here is a great article below as to why I want Chrysler to die!
".....Smarty , I am still surprised--why do folks still buy GM or Chrysler.. For March 2010 GM had 188k sales,Ford 185k and Chrysler 95k --compared to the [non-permissible content removed] 3 of T/H/N= 180k,110k,90k.. "
Look at the ones that ARE selling. The Lacrosse, Equinox/Terrain, SRX, and Malibu are carrying the torch for GM. Ford has the Fusion, Focus, and revitalized Taurus leading the way.
Lets not forget that companies are starting to purchase vehicles again, so truck sales are beginning to rebound, and the full sized trucks are noty a Japanese high point.
"......Keep in mind that fleet sales still dominate a huge part of the detroit big 3 sales per month compared to their japanese, german, and korean competitors. Chrysler still has over 50% fleet sales each month, while GM and Ford to a lesser but still big extent! Here is a great article below as to why I want Chrysler to die!"
My wife's cousin just purchased a 2010 Malibu. While we were searching for a vehicle, she was considering a used vehicle. What was amazing was the number of off fleet cars that were maybe 18 months old with 30-40,000 miles on them!!! The rental car companies are buying right now, and that IS a good thing. They desperately need to freshen up their aging fleet, and will buy from somebody. I suppose you think they should buy from Hyundai??? If they did, would you complain about them being a rental whore or beat your chest some more about how they are gaining sales?
Not to mention, their are companies as well as government that are purchasing new vehicles for their fleets as well. These are vehicles that, in general, never make it to a dealer's used car lot, as they are kept for over 100,000 miles, and in the case of police vehicles, generally get recycled within a municipality in a different department. Those aren't "bad" sales
I had given a rough estimate --but the point I was making was that Chrysler has sales numbers similar to Nissan with its quality nowhere close.. 50% fleet sales??? Damn,that`s a lot.. What not just be named-Chrysler Rental !! :shades:
And the remaining 50 % must have huge rebates ! And Fiat is going to save Chrysler ..This is getting ridiculous ! :P
How can a company in BK produce quality and reliable cars?? Just not possible. If it were, they would not be BK in the 1st place. The GM cars you mention are good-- Good not relative to the competition but rather to GM`s own previous models. Like the 07 Malibu to the 06 one.. But it is still way behind Camcordima/Sonata.
GM/C have health care costs. So there is an added $2k-3k expense on each car they sell. And they cant sell it higher than others.Then they give rebates.. How will they ever profit?? It`s a vicious cycle.. We are just prolonging its agony..They will never ever be profitable nor repay the combined $80 billion..Sheesh ,what a waste of money !!! :sick:
You don't seem to understand, its good for the rental car companies but every financial expert I've read said having those kinds of fleet sales do not help the manufacturers because they make no where near as much money on rental fleet sales then consumer and company sales.
They do buy from Hyundai so I don't know what your talking about. I didn't say the foreign companies have no fleet sales so lets not make something out of something I didn't say. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan have fleet sales as well but they are very low percentage to their total sales unlike GM, Ford, and especially Chrysler! That is all I'm saying! Forget Chrysler, but how are Ford and GM ever going to be on top when they depend so much on fleet sales each month? Have a huge junk of your cars as rental fleet fodder does nothing to help your resale values since they get beat to crap!
In foreign makes,Hyun/Kia have the highest% fleet sales followed by Toyota/ nissan. Honda has virtually no fleet sales. I have never seen a Honda at any car rental place--either at the airports or downtown.. Most of the rental cars are Chevys/Fords/Dodge /Lincoln Towncar and Hyun/Kia. :P
And ya,,fleet sales are highly profitable. No wonder GM/C are so healthy !!
".....How can a company in BK produce quality and reliable cars?? Just not possible. If it were, they would not be BK in the 1st place. The GM cars you mention are good-- Good not relative to the competition but rather to GM`s own previous models. Like the 07 Malibu to the 06 one.. But it is still way behind Camcordima/Sonata. "
Gee, how can that be??? My Lacrosse, built IN BK, has been next to FLAWLESS!!! ALL the rags agree it is better than an ES350. I find it amazing that MT rates the Camry better than the Malibu, when C&D rated it (and the Aura) BETTER than the Camry. Not to mention, Lacrosse, Equinox, and SRX sales are astronomically better than they were last year.
I'm not saying GM was on solid footing 2 yrs ago. They weren't. But late in '08, Cerberus (speaking of Chrysler, remember them) majority stakeholder in GMAC, dried up GM's credit in trying to leverage GM into "buying" Chrysler (speaking of which, let's not forget MB's role in THAT debacle......AMAZING how they seem to skate on that one). This action caused GM to go through a MASSIVE cash burn in the 4th qtr. of '08. This, coupled with the crash in general, caused an early bankruptcy. Let's not forget, Ford isn't out of the woods yet, either. They mortgaged $39 billion (which they still owe) in their property. The banks (yeah, remember them crooks???) couldn't(wouldn't) do the same for GM.
"......GM/C have health care costs. So there is an added $2k-3k expense on each car they sell. And they cant sell it higher than others.Then they give rebates.. How will they ever profit??"
That gap has closed significantly thanks to the VEBA. As far as rebates, GM's gap 2 yrs ago was over 3 times what Toyota's was (about $4700 per vehicle for GM to Toy's $1500) Today, GM is down to about $3700, while Toyota is UP to about $2600. That alone means GM is taking in about $2100 MORE per car today than it was 2 yrs ago as opposed to Toyota.
I've said this again and again, models like the Malibu, LaCrosse, Volt, etc are nice indicators that GM might have finally gotten the message but but but, and this is a big but, we have to wait until these new models long term reliabilities hold up to see if GM has really turned the corner.
...even you have swallowed the Kool-Aid. The Volt is a long way from demonstrating any kind of success. It has been a 5 year marketing exercise while GM scrambled to put a program together. This is the GM we've known and loved.... promise everything, delay, and then mostly the products were very disappointing. Perhaps the Volt will be different, but we don't know yet.
"...... but how are Ford and GM ever going to be on top when they depend so much on fleet sales each month? Have a huge junk of your cars as rental fleet fodder does nothing to help your resale values since they get beat to crap!"
Yes, it is risky. But it is a double edged sword. If GM/F/C don't sell to the rental companies, who will?
I happen to prefer domestic styling better than Korean, and I think in the big picture it's smarter and better to buy from an American company, despite all the 'world economy' b*llsh*t out there.
You think it's smarter and better, than that it is....just not for me at the moment.
AFAIC, GM will need 3-4 more years to prove current manufacturing is indeed better than pre-C-11. The styling isn't even close to the competition, save the LaCrosse and the EXTERIOR of the 'Vette for my taste. I'll buy American when the b*llsh*t stops spewing from the GM marketing engine and the products speak for themselves.
If you don't think the Hyundai marketing is better than ANYTHING coming out of Detroit, well........
I haven't drank the Kool-Aid, I have no intention of being in anything from GM for quite some time, maybe never, depending on how things go over the next decade or so, but I would never be in a volt for the price point GM is talking about right now! There are far more cheaper, reliable, and well proven hybrids on the road right now that I would get before that Volt!
GM did what your talking about with the Camaro. They brag and brag and gave a whole bunch of information on the Camaro since 2005 and waited almost 5 years till it hit the market. That gave Ford and others time to improve upon the Mustang, etc and so far the Camaro has had its [non-permissible content removed] handed to it by the Mustang in every comparison test I have read to date!
and GM, c-mon, build the damn Camaro ( an American legendary muscle car ) in the US and not in freakin Canada huh! :mad:
so far the Camaro has had its [non-permissible content removed] handed to it by the Mustang in every comparison test I have read to date!
You're kidding, right? I've never seen a comparo where the Camaro didn't top both the Mustang and Challenger. In fact, the Camaro is outselling the Mustang which is a first in a long, long time.
Bill
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Furthermore...while I wish the Camaro was built in the U.S., GM products for sale in the U.S. have been manufactured in Canada for decades. Growing up around a Chevy dealer in the '70's, the occasional Chevelle and Monte Carlo would show up from Oshawa, ON, and the Monzas came from St. Therese, Quebec, as did the Camaros from '93-02. They are UAW there. Conversely, Ford's current mainsteam, bread-and-butter sedan, the Fusion, is made in Mexico. Not saying Mexico can't build a quality product, but talk about going in through the back door! I never saw a domestic vehicle built in Mexico until NAFTA passed...sadly...IMHO one of the worst things to ever happen in this country.
Bill
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
".......Furthermore...while I wish the Camaro was built in the U.S., GM products for sale in the U.S. have been manufactured in Canada for decades."
Yes, McLaughlins were Canadian built Buicks for the first half of the last century. One other thing. Canadians buy the cars they build, Mexicans don't, unless you cound the old Beetle.
Jan. 6 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. auto sales plunged 36 percent in December, dragging the industry’s volume in 2008 to a 16-year low as the recession ravaged demand. General Motors Corp.’s annual total was the smallest in its home market since 1959.
As a result GM (General Motors) market share declined from 42 percent in 1985 ... Even though US auto decline was already set on years ago, but 2005 proved fatal.
Following the September 11, 2001 attacks, a severe stock market decline ... GM stock began the year 2006 at $19 a share, near its lowest level since 1982, Now bankrupt in 2009.
Mar 31, 2009 ... Today GM's market share is little more than 20%,
GM kinda sounds like a POS to me..... Tell me I'm wrong.
thats an excuse; don't ever whine and complain then about the foreign automakers who have plants and build cars in this country then! Canada and Mexico are not the US, not matter how close they are or how you try to paint it! we are paying for their economies as well as our own and the ones in Korea, Japan, and Germany!
You're kidding, right? I've never seen a comparo where the Camaro didn't top both the Mustang and Challenger. In fact, the Camaro is outselling the Mustang which is a first in a long, long time.
Camaro is better unless you actually need to look out of the windows.
Camaro outselling Mustang - well I hope so, it is about 4 years newer in design. Let's wait a year until the novelty wears off. How many blue collar hillbillies are there who could afford the payments? :P
Being that I'm employed (!), I don't look a lot at online reviews, but do look at newsstand comparos (of which there have been scores on the new Camaro and Mustang and Challenger in the past year). I didn't look very hard this a.m., but here's one from Motor Trend which disagrees with your assessment:
I do wish the Camaro was built in Van Nuys or Norwood, OH, like it used to be, but there is no disputing that the Big Three employ many, many more people, via the companies themselves as well as suppliers, than any foreign company that assembles here. Maybe it's a generational thing, I don't know, to care about that kind of stuff. I don't think assembling in Canada is the same as assembling in Mexico, or even assembling in the states when the company is headquartered in Korea. I know cars are better now than they used to be, but they are generally so devoid of character compared to the old days (pre-1980), that I'd quickly choose to go back to what cars were then...more than six colors available, more than gray, beige, or black interiors, and no way you'd see two identical cars on the road yet sitting next to each other on a new car lot....I miss the individual options you could combine at will.
Sigh.
Bill
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I too, had been under the impression that the Camaro was pretty much the top ranked choice when it came to these new age pony/musclecars. But the competition sure isn't standing still...well, with the exception of the Challenger, I guess. :sick:
I didn't realize the Mustang got a new V-6 and had improved so much for 2011. And Hyundai seems to have come out of nowhere with the new Genesis.
... there is no disputing that the Big Three employ many, many more people, via the companies themselves as well as suppliers, than any foreign company that assembles here.
By that reasoning, we are rewarding inefficiency. They can't support, profitably, that many workers. It's as if we complained that tractors have displaced all the farm workers who could be harvesting wheat with machetes.
Part of the reason they employ more is that headquarters are here...not in Seoul or Tokyo.
I am guessing you are younger than me (early 50's). Where I grew up, there was a good bit of heavy industry, even for a small town. Most all is gone now. Is it more efficient to manufacture in Mexico? I'm sure it is, what with wages there. Is it better for the U.S.? I don't see how anyone could argue that.
Bill
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Is it more efficient to manufacture in Mexico? I'm sure it is, what with wages there. Is it better for the U.S.? I don't see how anyone could argue that.
I guess one upshot is that in theory, if the wages are lower, then that makes the overall cost to manufacture the product lower, and in theory should make it sell for a lower price. Unfortunately the reality is that the product probably gets sold for the same price, and the fat-cat CEOs pocket the difference.
I don't know how long it'll be a good idea to manufacture in Mexico with that country coming apart by the seams. The place is wracked with unbelievable violence perpetrated by powerful drug cartels. They are firing upon senior government officials in armored vehicles with 50-caliber machine guns.
Very true. If prices were affected by manufacturing costs, I should be able to buy an average-quality dress shirt for 50 cents and a good one for two dollars. A pair of Nikes should be about $5.
Nike has the buying the sizzle formula down pat. Get a two dollar shoe, put a basketball star's name on it and sell it for $150.
I don't see how the Mexican plants can end well. We've already seen how we bought so much junk from China that they now have bought up all our debt. Last thing we need is the same thing from Mexico. Maybe they'll buy Texas back....
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Part of the reason they employ more is that headquarters are here...not in Seoul or Tokyo.
Most of the employees you referred to are not HQ staff -- they are assembly workers and suppliers.
I am guessing you are younger than me (early 50's). Where I grew up, there was a good bit of heavy industry, even for a small town. Most all is gone now. Is it more efficient to manufacture in Mexico? I'm sure it is, what with wages there. Is it better for the U.S.? I don't see how anyone could argue that.
I'm actually around the same age as you. I may not like the changes, but change is a way of life. The 60's were far different from the 30's, too. We can embrace it and plot the best path, or we can try to resist. I don't see going backwards as an option. Getting more efficient will be critical for ANY automaker. That means the number of jobs is going to go down any way you slice it. Are those workers staying flexible with their skills? If not, they are going to have problems.
Very true. If prices were affected by manufacturing costs, I should be able to buy an average-quality dress shirt for 50 cents and a good one for two dollars. A pair of Nikes should be about $5.
Well, Nike is a marketing company. They probably spend more on marketing and developing their product than manufacturing it. Nike spends over 12% of revenue on marketing alone, which is an incredible amount. 3/4 of their sales are from outside the US, so they must be doing something right.
I may not like the changes, but change is a way of life
By chance, do you work in a Human Resources department?
Does anybody really think our change to a service economy is an improvement over when the country was rife with manufacturing, and not all that long ago? This all happened because of greed allowed to go unchecked, as in the Nike example above.
Bill
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I might add, I work in what folks would consider a tech industry, have a four-year degree, and make a good living, but I still think this country was a better place to live when even in a small town miles from an interstate, guys with just a high-school education could work in a mill or plant and make enough to buy a decent house and a new car every few years. Now, that's virtually impossible and I wouldn't call it progress.
Bill
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Comments
We are proud to announce we have repaid our government loan – in full, with interest, five years ahead of the original schedule. We realize we still have more to do. Our goal is to exceed every expectation you've set for us. We're designing, building and selling the best cars and trucks in the world. Like the award-winning Chevy Malibu, the all-new Buick LaCrosse, the versatile Cadillac CTS Sport Wagon and the innovative GMC Terrain, just to name a few. We invite you to learn more about the new GM and join our community, by visiting gm.com.
Susan E. Docherty
Vice President, U.S. Marketing
I needed a good laugh and I responded to their eager marketing try by giving them some feedback regarding continuing to try to BS the pants off the automotive consumers in the USA.
Susan, you need to relax until ALL of the money is returned to the taxpayers.
But the loan money is only a fraction of the cash that the federal government gave to GM over the past 12 months to stop it from going out of business. Overall, GM received $50 billion in federal help, with the government receiving $2 billion in preferred stock and 61% of the company's privately held common shares in return for the rest of the money.
Treasury will not be able to recover most of the money it has given the automaker until it has an initial public offering of its shares. Whitacre said the company is too far away from an IPO to have any kind of timetable for an offering as yet.
Failure Status - The Truth
Going shopping for a Hyundai now, Susan...read it and weep!!
Regards,
OW
I never saw such glee in hoping the American companies fail.
Where does this come from?
Yes, they were arrogant. Yes they built bad products. So did Hyundai..big time. Guys like you most likely think someone is dumb for considering a Big Three brand. Guys like me think guys like you are stuck in old-school thinking although you probably think you are 'enlightened'.
If you won't buy a domestic because of a bad experience twenty or more years ago, think about this way...what would any of us have thought about a guy who wouldn't have bought a new Mustang in '65 because his '41 Ford was bad? Right..we'd have considered the guy a dinosaur.
Bill
Try 2003. I am not enlightened more than anyone. Just making it real.
By the way, I do not think ANYONE is dumb or wrong for buying a GM, Ford or Chrysler. I believe everyone should be happy with their purchase, whatever brand.
I also think GM and C should not be around right now. They destroyed themselves.
But things are looking up for them in China. See??? I am thinking current right now!!!
Over the next year, GM and its Chinese auto partner, Shanghai Automotive Industry Corp., will roll out 25 new or upgraded models to try to capture more of the growing Chinese market.
That's a smart move. The auto industry is global, and where money is made isn't important anymore. What matters is building good, quality products to boost sales everywhere.
When that happens, GM will become an attractive investment again and be able to rid itself of the 60.8 percent equity stake the U.S. government has in the company and the remaining $43 billion still invested in GM. While full repayment is not likely to happen anytime soon, GM has shown that it is aggressively trying to right its ship and again become a global powerhouse. That bodes well for Detroit. (They meant Beijing, I'm sure!!) :shades:
China is Good to GM
They will be a Chinese company company shortly...
Now, back to the REAL meaning of buying American....great products, which Hyundai is producing far better than GM.
Regards,
OW
Uh, GM and C ALREADY failed.....
Yes, they were arrogant. Yes they built bad products. So did Hyundai..big time.
The difference is that Hyundai pulled themselves up, by themselves. I'd also say that their recent performance is head and shoulders above that of GM. They are being far more aggressive and innovative than GM.
Guys like you most likely think someone is dumb for considering a Big Three brand.
I actually think considering Ford (as opposed to C or GM) is a great idea.
The problem with pro-GM marketing is that EVEN NOW the claim is they make the best cars in the world. This leads me to believe nothing really changed at the basic level of honesty as well as the fact that even with 67 billion dollars, a failed company doesn't change in 1 year.
The P.R. is not working for me, Susan D.
Regards,
OW
Hyundai cars were horrible. Now they aren't.
GM had the world by the horns. Now, they do not. The marketing at GM is simply unbelievable and it's hard to keep a straight face. Sure, they finally started making a few good cars but the best in the world??
Regards,
OW
Bill
Perhaps, but show me some evidence that Hyundai ever received cash that even remotely approaches the $50billion FAILURE of GM.
That`s why it is GM- Govt/Goner Motors !! :P
Nope, I'm sorry it just doesn't work like that or that quickly. Its really only been 1 maybe 2 years if you include the Malibu redesign since the company restructured and redefined itself. That is very recent still and even 2006 was only 4 years ago. A company that had that so many poor products for so many years does not just completely turn around in 1 year. I've said this again and again, models like the Malibu, LaCrosse, Volt, etc are nice indicators that GM might have finally gotten the message but but but, and this is a big but, we have to wait until these new models long term reliabilities hold up to see if GM has really turned the corner. I'm talking what they will be like at 5-7 years old, and we are no where need that yet.
People need to be patient and it will come.
By the way, Chrysler is dead to me. They still are struggling after all the money and bankruptcy we gave to them and they still suck. I'm tired of hearing excuse after excuse about that company. They need to die!
Chrysler has more sales than Nissan/Hyundai ...Just beats me, baffles me.. Why would anyone buy a Chrysler above [non-permissible content removed] 3, Ford or Hyundai ?? Truck and Minivan sales must be good, I guess !! :P
1) GM (188,011)
2) Toyota (186,863)
3) Ford (178,188)
4) Honda (108,262)
5) Nissan (95,468)
6) Chrysler (92,623)
http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html
Keep in mind that fleet sales still dominate a huge part of the detroit big 3 sales per month compared to their japanese, german, and korean competitors. Chrysler still has over 50% fleet sales each month, while GM and Ford to a lesser but still big extent! Here is a great article below as to why I want Chrysler to die!
http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/10/news/companies/chrysler_customer_problems/index.- htm?eref=rss_topstories
Look at the ones that ARE selling. The Lacrosse, Equinox/Terrain, SRX, and Malibu are carrying the torch for GM. Ford has the Fusion, Focus, and revitalized Taurus leading the way.
Lets not forget that companies are starting to purchase vehicles again, so truck sales are beginning to rebound, and the full sized trucks are noty a Japanese high point.
My wife's cousin just purchased a 2010 Malibu. While we were searching for a vehicle, she was considering a used vehicle. What was amazing was the number of off fleet cars that were maybe 18 months old with 30-40,000 miles on them!!! The rental car companies are buying right now, and that IS a good thing. They desperately need to freshen up their aging fleet, and will buy from somebody. I suppose you think they should buy from Hyundai??? If they did, would you complain about them being a rental whore or beat your chest some more about how they are gaining sales?
Not to mention, their are companies as well as government that are purchasing new vehicles for their fleets as well. These are vehicles that, in general, never make it to a dealer's used car lot, as they are kept for over 100,000 miles, and in the case of police vehicles, generally get recycled within a municipality in a different department. Those aren't "bad" sales
And the remaining 50 % must have huge rebates ! And Fiat is going to save Chrysler ..This is getting ridiculous ! :P
GM/C have health care costs. So there is an added $2k-3k expense on each car they sell. And they cant sell it higher than others.Then they give rebates.. How will they ever profit?? It`s a vicious cycle.. We are just prolonging its agony..They will never ever be profitable nor repay the combined $80 billion..Sheesh ,what a waste of money !!! :sick:
They do buy from Hyundai so I don't know what your talking about. I didn't say the foreign companies have no fleet sales so lets not make something out of something I didn't say. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan have fleet sales as well but they are very low percentage to their total sales unlike GM, Ford, and especially Chrysler! That is all I'm saying! Forget Chrysler, but how are Ford and GM ever going to be on top when they depend so much on fleet sales each month? Have a huge junk of your cars as rental fleet fodder does nothing to help your resale values since they get beat to crap!
And ya,,fleet sales are highly profitable. No wonder GM/C are so healthy !!
Gee, how can that be??? My Lacrosse, built IN BK, has been next to FLAWLESS!!! ALL the rags agree it is better than an ES350. I find it amazing that MT rates the Camry better than the Malibu, when C&D rated it (and the Aura) BETTER than the Camry. Not to mention, Lacrosse, Equinox, and SRX sales are astronomically better than they were last year.
I'm not saying GM was on solid footing 2 yrs ago. They weren't. But late in '08, Cerberus (speaking of Chrysler, remember them) majority stakeholder in GMAC, dried up GM's credit in trying to leverage GM into "buying" Chrysler (speaking of which, let's not forget MB's role in THAT debacle......AMAZING how they seem to skate on that one). This action caused GM to go through a MASSIVE cash burn in the 4th qtr. of '08. This, coupled with the crash in general, caused an early bankruptcy. Let's not forget, Ford isn't out of the woods yet, either. They mortgaged $39 billion (which they still owe) in their property. The banks (yeah, remember them crooks???) couldn't(wouldn't) do the same for GM.
"......GM/C have health care costs. So there is an added $2k-3k expense on each car they sell. And they cant sell it higher than others.Then they give rebates.. How will they ever profit??"
That gap has closed significantly thanks to the VEBA. As far as rebates, GM's gap 2 yrs ago was over 3 times what Toyota's was (about $4700 per vehicle for GM to Toy's $1500) Today, GM is down to about $3700, while Toyota is UP to about $2600. That alone means GM is taking in about $2100 MORE per car today than it was 2 yrs ago as opposed to Toyota.
Regards,
OW
I've said this again and again, models like the Malibu, LaCrosse, Volt, etc are nice indicators that GM might have finally gotten the message but but but, and this is a big but, we have to wait until these new models long term reliabilities hold up to see if GM has really turned the corner.
...even you have swallowed the Kool-Aid. The Volt is a long way from demonstrating any kind of success. It has been a 5 year marketing exercise while GM scrambled to put a program together. This is the GM we've known and loved.... promise everything, delay, and then mostly the products were very disappointing. Perhaps the Volt will be different, but we don't know yet.
Yes, it is risky. But it is a double edged sword. If GM/F/C don't sell to the rental companies, who will?
You think it's smarter and better, than that it is....just not for me at the moment.
AFAIC, GM will need 3-4 more years to prove current manufacturing is indeed better than pre-C-11. The styling isn't even close to the competition, save the LaCrosse and the EXTERIOR of the 'Vette for my taste. I'll buy American when the b*llsh*t stops spewing from the GM marketing engine and the products speak for themselves.
If you don't think the Hyundai marketing is better than ANYTHING coming out of Detroit, well........
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
GM did what your talking about with the Camaro. They brag and brag and gave a whole bunch of information on the Camaro since 2005 and waited almost 5 years till it hit the market. That gave Ford and others time to improve upon the Mustang, etc and so far the Camaro has had its [non-permissible content removed] handed to it by the Mustang in every comparison test I have read to date!
and GM, c-mon, build the damn Camaro ( an American legendary muscle car ) in the US and not in freakin Canada huh! :mad:
You're kidding, right? I've never seen a comparo where the Camaro didn't top both the Mustang and Challenger. In fact, the Camaro is outselling the Mustang which is a first in a long, long time.
Bill
Bill
Yes, McLaughlins were Canadian built Buicks for the first half of the last century. One other thing. Canadians buy the cars they build, Mexicans don't, unless you cound the old Beetle.
As a result GM (General Motors) market share declined from 42 percent in 1985 ... Even though US auto decline was already set on years ago, but 2005 proved fatal.
Following the September 11, 2001 attacks, a severe stock market decline ... GM stock began the year 2006 at $19 a share, near its lowest level since 1982, Now bankrupt in 2009.
Mar 31, 2009 ... Today GM's market share is little more than 20%,
GM kinda sounds like a POS to me..... Tell me I'm wrong.
Camaro is better unless you actually need to look out of the windows.
Camaro outselling Mustang - well I hope so, it is about 4 years newer in design. Let's wait a year until the novelty wears off. How many blue collar hillbillies are there who could afford the payments? :P
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/09q3/2010_chevy_camaro_ss_vs._20- - 10_ford_mustang_gt_2009_dodge_challenger_r_t-comparison_tests
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1004_2011_mustang_v6_vs_2010_genesis_- - coupe_3_8_vs_2010_camaro_rs_vs_2010_challenger_se/hyundai_genesis_coupe_v6_track- - .html
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_0907_2010_ford_shelby_gt500_chevr- - olet_camaro_comparison/specs.html
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/reviews/comparisons/4340354
http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/comparison/the-pony-express/page_8_-_the_pony_- - express_page_8
wow, thats a lot of links
Challenger, Camaro, Mustang and Genesis Comparo
Regards,
OW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-uTjaQ6E7g&feature=player_embedded
I do wish the Camaro was built in Van Nuys or Norwood, OH, like it used to be, but there is no disputing that the Big Three employ many, many more people, via the companies themselves as well as suppliers, than any foreign company that assembles here. Maybe it's a generational thing, I don't know, to care about that kind of stuff. I don't think assembling in Canada is the same as assembling in Mexico, or even assembling in the states when the company is headquartered in Korea. I know cars are better now than they used to be, but they are generally so devoid of character compared to the old days (pre-1980), that I'd quickly choose to go back to what cars were then...more than six colors available, more than gray, beige, or black interiors, and no way you'd see two identical cars on the road yet sitting next to each other on a new car lot....I miss the individual options you could combine at will.
Sigh.
Bill
I didn't realize the Mustang got a new V-6 and had improved so much for 2011. And Hyundai seems to have come out of nowhere with the new Genesis.
By that reasoning, we are rewarding inefficiency. They can't support, profitably, that many workers. It's as if we complained that tractors have displaced all the farm workers who could be harvesting wheat with machetes.
I am guessing you are younger than me (early 50's). Where I grew up, there was a good bit of heavy industry, even for a small town. Most all is gone now. Is it more efficient to manufacture in Mexico? I'm sure it is, what with wages there. Is it better for the U.S.? I don't see how anyone could argue that.
Bill
I guess one upshot is that in theory, if the wages are lower, then that makes the overall cost to manufacture the product lower, and in theory should make it sell for a lower price. Unfortunately the reality is that the product probably gets sold for the same price, and the fat-cat CEOs pocket the difference.
Nike has the buying the sizzle formula down pat. Get a two dollar shoe, put a basketball star's name on it and sell it for $150.
I don't see how the Mexican plants can end well. We've already seen how we bought so much junk from China that they now have bought up all our debt. Last thing we need is the same thing from Mexico. Maybe they'll buy Texas back....
Most of the employees you referred to are not HQ staff -- they are assembly workers and suppliers.
I am guessing you are younger than me (early 50's). Where I grew up, there was a good bit of heavy industry, even for a small town. Most all is gone now. Is it more efficient to manufacture in Mexico? I'm sure it is, what with wages there. Is it better for the U.S.? I don't see how anyone could argue that.
I'm actually around the same age as you. I may not like the changes, but change is a way of life. The 60's were far different from the 30's, too. We can embrace it and plot the best path, or we can try to resist. I don't see going backwards as an option. Getting more efficient will be critical for ANY automaker. That means the number of jobs is going to go down any way you slice it. Are those workers staying flexible with their skills? If not, they are going to have problems.
Well, Nike is a marketing company. They probably spend more on marketing and developing their product than manufacturing it. Nike spends over 12% of revenue on marketing alone, which is an incredible amount. 3/4 of their sales are from outside the US, so they must be doing something right.
By chance, do you work in a Human Resources department?
Does anybody really think our change to a service economy is an improvement over when the country was rife with manufacturing, and not all that long ago? This all happened because of greed allowed to go unchecked, as in the Nike example above.
Bill
Bill