".....undoubtedly many Pontiac/Saturn/Saab/Hummer buyers have moved to the core brands if they are loyal to GM"
I don't know where I read it, but something like 35% of Pontiac buyers stayed "in house". Dunno about Saturn. One would think Hummer people would be more likely to stay w/GM as they would be more truck oriented. But that is still a small % of sales. I would also think that Saab buyers would be more import oriented. I also think that market share "includes" fleet sales though.
I don't know where I read it, but something like 35% of Pontiac buyers stayed "in house". Dunno about Saturn. One would think Hummer people would be more likely to stay w/GM as they would be more truck oriented. But that is still a small % of sales. I would also think that Saab buyers would be more import oriented. I also think that market share "includes" fleet sales though.
I went camping recently with a group which included a lady who previously had always bought Saturns. She and her husband had a brand new Acadia.
These are April's and the YTD numbers for GM. I assume they include Fleet. As you can see, while the core is up 33% for the month, actual totals are only up 7%. That must be due to the large number of Pontiac and Saturn buyers that are no longer accounted for.
According to autoblog's numbers, GM lost about 17,500 sales from Pontiac and Saturn last month, as opposed to 4/09. Their market share was 18.7% (183,614 / 982,302) Add those hypothetical 17,500 sales in, and the market share climbs to 20.5%
Good data. So I guess the real question is how much is the entire auto market up, year to date, and how much is GM up, year to date? You can infer the market share change if you have that data.
It's probably going to take at least 6-12 months for the GM restructuring to shake out. Then even if GM's new market share is lower, the most important data point will be whether the market share starts trending up, down, or stays flat. Although the restructuring might have made GM smaller, that's not a bad thing if they can increase their share from the new downsized company as time goes on. That would indicate products that are competitive and wooing new buyers.
The entire market is up 17%, and GM is up 13%. I would also think that even if total market share is down, if the "core" market share is up, that is a good thing.
Have to disagree with you about Corolla. My family's experience has been that the Toyota 5 speed manual trannies in these things suffer catastophic failure about every 60K miles and cost $4000 to replace. Happened to us twice. We replaced the tranny the first time, the second time, the car got sold as is. The shop that fixed it the first time - indicated that it was a common problem.
Over the years, I and my family members have been burned by both the domestic brands and the Japanese/Korean brands. I don't take any preconcieved notions with me anymore when I shop. There's two imports in my garage now, but, I certainly wouldn't have a problem replacing them with a domestic brand if I find them more to my liking next time I go shopping, and, the particular model passes muster when I research it, and, the local dealer's reputation.
When we first saw the commercial saying GM had paid back all the money it borrowed, I wondered how, during a deep recession, they had earned enough profit to pay their bills and pay back the loans to the tax payer.
Then it occurred to me that they are simply using pages from the present administration's play book. Tell partial truths. They simply took tarp money, payed off the loans (maybe), and still owe the tarp debt which they don't bother to mention. All the entitlements are still in place, so all the debt is still there and they are still in deep trouble. Isn't is somewhat strange how the media jumped all over Toyota's problems but none have noticed the GM play on words.
Isn't that like a person paying off a car loan with money they secure from a home equity loan, then bragging they got the car payed off? While never mentioning where the money came from? They still have the debt!
They also advertise that their 5 year 100K "LIMITED" drive train warranty is the Best Warranty in the Business. How can it be the BEST when Hyundai's drive train warranty is 10 year/100K? And Chrysler's is lifetime. Also most people don't drive 100K miles in 5 years. Seems the yearly average is more on the order of 12K to 15K per year.
So in that respect, companies that offer 5/60K are pretty much covering the majority of drivers over the 5 year period. GM's warranty would only help the small percentage of high mileage drivers. And chances are good that those drivers that spend so much time in their cars would have gotten rid of the GM's long before the 100K rolled around anyway. In reality, Bumper to Bumper Extended Warranties don't cost all that much, for drivers that absolutely have to have 100K miles of coverage, and the EW would also include most other things that might break.
If I were to buy an American made UAW car today, it would not be a GM product, even though I grew up in a Chevy family and had Chevys and Pontiacs for most of my 50 years of driving. GM's slogan is "Let The Best Car Win". Yet according to Consumers report they have very few cars that meet the "Average" criterior. A couple that are rated slightly above average but none that rate as high across the board as the Asian competitors.
Promise the world, deliver crap, and play the word game. Kind of like universal health care??? :confuse:
GM's overall fleet sales fell 2 percent compared with April 2009, Steve Carlisle, vice president of U.S. sales operations, said on a call with analysts and reporters. GM seeks to reduce its reliance on fleet sales, although it still has room to improve. GM wants a quarter of its U.S. deliveries this year to go to fleets, but those sales made up 32 percent of the company's sales in April, Carlisle said.
OK, they sold 32% x 183,614 = 58,756 to fleet or 124,858 to regular customers. We would need to know fleet sales from F, C and the Asians.
Maybe their infamous marketing is targeted to fleet customers!! :lemon:
Funny, my BIL bought 2 used Corollas back to back in 2000 with around 15K miles each and the first went 170K miles before he traded it for the second in 2007 which has 130K and runs perfectly.
>"Funny, my BIL bought 2 used Corollas back to back in 2000 with around 15K miles each and the first went 170K miles before he traded it for the second in 2007 which has 130K and runs perfectly."
News media has reported the run away gas pedal issues have been around since the mid to late 90's. Did you BIL have any problems with it that you know of ?
BTW we purchased a new 09 Rav4 nearly a year ago and have had absolutely "0" reasons to take it to the dealer other than an oil change. They did the gas pedal "fix" while there. Kip
>They did the gas pedal "fix" while there. >new 09 Rav4 nearly a year ago and have had absolutely "0" reasons to take it to the dealer other than an oil change.
Errrrr, "0" isn't really zero if it had the infamous toyota-lexus pedal problem. That's a flaw that needed to be fixed. It certainly isn't a part of an "oil change."
>pages from the present administration's play book. Tell partial truths.
That's what saying "no problems with my toyota" is while there was a problem.
This sounds like the Honda problems with transmissions and someone said they had had no problems with their Honda; however Honda had replaced the transmission for them under warranty when it had gone out. So bad transmission = no problems. :P
Reports of perfection in some cars are greatly exaggerated.
Errrrr, "0" isn't really zero if it had the infamous toyota-lexus pedal problem. That's a flaw that needed to be fixed. It certainly isn't a part of an "oil change."
Nah, they put the oil on the pedal.....
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Susan Doherty, marketing chief of GM, has stepped down because of this marketing incident that basically backfired. Good to see that govt is taking a no-nonsense approach on this kind of stupidity that generated more questions from the public.
w ww.manufacturing.net/News-GM-Appoints-New-US-Marketing-Chief-In-Latest-Shakeup-0- 50510.aspx
It would have been completely different if the CEO had come on and just said that things have improved, we are devoting are time and money to producing much more efficient/high quality vehicles, and we are paying our gov't loans back as I speak. They could have kept the rest of the commercial exactly the same with him walking through the production plants as he did and just say the stuff I just mentioned and that would have been perfectly fine and okay but they took it one big ridiculous/deceptive step forward which was wrong of them.
Hopefully, the next batch of commercials they won't do that and be more modest and humble with their statements, etc!
Over the years, I and my family members have been burned by both the domestic brands and the Japanese/Korean brands
Although I don't find it hard to believe the Big 3 domestic have burned you and your family members in the past, I do find it hard to believe ALL 3 BIG 3 Japan have burned you and your kin.
What about Mazda? What about Kia, Hyundai? Suzuki? Mitsubishi, Izuzu?
Surely there's a company out there that hasn't burned you before.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I considered a Saab last time I bought a car. The problem with it, and even if I hadn't of known it, is that it was too GM-ified.
Meaning crappy interior, crappy reliability scores, and overpriced. It was a decent looking vehicle on the outside though, and the powertrain was OK. But the 9-3 and 9-3 Aero Combi just couldn't compete with the Audi A3. I went with the A3. Also looked at Volvo V50 and Mazda 3, but both of those seemed too Ford-ified.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Errrrr, "0" isn't really zero if it had the infamous toyota-lexus pedal problem. That's a flaw that needed to be fixed. It certainly isn't a part of an "oil change."
Actually it is ZERO. I disagree that the pedal was flawed and needed to be fixed. They didn't require the pedal to be fixed, as they had experienced no problems or symptoms that would indicate their was a problem. It was only fixed to appease the media frenzy. So indeed, all they "needed" was an oil change.
I would agree with you had they been given any indication the pedal was failing, then it should count as a required visit for repair.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
They also advertise that their 5 year 100K "LIMITED" drive train warranty is the Best Warranty in the Business. How can it be the BEST when Hyundai's drive train warranty is 10 year/100K? And Chrysler's is lifetime.
Good point!
However, when GM and Chrysler advertise their long warranties (I do believe Chrysler's cancelled the "lifetime" warranty though - that was a short stint), they should be honest and say they are government backed warranties paid for by YOUR TAX Dollars. So there's an incentive for quality, the cheaper they make their cars, the more money the auto companies will make, and the more of your tax dollars that will be wasted on warranty repairs. Good thinking Mr. Bush and Obama!!! You 2 are smart auto executives! :mad:
Hyundai has the best warranty by far, but doesn't Mitsubishi and Kia match it?
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
"......They also advertise that their 5 year 100K "LIMITED" drive train warranty is the Best Warranty in the Business. How can it be the BEST when Hyundai's drive train warranty is 10 year/100K? And Chrysler's is lifetime."
Well, I don't notice Hyundai suing GM to stop the claim. Why??? Because, in one aspect, it is "better" (not longer). You confuse "longer" with "better".
If you had an '09 Sonata, and wanted a '11 Sonata, and sold your niece your '09 with say, 60,000 miles on it, and lets say for the sake of argument that 1 year later the tranny crapped out with 68,000 miles on it. Is it covered by Hyundai's powertrain warranty?????
NO!!!!!
Why??
Hyundai's powertrain warranty is NON-TRANSFERRABLE!!!!
GM's is, therefore if it were an '09 Malibu w/68,000 miles on it that needed a tranny, it would be covered. Therefore, GM's warranty is "better"
Hyundai can make the claim that there's is "better" because the person who bought a brand new '03 Sonata that now has a bad tranny at 68,000 miles gets their's replaced under the warranty. If GM had their powertrain warranty for the '03 Malibu, the person with the bad tranny DOESN'T get it replaced free because, at 7 years, it would be out of warranty.
"Better", not "longer". All in how you look at it. Both get to lay claim. Both are, "technically" right.
BTW, Chrysler no longer offers the lifetime warranty. For 2010, it's 5/100, just like GM's (transferrable, too)
".....Actually it is ZERO. I disagree that the pedal was flawed and needed to be fixed. They didn't require the pedal to be fixed, as they had experienced no problems or symptoms that would indicate their was a problem. It was only fixed to appease the media frenzy. So indeed, all they "needed" was an oil change"
Well, according to this logic, then if you brought ANY car back for a recall, even though it had no symptoms of what the recall was for, then it wasn't really "fixed" and therefore had no "problem" in the first place.
>Well, according to this logic, then if you brought ANY car back for a recall, even though it had no symptoms of what the recall was for, then it wasn't really "fixed" and therefore had no "problem" in the first place.
I gotta love the affected logic of some as to trying to protect the image of their favorite brands. :P
I gotta love the affected logic of some as to trying to protect the image of their favorite brands
Still, I'll give the manufacturer credit, regardless of whether they're Asian, American, or European, for at least admitting there's a problem and putting forth the effort to fix it, rather than just flat-out refusing to admit there's a problem.
However, I do have to question Toyota's recordkeeping methods sometimes. My uncle recently got a letter from Toyota reassuring him that these sudden accleration issues do NOT affect his car. However, for whatever reason, they sent the letter to me, rather than him! How Toyota got my name and address instead of his, I have no idea. I think I paid for a repair bill for him once, using my credit card, and then he wrote me a check. But his name is on the title, so you'd think they'd be able to figure it out!
And yeah, while sudden acceleration and transmissions that can crap out prematurely and such are serious issues, sometimes I have to laugh at some of these recalls. My 2000 Intrepid got recalled twice while I had it. First time, was because they left out a few pages in the owner's manual, detailing how to install an infant car seat in the back! For that, they just mailed the pages, and told you to keep them with the owner's manual.
The other recall was for some potentially defective bolts in the driver's seat. They could break, causing the backrest to fall back. I called the dealer before taking it in, asking them if I had to leave the car, or if they could do it while I wait. They said it was an all-day job. I asked them, in disbelief, if it really took all day just to take out two bolts? The response was, "well, we have to take the seat out of the car". So I responded "So it takes you all day to take out six bolts?" :confuse:
Heck, your uncle has a Corolla. He'd be lucky if he got some intended acceleration!
LOL, that reminds me of my friend back in college, who had the 1980 Accord with the 3-speed automatic, that *might* do 0-60 in 20 seconds if you only have one person on board, and on a slight down-hill slope. I remember one day me and another friend were in the car with him, when a full-sized GMC Jimmy blew past him on the left. He decided to be a jerk and floor it, to make the Jimmy work for it, but as the Jimmy blew past, my friend started panicking. The other friend and I didn't know what was going on, as the driver threw it into neutral and turned it off, and coasted to the side of the road. That was when he said the he had a problem with sudden accleration. It's probably a miracle we didn't pee ourselves with laughter from that one! It's really sad, when a car gets plagued with "sudden acceleration" and the passengers don't even know it! :P
That's a riot! Those early Hondamatics were pretty sad. I had an 80 Accord with a stick and while not a race car it could get out of its own way. It had the same kind of gearing that every Accord I've had has had - no low end torque. Once you're in third you're moving.....
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
>for at least admitting there's a problem and putting forth the effort to fix it, rather than just flat-out refusing to admit there's a problem
Certainly agree with that statement.
My point was that a potentially troublesome part is a bad part, is a flaw. So replacing parts on an engine likely to sludge under reasonable oil change intervals to improve some weak designs is certainly NOT an indication of a troublefree auto just because the engine hadn't sludged up yet. That was the logic being put forth by another poster--at least the way I followed the logic.
OK - I'll lay it out for you. Myself - Bought an Accord that suffered A/C problems multiple times, brake problems, headlight assemblies that filled with rain water, and won't stay in alignment - eating 3 sets of tire in 20K miles. Traded it for a Chrysler at 22K miles.
Honda Civic - owned by daughter - kept having window regulator problems. Exhaust manifold cracked - requiring $1K repair. Oil consumption got very excessive after 80K miles, and, car was traded off.
Honda Civic - owned by oldest son - engine valve gear worn out and burning excessive oil at 116K miles, engine replaced with fresh one.
Nissan - belonged to my middle child (son). Many niggling electrical problems, culminating in an ignition system failure and a $1500 repair. Car traded off.
Nissan - belonged to oldest son. Two manual transmission failures under warranty.Traded off when second rebuilt tranny started to fail again.
Toyota - belonged to nephew - two catastophic manual transmission failures - requiring replacement of 5 speed the first time, traded off with damaged tranny the second time for Honda. Delivered to Honda dealer via wrecker service on flatbed.
Hyundai - owned by son. Engine valve gear failure at 16K, requiring engine top end rebuild. Mass airflow sensor replaced 5 times, steering wheel replaced because cover came off, hood replaced because of rust through, - numerous other problems covered under 100K warranty. Son sold car to high school kid with 114k on it because car was a money pit - Kid drove it a week and manual transmission failed, requiring replacement.
On the domestic front - Had 1 Saturn and 4 Oldsmobiles with no problems. Had 3 Chevys - 1 was OK, two were an absolute disaster. Owned about 14 Dodge, Plymouth, and Chrysler cars, 9 were great, 2 had minor problems, and the other 3 were awful. Had 1 AMC Rambler Classic (bought used with high miles) that was like a Timex watch - it ticked a lot, but, never quit.
Brands I've had no problems with - Owned 5 Fords and 3 Jaguars that were no problem. Current stable consists of a Honda CRV and a Jaguar S-Type. My parents owned Oldsmobiles for years, and late in life - switched to BMWs and Chryslers - had 1 Olds that was troublesome along the way. Dad was still working full time and driving at 86 years old - when a heart attack got him. My 3 kids, now grown with families, now own 3 Chevys, a Dodge, a Honda, and a Toyota.
Well, I don't notice Hyundai suing GM to stop the claim. Why??? Because, in one aspect, it is "better" (not longer). You confuse "longer" with "better".
First, longer is better. Second, I don't think anyone wants to sue GM because that's the equivalent of suing the Federal Gov't. Good luck with that, it'll probably be a "Federal" judge who's check comes from the Federal Treasury.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
That's a riot! Those early Hondamatics were pretty sad. I had an 80 Accord with a stick and while not a race car it could get out of its own way. It had the same kind of gearing that every Accord I've had has had - no low end torque. Once you're in third you're moving.....
Actually his had a 3-speed automatic...I think 1980 was the first year for it? And, now that I think back on it, while an Amish horse and buggy might give it a run for its money in the quarter mile, once it got moving it wasn't bad, so maybe there's something to that gearing you mentioned. One time we went down to Busch Gardens in Williamsburg with it, and he let me drive it. No, actually he whined about having to drive that far, so as soon as we got over the Potomac into VA (maybe 25 miles into the trip) I offered to take over driving.
Merging onto highways could be pretty scary with that car, but once you got up to cruising speed, it seemed okay when it came to passing slower traffic and such. And it rolled right along at 80-85 mph just fine.
>"Well, according to this logic, then if you brought ANY car back for a recall, even though it had no symptoms of what the recall was for, then it wasn't really "fixed" and therefore had no "problem" in the first place."
Exactly! :shades:
Sometimes, manufacturer's recalls cover a range of cars where a percentage of them experienced, or may experience, some type of issue. They don't know which cars got a defective widget, but to be on the safe side, they check out all cars in the potential problem range.
Example: my 89 year old moms 1995 Explorer was recalled in the last few months. Yep, 15 years old and being recalled. The potential problem was some type of fluid leak that could result in a fire under the hood. Ford had the car for an hour or so and returned it to her, "Okay"! She took their word for it and left the dealership.
Was she having a problem? Not in my opinion!
To me, any trip to the dealer to head off a potential problem is showing responsibility on the part of the dealer and/or manufacturer. My owners manual says to change the oil at 5000 miles. There is nothing wrong with the car, but to head off a possible engine failure, I get the oil changed.
After having our 95 Maxima serviced, we got a phone call saying they had discovered a problem with the torque setting on the wrench they had used when they rotated the tires. They didn't know if there was a problem when my tires were rotated, because they didn't know exactly when the wrench went out of specs. I went back to the dealer and they check the lugs nuts with a manual torque wrench. "Okay" ! There was no problem but that was a dealer recall on a certain range of cars the tool was used on.
We had "0" issues with the RAV4's accelerator pedal, But to head off a potential failure we followed the manufacturers suggestion and got the potential fix to head off a potential problem while the oil was being changed. In the future, if the car should decide to not slow when we take our foot off the pedal, that will be a problem.
Now to put things in proper perspective. Within the first few times of lowering the left side back door window on my Honda Ridgeline, the window got crooked because it came out of it's track. That was a problem, in my opinion.
My friend`s nephew`s brother`s cousin had the same problems except the foreign nameplates be replaced by Detroit 3 and vice versa !!
Doesn`t change anything ..There is an exception always to a rule.. Majority of the masses did not have your goodluck. And all the reviews,reports and findings about poor Det 3 reliability all these years were maliciously fabricated by the media !! Ya Right !! :shades:
Hon/Toyo started initially disastrously with cars like Toyopet etc etc.. But boy,did they improve and come back later harder?? And have been there since. Same with Hyundai-started with excel-- and now some good quality products.. And to think that Det3 have a 100 yr history whereas Hyundai has 20 yr history in US !!! :sick:
Taiwan, (then known as Formosa) is the island where the Nationalist Chinese government led by Chaing Kai-Shek fled after the Communists led by Mao took over mainland China in 1949. The Communist Chinese have been eyeing up this island ever since.
I took that 80 Accord around the country in 1982. I can vouch for the fact that it would go high speeds for long periods of time with no problem. Spent two of the longest days of my life on that trip - one driving across South Dakota and another driving across Texas. If I found out I had one day to live I'd want to spend it driving from El Paso to Kerrville. That seemed like a year.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
The big secret that they never mention is that mainland China and Taiwan are so interconnected economically that it is not in China's best interests to do anything about it.
It sure does rub them the wrong way though.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
toyota has proven to be so untrustworthy that it makes me wonder, why do so many Americans buy toyotas in huge numbers ? Especially recently just because toyota gave big incentives. I say, those incentives will turn out to be big expensive mistakes down the road.
Its just common sense, visit a doctor who is trustworthy, use a lawyer who you trust, marry your kid to a spouse whom you trust, but buy a car from a dishonest and tricky, callous toyota ? That makes no sense to me.
No automaker is perfect, but I am convinced that toyota's attitude and greed is way out of league with the other automakers.
Or is it because Americans take those jd power ratings so seriously that they keep coming back to toyota ? Think abt this : toyota has proven to have so much troubles, yet jd power consistently give them high ratings. It goes against logic. Perhaps toyota lobbied them for those high ratings the way they lobbied NHTSA to minimise recalls and investigations as reported not long ago.
For me, I don't care at all for jd power or cr, they after all can be influenced too. Use common sense. How can quality be good if the company is such a jerk ?
Use common sense. How can quality be good if the company is such a jerk ?
I can think of lots of reasons quality from a company could be good even if they were all jerks. For one, jerkiness and incompetence are unrelated. I'd rather buy from a company that is jerky than one that is incompetent.
Second, you saying Toyota is a jerk is an opinion. Toyota's quality being excellent is a fact. I'd rather go by facts.
By the way, most educated people don't pay attention to JD Power, but they do care seriously what CR has to say.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Comments
This is a story from Automotive News, the industry publication:
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100503/RETAIL01/100509956/1- 261
According to the article, GM's sales to the 4 core brands were UP 33% to individuals, and DOWN 2% to fleets. That is, I believe, 4/10 vs. 4/09
IMHO the UP percentages are not so important to compare how they are doing against the market because
- the whole economy and sales cycle is up
- undoubtedly many Pontiac/Saturn/Saab/Hummer buyers have moved to the core brands if they are loyal to GM
That's why market share seems more relevant.
The Uplander hasn't been sold in the U.S. for two years now.
I don't know where I read it, but something like 35% of Pontiac buyers stayed "in house". Dunno about Saturn. One would think Hummer people would be more likely to stay w/GM as they would be more truck oriented. But that is still a small % of sales. I would also think that Saab buyers would be more import oriented. I also think that market share "includes" fleet sales though.
I don't know where I read it, but something like 35% of Pontiac buyers stayed "in house". Dunno about Saturn. One would think Hummer people would be more likely to stay w/GM as they would be more truck oriented. But that is still a small % of sales. I would also think that Saab buyers would be more import oriented. I also think that market share "includes" fleet sales though.
I went camping recently with a group which included a lady who previously had always bought Saturns. She and her husband had a brand new Acadia.
General Motors**** 183,614 172,150 7% 659,475 581,852 13%
These are April's and the YTD numbers for GM. I assume they include Fleet. As you can see, while the core is up 33% for the month, actual totals are only up 7%. That must be due to the large number of Pontiac and Saturn buyers that are no longer accounted for.
According to autoblog's numbers, GM lost about 17,500 sales from Pontiac and Saturn last month, as opposed to 4/09. Their market share was 18.7% (183,614 / 982,302) Add those hypothetical 17,500 sales in, and the market share climbs to 20.5%
It's probably going to take at least 6-12 months for the GM restructuring to shake out. Then even if GM's new market share is lower, the most important data point will be whether the market share starts trending up, down, or stays flat. Although the restructuring might have made GM smaller, that's not a bad thing if they can increase their share from the new downsized company as time goes on. That would indicate products that are competitive and wooing new buyers.
Regards:
OldCEM
Regards:
OldCEM
Then it occurred to me that they are simply using pages from the present administration's play book. Tell partial truths. They simply took tarp money, payed off the loans (maybe), and still owe the tarp debt which they don't bother to mention. All the entitlements are still in place, so all the debt is still there and they are still in deep trouble. Isn't is somewhat strange how the media jumped all over Toyota's problems but none have noticed the GM play on words.
Isn't that like a person paying off a car loan with money they secure from a home equity loan, then bragging they got the car payed off? While never mentioning where the money came from? They still have the debt!
They also advertise that their 5 year 100K "LIMITED" drive train warranty is the Best Warranty in the Business. How can it be the BEST when Hyundai's drive train warranty is 10 year/100K? And Chrysler's is lifetime.
Also most people don't drive 100K miles in 5 years. Seems the yearly average is more on the order of 12K to 15K per year.
So in that respect, companies that offer 5/60K are pretty much covering the majority of drivers over the 5 year period. GM's warranty would only help the small percentage of high mileage drivers. And chances are good that those drivers that spend so much time in their cars would have gotten rid of the GM's long before the 100K rolled around anyway. In reality, Bumper to Bumper Extended Warranties don't cost all that much, for drivers that absolutely have to have 100K miles of coverage, and the EW would also include most other things that might break.
If I were to buy an American made UAW car today, it would not be a GM product, even though I grew up in a Chevy family and had Chevys and Pontiacs for most of my 50 years of driving. GM's slogan is "Let The Best Car Win". Yet according to Consumers report they have very few cars that meet the "Average" criterior. A couple that are rated slightly above average but none that rate as high across the board as the Asian competitors.
Promise the world, deliver crap, and play the word game. Kind of like universal health care??? :confuse:
Kip
OK, they sold 32% x 183,614 = 58,756 to fleet or 124,858 to regular customers. We would need to know fleet sales from F, C and the Asians.
Maybe their infamous marketing is targeted to fleet customers!! :lemon:
Regards,
OW
WSJ MDC Auto Sales
GM is average like their dependability.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
News media has reported the run away gas pedal issues have been around since the mid to late 90's. Did you BIL have any problems with it that you know of ?
BTW we purchased a new 09 Rav4 nearly a year ago and have had absolutely "0" reasons to take it to the dealer other than an oil change. They did the gas pedal "fix" while there.
Kip
>new 09 Rav4 nearly a year ago and have had absolutely "0" reasons to take it to the dealer other than an oil change.
Errrrr, "0" isn't really zero if it had the infamous toyota-lexus pedal problem. That's a flaw that needed to be fixed. It certainly isn't a part of an "oil change."
>pages from the present administration's play book. Tell partial truths.
That's what saying "no problems with my toyota" is while there was a problem.
This sounds like the Honda problems with transmissions and someone said they had had no problems with their Honda; however Honda had replaced the transmission for them under warranty when it had gone out. So bad transmission = no problems. :P
Reports of perfection in some cars are greatly exaggerated.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Regards,
OW
Nah, they put the oil on the pedal.....
w ww.manufacturing.net/News-GM-Appoints-New-US-Marketing-Chief-In-Latest-Shakeup-0- 50510.aspx
It would have been completely different if the CEO had come on and just said that things have improved, we are devoting are time and money to producing much more efficient/high quality vehicles, and we are paying our gov't loans back as I speak. They could have kept the rest of the commercial exactly the same with him walking through the production plants as he did and just say the stuff I just mentioned and that would have been perfectly fine and okay but they took it one big ridiculous/deceptive step forward which was wrong of them.
Hopefully, the next batch of commercials they won't do that and be more modest and humble with their statements, etc!
Although I don't find it hard to believe the Big 3 domestic have burned you and your family members in the past, I do find it hard to believe ALL 3 BIG 3 Japan have burned you and your kin.
What about Mazda? What about Kia, Hyundai? Suzuki? Mitsubishi, Izuzu?
Surely there's a company out there that hasn't burned you before.
Meaning crappy interior, crappy reliability scores, and overpriced. It was a decent looking vehicle on the outside though, and the powertrain was OK. But the 9-3 and 9-3 Aero Combi just couldn't compete with the Audi A3. I went with the A3. Also looked at Volvo V50 and Mazda 3, but both of those seemed too Ford-ified.
Actually it is ZERO. I disagree that the pedal was flawed and needed to be fixed. They didn't require the pedal to be fixed, as they had experienced no problems or symptoms that would indicate their was a problem. It was only fixed to appease the media frenzy. So indeed, all they "needed" was an oil change.
I would agree with you had they been given any indication the pedal was failing, then it should count as a required visit for repair.
Good point!
However, when GM and Chrysler advertise their long warranties (I do believe Chrysler's cancelled the "lifetime" warranty though - that was a short stint), they should be honest and say they are government backed warranties paid for by YOUR TAX Dollars. So there's an incentive for quality, the cheaper they make their cars, the more money the auto companies will make, and the more of your tax dollars that will be wasted on warranty repairs. Good thinking Mr. Bush and Obama!!! You 2 are smart auto executives! :mad:
Hyundai has the best warranty by far, but doesn't Mitsubishi and Kia match it?
Well, I don't notice Hyundai suing GM to stop the claim. Why??? Because, in one aspect, it is "better" (not longer). You confuse "longer" with "better".
If you had an '09 Sonata, and wanted a '11 Sonata, and sold your niece your '09 with say, 60,000 miles on it, and lets say for the sake of argument that 1 year later the tranny crapped out with 68,000 miles on it. Is it covered by Hyundai's powertrain warranty?????
NO!!!!!
Why??
Hyundai's powertrain warranty is NON-TRANSFERRABLE!!!!
GM's is, therefore if it were an '09 Malibu w/68,000 miles on it that needed a tranny, it would be covered. Therefore, GM's warranty is "better"
Hyundai can make the claim that there's is "better" because the person who bought a brand new '03 Sonata that now has a bad tranny at 68,000 miles gets their's replaced under the warranty. If GM had their powertrain warranty for the '03 Malibu, the person with the bad tranny DOESN'T get it replaced free because, at 7 years, it would be out of warranty.
"Better", not "longer". All in how you look at it. Both get to lay claim. Both are, "technically" right.
BTW, Chrysler no longer offers the lifetime warranty. For 2010, it's 5/100, just like GM's (transferrable, too)
I know one thing, I'm not paying $179 to Automotive News for the data center just to find that out.
Well, according to this logic, then if you brought ANY car back for a recall, even though it had no symptoms of what the recall was for, then it wasn't really "fixed" and therefore had no "problem" in the first place.
NOT!!!!
I gotta love the affected logic of some as to trying to protect the image of their favorite brands. :P
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Still, I'll give the manufacturer credit, regardless of whether they're Asian, American, or European, for at least admitting there's a problem and putting forth the effort to fix it, rather than just flat-out refusing to admit there's a problem.
However, I do have to question Toyota's recordkeeping methods sometimes. My uncle recently got a letter from Toyota reassuring him that these sudden accleration issues do NOT affect his car. However, for whatever reason, they sent the letter to me, rather than him! How Toyota got my name and address instead of his, I have no idea. I think I paid for a repair bill for him once, using my credit card, and then he wrote me a check. But his name is on the title, so you'd think they'd be able to figure it out!
And yeah, while sudden acceleration and transmissions that can crap out prematurely and such are serious issues, sometimes I have to laugh at some of these recalls. My 2000 Intrepid got recalled twice while I had it. First time, was because they left out a few pages in the owner's manual, detailing how to install an infant car seat in the back! For that, they just mailed the pages, and told you to keep them with the owner's manual.
The other recall was for some potentially defective bolts in the driver's seat. They could break, causing the backrest to fall back. I called the dealer before taking it in, asking them if I had to leave the car, or if they could do it while I wait. They said it was an all-day job. I asked them, in disbelief, if it really took all day just to take out two bolts? The response was, "well, we have to take the seat out of the car". So I responded "So it takes you all day to take out six bolts?" :confuse:
LOL, that reminds me of my friend back in college, who had the 1980 Accord with the 3-speed automatic, that *might* do 0-60 in 20 seconds if you only have one person on board, and on a slight down-hill slope. I remember one day me and another friend were in the car with him, when a full-sized GMC Jimmy blew past him on the left. He decided to be a jerk and floor it, to make the Jimmy work for it, but as the Jimmy blew past, my friend started panicking. The other friend and I didn't know what was going on, as the driver threw it into neutral and turned it off, and coasted to the side of the road. That was when he said the he had a problem with sudden accleration. It's probably a miracle we didn't pee ourselves with laughter from that one! It's really sad, when a car gets plagued with "sudden acceleration" and the passengers don't even know it! :P
That's a riot! Those early Hondamatics were pretty sad. I had an 80 Accord with a stick and while not a race car it could get out of its own way. It had the same kind of gearing that every Accord I've had has had - no low end torque. Once you're in third you're moving.....
Certainly agree with that statement.
My point was that a potentially troublesome part is a bad part, is a flaw. So replacing parts on an engine likely to sludge under reasonable oil change intervals to improve some weak designs is certainly NOT an indication of a troublefree auto just because the engine hadn't sludged up yet. That was the logic being put forth by another poster--at least the way I followed the logic.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Myself - Bought an Accord that suffered A/C problems multiple times, brake problems, headlight assemblies that filled with rain water, and won't stay in alignment - eating 3 sets of tire in 20K miles. Traded it for a Chrysler at 22K miles.
Honda Civic - owned by daughter - kept having window regulator problems. Exhaust manifold cracked - requiring $1K repair. Oil consumption got very excessive after 80K miles, and, car was traded off.
Honda Civic - owned by oldest son - engine valve gear worn out and burning excessive oil at 116K miles, engine replaced with fresh one.
Nissan - belonged to my middle child (son). Many niggling electrical problems, culminating in an ignition system failure and a $1500 repair. Car traded off.
Nissan - belonged to oldest son. Two manual transmission failures under warranty.Traded off when second rebuilt tranny started to fail again.
Toyota - belonged to nephew - two catastophic manual transmission failures - requiring replacement of 5 speed the first time, traded off with damaged tranny the second time for Honda. Delivered to Honda dealer via wrecker service on flatbed.
Hyundai - owned by son. Engine valve gear failure at 16K, requiring engine top end rebuild. Mass airflow sensor replaced 5 times, steering wheel replaced because cover came off, hood replaced because of rust through, - numerous other problems covered under 100K warranty. Son sold car to high school kid with 114k on it because car was a money pit - Kid drove it a week and manual transmission failed, requiring replacement.
On the domestic front - Had 1 Saturn and 4 Oldsmobiles with no problems. Had 3 Chevys - 1 was OK, two were an absolute disaster. Owned about 14 Dodge, Plymouth, and Chrysler cars, 9 were great, 2 had minor problems, and the other 3 were awful. Had 1 AMC Rambler Classic (bought used with high miles) that was like a Timex watch - it ticked a lot, but, never quit.
Brands I've had no problems with - Owned 5 Fords and 3 Jaguars that were no problem. Current stable consists of a Honda CRV and a Jaguar S-Type. My parents owned Oldsmobiles for years, and late in life - switched to BMWs and Chryslers - had 1 Olds that was troublesome along the way. Dad was still working full time and driving at 86 years old - when a heart attack got him. My 3 kids, now grown with families, now own 3 Chevys, a Dodge, a Honda, and a Toyota.
Regards:
OldCEM
First, longer is better. Second, I don't think anyone wants to sue GM because that's the equivalent of suing the Federal Gov't. Good luck with that, it'll probably be a "Federal" judge who's check comes from the Federal Treasury.
Only in your opinion. Tell that to someone buying a used Hyundai.
Let me dig up the source...
Actually his had a 3-speed automatic...I think 1980 was the first year for it? And, now that I think back on it, while an Amish horse and buggy might give it a run for its money in the quarter mile, once it got moving it wasn't bad, so maybe there's something to that gearing you mentioned. One time we went down to Busch Gardens in Williamsburg with it, and he let me drive it. No, actually he whined about having to drive that far, so as soon as we got over the Potomac into VA (maybe 25 miles into the trip) I offered to take over driving.
Merging onto highways could be pretty scary with that car, but once you got up to cruising speed, it seemed okay when it came to passing slower traffic and such. And it rolled right along at 80-85 mph just fine.
Exactly! :shades:
Sometimes, manufacturer's recalls cover a range of cars where a percentage of them experienced, or may experience, some type of issue. They don't know which cars got a defective widget, but to be on the safe side, they check out all cars in the potential problem range.
Example: my 89 year old moms 1995 Explorer was recalled in the last few months. Yep, 15 years old and being recalled. The potential problem was some type of fluid leak that could result in a fire under the hood. Ford had the car for an hour or so and returned it to her, "Okay"! She took their word for it and left the dealership.
Was she having a problem? Not in my opinion!
To me, any trip to the dealer to head off a potential problem is showing responsibility on the part of the dealer and/or manufacturer. My owners manual says to change the oil at 5000 miles. There is nothing wrong with the car, but to head off a possible engine failure, I get the oil changed.
After having our 95 Maxima serviced, we got a phone call saying they had discovered a problem with the torque setting on the wrench they had used when they rotated the tires. They didn't know if there was a problem when my tires were rotated, because they didn't know exactly when the wrench went out of specs. I went back to the dealer and they check the lugs nuts with a manual torque wrench. "Okay" ! There was no problem but that was a dealer recall on a certain range of cars the tool was used on.
We had "0" issues with the RAV4's accelerator pedal, But to head off a potential failure we followed the manufacturers suggestion and got the potential fix to head off a potential problem while the oil was being changed. In the future, if the car should decide to not slow when we take our foot off the pedal, that will be a problem.
Now to put things in proper perspective. Within the first few times of lowering the left side back door window on my Honda Ridgeline, the window got crooked because it came out of it's track. That was a problem, in my opinion.
Kip
Doesn`t change anything ..There is an exception always to a rule.. Majority of the masses did not have your goodluck. And all the reviews,reports and findings about poor Det 3 reliability all these years were maliciously fabricated by the media !! Ya Right !! :shades:
Hon/Toyo started initially disastrously with cars like Toyopet etc etc.. But boy,did they improve and come back later harder?? And have been there since. Same with Hyundai-started with excel-- and now some good quality products.. And to think that Det3 have a 100 yr history whereas Hyundai has 20 yr history in US !!! :sick:
It sure does rub them the wrong way though.
toyota has proven to be so untrustworthy that it makes me wonder, why do so many Americans buy toyotas in huge numbers ? Especially recently just because toyota gave big incentives. I say, those incentives will turn out to be big expensive mistakes down the road.
Its just common sense, visit a doctor who is trustworthy, use a lawyer who you trust, marry your kid to a spouse whom you trust, but buy a car from a dishonest and tricky, callous toyota ? That makes no sense to me.
No automaker is perfect, but I am convinced that toyota's attitude and greed is way out of league with the other automakers.
Or is it because Americans take those jd power ratings so seriously that they keep coming back to toyota ? Think abt this : toyota has proven to have so much troubles, yet jd power consistently give them high ratings. It goes against logic. Perhaps toyota lobbied them for those high ratings the way they lobbied NHTSA to minimise recalls and investigations as reported not long ago.
For me, I don't care at all for jd power or cr, they after all can be influenced too. Use common sense. How can quality be good if the company is such a jerk ?
I can think of lots of reasons quality from a company could be good even if they were all jerks. For one, jerkiness and incompetence are unrelated. I'd rather buy from a company that is jerky than one that is incompetent.
Second, you saying Toyota is a jerk is an opinion. Toyota's quality being excellent is a fact. I'd rather go by facts.
By the way, most educated people don't pay attention to JD Power, but they do care seriously what CR has to say.
That is your opinion, not a fact.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,