Well, you better stay out of Wal Mart if that's the case.
When I was in the tool business, I used to hear this from a lot of our customers but when the price on the US made stuff went up and the quality on some of the foreign made tools went up, a lot of the customers quit caring.
The other day, I picked up a set of Channel Lock type pliers that wre made overseas and the crappy quality of a few years ago was gone.
And people forget. Look at Hyundai as a prime example of this.
They built junk. They improved their quality added a long warranty and people buy them now.
Hey, Motorcity, I'm with you on the new Mustang, especially with the V6. Can't ask for better mileage and hp than that! I'm gonna test drive one. I hope I'm impressed and that it's a comfortable ride, especially seat comfort. The arm rest, however, doesn't look too comfortable from the pictures. Maybe an aftermarket fix? You may be verbose, as you say, but keep it up; I enjoy reading your posts.
Not everybody is expected to think past the next 3 minutes. The '07 Sonata I drove was nice in every respect except for one that really mattered. The driver's seat was uncomfortable.
Yes, I will be at Hershey. Thinking about the all GM show, as we didn't go to Rhinebeck 2 weeks ago. Gotta see if we can get the vaca time, as it's tight that time of year.
Heard a little good news regarding the economy and one of our good manufacturers. Caterpillar will be calling back 9,000 workers, 3,000 in Illinois by the end of the year due to demand overseas picking up. Those are UAW jobs.
I would love to buy more reliable made in USA tools, even they cost me extra buck, but when I was looking for a lawn mower, I wasn't able to find 100% made in USA.
I feel the same way about tools. I will spend the premium to buy a U.S. manufactured product rather than settle for the cheap, poorly forged foreign one. Good tools are like good furniture - they can last for generations. My wife's father passed on four years ago and I received some of his tools. There were some tools HIS father gave him which would've dated back to the 1920s or earlier.
Oh yeah, good tools usually get lost or not returned long before they wear out. I picked up a metric open end wrench set at Menards on the cheap and they were made here.
And people forget. Look at Hyundai as a prime example of this.
They built junk. They improved their quality added a long warranty and people buy them now.
I don't think people forget when it's a large purchase such as an automobile. Since automobiles are typically a person's second largest purchase in their lifetime (and therefore relatively infrequent) they remember.
I think Hyundai never claimed their vehicles were good when they were crap. They never told anyone they had the "best" vehicles or that they had made changes and were now "better" even though they weren't. When they sold crap, they sold it cheap and didn't lie about it. No excuses needed to be made, you got what you paid for. When they improved their products, they didn't have to make commercials about "may the best car win." They simply let their pocket books speak for themselves with a 10 year 100,000 mile warranty.
The problem with the Big 3, is that they sold crap, but for the price of gold. They sold cheap product at expensive prices. They claimed they had changed, that they had improved, when in fact they had not. They did this over and over again, saying they were different "this time," that it wasn't going to be the same as the "old" stuff. They lied. They are the boy who cried wolf too many times.
People remember. I believe in rewarding good work with some form of loyalty to companies that do good work.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Thank god that CR looks past a brand new cars reliability in the first year or two while it's new, and looks further down the road keeping track for 7 years and more to gauge the TRUE reliability.
Real Dependability starts after the warranty expires. CR doesn't turn blind when looking past the first year or two like JD Powers does. CR can see, while JD chooses to be blind.
I've found out first hand that the first few years performance may not be a good indicator of long term reliability. My domestic car started out with lousy or poor dependability its first few years, but after the warranty expired, it wasn't even close to lousy or poor. It was tragic, terrible, horrible, deplorable, and lamentable. EXTREMELY poor and lousy might cover it. We need more adjectives in our English language to describe Big 3 products. :P
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
>CR looks past a brand new cars reliability in the first year or two while it's new, and looks further down the road keeping track for 7 years
Just exactly how does CR do that miracle of knowing what will happen in the future? Crystal ball?
How'd it work for CR with the 2002 and up toyota-lexus cars? With the avalon they endorsed and then quickly back pedaled on the new model. With the Odyssey transmissions? With the VCM in Accords?
I think Hyundai never claimed their vehicles were good when they were crap
You have got to be kidding me.
You don't think that in their sales literature, they never said anything that would imply they built a good car? Their commercials never said anything about quality or features?
Buddy, you are delusional.
And how can you make such a blanket implication that everything GM is crap? Even beloved Consumer Reports recommends the Malibu and it has a better-than-average reliability rating, according to them.
Bill
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
The only car I would buy in the future would be one produced prior to the Govt's takeover...I wouldn't give this administration the satisfaction of buying into their arrogrance and condescending attitude toward "Capitalism".. I believe the car czar "Ron Bloom" said that he thought business should be done "at the 'end of a gun barrel", quoting "Chairman Mao"..one of his favorite rulers..Pretty strong words, great sales stragety, and don't you really get a "warm and fuzzy" feeling about owning a GM or Chrysler??????
There is only Ford which has managed to emerge from the pile of ashes called Michigan and granted they are using Mexico and Canada for much of their component supply, their attitude is All-American, and they get my vote..My first car at the age of 14 was a 35 Ford w/46 V-8, wild ride, not too great on amenities, but raw fun.. Yep, some form of a noisy Mustang is next, only had 12 Ford products in my 76 yrs, time to return..had a Holman-Moody, blueprinted/balanced 351ci in an offshore boat and a couple of big-block Fords in a cruiser.
Return to the only truly American car company and salute the "Flag".................
I'm not delusional. I believe when Hyundai started they emphasized their "value" and their thrift. Not their quality or 0-60 times. They never said we are giving you Toyota quality and undercutting Chevy prices at the same time.
I don't ever remember seeing a Hyundai commercial (yet to this day) that didn't point out how good their pricing is. Even the new Sonata commercials like to point out that the starting price is under 20K.
I never said everything GM makes is crap. However, I do know some of the stuff they make is crap, and a lot of the stuff they DID make was crap. That is factual.
However, I can pretty much confidently state everything Chrysler makes or has made was and is crap; with the exceptional "tester" car model the exception. Thank goodness CR doesn't accept the "tester" model for their reviews. They buy independently and without warning.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Like it or not, the tides will not give back to GM. Ford is sweating as well. The arrogance that lead to the failures will most likely continue in GM. I can never see them as leaders in the industry ever again.
BTW, Lemko, saw another Gen Coupe in the Wal-Mart parking lot yesterday...parked right in back of me...I was honored!!
You sound like my Dad. He is a Ford junkie from way back. His first car was a black 1950 Ford V-8 coupe. I followed my in my Grandpop's footsteps. He was a big time Chevrolet fan.
I have a Mercury Grand Marquis, but it is going away along with the Lincoln Town Car - the only two Ford products that would seriously attract my business.
There are plenty of other better-looking and better performing coupes out there. First of all, I was never in the market for such a vehicle, but if I were, a Camaro, Mustang, or Challenger would be my first choice. If I were to go foreign, I'd go for something like this:
believe when Hyundai started they emphasized their "value" and their thrift. Not their quality or 0-60 times. They never said we are giving you Toyota quality and undercutting Chevy prices at the same time.
Well, they did try capitalizing on the whole Rodney King thing when he got chased down in a Hyundai Excel in speeds of 110-115 mph, before he got beat-up and arrested. I do remember a commercial or two bragging about how quick the cars could be, although they were considered in poor taste and pulled off the air pretty quickly.
Then, as for the quality thing, for awhile they were doing the whole "Hyundai. YES, Hyundai!" like they were even shocked themselves that the cars were scoring so well on reliability studies.
The little coupe is certainly peppy with it's quirky oriential flair, and the 100k warranty..I am glad that Hyundai is furnishing employment opportunities to some of our southern states..Didn't GM and Chrysler offer 100k warranties before going belly-up???
I know Hyundai isn't going that route for it is mainly govt financed..and they would not allow any failure, cause they like the USA $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$..
Ford isn't in a pickle yet and will stay healthy unless our Federal Govt. decides they are killing GM & Chrysler with sales and profit...Profit has become a nasty word to some in DC circles..
I don't know anyone who owns a Hyundai or Kia, could it be that I am missing something??? Don't really think it would enhance any part of my life except that maybe the noisy-fart-piped Hondas, Kias,Toyos drivers would honk & wave approval..
The V-8 Mustang is still my pick, and the new V-6 Mustang is also high on the list of favorites, however due to the newness of both for 2011, I am leaning toward a new 2008 Shelby Mustang GT which has been gathering showroom time at a remote dealer in southern Fla.. great price..Will look at the 2012 Mustang..
Meanwhile I have to pass on any Hyundai offering, too Asian for me..Sushi isn't part of my diet...Quess I spent too much time in the old American car scene which had a helping hand in building our great country and defending our families...
Anybody wanting to opt for Asian cars, go for it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I subscribe to 4 different monthly car magazines so I keep abreast of most of the delicious stories in the automotive world..have done so for the last 25 yrs..Lots of paper...
Chrysler pretty much invented the extended warranty. Back in 1962, they offered a 5/50K powertrain warranty, to win back buyers who started getting burned by the 1957 models. Nevermind the fact that in a '62 Mopar, the the engine, transmission, or rear would probably be the last thing you needed to worry about. Rust, air and water leaks, electrical problems, suspension problems, yes. But those powertrains would kee on going long after most "normal" cars had bit the dust.
I remember one car test rag saying the Dodge Dart was one of the worst cars ever built, because of this. Usually, by the time a car started having passenger cabin leaks, the driveline and everything else was getting tired, so it was just time to junk the car. But, because these things would keep on going, they'd subject the owner to years of torture from those water leaks and such.
Chrysler had a habit of bringing those long warranties back right around the time you really didn't need them anymore. For instance, a 1957 car could be spotty, as the 3-speed Torqueflite was new that year, and because they had a record sales year, they kinda threw those cars and components together a bit quicker than they really should have. But by 1962, the drivelines were pretty much bulletproof.
Around 1987, Chrysler started doing a 7/70K powertrain warranty...but by that time, the cars really weren't all that bad. However, the late 70's and early 80's ones could be.
And, at some point in 2002, they went to a longer warranty, although I forget what it was (7/100K?), in response to the early/mid 1990's cars, which could be pretty crappy. But by 2002, most of the bugs were worked out. Heck, even with my 2000 Intrepid, I purchased a 5/100K extended warranty, which I never had to use once. Standard was 3/36K bumper-to-bumper. Of cours, had I NOT purchased that warranty, somehow I have a feeling that Intrepid would have turned into the worst car I ever owned!
Had I not purchased my full ext warr on my 2000 Intrepid, it may have cost me a bunch of $$$ as a number of things went wrong around 70K miles...with a 75K lease it seemed to spend a fair amount of its "final days" getting repaired at the dealer...
Until then, the car was, frankly, a very good car, in spite of being made by the worthless, shiftless, overpaid, illiterate (got to get that in, always) UAW workers...it was peppy, and got about 26-28 mpg, quite respectable for a car that size...it was a rather nice design, I never knew why they abandoned it in the mid-2000s...
They abandoned the Intrepid for the better handling Rear Drive LX platform for 2005. Remember the Intrepid was 64/36 weight distribution which makes for not so nice handling when driven hard.
Until then, the car was, frankly, a very good car, in spite of being made by the worthless, shiftless, overpaid, illiterate (got to get that in, always) UAW workers
Now now, it's a'boot time to set the record straight, eh? The Intrepid was built by CAW workers, not UAW. :P
Oh, and to be fair, mine did have a few things go wrong while under the extended warranty, but none of it was stuff that was covered by the warranty. For instance, the rubber seals around the doors shrinking. The power adjust to the passenger mirror broke, too, but that warranty had a $200 deductible, so I didn't think it was worth fixing. I also had the oil pressure light start coming on around 86,000 miles, but that was covered under a TSB, and not the warranty. Oh, and the power door lock actuator went bad, but it was covered under the original warranty at 35K miles.
Hey, thanks...now that I know it was made in Canada, my remarks and gentle descriptions of the UAW can still stand...never had I had such a good day being wrong and then being corrected...
I would have agreed with the Ford/GM making bad products in the 80's but this is really getting to be an old excuse. Anyone who is up to date on the latest knows Ford for one is ranked right in there for quality/fit/finish. Ford even bests some in some models. GM is also climbing very fast with the Malibu and Equinox to name a few. Buying American is still very possible and readily available online. You can buy many products still made here in the U.S. online. If you can wait 24-48 hours for your products and don't need them right away. Buying American should be on all of our minds when ever we can. Thinking about our purchases and how it affects us all and how we are connected in this economy will ensure economic stability for this country and future generations.
I would have agreed with the Ford/GM making bad products in the 80's but this is really getting to be an old excuse. Anyone who is up to date on the latest knows Ford for one is ranked right in there for quality/fit/finish. Ford even bests some in some models. GM is also climbing very fast with the Malibu and Equinox to name a few.
Agree with your Ford comments. GM loyalists often use this argument, but ignoring the lousy vehicles for 30 years and focusing only in this century - I drove a rental G6 and it was cheap and unimpressive inside. So was my friend's Grand Prix. So was the rental Cobalt. The Malibu is a lot better than before, and in particular GM's interiors are much improved, but the reliability is still not up to par. In comparison tests the Malibu does not usually rank near the top of its class - what is surprising to most people is that it is even close to competitive, which is why we've talked about it so much over the past few years. Yet objectively against the competition it is at least a contender, but not close enough yet.
Then let's talk about the GM advertising - motherhood and apple pie in the early part of the decade; millions of dollars for YEARS about the Volt in the latter part of the decade - and perhaps late this year the object of those YEARS of advertising will actually exist in a vehicle you can buy. The Aura was going to set the world on fire, as were the Solstice and Sky.
So I think that complaining about those who bring up the 70's and 80's as unfair is kind of an excuse, as GM is greatly improving BUT IS NOT THERE YET, even now, even this century. Reputations are built on sustained quality, something that only a few years will not provide.
Look at Hyundai and the crap reputation it rightly deserved in the 80's. It's taken 20 years, and I would say that Hyundai has been more innovative than GM to date - they appear to be trying harder.
So GM - we still hope you can turn it around, but advertising you paid it all back (whether literally true is not important - they are obviously trying to create a false impression of wild success which disingenuous, hoping that the masses are too dumb to realize it) and that they build the best cars in the world -- this is the typical, historical overpromising arrogance that we've seen for decades. A REAL change in behavior of this failed company is quite a ways from actually happening.
I drove a rental G6 and it was cheap and unimpressive inside. So was my friend's Grand Prix. So was the rental Cobalt. The Malibu is a lot better than before, and in particular GM's interiors are much improved, but the reliability is still not up to par
You have to compare price-point to price-point--and I mean actual buying prices. I can tell you unequivocally that if you drove a Cobalt 500 miles then got in a Toyota Matrix and drove 500 miles, there is no way you could objectively deny that the Cobalt is quieter and has more storage space in the rear (although the Matrix is a 'hatchback'), Luggage spills out that is swallowed by a Cobalt trunk.
Also, the vaunted Consumer Reports says the Malibu's reliability is better-than-average.
Bill
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Malibu is better than average. That's second rate in my book. Like TLONG posted, they FINALLY started making some competitive cars in 2008 and a few more since but they need to improve at a far faster rate afaic. The LaCrosse is their best effort to date.
I expect GM to eek out small improvements while the competition continues to gain market share. Nothing new there except BS'ing that they are the best is particularly annoying when they are in bankruptcy-bailout mode, don't you think??? :mad:
I was beginning to have hope about GM up until that commercial everyone has been talking about recently where the CEO made the statement about paying back all their loans and being back to making the best vehicles in the world again, as if nothing had happen in the last 1-2 years.
Fail :mad:
I do agree with you circle that this kind of attitude is what got GM into the situation they were in, in the first place, and I just hope its not a sign that they are going back down their arrogant attitude road again. In reality, they did not pay of their loans. They took TARP money to pay off the auto loans and now must owe back the TARP money. What a bunch of deceptive advertising! I mean honest to God, did they not just learn from Toyota's deception and mistakes? Guess not, though I'm not totally surprised!
GM is beginning to act like their old self, doing what ever possible to be number 1 in this country again. They don't seem to understand, being number 1 in this country is not a good thing. Every automaker that has, has been dealt with the most problems then anyone else. Thats why Toyota should be happy being number 2 or 3 in the country. Don't worry about being number 1. Let GM do that so they can have massive production again with a lack of quality control! Then we will see were they are! It seems production/sales is becoming the priority again with GM rather than being honest, about not really paying back their bailout money, and while much improved quality, they are far from making the best vehicles in the world right now!
It just amazes me that a company like GM, not even 1 year yet post bailout and bankruptcy yet can come on and act as if everything is great and they are back on top. Sorry GM, but the market and people's memories don't work that way. You can not have a complete 360 turn around in less than a year, after having problems like you had for 30 years and declaring bankruptcy. Things just don't work out that way, despite the fact your inpatient and think they do!
GM better get its act together, but their attitude and philosophy as of late is beginning to become troubling to me, and certain things the CEO and other have said here and there are starting to sound and behave pre-2008 :surprise: !
Agree with your Ford comments. GM loyalists often use this argument, but ignoring the lousy vehicles for 30 years and focusing only in this century - I drove a rental G6 and it was cheap and unimpressive inside. So was my friend's Grand Prix. So was the rental Cobalt. The Malibu is a lot better than before, and in particular GM's interiors are much improved, but the reliability is still not up to par.
I've rented a Cobalt in the midst of a rental fury of small cars where I also rented a Suzuki, a Hyundai and Kia. The Cobalt was, by far, the worst car based on interior and drive-ability. Also rented a (new style) Malibu on Maui and it was pretty nice actually, however, I wasn't impressed with the MPG I got. Then on Kauia we rented an Uplander and any positive GM vibes (from the Malibu) were squashed again.
It just amazes me that a company like GM, not even 1 year yet post bailout and bankruptcy yet can come on and act as if everything is great and they are back on top.
To be fair, most companies are going to put a positive spin on their products but this spin about their loan and the payback doesn't appear to be all that genuine. I think they faced pressure from Washington to put that stuff out there but, that's the problem with the bailout: government intervention/pressure.
Yes its kind of like blaming George W Bush 1.5 years after he left office.
Shoot, we have ya-hoo's here in Michigan still blaming former governor John Engler for our current woes 8 years after leaving office. As if Jennifer Granholm has existed in a vacuum since.
To me, it does not look like they are willing to admit they still need help. I really see no change in their way of thinking. Lying to the people is not going to help. Sooner or later we will find out. What is to make me think their newest models are stronger than ever. When they were built on a company that is on the edge of collapse.
Their company has yet shown that it can lean out and be efficient. I would much rather have a smaller company, but have quality products. I see that most of their line up is incredibly overpriced.
It seems that when were not looking they'll go right back to their old habits. Trying to act successful, when their not. They barely have their head above water, soon they could be drowning....real soon.
People would like to trust them again, but the lying will not help. Buying a car that loses so much value that its worth poo, that's GM smacking us the face...haha we got ya!
It just amazes me that a company like GM, not even 1 year yet post bailout and bankruptcy yet can come on and act as if everything is great and they are back on top. Sorry GM, but the market and people's memories don't work that way. You can not have a complete 360 turn around in less than a year, after having problems like you had for 30 years and declaring bankruptcy. Things just don't work out that way, despite the fact your inpatient and think they do!
1 in 5 vehicles sold is a General Motors product. Market share, which tanked in April, is around 20%. Others are in the mid-teens. I know everything is horrible and GM is the devil and can't do anything right or measure up to any standards but I'm just saying, 1 in 5.
thats not the point I'm trying to make. But pre-2008 1 and 5 vehicles sold were also GM. Things are looking to similar to how they were before bankruptcy and bailout and I would think GM would not take a chance of possibly going down that route!
They are beginning to act inpatient, I'm not saying things have not improved in the last year for them, they have, as you have pointed out, but that can quickly change if they are not careful. Not that much time has passed and they need to be patient.
Those who have been burned by the Big 3 simply lack trust for the Big 3.
You lack trust they are making quality vehicles. You lack trust they are selling them for a fair price. You lack trust the vehicle will be dependable in the long run. You lack trust they will cover broken down parts under warranty without hassle, delays, and other problems. You lack trust they will be around much longer. You lack trust they will spend our tax money wisely. You lack trust in their commercials and marketing where deception and fraud are commonplace.
The recent commercials about paying back the bailouts only further enhances this inherent mistrust and frankly, justifies it.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
You have to compare price-point to price-point--and I mean actual buying prices. I can tell you unequivocally that if you drove a Cobalt 500 miles then got in a Toyota Matrix and drove 500 miles, there is no way you could objectively deny that the Cobalt is quieter and has more storage space in the rear (although the Matrix is a 'hatchback'), Luggage spills out that is swallowed by a Cobalt trunk.
You should compare a Corolla to a Cobalt as a more appropriate match of vehicles. First, the Corolla is a lot more reliable. Let's also look at a Mazda 3 or a Honda Civic. I'd say those are even stronger contenders that the Cobalt should have been trying to match or exceed. GM having the 5th best (or so) out of 10 economy sedans is not doing a great job.
1 in 5 vehicles sold is a General Motors product. Market share, which tanked in April, is around 20%. Others are in the mid-teens. I know everything is horrible and GM is the devil and can't do anything right or measure up to any standards but I'm just saying, 1 in 5.
I'd be interested in knowing their market share among non-fleet buyers - those individuals who actually put up their own hard-earned money. Unless GM wants to become a fleet company, that value is very important.
The recent commercials about paying back the bailouts only further enhances this inherent mistrust and frankly, justifies it.
I guess that was my original point. Quit having Volt dancers, motherhood and apple pie, and commercials saying that you make the best cars in the world and you've paid it all back. Shut up, put more of that advertising money into the CARS and put out the best. Don't decontent the Malibu every year like you have been - is that the way to be the best, or just to be cheap?
When you keep advertising this crap then it just reinforces the public perception that not much has changed. I'm glad to hear they are changing ad agencies; hopefully the morons in charge of marketing could all get fired and we could get some intelligence behind GM. THEIR CULTURE HAS TO CHANGE. It doesn't appear that it has changed enough yet.
Comments
Yep. "something" happened all right!
When I was in the tool business, I used to hear this from a lot of our customers but when the price on the US made stuff went up and the quality on some of the foreign made tools went up, a lot of the customers quit caring.
The other day, I picked up a set of Channel Lock type pliers that wre made overseas and the crappy quality of a few years ago was gone.
And people forget. Look at Hyundai as a prime example of this.
They built junk. They improved their quality added a long warranty and people buy them now.
Bill
The Vega and Pinto bodies made cool Funny Cars at the drag strip. Loved those things!
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
They built junk. They improved their quality added a long warranty and people buy them now.
I don't think people forget when it's a large purchase such as an automobile. Since automobiles are typically a person's second largest purchase in their lifetime (and therefore relatively infrequent) they remember.
I think Hyundai never claimed their vehicles were good when they were crap. They never told anyone they had the "best" vehicles or that they had made changes and were now "better" even though they weren't. When they sold crap, they sold it cheap and didn't lie about it. No excuses needed to be made, you got what you paid for. When they improved their products, they didn't have to make commercials about "may the best car win." They simply let their pocket books speak for themselves with a 10 year 100,000 mile warranty.
The problem with the Big 3, is that they sold crap, but for the price of gold. They sold cheap product at expensive prices. They claimed they had changed, that they had improved, when in fact they had not. They did this over and over again, saying they were different "this time," that it wasn't going to be the same as the "old" stuff. They lied. They are the boy who cried wolf too many times.
People remember. I believe in rewarding good work with some form of loyalty to companies that do good work.
Real Dependability starts after the warranty expires. CR doesn't turn blind when looking past the first year or two like JD Powers does. CR can see, while JD chooses to be blind.
I've found out first hand that the first few years performance may not be a good indicator of long term reliability. My domestic car started out with lousy or poor dependability its first few years, but after the warranty expired, it wasn't even close to lousy or poor. It was tragic, terrible, horrible, deplorable, and lamentable. EXTREMELY poor and lousy might cover it. We need more adjectives in our English language to describe Big 3 products. :P
Just exactly how does CR do that miracle of knowing what will happen in the future? Crystal ball?
How'd it work for CR with the 2002 and up toyota-lexus cars? With the avalon they endorsed and then quickly back pedaled on the new model. With the Odyssey transmissions? With the VCM in Accords?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Likewise. That's why I consistently reward Cadillac and Buick my business.
You have got to be kidding me.
You don't think that in their sales literature, they never said anything that would imply they built a good car? Their commercials never said anything about quality or features?
Buddy, you are delusional.
And how can you make such a blanket implication that everything GM is crap? Even beloved Consumer Reports recommends the Malibu and it has a better-than-average reliability rating, according to them.
Bill
No, they didn't say "Hey! We suck!!" but their clear intention at the time was as competition to the Yugo.
This seems to be a Korean pattern. It's how Samsung and LG started in consumer items as well.
There is only Ford which has managed to emerge from the pile of ashes called Michigan and granted they are using Mexico and Canada for much of their component supply, their attitude is All-American, and they get my vote..My first car at the age of 14 was a 35 Ford w/46 V-8, wild ride, not too great on amenities, but raw fun.. Yep, some form of a noisy Mustang is next, only had 12 Ford products in my 76 yrs, time to return..had a Holman-Moody, blueprinted/balanced 351ci in an offshore boat and a couple of big-block Fords in a cruiser.
Return to the only truly American car company and salute the "Flag".................
I don't ever remember seeing a Hyundai commercial (yet to this day) that didn't point out how good their pricing is. Even the new Sonata commercials like to point out that the starting price is under 20K.
I never said everything GM makes is crap. However, I do know some of the stuff they make is crap, and a lot of the stuff they DID make was crap. That is factual.
However, I can pretty much confidently state everything Chrysler makes or has made was and is crap; with the exceptional "tester" car model the exception. Thank goodness CR doesn't accept the "tester" model for their reviews. They buy independently and without warning.
Genesis Coupe 1st Place
Like it or not, the tides will not give back to GM. Ford is sweating as well. The arrogance that lead to the failures will most likely continue in GM. I can never see them as leaders in the industry ever again.
BTW, Lemko, saw another Gen Coupe in the Wal-Mart parking lot yesterday...parked right in back of me...I was honored!!
Regards,
OW
I have a Mercury Grand Marquis, but it is going away along with the Lincoln Town Car - the only two Ford products that would seriously attract my business.
Well, they did try capitalizing on the whole Rodney King thing when he got chased down in a Hyundai Excel in speeds of 110-115 mph, before he got beat-up and arrested. I do remember a commercial or two bragging about how quick the cars could be, although they were considered in poor taste and pulled off the air pretty quickly.
Then, as for the quality thing, for awhile they were doing the whole "Hyundai. YES, Hyundai!" like they were even shocked themselves that the cars were scoring so well on reliability studies.
I know Hyundai isn't going that route for it is mainly govt financed..and they would not allow any failure, cause they like the USA $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$..
Ford isn't in a pickle yet and will stay healthy unless our Federal Govt. decides they are killing GM & Chrysler with sales and profit...Profit has become a nasty word to some in DC circles..
I don't know anyone who owns a Hyundai or Kia, could it be that I am missing something??? Don't really think it would enhance any part of my life except that maybe the noisy-fart-piped Hondas, Kias,Toyos drivers would honk & wave approval..
The V-8 Mustang is still my pick, and the new V-6 Mustang is also high on the list of favorites, however due to the newness of both for 2011, I am leaning toward a new 2008 Shelby Mustang GT which has been gathering showroom time at a remote dealer in southern Fla.. great price..Will look at the 2012 Mustang..
Meanwhile I have to pass on any Hyundai offering, too Asian for me..Sushi isn't part of my diet...Quess I spent too much time in the old American car scene which had a helping hand in building our great country and defending our families...
Anybody wanting to opt for Asian cars, go for it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I subscribe to 4 different monthly car magazines so I keep abreast of most of the delicious stories in the automotive world..have done so for the last 25 yrs..Lots of paper...
Yeah, but I think they were "1 year/100K miles" warranties... :P
I remember one car test rag saying the Dodge Dart was one of the worst cars ever built, because of this. Usually, by the time a car started having passenger cabin leaks, the driveline and everything else was getting tired, so it was just time to junk the car. But, because these things would keep on going, they'd subject the owner to years of torture from those water leaks and such.
Chrysler had a habit of bringing those long warranties back right around the time you really didn't need them anymore. For instance, a 1957 car could be spotty, as the 3-speed Torqueflite was new that year, and because they had a record sales year, they kinda threw those cars and components together a bit quicker than they really should have. But by 1962, the drivelines were pretty much bulletproof.
Around 1987, Chrysler started doing a 7/70K powertrain warranty...but by that time, the cars really weren't all that bad. However, the late 70's and early 80's ones could be.
And, at some point in 2002, they went to a longer warranty, although I forget what it was (7/100K?), in response to the early/mid 1990's cars, which could be pretty crappy. But by 2002, most of the bugs were worked out. Heck, even with my 2000 Intrepid, I purchased a 5/100K extended warranty, which I never had to use once. Standard was 3/36K bumper-to-bumper. Of cours, had I NOT purchased that warranty, somehow I have a feeling that Intrepid would have turned into the worst car I ever owned!
Of course a long warranty is only good if the life of the company is longer than the life of the warranty! Like Govt Motors.
Until then, the car was, frankly, a very good car, in spite of being made by the worthless, shiftless, overpaid, illiterate (got to get that in, always) UAW workers...it was peppy, and got about 26-28 mpg, quite respectable for a car that size...it was a rather nice design, I never knew why they abandoned it in the mid-2000s...
Now now, it's a'boot time to set the record straight, eh? The Intrepid was built by CAW workers, not UAW. :P
Oh, and to be fair, mine did have a few things go wrong while under the extended warranty, but none of it was stuff that was covered by the warranty.
Buying American is still very possible and readily available online. You can buy many products still made here in the U.S. online. If you can wait 24-48 hours for your products and don't need them right away. Buying American should be on all of our minds when ever we can. Thinking about our purchases and how it affects us all and how we are connected in this economy will ensure economic stability for this country and future generations.
Agree with your Ford comments.
GM loyalists often use this argument, but ignoring the lousy vehicles for 30 years and focusing only in this century - I drove a rental G6 and it was cheap and unimpressive inside. So was my friend's Grand Prix. So was the rental Cobalt. The Malibu is a lot better than before, and in particular GM's interiors are much improved, but the reliability is still not up to par. In comparison tests the Malibu does not usually rank near the top of its class - what is surprising to most people is that it is even close to competitive, which is why we've talked about it so much over the past few years. Yet objectively against the competition it is at least a contender, but not close enough yet.
Then let's talk about the GM advertising - motherhood and apple pie in the early part of the decade; millions of dollars for YEARS about the Volt in the latter part of the decade - and perhaps late this year the object of those YEARS of advertising will actually exist in a vehicle you can buy. The Aura was going to set the world on fire, as were the Solstice and Sky.
So I think that complaining about those who bring up the 70's and 80's as unfair is kind of an excuse, as GM is greatly improving BUT IS NOT THERE YET, even now, even this century. Reputations are built on sustained quality, something that only a few years will not provide.
Look at Hyundai and the crap reputation it rightly deserved in the 80's. It's taken 20 years, and I would say that Hyundai has been more innovative than GM to date - they appear to be trying harder.
So GM - we still hope you can turn it around, but advertising you paid it all back (whether literally true is not important - they are obviously trying to create a false impression of wild success which disingenuous, hoping that the masses are too dumb to realize it) and that they build the best cars in the world -- this is the typical, historical overpromising arrogance that we've seen for decades. A REAL change in behavior of this failed company is quite a ways from actually happening.
You have to compare price-point to price-point--and I mean actual buying prices. I can tell you unequivocally that if you drove a Cobalt 500 miles then got in a Toyota Matrix and drove 500 miles, there is no way you could objectively deny that the Cobalt is quieter and has more storage space in the rear (although the Matrix is a 'hatchback'), Luggage spills out that is swallowed by a Cobalt trunk.
Also, the vaunted Consumer Reports says the Malibu's reliability is better-than-average.
Bill
I expect GM to eek out small improvements while the competition continues to gain market share. Nothing new there except BS'ing that they are the best is particularly annoying when they are in bankruptcy-bailout mode, don't you think??? :mad:
Regards,
OW
Fail :mad:
I do agree with you circle that this kind of attitude is what got GM into the situation they were in, in the first place, and I just hope its not a sign that they are going back down their arrogant attitude road again. In reality, they did not pay of their loans. They took TARP money to pay off the auto loans and now must owe back the TARP money. What a bunch of deceptive advertising! I mean honest to God, did they not just learn from Toyota's deception and mistakes? Guess not, though I'm not totally surprised!
GM is beginning to act like their old self, doing what ever possible to be number 1 in this country again. They don't seem to understand, being number 1 in this country is not a good thing. Every automaker that has, has been dealt with the most problems then anyone else. Thats why Toyota should be happy being number 2 or 3 in the country. Don't worry about being number 1. Let GM do that so they can have massive production again with a lack of quality control! Then we will see were they are! It seems production/sales is becoming the priority again with GM rather than being honest, about not really paying back their bailout money, and while much improved quality, they are far from making the best vehicles in the world right now!
It just amazes me that a company like GM, not even 1 year yet post bailout and bankruptcy yet can come on and act as if everything is great and they are back on top. Sorry GM, but the market and people's memories don't work that way. You can not have a complete 360 turn around in less than a year, after having problems like you had for 30 years and declaring bankruptcy. Things just don't work out that way, despite the fact your inpatient and think they do!
GM better get its act together, but their attitude and philosophy as of late is beginning to become troubling to me, and certain things the CEO and other have said here and there are starting to sound and behave pre-2008 :surprise: !
GM loyalists often use this argument, but ignoring the lousy vehicles for 30 years and focusing only in this century - I drove a rental G6 and it was cheap and unimpressive inside. So was my friend's Grand Prix. So was the rental Cobalt. The Malibu is a lot better than before, and in particular GM's interiors are much improved, but the reliability is still not up to par.
I've rented a Cobalt in the midst of a rental fury of small cars where I also rented a Suzuki, a Hyundai and Kia. The Cobalt was, by far, the worst car based on interior and drive-ability. Also rented a (new style) Malibu on Maui and it was pretty nice actually, however, I wasn't impressed with the MPG I got. Then on Kauia we rented an Uplander and any positive GM vibes (from the Malibu) were squashed again.
To be fair, most companies are going to put a positive spin on their products but this spin about their loan and the payback doesn't appear to be all that genuine. I think they faced pressure from Washington to put that stuff out there but, that's the problem with the bailout: government intervention/pressure.
Shoot, we have ya-hoo's here in Michigan still blaming former governor John Engler for our current woes 8 years after leaving office. As if Jennifer Granholm has existed in a vacuum since.
Their company has yet shown that it can lean out and be efficient. I would much rather have a smaller company, but have quality products. I see that most of their line up is incredibly overpriced.
It seems that when were not looking they'll go right back to their old habits. Trying to act successful, when their not. They barely have their head above water, soon they could be drowning....real soon.
People would like to trust them again, but the lying will not help. Buying a car that loses so much value that its worth poo, that's GM smacking us the face...haha we got ya!
1 in 5 vehicles sold is a General Motors product. Market share, which tanked in April, is around 20%. Others are in the mid-teens. I know everything is horrible and GM is the devil and can't do anything right or measure up to any standards but I'm just saying, 1 in 5.
They are beginning to act inpatient, I'm not saying things have not improved in the last year for them, they have, as you have pointed out, but that can quickly change if they are not careful. Not that much time has passed and they need to be patient.
You lack trust they are making quality vehicles.
You lack trust they are selling them for a fair price.
You lack trust the vehicle will be dependable in the long run.
You lack trust they will cover broken down parts under warranty without hassle, delays, and other problems.
You lack trust they will be around much longer.
You lack trust they will spend our tax money wisely.
You lack trust in their commercials and marketing where deception and fraud are commonplace.
The recent commercials about paying back the bailouts only further enhances this inherent mistrust and frankly, justifies it.
You should compare a Corolla to a Cobalt as a more appropriate match of vehicles. First, the Corolla is a lot more reliable. Let's also look at a Mazda 3 or a Honda Civic. I'd say those are even stronger contenders that the Cobalt should have been trying to match or exceed. GM having the 5th best (or so) out of 10 economy sedans is not doing a great job.
I'd be interested in knowing their market share among non-fleet buyers - those individuals who actually put up their own hard-earned money. Unless GM wants to become a fleet company, that value is very important.
I guess that was my original point. Quit having Volt dancers, motherhood and apple pie, and commercials saying that you make the best cars in the world and you've paid it all back. Shut up, put more of that advertising money into the CARS and put out the best. Don't decontent the Malibu every year like you have been - is that the way to be the best, or just to be cheap?
When you keep advertising this crap then it just reinforces the public perception that not much has changed. I'm glad to hear they are changing ad agencies; hopefully the morons in charge of marketing could all get fired and we could get some intelligence behind GM. THEIR CULTURE HAS TO CHANGE. It doesn't appear that it has changed enough yet.