Oh yeah? You might want to ask owners of V6 '07 Camrys and Honda Odysseys of ANY vintage...just check out the owner forums on Edmunds, particularly for the Odysseys.
Seems to me on the rare occassion something major does go wrong with a Honda, they stand up behind their products, and do the right thing. They will cover things that are not technically in warranty, or within the warranty period. They will do the honorable and trustworthy thing in my experience, so the "written" warranty is not really needed in my view.
However, GM * Chrysler are less trustworthy. When I asked a Dodge dealer why my car kept breaking down so much (insinuating they were sabotaging it), he said, and I quote "Parts break down, parts just break down."
Good riddens!
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
And...I know you aren't referring to CR's reliability ratings, but I think one does have to ask, is surveying only paid subscribers of a particular magazine really a random sample?
I would say paid subscribers does not bias or unrandomize a sample. I have heard no logical argument yet to date why paid subscribers would bias or de-randomize a sample set.
An example of an argument that might make some sense would be something like "CR gave foreign car owners a 50% discount on the subscription costs," or "in 1970 CR gave a free years subscription to foreign car owners." Otherwise, I think to point out CR as flawed because it only asks subscribers to contribute to its surveys is an irrelevant argument.
Obviously the Torrent and the Equinox are NOT identical. If they were, they'd have the same name, labels, and decals, which I am sure they do not. Did they all manufacture the same days and hours? Or was their a change in shifts? There are so many reasons why similar cars could end up with different reliability.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Have you noticed that almost the entire Ford line-up has better than avg, or much better than avg reliability and have almost their entire line-up on the recommended list? Yeah, they really are bias and prejudiced against the American motor companies :P !!
I do think people buy into what they read and hear...it becomes part of their personal perception.
I wasn't aware Ford has done well in CR's owner surveys; I'm glad to hear it.
But, honestly, when I went to see why a 4-cyl. Malibu was "more reliable" than a V6--this was this year--I looked at their charts for '08 and '09 and the only different thing was 'audio system'--which would be identical between models. It's sample error--same thing as the Torrent/Equinox discrepancy.
Bill
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
If you have ever taken a tour of a GM plant (I have several times over the years), a Chevy will come down the line followed by a Pontiac, then back to a Chevy. It's just sample error.
Of course this will happen, but CR never seems to make any allowance for it.
Bill
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
"......It's the downsized models where things went wrong. Having a 30+ year old engine design (3800) around for every 6 cylinder powered Chevy or (supposed) higher end models"
Hey, don't pick on that motor. Besides, it's not 30 yrs old, it's FIFTY (first introduced in the 1960 Skylark) :P
".....Seems to me on the rare occassion something major does go wrong with a Honda, they stand up behind their products, and do the right thing. They will cover things that are not technically in warranty, or within the warranty period. They will do the honorable and trustworthy thing in my experience, so the "written" warranty is not really needed in my view. "
ANd they'd be well in their rights to say tough S^$T you took the $500. Now pay the $5000 for the tranny. You can't have it both ways. In your argument either you get the warranty or you don't.
That's right. And my Dad's 2 Caddies and my GTP Grand Prix and my Mom's 85 Olds Cierra...the sucky list goes on and on....GM cars remind me of the Honda V-45 I owned and rode with my Harley friends which need a van of parts to make it a few hundred miles.
My parents finally struck Gold with their '01 BPA. Best GM ever, afaic.
Pretty soon one tires of a company with arrogance that drains it into oblivion, sans the bailout.
Glad to see you love the brand. Many, many others left it to fail, for which they obliged quite nicely. I'm happy to see that they are FINALLY putting out a few better products since '08. Remember, you and the other 20% of the market still support them but even with that share, they are on thin ice. They certainly are failing with their marketing efforts as far as I'm concerned.
I would STILL buy a Corvette because it means something....not that it's that dependable/reliable but I'm used to that by now!! :P
The 3800 engine had a plastic intake manifold, the way I understand it, which at around 70K would leak and thus make a $700 engine repair job. If replaced by an upgrade, the engine should be good to around 150K or more = not bad. They have good low end torque, but a tad less HP than say a Honda. Would say they breath and sound not as good as a Honda 3.0, which make sweeter sounds and loves to continue on as the RPMs go up and the speed goes higher. That said, with gas mileage around 30 MPG when in a Camaro or an Olds sedan, that 3800 was a work horse. It beat the Ford 3800 which could not match the 200HP of the Camaros back when. In V8, I guess the 350 was most used. I think I would get the Z28 Camaro, if buying something GM for play -- yes Corvettes are nice -- sit low and my back is not so good. Interesting how great sounding a Ford 5.0 or 4.6 is when compared to just about any other engine. Nice! The 2011 Mustang is gonna kick some butt !
ANd they'd be well in their rights to say tough S^$T you took the $500. Now pay the $5000 for the tranny.
They could have, although it's probably more like $3,000 than $5,000 for the 5 speed auto. Even so, had they decided to say tough S^$T and not stand behind their product, I wouldn't have had my wife buy that 2007 Honda Civic EX Sedan, so that would have already been one lost sale (not to mention all potential future sales). Instead maybe we'd of gotten a Toyota, Nissan, Mazda (or even a full on Ford perhaps post bailout; though I've heard too many horror stories to go there just yet).
If they'd of done stuff as you describe, maybe it would be Honda requiring the bailouts and not Chrysler. But the facts speak for themselves, we live in reality, not fantasy.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
But the facts speak for themselves, we live in reality, not fantasy.
Well said. You can buy great products or just stick the same old stuff that breaks but they hate to give you satisfaction. I'll never know why some people keep going back for more and then feel offended when you knock their failed corporation.
I'll stop knocking them....never!
We'll know there is real change wen they change their damaged brand. GM as an identity needs to go away if real change is desired. I won't hold my breath.
Mr. Grassley heard back from the Treasury last Tuesday. Herbert M. Allison Jr., assistant secretary for financial stability, confirmed that the money G.M. used to repay its bailout loan had come from a taxpayer-financed escrow account held for the automaker at the Treasury.
Emphasizing that the cash in the account was “the property of G.M.,” Mr. Allison said that the department had approved the company’s use of the money to retire the original debt because it was “consistent with Treasury’s goal of recovering funds for the taxpayer and exiting TARP investments as soon as practicable.”
It’s certainly understandable that G.M. would want to spin its repayment as proof of improving operations. But Mr. Grassley said he was troubled that the Treasury went along with the public relations campaign and didn’t spell out how the loan was retired.
“The public would know nothing about the TARP escrow money being the source of the supposed repayment from simply watching G.M.’s TV commercials or reading Treasury’s press release,” Mr. Grassley said in a speech on the Senate floor last Wednesday, saying that “many billions” of federal dollars remained invested in G.M.
“Much of it will never be repaid,” Mr. Grassley added. “The Congressional Budget Office estimates that taxpayers will lose around $30 billion on G.M.” :lemon: :lemon: :lemon: :lemon:
Obviously the Torrent and the Equinox are NOT identical
Please! Have you ever looked at them? They are indeed identical.
Ha! Proves my assertion about the stupidity of branding an identical vehicle under two different badges. Somehow that Chevy Equinox was "we build excitement!".
In my book, a modern 3800 engine is one of the best engines ever produced.
Really!? I've never understood why so many like this engine. I drive one often as my wife has an 07 GP. I don't find it to be smooth, refined, or powerful. As far as OHV v6's, it's probably among the best, but all I know is I much prefer just about every 24v v6 I've driven over it. I'm glad it's gone. It gets the job done, so I guess that's good enough for many.
My younger brother just bought his first domestic car..EVER! He's now the proud owner of a 2010 Fusion Sport with the 3.5v6. I know its not made here.
My brother has always driven asian vehicles over the past 16 years he's owned cars. He just finished with a string of several Nissan's. A Frontier, Sentra, Maxima, and an 08 Altima that the lease was just up on. All of them were perfectly reliable.
He extensively test drove and researched the Malibu, Accord, Sonata, Camry, and Fusion. He actually ended up liking the Fusion the best, so Ford has legitimately won someone over from the other side. I didn't think I'd ever see my bro driving a domestic.
I think that is the first time I've seen the term silky smooth and 3800 in the same sentence. A silky smooth 90 degree OHV v6 doesn't exist. My wife's car has a 3800 Series III. IMO it's far from silky smooth.
Until recently, an article about a misaligned glovebox emblem on a Pontiac would've been in bold 72-point type on page one above a smaller one about the President personally capturing Osama Bin Laden. Meanwhile, an article about Toyotas spontaneously exploding in front of elementary schools killing hundreds of children would've been buried in the Classifieds near an ad for free kittens.
I have had great experiences with my GMs through decades.
The 3800 is a fine engine with great economy and high torque at low speeds. If someone wants to repeat for the millionth time that they don't like their vehicle with a 3800, I wouldn't let the trunklid hit me in the Axx on the way to trade it at a dealer of my choice!!! Hint.
I believe that was the 215 cid V-8 that was later used in Land Rovers.
I most certainly agree the 3800 was one of the best and most fuel-efficient engines ever produced. Both my 1988 Buick Park Avenue and my wife's 2005 Buick LaCrosse have 3800 engines! They are extremely reliable and very good on gas!
Wow, that's unusual that he'd try a Ford after such a great experience with Nissan. I wish him great luck with the Ford.
I agree, I think he was just ready for something different. The Maxima was bigger and more than he wanted to spend (plus he had an 06) and a new Altima would have been basically what he already had.
I think the Fusion enticed him with how it drove and sync system etc, plus he got a good deal and 0% for 60 mos. He's already commented to me how much quieter it is vs. his 08 Altima.
He lives about 3 hours from me, so it will be few weeks until I get a chance to check it out. I'm curious to see how it drives and to compare it to my dad's 09 Accord EX-L v6. I've read about the Accord brake woes and my dad just had the rear brakes replaced at 34k miles. Dad didn't seem to bothered by it, it didn't cost much and he does like the car.
The 3800 is a fine engine with great economy and high torque at low speeds. If someone wants to repeat for the millionth time that they don't like their vehicle with a 3800, I wouldn't let the trunklid hit me in the Axx on the way to trade it at a dealer of my choice!!! Hint.
LOL
I drive my wife's GP once a week or so to get gas for her (hey I try to be a nice guy). Every time I get behind the wheel I try to understand why so many (on these boards anyway) like this engine. After every trip I continually get out scratching my head to the appeal. Just not impressive to me. Fuel economy? The GP has averaged less than my wife's 06 Ford 500 which was heavier with same HP and less than her 3.4 powered Impala she had before. Then, after I've sampled GM's 3.6, Toy/Hon/Nissan's 3.5 and the 3800 is where it belongs....gone.
I most certainly agree the 3800 was one of the best and most fuel-efficient engines ever produced.
GM should have saved billions in development costs with their advanced powertrains and put the 3800 in the whole fleet. Maybe they'd save the earth in the process.
I sell GM's and it's the same way here honda. I'm in south central Illinois where the hills are slight. It's mostly farmland here. We can't GIVE away a vehicle without an automatic tranny. I've been in the business around the same amount of time as you....I bet I can count on one hand the number of standard transmissions I have sold.
Buick only used the 215 aluminum engine for three years. 1961-1963.
The mechanics that still remember them will tell you there were garbage.
My parents bought a 1962 Buick Special with that engine that they ended up giving to me. I ran the crap out of that little car and never had any trouble. It would go over 100 MPH...I know! The Dual Path automatic transmission was another story. Pure junk and the worst transmission GM ever built except for the Turboglide.
The engine that wasn't good enough for Buick ended up in several British cars incluing Land Rover. Oh, they got tweaked and fuel injected but they used them for YEARS. I never could belive how that "junk" engine could power a big Land Rover!
He extensively test drove and researched the Malibu, Accord, Sonata, Camry, and Fusion. He actually ended up liking the Fusion the best, so Ford has legitimately won someone over from the other side. I didn't think I'd ever see my bro driving a domestic.
I really wanted to support Ford and get a Fusion but for $3,000 less, I was able to get a similarly equipped Sonata so there was just no way to justify it. The Sonata also comes in with a higher MPG rating. I liked the Malibu too (based on a rental experience) but there was no way I was supporting GM due to the bailout and union issues. I realize Ford is also union but their efforts to remain independent of the government was a big enough plus in my eyes to give them a glance. Glad to hear of the Ford decision from your brother. After only 500 miles, it’s hard to give a full-blown opinion of the Sonata but, so far, it’s great.
1961 was the firest year for Buick Specials but I don't think the V-6's came out until 1962. An aluminum V-8 was the engine they used the most.
Yeah, initially the aluminum 215 V-8 came out for 1961, but the V-6 came out in 1962, as a 198 CID unit. It used an iron block instead of aluminum, so I'm sure was much more durable. It stayed a 198 for 1963, but then for 1964-67 became a 225...basically a Buick 300 V-8 with two cylinders lopped off.
I wonder how those 198's and 225's were for durability? I know that when Buick started making the 3.8 again, around 1975, it was pretty crappy up through 1984. In 1985 it got a stronger block, bigger oil passages, etc, and was much more durable. And then when it was revised to the "3800", it became even better.
So then I wonder, were they all crap in the early years, or did something happen to the engine during the years that Jeep had it, or did GM muff up its design when it started using it again? I know one change they did was to bore it out from 3.75" to 4.00", so it could use the same pistons as a Buick 350 V-8. But maybe, along the way, they managed to screw something else up?
Hey, no matter how good something is there is always someone who doesn't agree with the masses. In this case, it's you!
What masses, GM has been losing market share for 30+ years. When is the last time a 3800 powered car was in the top 10 seller list?
I agree it was a very good engine in the late 80's through the 90's, but it's been outclassed for over a decade.
The Nissan 3.5 I had in my 01 Pathfinder was way better than the 3800 in our 07 GP. Much smoother, much quieter, more HP, more torque, and very reliable.
I was able to get a similarly equipped Sonata so there was just no way to justify it. The Sonata also comes in with a higher MPG rating.
IMO the Sonota is impressive. My brother's best friend has a Sonota that is probably an 06 or so. Last time I talked to him, he loved it and has had zero issues in it. I rode in it once and it seemed like a good car.
As for my brother's decision, he wanted the extra power of a v6. He doesn't drive much and has a company car for work, so gas mileage is not much of a concern for him. I think he only put 20k miles on his 08 Altima he had leased.
I was surprised to see that even Consumer Report apparently this year didn't give Toyota their customary GOLD STAR.
As I was watching Verizon and AT&T tear into each other these past few months I kept thinking of GM, Ford and Chrysler and their poor advertisement campaigns of the past. I doubt today that I will see any of the big three really put it out to the American people the issues clear and plain.
1. Japanese vehicles are for the most part BORING. I can't imagine any of the Corolas Camrys etc becoming collector items such as a 65 Mustang. NADA 2. The profit from each Japanese vehicle sold in the USA goes back to JAPAN.
Most Americans can't figure this out for themselves and the Big 3 need to point it out.
Fuel mileage. I have a 02 Buick Park Ave that is LUSH with comfort AND gets 31MPG on the road... The car has a heads UP display like a fighter plane. Is that on a Camry ? The Buick has a automatic windshield wipers that come on when its drizzling or raining how about that Civic or Accord? The Buick has backup warning system that tells me when SOMETHING is there. How about that 02 Accord?
My 1991 Chev 1500 PU 4 x 4 sure worked good in the snow during Feb 2010. It only has 180,000 on it so who knows what it will do when it gets old.
My 2006 Chev 2500 Silverado diesel can pull half a dozen Corollas probably and still get 11 mph. Take them off the Chev and it gets 21 or better by itself on the road. Wonder what a Toy PU gets on the road? I bet there isn't a one of the PU that can pull my 5th wheel up either I 26 or I 40 into Asheville, NC. The heated leather seats sure were nice this winter in the snow and cold weather.
Can you get those on a Japanese PU that won't pull my camper? I didn't think I would like it but now I just love XM radio. Sure wish I had it when I pulled the camper to Alaska to visit Sarah 5 years ago. (actually hadn't heard of her then when I drove through Wasilla, AK). I only have 38K on this one but it never gets a day when it not pulling something. That power is really something!
My friend in GA has a daughter that had previously owned 2 Toyota 4 Runners and she also decided the Ford Fusion was a better deal. Then my neighbor two doors down also bought one in March but she just went from another American brand.
It looks good to me. I think she got it too late to test in the snows of this winter.
My buddy got his mother a Honda CRV or something like that. In our first snow of the year in December it got stuck about 12 ft outside of the garage. It just high centered.
I saw the same thing with the Japanese PUs back in 93 in the BIG snow storm (22" or better). The OLD Chev PU did just fine however. Same thing with the Subaru's ... they were a NO GO.
I'm only stating my opinion thatthe 3800 engines were excellent engines that were powerful, smooth and good on gas.
Compared to what?
My wife gets a new company car every 2-3 years etc, I've sampled many bread n butter family sedans. The only one that stood out as truly bad was the 3.0 Vulcan OHV v6 she had in an 03 Taurus. While perfectly reliable it had zero power and bad fuel economy and made horrible sounds. All the others have been similar in regard to fuel economy and performance. I'm sorry, but I haven't found the mileage of the 3800 powered GP to stand out in anyway. Her driving has been the same over the years. The car that got the best mileage was her 3.4 powered Impala, the Taurus was the worst, and the Grand Prix and 500 are very similar, the GP is quicker to 40, the 500 felt quicker above 40, so basically a wash. Which I verified through CU (I know many don't like CU, but they have a consistent way they test fuel economy). The 500 and GP had similar fuel economy with the 500 being slightly better, which is what I found to be true through personal experience.
My buddy got his mother a Honda CRV or something like that. In our first snow of the year in December it got stuck about 12 ft outside of the garage. It just high centered.
I saw the same thing with the Japanese PUs back in 93 in the BIG snow storm (22" or better). The OLD Chev PU did just fine however. Same thing with the Subaru's ... they were a NO GO.
That can happen to any of them. I got my 4wd Suburban stuck a few years ago between the curb of my driveway and the 2 and a half foot pile from the snow plow that was a few feet out. The problem with something that big being stuck is a few guys pushing does basically nothing. I spent an hour digging to get that pig unstuck. But yes, extra ground clearance is huge.
OK, I'm sorry but your rant made absolutely no sense. Pure Bias mixed with misleading and contradicting information, bording on nonsense.
1. Japanese vehicles are for the most part BORING. I can't imagine any of the Corolas Camrys etc becoming collector items such as a 65 Mustang. NADA
Right... And to follow it up with praise for a Buick land yacht. LOL. That's rich.
And do you believe it will be any more of a collectors item than the Corolla or Camry you mention? Sorry, not many cars introduced in the last twenty years will come to collectibility status, nevermind one of a classic pony car...
Fuel mileage. I have a 02 Buick Park Ave that is LUSH with comfort AND gets 31MPG on the road... The car has a heads UP display like a fighter plane. Is that on a Camry ? The Buick has a automatic windshield wipers that come on when its drizzling or raining how about that Civic or Accord? The Buick has backup warning system that tells me when SOMETHING is there. How about that 02 Accord? ...
A Camry is rated in the mid 30's for fuel economy... Try the Avalon which is rated by the EPA at 20/28 while your Buick was rated 18/27. Don't miss the fact that the Avalon brings an extra 30 ponies to the show, or 70 if you forgot to buy the S/C version. And if a heads up display is what gets you off, enjoy. But ever wonder why few other makes offer the same feature even a decade after it appeared on your Government Motors vehicle? Might not have the same following as you... :confuse:
The Buick has a automatic windshield wipers that come on when its drizzling or raining how about that Civic or Accord? The Buick has backup warning system that tells me when SOMETHING is there. How about that 02 Accord? ...
I'm sorry but technology is cool and all but IMO if you need back up sensors to park your sedan then you should go back to driving school. SUV? Truck? ya maybe they're necessary, but in a car? Do you need a phonebook under your butt when you drive? :confuse: And again, the Civic and Accord are in a totally different price range.
LOL, you're truck rant was fuzzy so I won't comment. :shades:
Enjoy your GM vehicles. Surely the government appreciates your business. :shades:
Japanese vehicles are for the most part BORING. I can't imagine any of the Corolas Camrys etc becoming collector items such as a 65 Mustang. NADA
And GM and Ford sedan's over the past 20 years haven't been? The previous Taurus, Impala, previous gen Malibu, Cavalier, Cobalt, G6, Century, Grand Prix. I can go on and on with different domestic cars that didn't appeal to many other than those who'd buy anything at a big enough discount.
The Buick has a automatic windshield wipers that come on when its drizzling or raining how about that Civic or Accord? The Buick has backup warning system that tells me when SOMETHING is there. How about that 02 Accord?
Apples and oranges. Who in their right mind would compare a top of the line Buick with a Civic or Accord? (which BTW has been busy kicking the absolute crap out of Ford and GM mainstream sedans for the past 20 years that is changing though). An 02 loaded Park Ave was nearly a $40k car vs a 15k Civic or $20-25k Accord.
Let's compare stop and go driving fuel economy comparison of a Park Ave vs something like an Accord? My dad has a 50 mile round trip stop and go commute to work. His '00 Taurus and his current 09 Accord v6 average about 21-22mpg on his commute. When he first inherited my grandpa's '00 Park ave, it averaged about 17-18 mpg on the same commute (that's about an additional 20% in fuel costs). Most people don't drive 100% highway.
My 2006 Chev 2500 Silverado diesel can pull half a dozen Corollas probably and still get 11 mph. Take them off the Chev and it gets 21 or better by itself on the road. Wonder what a Toy PU gets on the road? I bet there isn't a one of the PU that can pull my 5th wheel up either I 26 or I 40 into Asheville, NC. The heated leather seats sure were nice this winter in the snow and cold weather.
Can you get those on a Japanese PU that won't pull my camper?
Considering you can't get a 3/4 or 1 ton diesel Toyota or Nissan pickup what do you expect? Thankfully, the domestics still rule the full size truck market.
Lets see, you won't find a topic titled "GM and Ford small pickups rule over the Asian makes". Because a Toyota Tacoma or Nissan Frontier are far more capable than a Colorado or Ranger.
And if a heads up display is what gets you off, enjoy. But ever wonder why few other makes offer the same feature even a decade after it appeared on your Government Motors vehicle?
Well, the Park Ave will also chime at you if you leave the turn signal on for too long, reminding you to turn it off. Don't ask me how I know this. I think mine is starting to turn me into the stereotypical Buick driver, although I promise I will not take up left-lane camping as a hobby. :P
Well, as you wallow down the road in your Buick and it starts to rain, I'm glad you don't have to go through the effort of having to flip the wiper switch!
Those rain sense wipers have to be the dumbest thing ever invented!
And, I KNOW when something is behind me!
Yeah, some of the profit from Japanese cars go's back to Japan but a lot stays right here especially when the bulk of Japanese cars are built in the U.S. Profit go's back into the community when we sell these cars in the U.S.
And, you might be surprised about how many of the parts in your Buick came from overseas!
Comments
Regards,
OW
Seems to me on the rare occassion something major does go wrong with a Honda, they stand up behind their products, and do the right thing. They will cover things that are not technically in warranty, or within the warranty period. They will do the honorable and trustworthy thing in my experience, so the "written" warranty is not really needed in my view.
However, GM * Chrysler are less trustworthy. When I asked a Dodge dealer why my car kept breaking down so much (insinuating they were sabotaging it), he said, and I quote "Parts break down, parts just break down."
Good riddens!
I would say paid subscribers does not bias or unrandomize a sample. I have heard no logical argument yet to date why paid subscribers would bias or de-randomize a sample set.
An example of an argument that might make some sense would be something like "CR gave foreign car owners a 50% discount on the subscription costs," or "in 1970 CR gave a free years subscription to foreign car owners." Otherwise, I think to point out CR as flawed because it only asks subscribers to contribute to its surveys is an irrelevant argument.
Obviously the Torrent and the Equinox are NOT identical. If they were, they'd have the same name, labels, and decals, which I am sure they do not. Did they all manufacture the same days and hours? Or was their a change in shifts? There are so many reasons why similar cars could end up with different reliability.
It couldn't have anything to do with the actual quality of the cars now could it?
Maybe one of the Ford daughters or sons married one of the CR big wigs' daughter or son!! Yeah, that's it! :sick:
Please! Have you ever looked at them? They are indeed identical.
Bill
I wasn't aware Ford has done well in CR's owner surveys; I'm glad to hear it.
But, honestly, when I went to see why a 4-cyl. Malibu was "more reliable" than a V6--this was this year--I looked at their charts for '08 and '09 and the only different thing was 'audio system'--which would be identical between models. It's sample error--same thing as the Torrent/Equinox discrepancy.
Bill
I bet in the factory they make one, and then the other, in shifts.... Or maybe God hates Chevy and curses them while he has a bias for Pontiacs?
Maybe Chevy owners are more critical than Pontiac owners?
There's hundreds of reasons....
Of course this will happen, but CR never seems to make any allowance for it.
Bill
Hey, don't pick on that motor. Besides, it's not 30 yrs old, it's FIFTY (first introduced in the 1960 Skylark) :P
And you've had more major issues with your ONE Denali than I've had with my 7 New GM products and 4 used ones COMBINED!!!!
ANd they'd be well in their rights to say tough S^$T you took the $500. Now pay the $5000 for the tranny. You can't have it both ways. In your argument either you get the warranty or you don't.
and 1961 was the firest year for Buick Specials but I don't think the V-6's came out until 1962. An aluminum V-8 was the engine they used the most.
In my book, a modern 3800 engine is one of the best engines ever produced.
My parents finally struck Gold with their '01 BPA. Best GM ever, afaic.
Pretty soon one tires of a company with arrogance that drains it into oblivion, sans the bailout.
Glad to see you love the brand. Many, many others left it to fail, for which they obliged quite nicely. I'm happy to see that they are FINALLY putting out a few better products since '08. Remember, you and the other 20% of the market still support them but even with that share, they are on thin ice. They certainly are failing with their marketing efforts as far as I'm concerned.
I would STILL buy a Corvette because it means something....not that it's that dependable/reliable but I'm used to that by now!! :P
Regards,
OW
They could have, although it's probably more like $3,000 than $5,000 for the 5 speed auto. Even so, had they decided to say tough S^$T and not stand behind their product, I wouldn't have had my wife buy that 2007 Honda Civic EX Sedan, so that would have already been one lost sale (not to mention all potential future sales). Instead maybe we'd of gotten a Toyota, Nissan, Mazda (or even a full on Ford perhaps post bailout; though I've heard too many horror stories to go there just yet).
If they'd of done stuff as you describe, maybe it would be Honda requiring the bailouts and not Chrysler. But the facts speak for themselves, we live in reality, not fantasy.
Well said. You can buy great products or just stick the same old stuff that breaks but they hate to give you satisfaction. I'll never know why some people keep going back for more and then feel offended when you knock their failed corporation.
I'll stop knocking them....never!
We'll know there is real change wen they change their damaged brand. GM as an identity needs to go away if real change is desired. I won't hold my breath.
Mr. Grassley heard back from the Treasury last Tuesday. Herbert M. Allison Jr., assistant secretary for financial stability, confirmed that the money G.M. used to repay its bailout loan had come from a taxpayer-financed escrow account held for the automaker at the Treasury.
Emphasizing that the cash in the account was “the property of G.M.,” Mr. Allison said that the department had approved the company’s use of the money to retire the original debt because it was “consistent with Treasury’s goal of recovering funds for the taxpayer and exiting TARP investments as soon as practicable.”
It’s certainly understandable that G.M. would want to spin its repayment as proof of improving operations. But Mr. Grassley said he was troubled that the Treasury went along with the public relations campaign and didn’t spell out how the loan was retired.
“The public would know nothing about the TARP escrow money being the source of the supposed repayment from simply watching G.M.’s TV commercials or reading Treasury’s press release,” Mr. Grassley said in a speech on the Senate floor last Wednesday, saying that “many billions” of federal dollars remained invested in G.M.
“Much of it will never be repaid,” Mr. Grassley added. “The Congressional Budget Office estimates that taxpayers will lose around $30 billion on G.M.” :lemon: :lemon: :lemon: :lemon:
Robbing Peter to Pay Paul - Nice, Mr. Obama!
Any more questions?? Go Hyundai and Honda!! :shades:
Regards,
OW
Please! Have you ever looked at them? They are indeed identical.
Ha! Proves my assertion about the stupidity of branding an identical vehicle under two different badges. Somehow that Chevy Equinox was "we build excitement!".
Really!? I've never understood why so many like this engine. I drive one often as my wife has an 07 GP. I don't find it to be smooth, refined, or powerful. As far as OHV v6's, it's probably among the best, but all I know is I much prefer just about every 24v v6 I've driven over it. I'm glad it's gone. It gets the job done, so I guess that's good enough for many.
My brother has always driven asian vehicles over the past 16 years he's owned cars. He just finished with a string of several Nissan's. A Frontier, Sentra, Maxima, and an 08 Altima that the lease was just up on. All of them were perfectly reliable.
He extensively test drove and researched the Malibu, Accord, Sonata, Camry, and Fusion. He actually ended up liking the Fusion the best, so Ford has legitimately won someone over from the other side. I didn't think I'd ever see my bro driving a domestic.
Yep, good enough for me. I had a Buick with that engine. It was silky smooth, powerful and it got surprising gas mileage.
I know a guy who has an Olds with the 3800 engine that is pushing 240,000 miles and it's still running fine with no oil usage to speak of.
I think that is the first time I've seen the term silky smooth and 3800 in the same sentence. A silky smooth 90 degree OHV v6 doesn't exist. My wife's car has a 3800 Series III. IMO it's far from silky smooth.
The 3800 is a fine engine with great economy and high torque at low speeds. If someone wants to repeat for the millionth time that they don't like their vehicle with a 3800, I wouldn't let the trunklid hit me in the Axx on the way to trade it at a dealer of my choice!!! Hint.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I most certainly agree the 3800 was one of the best and most fuel-efficient engines ever produced. Both my 1988 Buick Park Avenue and my wife's 2005 Buick LaCrosse have 3800 engines! They are extremely reliable and very good on gas!
I agree, I think he was just ready for something different. The Maxima was bigger and more than he wanted to spend (plus he had an 06) and a new Altima would have been basically what he already had.
I think the Fusion enticed him with how it drove and sync system etc, plus he got a good deal and 0% for 60 mos. He's already commented to me how much quieter it is vs. his 08 Altima.
He lives about 3 hours from me, so it will be few weeks until I get a chance to check it out. I'm curious to see how it drives and to compare it to my dad's 09 Accord EX-L v6. I've read about the Accord brake woes and my dad just had the rear brakes replaced at 34k miles. Dad didn't seem to bothered by it, it didn't cost much and he does like the car.
LOL
I drive my wife's GP once a week or so to get gas for her (hey I try to be a nice guy). Every time I get behind the wheel I try to understand why so many (on these boards anyway) like this engine. After every trip I continually get out scratching my head to the appeal. Just not impressive to me. Fuel economy? The GP has averaged less than my wife's 06 Ford 500 which was heavier with same HP and less than her 3.4 powered Impala she had before. Then, after I've sampled GM's 3.6, Toy/Hon/Nissan's 3.5 and the 3800 is where it belongs....gone.
GM should have saved billions in development costs with their advanced powertrains and put the 3800 in the whole fleet. Maybe they'd save the earth in the process.
The mechanics that still remember them will tell you there were garbage.
My parents bought a 1962 Buick Special with that engine that they ended up giving to me. I ran the crap out of that little car and never had any trouble. It would go over 100 MPH...I know! The Dual Path automatic transmission was another story. Pure junk and the worst transmission GM ever built except for the Turboglide.
The engine that wasn't good enough for Buick ended up in several British cars incluing Land Rover. Oh, they got tweaked and fuel injected but they used them for YEARS. I never could belive how that "junk" engine could power a big Land Rover!
I really wanted to support Ford and get a Fusion but for $3,000 less, I was able to get a similarly equipped Sonata so there was just no way to justify it. The Sonata also comes in with a higher MPG rating. I liked the Malibu too (based on a rental experience) but there was no way I was supporting GM due to the bailout and union issues. I realize Ford is also union but their efforts to remain independent of the government was a big enough plus in my eyes to give them a glance. Glad to hear of the Ford decision from your brother. After only 500 miles, it’s hard to give a full-blown opinion of the Sonata but, so far, it’s great.
Yeah, initially the aluminum 215 V-8 came out for 1961, but the V-6 came out in 1962, as a 198 CID unit. It used an iron block instead of aluminum, so I'm sure was much more durable. It stayed a 198 for 1963, but then for 1964-67 became a 225...basically a Buick 300 V-8 with two cylinders lopped off.
I wonder how those 198's and 225's were for durability? I know that when Buick started making the 3.8 again, around 1975, it was pretty crappy up through 1984. In 1985 it got a stronger block, bigger oil passages, etc, and was much more durable. And then when it was revised to the "3800", it became even better.
So then I wonder, were they all crap in the early years, or did something happen to the engine during the years that Jeep had it, or did GM muff up its design when it started using it again? I know one change they did was to bore it out from 3.75" to 4.00", so it could use the same pistons as a Buick 350 V-8. But maybe, along the way, they managed to screw something else up?
What masses, GM has been losing market share for 30+ years. When is the last time a 3800 powered car was in the top 10 seller list?
I agree it was a very good engine in the late 80's through the 90's, but it's been outclassed for over a decade.
The Nissan 3.5 I had in my 01 Pathfinder was way better than the 3800 in our 07 GP. Much smoother, much quieter, more HP, more torque, and very reliable.
IMO the Sonota is impressive. My brother's best friend has a Sonota that is probably an 06 or so. Last time I talked to him, he loved it and has had zero issues in it. I rode in it once and it seemed like a good car.
As for my brother's decision, he wanted the extra power of a v6. He doesn't drive much and has a company car for work, so gas mileage is not much of a concern for him. I think he only put 20k miles on his 08 Altima he had leased.
As far as being "outclassed" I don't care!
I'm only stating my opinion thatthe 3800 engines were excellent engines that were powerful, smooth and good on gas.
Your opinion obviously differs and that's fine!
I was surprised to see that even Consumer Report apparently this year didn't give Toyota their customary GOLD STAR.
As I was watching Verizon and AT&T tear into each other these past few months I kept thinking of GM, Ford and Chrysler and their poor advertisement campaigns of the past. I doubt today that I will see any of the big three really put it out to the American people the issues clear and plain.
1. Japanese vehicles are for the most part BORING. I can't imagine any of the Corolas Camrys etc becoming collector items such as a 65 Mustang. NADA
2. The profit from each Japanese vehicle sold in the USA goes back to JAPAN.
Most Americans can't figure this out for themselves and the Big 3 need to point it out.
Fuel mileage. I have a 02 Buick Park Ave that is LUSH with comfort AND gets 31MPG on the road... The car has a heads UP display like a fighter plane. Is that on a Camry ? The Buick has a automatic windshield wipers that come on when its drizzling or raining how about that Civic or Accord? The Buick has backup warning system that tells me when SOMETHING is there. How about that 02 Accord?
My 1991 Chev 1500 PU 4 x 4 sure worked good in the snow during Feb 2010. It only has 180,000 on it so who knows what it will do when it gets old.
My 2006 Chev 2500 Silverado diesel can pull half a dozen Corollas probably and still get 11 mph. Take them off the Chev and it gets 21 or better by itself on the road. Wonder what a Toy PU gets on the road? I bet there isn't a one of the PU that can pull my 5th wheel up either I 26 or I 40 into Asheville, NC. The heated leather seats sure were nice this winter in the snow and cold weather.
Can you get those on a Japanese PU that won't pull my camper? I didn't think I would like it but now I just love XM radio. Sure wish I had it when I pulled the camper to Alaska to visit Sarah 5 years ago. (actually hadn't heard of her then when I drove through Wasilla, AK). I only have 38K on this one but it never gets a day when it not pulling something. That power is really something!
It looks good to me. I think she got it too late to test in the snows of this winter.
My buddy got his mother a Honda CRV or something like that. In our first snow of the year in December it got stuck about 12 ft outside of the garage. It just high centered.
I saw the same thing with the Japanese PUs back in 93 in the BIG snow storm (22" or better). The OLD Chev PU did just fine however. Same thing with the Subaru's ... they were a NO GO.
Compared to what?
My wife gets a new company car every 2-3 years etc, I've sampled many bread n butter family sedans. The only one that stood out as truly bad was the 3.0 Vulcan OHV v6 she had in an 03 Taurus. While perfectly reliable it had zero power and bad fuel economy and made horrible sounds. All the others have been similar in regard to fuel economy and performance. I'm sorry, but I haven't found the mileage of the 3800 powered GP to stand out in anyway. Her driving has been the same over the years. The car that got the best mileage was her 3.4 powered Impala, the Taurus was the worst, and the Grand Prix and 500 are very similar, the GP is quicker to 40, the 500 felt quicker above 40, so basically a wash. Which I verified through CU (I know many don't like CU, but they have a consistent way they test fuel economy). The 500 and GP had similar fuel economy with the 500 being slightly better, which is what I found to be true through personal experience.
I saw the same thing with the Japanese PUs back in 93 in the BIG snow storm (22" or better). The OLD Chev PU did just fine however. Same thing with the Subaru's ... they were a NO GO.
That can happen to any of them. I got my 4wd Suburban stuck a few years ago between the curb of my driveway and the 2 and a half foot pile from the snow plow that was a few feet out. The problem with something that big being stuck is a few guys pushing does basically nothing. I spent an hour digging to get that pig unstuck. But yes, extra ground clearance is huge.
1. Japanese vehicles are for the most part BORING. I can't imagine any of the Corolas Camrys etc becoming collector items such as a 65 Mustang. NADA
Right... And to follow it up with praise for a Buick land yacht. LOL. That's rich.
And do you believe it will be any more of a collectors item than the Corolla or Camry you mention? Sorry, not many cars introduced in the last twenty years will come to collectibility status, nevermind one of a classic pony car...
Fuel mileage. I have a 02 Buick Park Ave that is LUSH with comfort AND gets 31MPG on the road... The car has a heads UP display like a fighter plane. Is that on a Camry ? The Buick has a automatic windshield wipers that come on when its drizzling or raining how about that Civic or Accord? The Buick has backup warning system that tells me when SOMETHING is there. How about that 02 Accord? ...
A Camry is rated in the mid 30's for fuel economy... Try the Avalon which is rated by the EPA at 20/28 while your Buick was rated 18/27. Don't miss the fact that the Avalon brings an extra 30 ponies to the show, or 70 if you forgot to buy the S/C version. And if a heads up display is what gets you off, enjoy. But ever wonder why few other makes offer the same feature even a decade after it appeared on your Government Motors vehicle? Might not have the same following as you... :confuse:
The Buick has a automatic windshield wipers that come on when its drizzling or raining how about that Civic or Accord? The Buick has backup warning system that tells me when SOMETHING is there. How about that 02 Accord? ...
I'm sorry but technology is cool and all but IMO if you need back up sensors to park your sedan then you should go back to driving school. SUV? Truck? ya maybe they're necessary, but in a car? Do you need a phonebook under your butt when you drive? :confuse: And again, the Civic and Accord are in a totally different price range.
LOL, you're truck rant was fuzzy so I won't comment. :shades:
Enjoy your GM vehicles. Surely the government appreciates your business.
:shades:
:sick:
Exactly, the comparison is ludicrous.
And GM and Ford sedan's over the past 20 years haven't been? The previous Taurus, Impala, previous gen Malibu, Cavalier, Cobalt, G6, Century, Grand Prix. I can go on and on with different domestic cars that didn't appeal to many other than those who'd buy anything at a big enough discount.
The Buick has a automatic windshield wipers that come on when its drizzling or raining how about that Civic or Accord? The Buick has backup warning system that tells me when SOMETHING is there. How about that 02 Accord?
Apples and oranges. Who in their right mind would compare a top of the line Buick with a Civic or Accord? (which BTW has been busy kicking the absolute crap out of Ford and GM mainstream sedans for the past 20 years that is changing though). An 02 loaded Park Ave was nearly a $40k car vs a 15k Civic or $20-25k Accord.
Let's compare stop and go driving fuel economy comparison of a Park Ave vs something like an Accord? My dad has a 50 mile round trip stop and go commute to work. His '00 Taurus and his current 09 Accord v6 average about 21-22mpg on his commute. When he first inherited my grandpa's '00 Park ave, it averaged about 17-18 mpg on the same commute (that's about an additional 20% in fuel costs). Most people don't drive 100% highway.
My 2006 Chev 2500 Silverado diesel can pull half a dozen Corollas probably and still get 11 mph. Take them off the Chev and it gets 21 or better by itself on the road. Wonder what a Toy PU gets on the road? I bet there isn't a one of the PU that can pull my 5th wheel up either I 26 or I 40 into Asheville, NC. The heated leather seats sure were nice this winter in the snow and cold weather.
Can you get those on a Japanese PU that won't pull my camper?
Considering you can't get a 3/4 or 1 ton diesel Toyota or Nissan pickup what do you expect? Thankfully, the domestics still rule the full size truck market.
Lets see, you won't find a topic titled "GM and Ford small pickups rule over the Asian makes". Because a Toyota Tacoma or Nissan Frontier are far more capable than a Colorado or Ranger.
Well, the Park Ave will also chime at you if you leave the turn signal on for too long, reminding you to turn it off. Don't ask me how I know this.
That has become a toyota forte in this part of the country. :P
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I've been noticing that more too. I think Toyota's average customer age is increasing.
Those rain sense wipers have to be the dumbest thing ever invented!
And, I KNOW when something is behind me!
Yeah, some of the profit from Japanese cars go's back to Japan but a lot stays right here especially when the bulk of Japanese cars are built in the U.S. Profit go's back into the community when we sell these cars in the U.S.
And, you might be surprised about how many of the parts in your Buick came from overseas!