Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

fintail

Final assembly and components count for the most, IMO.

I'd buy a Kia built in Georgia filled with American made components before I'd buy a Buick built in China with Chinese components.

imidazol97

>Who's to say that if you buy a Toyota from a California dealer that was made in Indiana at the Subaru facility that you aren't also helping your college roommate back in Maine who happens to own a boatload of Toyota stock?

That's why it's better just to go with the original big 3 before the bustup. Then one doesn't have to worry about where the money goes for the home company.

stever

I bet the warranty claims on the same model vehicles made in two or three countries (something like the CR-V) wouldn't support that claim.

(Imidazol97 - gotcha; Detroit, Detroit, Turin).

fintail

First world vs others and/or vehicular complexity are keys in that, I think.

fezo

"According to Section 203 of the Tennessee right-to-work statutes, no business or employer can fire, discipline or exclude an employee from employment because the worker failed to pay dues or other related fees deliberately or unintentionally to a union. In Tennessee, the union must still represent and bargain on behalf of the nonunion employee even if he does not pay dues."

Pretty much the same in NJ. You have lots of "agency members" - they aren't actually members, can't vote in union elections but by law must be represented by the union in the same way that full members are.

stever

Well, they make CR-Vs in the Philippines, Thailand, Mexico, Indonesia as well as the US, Japan, and Canada. I bet they all run pretty good.

imidazol97

>gotcha; Detroit, Detroit, Turin).

But I said _original_ Big 3 before the bustup where Chrysler went Flat.
AFter all, isn't Chrysler feeling like a US, home grown company???

fintail

From components sourced where, designed where, supervised by who?

I don't know if even a devoted one worlder can claim they'd take an Indonesian car over a Japanese or NA built equivalent.

stever

isn't Chrysler feeling like a US, home grown company???

Buying a Jeep Grand Cherokee sure helps my fellow Michiganders.

Just don't buy the one made in Venezuela and heaven forbid you put Citgo gas in it.

andres3

My USA made DCM speakers were durable, lasted a long time , and of high quality. I think they still work fine as I sold them to a friend years ago after using them heavily for years myself.

Other then that, my experience with USA and Mexican made products has been lackluster at best, so anything I buy starts with a feeling of complete distrust, fear of being scammed, defrauded, and worse.

My Japanese and German built cars have been fantastic in my view.

My Italian OZ Racing wheels are superb. The center caps, however, have completely delaminated and lost their original carbon fiber look and color. I'll bet a week's wages that the caps were not made in Italy like the wheels were. Probably China. The wheels have a 2 year warranty, upon calling Tire Rack, I was informed that long warranty was just for the wheels, the center caps are excluded and only have a typical standard 1 year warranty (too late for me).

iwant12

"I'd buy a Kia built in Georgia filled with American made components before I'd buy a Buick built in China with Chinese components."

That's what I'm talking about, Fin! But, I guess, buy what you want, right? My wife is looking at a new ATS, CTS, MB, 3 series, Volvo. Not quite sure where's she's getting her cash flow from! :sick:

gagrice

All Federal employees are covered by Taft-Hartley Act of 1947. That is your basic Right to Work law. Federal Employees do not have to join the Union. They are still entitled to union protection.

gagrice

CR-Vs are all substandard noisy little SUV wannabes. Just rode in a friends new one. She loves it. Traded in a 10 year old mini van. You can have them. I would not buy one if it came with a diesel engine. I am not a Honda fan at all. My despising of all things Honda was renewed in 2010 when I rented a POC Accord for 2 weeks. Yuck

andre1969

Federal Employees do not have to join the Union. They are still entitled to union protection.

And, as a gov't contractor, I can tell you that many of the federal employees I have to tolerate fit that bill to a tee!

stever

I would not buy one

Fine, go buy a Bimmer. Then tell me that the one put together in South Carolina is more or less problematic than one with a WBA or a NC0 VIN. (Tell me with a link that is, lol).

fintail

What's an NC0 VIN? Chinese copycar?

Then tell me you'd be just as likely to buy that car built in SC with mostly first world sourced components as one built in China or similar with likewise local components.

Maybe like with food products and so many others, the irresponsible one worlders can align with untouchable corporate oligarchs and do away with location specific VINs, as everything is equal.

stever

NC0 BMWs are manufactured in South Africa. Same country where they make the C-Class.

(Both BMW and Mercedes have factories in China btw).

gagrice

That was one of my justifications for buying the Sequoia. Made in Indiana by Non Union hard working Americans. The only failure so far is the Made in India NAV entertainment unit. Took two months to get a replacement out of New Delhi.

I would actually like to get a diesel SUV with European delivery. Two of my choices are all made here and I don't think VW/Porsche offer EU delivery on their SUVs.

fintail

Oh I wasn't aware of that VIN, N should be an Asian prefix.

Those Chinese made cars are also for domestic consumption.

roadburner

Then tell me that the one put together in South Carolina is more or less problematic than one with a WBA or a NC0 VIN.

I have nothing against American made cars(I test drove one today- Achtung, Baby!)- I just wont consider the ones assembled by the UAW.

busiris

Problem is, if it is a problem, is that what BMW makes in SC (X3/X5/X6) is the only place BMW makes those models, so it's difficult to compare same/like models.

roadburner

The first cars built at the BMW Manufacturing plant in Greer SC were E36 3 Series sedans. At the time, BMW AG stated that they did not want to start building a new model at Greer until they were convinced that the US E36 3ers were as well built as their German counterparts. The original plan was to continue building 3er sedans in the US, but the hot selling E36/7 Z3 and E53 X5 resulted in BMW deciding to end US sedan production.

stever

Agreed, that's why I tried to make my point initially with the CR-V.

gagrice

I don't think Honda knows how to make a quiet riding vehicle. No matter what country it is built in.

stever

Which would also prove my point that they are all screwed together the same way, no matter the country of assembly.

Piezas son piezas, parti este parti, parça parça oldugunu.

imidazol97

>Piezas son piezas, parti este parti, parça parça oldugunu.

"Parts are parts, this particular particular, oldugunu reaper reaper."

uplanderguy

My feeling is that engineers have made the assembly process far more uniform than in the old days. Hence, I can't believe that a UAW worker versus a non-UAW worker would make a whit's difference in assembly quality these days.

stever

Something got lost in your translator.

imidazol97

I tried again: Piezas last piezas, party este is party, piece by piece.

Google. Bing. Who's a guy to trust?

keystonecarfan

My parents own stock in the company, and my father has always told me that it really doesn't matter how he votes his shares at the annual meeting, since the one of those organizations (the trust or the foundation) owns a controlling interest in the company.

keystonecarfan

andres3: My Japanese and German built cars have been fantastic in my view.

You must not own the German-built cars after the warranty expires. Every person I know who owns a German car tells the same story - one of expensive and frequent repairs. This is confirmed by various reliability surveys.

Mercedes, BMW and Audi get around this by replicating the ownership experience in Europe, where many people receive a company car as a perk (as a substitute for higher pay, which brings about much higher taxes). People here lease the car, and receive a fair amount of scheduled maintenace for free, and then trade it for a new one when the lease (and the warranty) expires.

andres3

A 2006 Audi A3 with almost 93K miles is well out of warranty in my view.

Sure, there's been some repairs here and there, but nothing like my American car experience, not even in the same ballpark.

German cars have good drivetrains, you won't get stuck or need a tow truck.

It's little things that go wrong, like a window regulator, or a cupholder mechanism. Also, their options tend to be unreliable. Avoid all the bells and whistles, and you'll have Japanese like reliability.

My only options were the sport package and DSG transmission, so far, none of the items that came with either of those two options has failed, although the rear spoiler was obviously not painted in Germany like the rest of the car because it looks 5X older than the rest of the car from fading and swirling and general deterioration and fading.

gagrice

Time for you to get the A3 TDI and get 50 MPG instead of 25 MPG on Premium.

keystonecarfan

Good for you, but, judging by actual survey results (as opposed to your anecdotal evidence), you should count youself lucky.

The problems with German cars aren't limited to faulty window regulators or cup holders. They have their share of engine and transmission problems (not to mention annoying electrical problems) - more, in fact, than several of the domestic offerings.

Ask anyone who works at an auto auction or runs an independent repair shop. They all tell me the same thing - Toyota and Honda are on top when it comes to reliability, followed by GM, Ford and the "second-tier" Japanese makes, with the Europeans and Chrysler bringing up the rear.

fintail

It depends on the car. Some are bad, some aren't. My own long out of warranty E55 has been pretty painless to deal with the past few years, and from here on is most likely only going to have issues related to age rather than wacky engineering.

There's also a quality vs reliability difference that many users don't often grasp. Stupendously complex cars assembled to high levels of precision aren't going to be as easy to drive daily as a Corolla with its greybeard tech. Always been that way. For some, life is too short to be stuck in a Civrolla or other blandbox. You gotta pay to play.

Company cars in Europe (and especially UK compared to the continent) are more common there than here in the land of the chasm, but are far from universal. I suspect a greater percentage of these complex high maintenance cars are leased in the US rather than given as company cars at home, compared to local sales volumes.

fintail

So you'd be just as likely to buy a Chevy built in China as one built in a place with a better record for quality and safety?

anythngbutgm

BMW automatic transmission problems have kept me from considering one that isn't a 3 series or a 1 series (manual).

Last I checked they were Government Motors units built in France... :sick:

There used to be a huge problem with the GM 4 speeds in the Volvo XC90 T6 that have basically cursed the model on the Volvo forums. Those were ones for the history books how bad they were.

andres3

I don't think the TDI can get 50 MPG in mixed driving whereas the 25 MPG figure is for mixed driving, I can get 30 MPG on the highway at 75-80 MPH.

The problem with the TDI is it needs a bit more horsepower, and CA needs to make sure diesel doesn't cost more than Premium.

andres3

I was complaining the other day to my motorsports mechanic about the high cost of tires, brakes, rotors and such. He said "no one ever claimed driving fast was cheap."

The cost of being able to go fast and furious does add up, but it's worth it in my book. Some tires handle furious driving better than others.

fintail

You get what you pay for. People who buy high end cars or even better, high end cars with performance ability, and then gripe about expensive tires, brakes, bad fuel economy, tight servicing requirements, etc, need to stop living a lie and get behind the wheel of the Rio they were made for. It will be cheap and will get them to their destination. Also, none of this stuff should be surprising. The running costs of these cars are known, and need to be researched before purchase.

I think atexiera was mentioning a friend of his was put off by the tire/brake costs of running a RR Sport. Well duh...should have looked at that before you bought it.

ateixeira

I gave my son a pocket knife/heirloom recently. Told him the whole story of its origin, how it was handed down, etc.

He got so scared of losing it, he didn't want to keep it (yet)! Funny.

ateixeira

Correct, he just traded the RR Sport last week for a Ford Explorer 4x4 Limited.

IIRC he paid around $55k 3 years ago, got a generous $35k in trade (q had appraised trade at $32k). That's a decent hit on depreciation, for sure.

Of course his Explorer was $40 grand so who knows how much margin there is to play with the trade value, you know how that goes.

I'm sure he'll be infinitely happier with the Ford. More room, less complex, cheaper parts and service.

Kinda funny, though, to pay $5 grand to save $2 grand on tires.

Then again, people spend a lot more to save $5 a week in fuel.

andres3

Then again, people spend a lot more to save $5 a week in fuel.

Yes, but that's a bad comparison.

People often feel cheated, gouged, and swindled by gas stations and oil/gasoline companies, and rightfully so.

Anything you can do to lessen your exposure to the gougers helps. It's like when people hire a $1,500 lawyer to fight a $300 traffic ticket. If you hate "BIG BROTHER" enough, you'll do it.

andre1969

Anything you can do to lessen your exposure to the gougers helps. It's like when people hire a $1,500 lawyer to fight a $300 traffic ticket. If you hate "BIG BROTHER" enough, you'll do it.

I can relate to that mindset to a degree. But in the traffic ticket example, there's a logical angle as well. If your insurance company finds out about that ticket, chances are you're going to be shelling out a lot more money than if you had hired the $1500 lawyer!

I still remember when I got my first traffic ticket and the insurance company found out. My insurance had been about $700 for the year (1991, 21 year old driver, liability-only). Well, for 1992, it was about to go down to about $650, but then they pulled my driving record, and suddenly it went to about $970! And this was the result of a $45 ticket for doing 44 in a 35 zone.

I got two more tickets in 1992, but for some reason, one didn't have any points assessed. I think my insurance stayed about the same. It would have gone down a bit if I hadn't gotten that second ticket.

I forget how long it took for the effect of those tickets to totally wear off, but it ended up costing a LOT more than $45! I think the second one was also $45, but the third one was issued by Park Police, and while it was about $100, there were no points.

stever

So you'd be just as likely to buy a Chevy built in China as one built in a place with a better record for quality and safety?

You phrase that like a "when did you stop beating your wife" question. Who's to say the Chinese built Chevy isn't as well made as the one made in Chile or Korea or Detroit?

My Chinese sawsall and oscillator tools from Harbor Freight work fine, and my 4 year old ThinkPad is going strong.

People were saying the same thing about Hyundai not that long ago, and before the Koreans, it was the Japanese that supposedly made junk. Before that it was VWs with the lawn mower engines. Before that it was most anything British. Right now it's possible that Tata will gain a foothold here before Chery though.

fintail

You see it that way, and dodge the question through it

Who's to say a Chinese built car is as well made as one built in a less troublesome area?

A car is a lot more complex and prone to potential disastrous issues than a power tool with what is mostly 1950s tech, or a computer assembled there, but not designed nor entirely sourced there, nor having the amount of moving parts. Not sure if I would compare China today to Korea in 1990 or Japan in 1970, either.

So would you?

cooterbfd

Good GOD Andy!!!! We were walking through the car corral on Thurs nite and the sewage smell was awful!!!! They are tearing down part if not all of the old factory on Chocolate ave though.

stever

Who's to say a Chinese built car is as well made as one built in a less troublesome area?

Got a link saying otherwise?

Didn't think so.

Sure, bring it on.

Another example. I'm riding on Nokian tires on the Subaru, WR-G2s. It's still the honeymoon period but I'm liking them a lot. From what I understand, while these were made in Finland, the next set will be made in a new state of the art factory in the Soviet Union. So when these wear out, I should avoid buying another set because the Russian labor force is suspect?

Maybe I should go with some Pirellis instead? They have a nice new factory too. In China.

gagrice

Both sets of Michelin tires, I recently bought for the Sequoia and LS400, were MADE in the USA. Not sure where the worthless DUMLOPS were made. Toyota should put better OEM tires on the top of the line SUVs.

stever

They make those in China too.

And probably lots of other places. Who knows where your last set was made. Shipping costs probably make it more cost effective to make tires "locally".