Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

fezo

The 'GM New Models' forum is the one I far and away participate the most in, so my comments still hold for there. I don't see you posting there often.

Which, ironically, is hardly ever about ne GM models.......

tlong

If Americans could think past the price of an item and see more of the real price. The price of an American out of work, the price of taxes not being paid, the price of not having health insurance to go see a doctor. We are all connected in this economy here at home. Demanding U.S. made goods and services just makes sense. I agree, to hold an American company accountable for its goods it declares as "American" should be brought to the attention of the American consumer if they are not.

Good points. So then it's better to buy a US Toyota or Honda than a Canadian or Mexican GM or Ford, too.

Yet we wouldn't have the choices to buy US Accords and Camrys and Sonatas if buyers hadn't decided not to tolerate mediocrity from Detroit. So that's a positive that somewhat counterbalances the situation.

uplanderguy

Believe it or not, there are U.S.-built GM's and Fords with high NA parts content, and there are foreign cars that are assembled in Europe and Asia that are sold here. By the looks of posts I see, only all Asian makes are built in the 'States and only all GM's and Fords are built in Canada or Mexico!

fezo

I know some people have that attitude but will tell you out of our four cars while all are Japanese makes two are American assembled with a high percentage of American parts.

gagrice

I am sure there are vehicles made here you don't care for and some made in Canada or Mexico you do like. My last new vehicle purchase was based somewhat on its being mostly made in the USA. I wish I had opted for the Mercedes that had less US content but far better mileage. So I opted for high US content and end up sending more out of the country for oil. I don't see where putting food on the table for someone in Alabama, Tennessee or Mississippi is any less important than someone in Michigan or Ohio. Especially after this election.

tlong

Believe it or not, there are U.S.-built GM's and Fords with high NA parts content, and there are foreign cars that are assembled in Europe and Asia that are sold here.

You are absolutely correct. But the point that I was making (in the spirit of "what does buying American really mean?" is that it's not so simple to look at the nameplate. Many traditional US nameplates are made outside the US and many non-US nameplates are made IN the U.S. So if one is concerned about jobs and the local economy, they should dig a bit deeper to see where the actual vehicles under consideration actually are put together, as well as the NA parts content (but can we even know the US parts content, since NA is not the same as US?).

bpizzuti

If Americans could think past the price of an item and see more of the real price.

I don't care about the price. I do care that they don't make the right product for me. And until they do, they don't get my money, period.

ateixeira

FWIW Miata's trunk was never that bad.

Ask any Solistice/Sky owner. Even that box of tissues would not squeeze in top down.

uplanderguy

I can honestly say you are the first person I've ever heard say flatly, "I don't care about the price".

Maybe it's my humble origins, and/or my occupation, but even though I am definitely wealthier than my parents, price matters to me.

bpizzuti

Well, I don't particularly care about the price, it's not the first priority. If one brand, which for the sake of argument we'll call Mazda, has a car with all the features I want, and another brand, which we'll call Chevrolet just to push people's buttons, has a car for a couple of grand less but missing some of the features I want (like, oh, say, a hatch), then I'm gonna buy the Mazda. And if some other brand comes along (let's call it Hyundai just for giggles) comes along, and has all the same features as Mazda for a grand or two less, I'm NOT going to automatically buy the Hyundai. I'm going to buy whichever one is more comfortable and drives better. And that'll probably be the Mazda.

This is completely theoretical of course. :shades:

ateixeira

I always find these interesting:

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20121113/CUTAWAY/311139996/su- ppliers-to-the-2013-honda-accord&cciid=email-autonews-productionline

Suppliers from all over the globe, and the funny thing is they use the same suppliers as many competitors do, both foreign and domestic nameplates.

stever

Before the EU completely shakes out, GM and Ford may wind up picking up some more brands "on the cheap". Or maybe they'll just walk away entirely.

"Europe is not a sovereign nation like the U.S., which bailed out its ailing auto companies at huge taxpayer expense. The loss-making continues in Europe. Everybody knows this can't go on, but harsh decisions will have to wait because politicians, both national and European, are crippled by fear of short-term repercussions.

The problem in Europe is too many volume car companies, with too many brands, too many products, too much production, too much capacity, etc. There's no point in one manufacturer taking over another, unless they can and do perform radical rationalization," Wormald said."

Theories abound to save Europe's tottering car makers; action awaits (Detroit News)

gagrice

VW is bound to be the beneficiary of that mess. They have the RIGHT cars for the right time. From 70 MPG diesels, to electrics and hybrids. From entry level Seat Mii to Porsche and Audi luxury. All offering fuel saving diesels. Many available in the United Socialist Republic of California. :shades:

lemko

Are Russian automakers on the block? Maybe I can pick up ZIL for a song, move them to Detroit, and start manufacturing those cool pseudo-Packards on East Grand Boulevard again?

stever

VW also has the ability to make auto loans at cheaper rates than the others. And that's irritating the non-German member states of the EU.

Good idea, Lemko, and we can sell them to the Cubans in Havana.

ateixeira

They're dumping cars at a loss. I read 20% of some German brands are now sold as program cars, at a substantial discount. Dealers can use these and sell them as nearly new for a lot less than retail cost.

Question is, is that sustainable? Sell cars at a loss with free financing?

Of course they only need to do it until competitors go bankrupt. Deepest pockets win.

stever

Sell cars at a loss with free financing?

You're saying the Mitsubishi business model of a few years ago isn't such a hot idea? :shades:

Sure, they'll lose money on every sale, but they'll make up for it on volume.

/badda boom

ateixeira

Bingo.

0/0/0 made the Eclipse a best seller, but look at Mitsu sales today.

You draw in buyers with bad credit, the least likely repeat buyer.

bpizzuti

You're saying the Mitsubishi business model of a few years ago isn't such a hot idea?

Sure, they'll lose money on every sale, but they'll make up for it on volume.

I thought that was the GM business model of, well, yesterday?

Cue uplanderguy. :shades:

ateixeira

They had a few handicaps, UAW for starters, legacy costs as well.

Going through bankruptcy was key. They were able to shed excess capacity and at least some of those costs.

It's funny, Japan had the cost advantage for a while. Now Korea has the advantage over Japan. Low overhead, no pensions.

Pretty soon China will exploit its advantage over Korea.

uplanderguy

Are Russian automakers on the block? Maybe I can pick up ZIL for a song, move them to Detroit, and start manufacturing those cool pseudo-Packards on East Grand Boulevard again?

I've walked out front of 1580 E. Grand Blvd. a couple times...in '87 and about five years later. Actually went inside 'the gate' the first time. I don't imagine the neighborhood has improved with age.

lemko

The only thing the old Packard complex is good for nowadays is a set for a zombie movie. It was awful in 1987, worse in 1992, and most definitely hasn't improved in the last 20 years. There was talk of demolishing the site, but the expense would be ferocious.

busiris

When my wife and I were in Germany in October, we spent time with some friends that recently bought a MB program C250 touring (at least, I think it was a C250, without looking at the pictures he sent me right after he got it).

A really nice car that could easily pass for being brand new. Efficient Diesel engine, and lots of options, but slightly too small for long rides carrying 4 adults along with traveling baggage. Outstanding highway performance, though...

Saved thousands of Euros over buying "new", but it certainly looked new to me...

ateixeira

Great deal for your friend...

gagrice

You used to be able to do that and ship them to the states. I don't think it is possible anymore.

ceejaysquared

It seems to me that the only "loss" to America of buying foreign is the executive profit -- and given the ridiculous compensation paid to auto executives (and their equally ridiculous low tax rates), I feel no pull to "buy American" in cars, anyway.

As long as the workers getting paid are US workers, I feel I've done my part. I don't care about the nationality of the fat cats who get rich.

mcdawgg

I own Toyota stock, so I share in their profits!!!

Some engineering may be done in the "home" country by some of the "foreign" companies, but not all. I know of Ann Arbor and California engineering offices for Toyota.

Parts are BOTH made here and assembled here, more and more. Why? One of the big reasons is freight savings.

Tax credits gets brought up by the" 'murican only" crowd. I can say for certain that ANY company, foreign-based or domestic, gets tax credits for locating a plant in a State, City, etc.

They also point to using temp labor - true, but not unlike or more than any company I have worked for, and I have been in manufacturing management for nearly 2 decades (manufacturing NOT related to the auto industry).

Disclaimer: I don't hate GM, Ford, etc. and would buy one if they had something I liked that was worth it to me. I do try to buy cars with at least 70% NA parts (and definitely NOT Mexico), and assembled here.

ateixeira

Certain models are designed here and pretty much made for the USA - Sienna, Avalon, etc. The bigger cars. Even the US-spec Camry is different than what is sold elsewhere.

Same for the Accord. It's not unusual.

uplanderguy

I just always remember the head of Toyota North America at the hearings about the unintended acceleration claims and related recalls. He looked like a deer in the headlights and deferred most everything to Mr. Toyoda. That told me where the real decisions were made. Not that that's bad, but reiterated to me that it's not nearly as 'American' a company as is claimed.

gagrice

Several German models like the ML from Mercedes are made here for the rest of the World. The Jeep GC uses the ML chassis from what I have read. MB, BMW & Jeep all build vehicles here that are exported. That is good for American workers.

Many states, Counties and Cities offer incentives from free land, reduced taxes, cheap utilities etc, to get companies to relocate. That has been going on since at least the 1960s. There was a mass migration out of the Midwest to the South in the 1960s. Cheap land, lower taxes were incentive enough. I know of several Telco manufacturers that moved South. Most offered to take the employees that wanted to relocate. It was not for cheap labor as much as repressive taxes in Illinois and Ohio.

tlong

It seems to me that the only "loss" to America of buying foreign is the executive profit -- and given the ridiculous compensation paid to auto executives (and their equally ridiculous low tax rates), I feel no pull to "buy American" in cars, anyway.

As long as the workers getting paid are US workers, I feel I've done my part. I don't care about the nationality of the fat cats who get rich.

Hi ceejay, welcome to the forum.

Not only what you say, but given the poor performance and decision making of many of those same executives, why support them? Why encourage mediocrity?

As an example, if you bought GM pre-BK, you were supporting people like Wagoner and Lutz, the same people who made some very poor decisions. I wonder how many people felt Wagoner was worth $10M/year for his performance?

cooterbfd

tlong,

I'll give you Wagoner, or guys like Roger Smith too, but what poor decisions did Lutz make???

berri

While Lutz is a car guy no doubt, I always kind of felt he was also an excellent marketeer and self promoter.

tlong

I'll give you Wagoner, or guys like Roger Smith too, but what poor decisions did Lutz make???

He thought hybrids were a stupid idea, then after the Prius was a runaway success suddenly GM went all hybrid-ape and gave us 2.5 losers: the mild hybrids that barely increased gas mileage; the two-mode hybrids that cost $10K extra on huge SUVs, and the Volt. At least the Volt is a technical success even though it makes no financial sense to the buyer or to GM.

anythngbutgm

FIAT (Chrysler) Adding 1250 Jobs, Investing $240 Million at Detroit-Area Plants

ateixeira

Lutz did his best work while at Dodge, bringing concepts to reality without watering them down like others were doing.

cooterbfd

I think he did the same thing at GM too. There would be no Enclave, and he pushed the concept Solstice into reality. One has to wonder if not for him pushing for something as "impractical" as the Solstice if they would have green lighted the Camaro.

busiris

The main issue I always had with the Sky/Solstice was the wrinkled "wings" at the rear of the soft top when it was up.

To me, on a modern automobile, a wrinkled convertible top is just unacceptable.

Other than that, I thought the design was a good one, and you can see a fair amount of them, mostly Sky's, here in upstate SC.

ateixeira

It was an attractively styled car, but I'd stop short of calling it a good design.

When you have to exit the car to put the top down...that's poor design, plain and simple.

On top of that the top took up the whole trunk.

Keep in mind the Miata had been around since 1990 and was the primary competitor, so they had plenty of time to learn how to design a simple folding top, that goes down without exiting the car in about 3 seconds and takes up zero trunk space.

Man, what were they thinking? :sick:

It was beautiful, yes - I saw the concept in person at NAIAS in 2005, IIRC.

uplanderguy

To me, they were far better-looking and less 'me, too!' than a Miata, and they seemed like good value for the buck. A Solstice was the last new Pontiac the dealer in my little sleepy hometown had.

ateixeira

They were gorgeous, no doubt.

The execution was lacking. The transmission came from the Colorado, a pickup, and not even a good pickup.

It ended up nearly 400 lbs heavier than the Miata, because the bean counters came in and told them they had to re-use existing parts off the shelf.

The turbo engine was powerful but GM hasn't done a good job marketing it. Every one knows what EcoBoost is, Ford has a hit on their hands. GM did DI turbos before Ford and no one knows it. Cobalt SS was a track over-achiever but they just didn't market that engine properly.

uplanderguy

The execution was lacking. The transmission came from the Colorado, a pickup, and not even a good pickup.

I hate the Colorado's styling, but good ol' CR puts it at average reliability.

ateixeira

I wonder how American those really are. Wiki says Isuzu partnered on the design:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Colorado

If the new one really does come in a diesel, all is forgiven.

roadburner

GM did DI turbos before Ford and no one knows it. Cobalt SS was a track over-achiever but they just didn't market that engine properly.

If GM had stuffed the DI turbo four into the Astra I may well have bought it instead of my MS3. The Cobalt SS wasn't under consideration.

ateixeira

Here are Lightning Lap results:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/lightning-lap-2012-feature-sortable-times-c- omplete-lightning-lap-times-2006-to-2012-page-8

You can see it punches way, WAY above its price class.

I've never driven one but FWD with that much power kinda sounds scary. May feel like the front axle is trying to rip away from the rest of the car. I'd prefer AWD with that much power.

andre1969

I can handle the styling of the Colorado okay, but as a truck, it just seemed kinda underwhelming in general. IIRC, when it first came out, it had both a lower payload and a lower towing capacity than the S10 with the 4.3 V-6, so it seemed like a step backward in some respects.

However, maybe it was improved upon in later years?

It is a bit of a shame that the domestics are abandoning the small/midsized pickup market. One of my cousins has a 2000 or so Ford Ranger that has about 300,000 miles on it, and it still looks good. I think its transmission is on borrowed time, but with all those miles, it doesn't owe him anything.

But, I guess that market is just shrinking in popularity, anyway.

Oh, as for how "American" the Colorado is? Well, I remember a couple years ago, when I had my '85 Silverado in for a transmission service, the guy who ran the shop and I started chatting, and the subject of a Colorado came up. There was some switch box under the seat, a $175 part, that failed on one he had in the shop. I think it might have controlled the 4WD? Anyway, he showed me the little box. Not much to it for $175. And, it was made in China. But, we've gotten Chinese transmissions and Chinese 3.4's, so I guess a Chinese switch isn't too big of a deal.

gagrice

The best domestic brand midsized truck is the Ford Ranger T6. And it is not even available here. Nissan and Toyota are far and away better trucks than anything the Domestics sell in the USA. I think they are afraid to take market share from their cash cow full sized PU trucks. The Frontier sold more so far this year than the Canyon & Colorado combined. And Tacoma sold twice what Nissan Frontier sold. I think Ford could do well in that market. Though it would probably cut deep into F150 territory..

There is not a chance I would buy a Solstice/Sky over the Miata. Not even close and the sales back that up. GM builds the Corvette and it is great in its class. I cannot think of a small sports car that GM has ever built that was tops in class. Several times since the Miata came out I have been tempted. Just a cool little sports car with a great price. They are selling below invoice here now. Better grab one.

dieselone

I can handle the styling of the Colorado okay, but as a truck, it just seemed kinda underwhelming in general. IIRC, when it first came out, it had both a lower payload and a lower towing capacity than the S10 with the 4.3 V-6, so it seemed like a step backward in some respects.

Yeah, the I5 is a disappointment, it's significantly behind the Tacoma and Frontier in terms of performance and towing ability. Even after GM made the 5.3 an option, the Colorado isn't rated to tow what a v6 Tacoma is rated for. With the 5.3 the gas mileage is worse than a Silverado. That's a real head scratcher.

dieselone

There is not a chance I would buy a Solstice/Sky over the Miata.

No doubt about that.

ateixeira

This was a cool concept, and RWD to boot:

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/01/09/chevrolet-code-130r-concept-detroit-2012/

I wonder what platform they would use, though? Use anything from the parts bin and it will end up way too heavy.