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Comments
I can't say that I disagree on a pragmatic level.
However, how does a country handle it when another country puts tariffs on their product in order to protect the first country's business and manufacturing while complaining if the second country puts tariffs on the products in retaliation. Free trade is a nice mantra, but what does a country do to get that result?
Japan is my best example.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The D3 made it clear way back in the 70s that they weren't interested in selling American cars to Japanese drivers. In Japan, traffic moves on the left side of the road, which means that the driver's controls must be on the right side of the car. But the D3 didn't want to invest the money required to satisfy Japanese buyers. Instead, they shipped a few hundred stock cars to showrooms in Japan & then wondered why those cars didn't sell.
Can you imagine how poorly the Japanese brands would have fared in this country if they had taken the same take-it-or-leave-it approach?
You'd think the D3 would have tried to think of SOMETHING better than that. Heck, all three of them had Australian divisions with right-hand-drive cars, and I'm sure various European divisions did as well. Couldn't they have just tried shipping some of those over to Japan?
Heck, even in the 1950's they had it figured out! Something like this would have been taxed to hell in Japan though, I'm sure. I think they tax cars partially based on width, and also on displacement of the engine.
So then you are speculating?
Also, in Japan they prefer very small cars with weak engines due to taxes. So you're saying the D3 made Japanese market-competitive vehicles that were small and RHD? :surprise:
I don't believe that.
Sorry, but when I hear "level playing field", I do a wallet check because I know that someone wants to pick my pocket.
Seriously - if you're talking about using basic & universally accepted environmental standards as a screen, then I might go along with you. But I can't accept the idea of a import toll booth to "protect" politically connected domestic industries that can't otherwise compete. That goes way beyond what I think of as government's legitimate role.
As both you & Tlong point out, Japanese motor vehicle fees favored very small cars with engines under 1000 cc. Even without those taxes, most Japanese motorists wouldn't buy larger cars because of insane traffic congestion in & around Tokyo, where most of the population lives.
The Aussie cars, as I recall, were huge by Japanese standards. You mentioned European cars, but only the Brits build RHD cars. And even in the 70s, no one who valued reliability would drive an English car.
Cars no larger than a 70s Chevy Nova were considered limos in Japan & were almost always chauffeur-driven.
Yep, I sure am!
If the smallest of the "Big Four" at the time, Studebaker, did, I'm sure the Big Three did also, as confirmed by other posters about the same time I posted my last post.
My friend, son of a Studebaker dealer, said he was surprised to climb into a Studebaker taxi in Tokyo while on R&R during the Korean War.
I'd imagine one of the first 70's domestics that would have had a snowball's chance in hell was the Chevette. Small, narrow, cheap, fairly space-efficient, and available with 4 doors. But, it was already being built in Japan, as the Isuzu I-Mark!
I'd imagine cars like the Pinto and Vega, while small to most domestic car buyers, would still have been too big for your typical Japanese buyer. And besides that, they were horribly inefficient when it came to use of space. They were essentially 2-passenger cars with minimal back seat space. And the Vega especially was inefficient, because it was designed to look like a baby Camaro, so it was low-slung and all stretched out.
And yeah, the Aussie cars were a bit on the large-ish side. They didn't make the big brutes like what we had here in the US, but I think their biggest cars were equal to, or a bit bigger than, our compacts of the era. Still too big to be very popular in the Japanese market.
It has nothing to do with political connections. If you want to play in a first world market, you can be held to first world levels of social and environmental responsibility and accountability. Anything short of that is not free trade, it is unfair trade wrought to, in the end, benefit those top few, most of whom deserve a one way holiday to the gallows, this one not in an ill-begotten private jet.
Anything less just dumbs us down - and man are we dumbing down fast right now. We don't need to emulate the criminals.
This is a 1970 Toyota Crown
When you look at the average spending habits and behaviors of US citizens, I think dumbing down is already here. Half of them pay no FIT and still expect more from their government. :surprise:
Interestingly enough, the Sonata they had was an SE turbo, and for $27K it had cloth seats!!!! The Regal they had for the same price (a CXL 2.4) Had leather, and the quality if the interior was superior to the Sonata. The Regal's interior was on par with the TSX, although the TSX's seats were wider and more comfortable. The Audi A4"s interior was the best, but at $52K..............
Your counterargument is even weaker. The Japanese succeeded here largely because they designed & built cars specifically for the North American market. (Good examples of this are the Honda Accord & later, the Toyota Camry.)
how can you make a business case when even if you had the right cars to sell no one would or could buy them because a) they support their own automakers b) the import tax makes it cost prohibitive
The business case is glaringly obvious: by the 1970s, Japan was the world's 3rd wealthiest nation, on its way to becoming number 2. It should have been clear to anyone with a pulse that if you were serious about being a global player in the auto industry, you should be looking at the Japanese market.
The problem was partly the UAW's indifference - if not outright hostility - to building high-quality cars, but it was also the D3's insular management. (Car & Driver published a scathing essay way back in '69 that blasted senior American auto industry managers as a bunch of incompetent time-servers unfit to face the challenges of the 1970s.)
Long story short, the fact that something worthwhile is hard to accomplish is really a pathetically weak excuse for not even trying to do it.
Geez, not the Rambler American. Long ago, I had a '68. It's a miracle that I survived it.
there is a difference between "hard to accomplish" and impossible. when japans govt effectively shuts the door on foreign competition. why not let japans auto industry compete with the world on their own turf?
There was also a version of the car called the Daewoo Maepsy.
Argentina
GMC Chevette 4
Opel K-180 4
Australia
Holden Gemini 1, 4, w
Holden Piazza Coupé
Brazil
Chevrolet Chevette 2,3,4
Chevrolet Marajó w
Chevrolet Chevy 500 t
Canada
Chevrolet Chevette 3,5
Pontiac Acadian 3, 5
Colombia
Chevrolet Chevette
Ecuador
Aymesa Cóndor
Chevrolet Cargo
Germany
Opel Kadett C 2,3,4,w, targa
Japan
Isuzu Bellett Gemini 1,4
Isuzu Gemini 1, 4
Isuzu Piazza Coupe, totally different body styling.
Malaysia
Opel Gemini
New Zealand
Vauxhall Chevanne v
South Korea
Saehan Bird 4
Saehan Max t
Daewoo Maepsy 4
Daewoo Max t
UK
Vauxhall Chevette 2,3,4,w
Bedford Chevanne v
United States
Chevrolet Chevette 3,5
Buick-Opel 1,4;
Pontiac T1000 3,5
Opel-Isuzu 1,4
Isuzu Impulse See "Piazza/Impulse" above
Isuzu I-Mark 1,4
Uruguay
Grumett Color
Venezuela
Chevette
San Remo w
[edit] Complete list of GM T-cars (front-wheel drive)Australia
Holden Astra
Holden Zafira
Canada
Asüna GT hatchback
Asüna SE sedan
Passport Optima
Germany
Opel Kadett D
Opel Kadett E
Opel Astra F/A and G/B
Opel Zafira A
Japan
Subaru Traviq (rebadged Opel Zafira)
Latin America
Chevrolet Zafira A
Chevrolet Astra F/A and G/B
Chevrolet Vectra (Opel Astra and Astra Sedan H/C)
Russia
Chevrolet Viva
South Africa
Opel Kadett F
Opel Monza (Not to be confused with the German Opel Monza)
South Korea
Daewoo Cielo
Daewoo LeMans
Daewoo Nexia
Daewoo Racer
Daewoo Lanos
Daewoo Kalos
United Kingdom
Vauxhall Astra
Vauxhall Belmont
Vauxhall Zafira
United States
Pontiac LeMans (also sold in New Zealand)
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Also, in Japan they prefer very small cars with weak engines due to taxes. So you're saying the D3 made Japanese market-competitive vehicles that were small and RHD?"
No speculation there, they DID make them (see lemko's post) Now, speculation is whether or not those cars were imported and marketed in Japan.
Here is an interesting article:
http://autos.aol.com/article/japan-bias/
Notice one of the bottom statements:
".....In any case, the sales figures for U.S. vehicles abroad don’t always correspond to their appeal to customers, Vitale said. "
CNN Headline News posted a few years back, what transportation suppliers did to assist victims of 9/11/01 (as most every American did):
Ford gave $10 million to the American Red Cross, matched employee contributions, as well as gave ten Excursions to the NYFD, along with Emergency Response team services and office space to displaced government employees.
GM gave $10 million to the American Red Cross, matched employee contributions, and gave the Red Cross a fleet of vans, SUV's, and trucks.
Chrysler (then Daimler/Chrysler) gave $10 million to support the children and victims of the disaster.
Harley Davidson gave $1 million, and thirty new motorcyles, to the NYPD.
Hyundai gave $300,000 to the American Red Cross.
Volkswagen/Audi funded a $2 million foundation to assist the victims of the World Trade Center and their children.
BMW, Daewoo, Honda, Isuzu, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Porsche, Subaru, Suzuki, and Toyota did nothing, according to CNN.
I wish I had bought one. Not a great winter car, but a cheap rear driver for summer throwing around. Altho not too fast, as the front ends had a weak suspension. Ok the whole car was weak....but those Isuzu diesels were great.
I think we did get the Chevette Diesel in the states. IIRC, it was a 1.8 unit with something like 52 hp?
Hint: Check snopes.com before you post unverified "news stories" you found in your inbox.
Here are the facts.
BMW, Daewoo, Honda, Isuzu, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Porsche, Subaru, Suzuki, and Toyota did nothing
With the exception of Daewoo, that statement is 100% inaccurate.
I think that it's interesting that Snopes notes that this urban legend gained new life just about the same time that Detroit was begging for taxpayer dollars a couple of years ago...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
But any rear driver has a special character of drive don't they? Always fun. The end of the car that should be driven.. :shades:
i have never heard of snopes, are they a more reliable source than Cnn?
So now we're judging companies by how much they donated?
It's well known that Americans are generous, generally far more than the rest of the world. It doesn't surprise me or bother me that many companies didn't donate to 911 or any other cause.
Then again, if a company like Toyota gave a bunch of money to a particular crisis or cause, many here would just say it was for marketing purposes. Myself included as that's why most companies donate. It looks good and gets their name in front of people.
I think Wal-mart was on the ground around New Orleans with Katrina before FEMA (but we still need to hate them). My wife's employer sent her down there for two weeks to hand out free drugs to those who needed them (anyone who wanted to go was encouraged to and given full pay with full living expenses). On the plane heading down there 90% of the passengers were from big retail chains.
The mom and pop stores which everyone seems to miss, could never have put together that kind of response.
Note that an actual CNN citation is not given - just someone saying taht CNN said.
I do note that the domestic makers still stand out in amounts contributed.
Yeah, I think they existed. 52HP sounds about right, I believe those early 4 cyl diesels were not turbocharged and I don't think any diesel w/o a turbo can put out much power.
Escort diesels were available and I do recall see a few of them from time to time. I believe there was even a Tempo diesel, but I believe that was very rare.
That surprised me as well...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Times must have been tough if you needed a stereo out of a Temp, from a junk yard no less;) Please tell me it wasn't a factory unit....and you lucked out by finding a nice Alpine or Blaupunkt from back in the day that was used to drown out that Mazda diesel chatter....
I've always liked Jetta's but VW's idea to actually make a VW the "peoples car" by cheapening them up has caused them to lose appeal to me. Now it's just another compact to me. The TDI and upcoming GLI sport model still have some appeal, but other than those two, the Jetta has lost a lot IMO.
Interestingly enough, the Sonata they had was an SE turbo, and for $27K it had cloth seats!!!! The Regal they had for the same price (a CXL 2.4) Had leather, and the quality if the interior was superior to the Sonata.
I expect the Buick to have a nicer interior, but the 2.4 is a no go to me. I'd never buy a so called sport sedan that's probably slower than my Expedition. I still haven't seen a Regal on the road.
Or, WHEN SITTING DOWN IN MOVIE THEATER WATCH OUT FOR HYPODERMIC NEEDLES IN SEAT CUSHIONS.
Or (my personal favorite), IF ROBBER PULLS GUN ON YOU AND FORCES YOU TO TAKE MONEY OUT OF ATM, PUNCH IN YOUR PIN CODE BACKWARDS AND POLICE WILL RESCUE YOU!
If you work with someone like this, you really need snopes.
I agree. VW is crazy for dumbing down their cars. And the Cruze interior (at least the highest trim) is really nice.
We had a some idiots cut from similar cloth at my job. I finally hit "Reply All" and responded to one of those idiotic posts in a less than genteel fashion, explaining that snopes existed to help keep imbeciles from looking even MORE stupid. At least it shut the moron up for a while.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I remember that diesel...it was actually amazingly clean for a junkyward car, 86 model, 5-speed, 99K on the odo, grey on grey. I can only imagine what was wrong with it.
I know how that is. I had an '85 Tempo for a while that my dad gave to to drive when home from college in the early 90's. Though mine made it no where near 190k. I think it was about dead around 120k. Which really, isn't bad I guess. My dad bought it new and it was very reliable until about 90k miles or so. Then things started to go south.