Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

berri

I think Toyota should put better tires on all of their vehicles because road noise and shoddy OEM tires are drawbacks. Every brand has some issues and Toyota seems to me to also be weak in having short seats and tight headroom. Mechanically though, I think they generally make a good car, but maybe not as good as a decade ago. My 09 just needed a water pump with low 30's on the odometer.

Although originally European I think, aren't Dunlops cheap Goodyear's these days?

stever

Depends. Goodyear owns the brand in NA, Australia and Europe, per Wikipedia. Originally a UK company.

berri

Well, those crap Firestone Wilderness on my old Explorer were Firestone's made in the US. Of course, after that debacle, Japan's Bridgestone bought the brand on the cheap. The problem I have buying Chinese made tires is that country's reputation for shoddy quality and poor ethics.

roadburner

You must not own the German-built cars after the warranty expires. Every person I know who owns a German car tells the same story - one of expensive and frequent repairs.

Not in my experience- and I've owned 10 BMWs since 1983. I currently have four, and only one has less than 100K on them. In contrast, my 110,000 mile Mazdaspeed 3 has needed more repairs and warranty work than my last 3 late model BMWs combined.

fintail

Nah, that's not how it works Any links showing cars made in in that troublesome area are equal to first world cars?

If the Russian tires have yet to be built, hard to speculate. Russia must have some knowledge about making winter tires, and some of their cars, while shabby, are robust. A lot more of a motoring history than China, and this potential factory could be 20 miles from the Finnish border rather than halfway around the world. Seems more trustworthy

If you'd voluntarily put Chinese tires on your car...well, that says a lot in the eyes of some. Dunno if Chinese Pirellis would ever fly in the first world though, brand equity would collapse.

stever

Any links showing cars made in in that troublesome area are equal to first world cars?

Chevrolet Equinox Gets Chinese Engine (chinacartimes.com)

"A GM representative was quoted by Xinhua as saying that GM are very satisfied with the quality of the Chinese built engine."

Reliability reports here are all green.

The rest of a car won't be far behind.

fintail

AFAIK, that obsolete low feature engine was only offered for a couple years under that assembly. Why would that be? I don't know anyone who is rushing out to buy that old lump.

Ask yourself, why would a manufacturer choose that location for assembly and then sell it in your market?

And GM suits being satisfied with something doesn't mean it is the most ideal product :shades:

So would you buy a Chinese Chevy for the same price as one not made under those conditions?

Oh yeah, I have been told by more than one person that the Chinese motorcycles our treacherous government allows in are virtually throwaway after several thousand miles.

stever

Didn't we (as in the collective "we") already have this argument over Mexico? Or was it Korea, or just Canada?

Next up, Brazil. (Reuters)

robr2

Well, those crap Firestone Wilderness on my old Explorer were Firestone's made in the US. Of course, after that debacle, Japan's Bridgestone bought the brand on the cheap.

BZZZZZZZZ. Thanks for playing.

Bridgestone bought Firestone back in 1988. The Explorer debacle wasn't until 2000 or so.

andre1969

I can only think of two BMW experiences of people I know, and they were both 5-series. One of my friends has a 2002 or so 5-series that he bought used back in 2007. I think it's up to around 85-90,000 miles now. It hasn't been perfect, but hasn't been a total piece either.

The other is my tax preparer. He had a 5-series...forget the generation, but it looked like my buddy's '02. Last time I had to see him at his home office, I noticed a new Honda Crosstour in his driveway. I asked him about the BMW, and he said that it was just getting too expensive to keep running, and would need $1,000+ every time it went in the shop. But, I don't know the details, such as year, mileage, what all went wrong, and so forth. So, don't take my anecdotes as the Gospel. :shades:

gagrice

The OEM Firestone tires that came on my 1998 Suburban were very good tires. Lasted 44,000 miles. Only reason I bought new was weather checking from being parked out in the sun. Firestone store rotated and balanced for free the entire 7 years I owned the vehicle. I replaced with Michelin, because the OEM Firestone tire was no longer available.

fintail

And none of those have the potential of China. Apples to oranges.

I assume the insanely low production mentioned of that Brazilian BMW facility will be 100% destined for local consumption. I don't know how that relates to buying American or first world products. As an aside, there was a Brazilian built car sold here 25 years ago - VW Fox. To put it nicely...wasn't the best thing to ever hit the road, and was not replaced.

dieselone

I got over 70k out of the Continental Contracs that were OEM on my Expedition. They were pretty good overall for OEM tires, though when they started to wear you couldn't turn in a parking lot without a lot of squealing.

I replaced them with Michelin LTX s/2s that have been very good. I've got 40k on them and they've shown little wear. I figure by the time they wear out it will be time for a new truck or SUV.

gagrice

I don't imagine BMW dealers are any more honest than Lexus dealers. My wife was getting dinged about a grand every time she took it into the Lexus dealer for service. We found an excellent indie Lexus shop. And cut the crap by about 2 thirds. If you are going to keep a luxury car past warranty, find a good independent shop. Unless of course you work for the government and have money to waste. :shades:

stever

And none of those have the potential of China. Apples to oranges.

Apples are round, are fruit, have seeds, grow on trees. Ditto oranges.

There are red oranges and orange apples.

Buying a car based simply on country of origin just limits your choices.

andres3

I was watching the show "BAIT CAR" the other day, and the suspect wiggled out of the driver's side window when the car went on lockdown. He ran for it and a bunch of cops chased after him.

One of the cops was very careless and ran into a sidewalk curb head on while getting out of their vehicle, and damaged one of the tires and wheels. They showed him changing the tire/wheel, admitting they got a bit reckless in damaging the car, but then he said "it's okay, it'll be paid for," or something to that nature. My first thought was yes, the tax payer will be on the hook for paying, it's okay, because it's not your money.

fintail

Dogs have legs and so do people. So?

Ignoring the repercussions of patronizing some countries of origin is just irresponsible, IMO.

fintail

Cops crash more often than most would admit. Local media usually barely mentions it, if at all.

Hilarious show though.

andres3

I don't like anecdotal evidence when it comes from used car buyers.

My father and I have tended to buy cars new only, which gives a better indication of quality and reliablity since we have always had them maintained well.

For all you know, the owner of your friends' 5-series were delivered to the owner at a track, and the engine was broken in by racing it on the track.

I've seen in multiple car manufacturers manuals that it's a good idea to take it easy on the engine the first 700-1500 miles to break it in properly.

berri

I didn't realize that Robr. But when I think about it, I've had a fair number of vehicles with Bridgestone tires over the years and they were all crap just like the Firestone Wilderness, 500's and 721 tires I had. I guess they made a good fit.

stever

Ignoring the repercussions of patronizing some countries of origin is just irresponsible, IMO.

So where do you draw the line?

Canada?

Mexico?

Germany? :P

uplanderguy

I have known exactly one person with a BMW 5-series. It was probably a mid'90's model. At 80K-odd miles, it needed a completely new engine...and this with religious oil changes per the original owner, a friend of mine. This is anecdotal, but it's my entire population.

dieselone

I know two people with 5 series. One is a '92 that he still drives daily and the other is an 03 with 110k or so. The guy with the '92 does all his own work, the woman with the '03 has only mentioned that when something goes wrong it's expensive.

I also know a guy an his second 7 series. He kept his first one 15 years, so I guess it's possible to drive a BMW for a long time.

fintail

Certainly none of those have the commerce/trade, social, and environmental impacts as China. None of those have committed cyber-attacks on the US, for example.

So, would you buy a Chinese Chevy just as readily as a Michigan Chevy?

keystonecarfan

European cars aren't just being beaten by Corollas in reliability surveys.

Complexity that doesn't work - or complexity for its own sake - is worthless from the customer's point of view. Americans expect their cars to WORK with a minimum of fuss.

If that higher level of precision isn't delivering worthwhile results, it represents a wasted effort, unless the plan is to give the owner something to admire while waiting for the tow truck or sitting in the service department waiting room.

Reliability problems aren't just limited to very expensive and complicated S-Class Mercedes or BMW 7-Series. A VW Passat, for example, is inferior to a Camry or an Accord when it comes to reliabilty, and it isn't really any more "exciting" than either one of those cars.

stever

For the second time, yes.

It can even be a Chery, not a Chevy. All it has to do is meet my needs.

fintail

Depends on what the customer wants, which might be different than what YOU want. If the car is astounding when everything is 100%, more downtime is often tolerated - and it's not like the roadside is littered with broken down S and 7ers anyway. Americans might want that "work with a minimum of fuss" toaster, but these oh so unreliable and terrible Euros still continue to sell in record numbers - so someone is obviously doing something right.

"exciting" is mostly subjective, as well. Even something as mainstream as a Passat must have something going for it, or it wouldn't be selling relatively well right now.

fintail

Fantastic.

dieselone

If the car is astounding when everything is 100%, more downtime is often tolerated - and it's not like the roadside is littered with broken down S and 7ers anyway.

And for those who can't understand or appreciate that, then Toy/Honda has a car for you;)

I'm pretty sure I'd be happier with Fin's E55 than any current domestic sedan.

berri

I think there needs to be more fairness and equity in trade. In that respect Canada is the best of that list and Mexico the worst. The problem with trade data though is that most of it seems to be gross or raw, rather than weighted by percentage or per capita. Germany is no gem in my opinion. They are more open than Japan perhaps, but their gov is very tight taking care of their unions and executives. Not making a decision on Opel one way or the other, but remember that just recently the German gov tried to force GM to sell Opel to a consortium in Germany's national interest. Germany doesn't contribute a bunch to NATO, other than allowing use of facilities located there. The US underwrites a lot of their national defense through the NATO umbrella. Ally yes, key ally not really, fair trade partner just somewhat IMO.

gagrice

To put it in simple terms our 23 year old Lexus LS400 rides, handles better and is quieter than the 2010 Accord I rented in 2010. I am sure the maintenance is more on the Lexus. However no major issues. My 1978 Honda Accord blew an engine at around 60k miles. It had cooling issues from day one. Buy cheap, you get cheap.

keystonecarfan

German cars aren't the only ones that are "astounding" these days (and not all of them are astounding). Considering the price of an S-Class and a 7-Series, it had better be "astounding."

At any rate, they don't compete with a Hondas or Toyotas. The German brand that does - VW - isn't offering vehicles that are "astounding," let alone especially reliable.

Through the end of September, Mercedes has sold 191,618 vehicles. BMW has sold 186,9397 vehicles in the same time frame. In comparison, Lexus has sold 170,997 vehicles, so it's not THAT far behind.

It's not as though Mercedes and BMW are demolishing the competition, as Cadillac did during the 1950s and 1960s (when it routinely outsold its closest competitor, Lincoln, on the order of 5:1).

For the entire year, none of them will probably beat what Cadillac sold during its best years - between 275,000-350,000 vehicles per year in the late 1970s, and in a smaller market. No considers those cars to be remotely near Cadillac's all-time best offerings (that would be the 1930s through the early 1960s). A luxury marque can keep selling on reputation after its best days are clearly behind it.

As for the Passat and Jetta - they are new, bigger and relatively cheaper. Those changes are bringing in the customers. Whether this truly is a new day for VW, or another high on the VW roller coaster (from 500,000 units in 1970 to seriously considering a pull-out from the U.S in 1990, with a very bumpy ride in between) remains to be seen.

roadburner

I have known exactly one person with a BMW 5-series. It was probably a mid'90's model. At 80K-odd miles, it needed a completely new engine...and this with religious oil changes per the original owner, a friend of mine. This is anecdotal, but it's my entire population.

And as I told you before, BMW had an issue with the V8s that had Nikasil alloy blocks. The high sulfur in US fuels eroded the cylinder bores. BMW extended the warrant to 100,000 miles and replaced the blocks with Alusil blocks at no cost to the customer.

andre1969

A VW Passat, for example, is inferior to a Camry or an Accord when it comes to reliabilty, and it isn't really any more "exciting" than either one of those cars.

How does the Passat score nowadays on CR's reliability surveys? While I know it's going to be worse than a Camry or Accord, is it much worse? For instance, if a Cam/Cord is scoring "Much Better than Average" while a Passat is "Much Worse than Average", I'd be concerned. But, if a Passat is still coming in at "Average" I wouldn't be too scared of it.

stever

Try the antonym.

Why arbitrarily limit yourself down to one brand or one company or one idea?

Berri, it all comes back to the big corps. If a country opens or tamps down trade, guess who the instigator is? The only patriotic color flying is green.

fintail

They compete with Lexus and to lesser degree Infiniti and Acura, so they are competing with Toyota, Honda, and equivalent.

But in global sales volume, Lexus and the rest of more "reliable" premium brands are indeed light years behind the (usually more engaging or interesting) Germans. In most of the world, you can be in a major city in an upmarket area, and be lucky to see a single Lexus or similar. In the entire market, the big 3 German highlines are indeed DEMOLISHING the competition.

VW has healthy sales with a sketchy reliability history, and even worse service experience. They are doing something right. And again, look how the company is faring on a global level. Seems plenty of buyers are more than happy to have VW take their money - even if they receive a less than perfect product in return. It's not all about being big and cheap. Audi was once a dead man walking even more than VW. Things change.

Market conditions of the olden days are alien to today, and aren't really relevant. Caddy's golden heyday won't exist like that again.

fintail

If someone sees limiting themselves to first world products (when possible, sadly the treacherous one worlders have made it impossible sometimes) as being "arbitrary"...well, my mother said if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all :shades:

fintail

Oh, I think a CTS-V would handily out-do my ride. But that might be about it. And my car is from MB's bad old days.

stever

Your loss.

Some of the best third world stuff goes in my mouth.

gagrice

Some of the best third world stuff goes in my mouth.

I hope it is coming from the South and not Asia/Indonesia etc.

As far as VW Service. The local dealer that took care of my Passat TDI, was much better than the Toyota dealer I bought my Sequoia from. And that Toyota dealership is on the 3rd owner over the last 5 years. The VW dealer has been there since I was a kid same Drew family. That is what worries me about buying a BMW or Mercedes. The best dealers are 40 miles away. Though it is possible the local BMW dealer that has a new owner would be good.

stever

You're kidding too, right? Had a bok choy stir fry from someone "obviously not a Yooper" yesterday and got kim chee in the fridge and some paratha in the freezer. Need to learn how to make those like my flour tortillas. Gotta be simple.

Used my American made Subaru to pick those supplies up.

dieselone

Oh, I think a CTS-V would handily out-do my ride.

In out right performance, sure.

gagrice

You're kidding too, right? Had a bok choy stir fry from someone "obviously not a Yooper" yesterday and got kim chee in the fridge

I imagine the bok choy was grown in the USA. Not sure where the kim chee would be from. I rarely eat Chinese. Too much MSG used in their restaurants. We have too many fresh Thai and Vietnamese restaurants to eat Chinese.

Our newest Iraqi market has the best fresh pita type bread. They bake it in a round furnace. My wife stuffs it with American tuna. Black beans, corn and her own sauce made with yogurt.

I am very big on country of origin with what I eat. I don't want fish raised in sewage. I want US out of the WTO. The sooner the better for our welfare in the USA.

fintail

But really made there, or just made here with a local recipe and under better conditions?

A nice dinner at the Local Cool Ethnic Restaurant isn't the same as consuming third world products :shades:

fintail

It's a bright spot in the American car spectrum. Has some nice toys and nice guts.

stever

The bread is imported; no idea where the kim chee is fermented. But I'll eat the same kind of stuff in the country of origin too, even from a (busy) street vendor. Please send plane tickets asap.

Posted GM/Peugeot/Citroen news elsewhere btw, for more on the iconic American car slant.

gagrice

A friend just returned from 4 weeks in China and Tibet. He had a wonderful time and learned a lot. Worst part was the food.

Their cities make ours look like slums. Clean streets and highways. And so many new cars everywhere. Maybe they only show the tourists the nice areas.

uplanderguy

BMW extended the warrant to 100,000 miles and replaced the blocks with Alusil blocks at no cost to the customer.

My friends' engine was not warrantied.

I wouldn't tolerate this in a cheapo car, yet a Bimmer.

andre1969

What BMW was it that had a V-12? I just remembered an old friend that I've lost touch with, who has (had?) one of those. He let it sit too long and the battery died. Unfortunately, as a result, he was unable to get inside the passenger cabin to open the hood because apparently, the locking mechanism is electronic rather than mechanical. He finally figured out that you're supposed to pop the trunk, and inside there's a connection where you can hook up jumper cables and get enough juice to open the door. Then get inside to pop the hood to get to the battery.

So, in this case, I can't fault it for being unreliable. Although I dunno if he's had other issues with it or not. But it does sound overly complex!

Although, I guess once you learn the procedure for getting inside the car if the battery dies, it's not *too* bad if you know what to expect. It's just that the first time it happened, he didn't.

andre1969

but I couldn't help myself.

Tosh.0 was on the tv in the other room, and I heard him say "Plays are like American cars. There's just no place for them in the modern world!"