Back to the original question...did GM move a single other 'clone' vehicle from one division to another, upon the discontinuation of the entire make or even just the one model?
Why would they move a vehicle if it was already a clone?
That's because they used an old design, the Saturn Outlook. Cheaper to use parts right off the shelf rather than designing something new, plus Saturn's gone, so may as well move that discontinued model to a different division.
When Geo went away, the Geo Prizm became the Chevy Prizm.
Same car, they just moved divisions.
FYI, (somebody correct me if I'm wrong) Geo wasn't a division, it was another brand, which is not really the same thing. GM seemed (seems?) to have this itch to have lots of divisions and even more brands. Instead of focusing on making one division's products just excellent, they feel that multiplying brands/divisions like guppies would somehow make things better. So of course 10+ divisions/brands in the old days. Fewer now, but I'm not so sure that the *make a ton of brands* DNA has really been eradicated from the company.
Come on guys, you have to try harder than that. There was never a single Geo that wasn't sold new at a Chevy dealer. Absolutely not the case for Saturn versus GMC.
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Actually, no we don't. We named a couple of Geos (Tracker and Prism), a couple of Saturns (Vue and Outlook) and a Pontiac (G8) that made the leap between divisions/brands when their divisions/brands shut down.
And you seem to be inventing criteria on the fly in an attempt to disqualify them. Which I'm sure makes you feel better but does not help your argument at all. You'd be better off simply admitting to being wrong and moving on.
Nah, the Metro actually made it through 2001. Like the Tracker and the Prizm, it returned to the Chevy flock as well.
However, I think for 2000 retail sales of the Metro ceased, so it became fleet only. And for 2001, I believe only the 4-door sedan was still available.
Also, in the distant past, I can think of a few examples of a model being taken from one division and given to another...at least when it comes to market placement.
For example, after Edsel went away for 1960, the 1961 Mercury moved down, in both size and price, to the Edsel's old price point. In fact, the Mercury Comet was originally supposed to have been an Edsel.
Similarly, as DeSoto was whittled down from its broad 1957-59 lineup, what little was left was essentially replaced by the 1961 Chrysler Newport and the 1962 Dodge 880.
However, none of these were taking a special, unique model from one division and giving it to another. Edsel was never all that unique, as the '58 models were either guzzied up Fords or cheapened Mercurys, while the '59-60 models were, like the '61 Mercury, a guzzied up Ford. And with Mopar, back in that timeframe all the full-sized cars, with the exception of the Imperial, were the same basic thing, just with longer front-end clips or longer rear-ends to denote status.
No. I want to know what GM product was discontinued by its division--a division with its stand-alone dealers--and reintroduced to another division in its stand-alone dealers.
You won't be able to come up with one.
I'm not talking fleet product...I'm talking available to you and me.
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The Geos always were 'the Chevy flock'. There were never Geo-Pontiac dealers, Geo-Buick, Geo-Cadillac, Geo-Saturn, Geo-Olds...every single Geo ever sold new was sold at a Chevy dealer.
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And I told you, the Pontiac G8 mutated into the Chevy Camaro. Since you want to disqualify the three Geo nameplates that became Chevys when they shut down the rest of the brand, plus the Chevy Captiva (Saturn Vue) and the Caprice PPV (Pontiac G8).
Tell you what, other than the 6 vehicles that you don't want to count because they make you look bad, you're absolutely right. There, feel better?
There have been Acadias for five or more years, correct?
The original discussion was how Chevrolet or Buick or Cadillac should start selling the Solstice or Sky and would if those cars "sold well". All I'm saying is, there is not a single, solitary example of GM, or Ford for that matter, doing anything like that. Calling a Camaro a G8 to promote your argument is...I can't even think of a word, but it's beyond ludicrous.
P.S. I know that wasn't your argument, specifically...but you understand the gist.
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Quiet, we're contemplating buying Caprices and Captivas. You see, GM started selling them as Chevys when Pontiac and Saturn shut down, because some people still wanted them. :shades:
If anything it would have made *more* sense to sell the Solistice/Sky under another brand or division or whatever, because there would be no overlap. Bean Counters stepped in and that was that.
I never called the Camaro a G8, personally, but that Chevy cop car is most definitely a G8.
It's just silly to keep changing the criteria to exclude fleet, then exclude sub-brands, etc. Why do those count? Because we know better. You know better. We are automotive enthusiasts, and we know about things the public does not. I refuse to dumb down this discussion just because the recycled G8 happens to be a fleet car now. It's being re-used, period. I know it and you know it.
You just don't want to admit it because you're mad at some guy who compared a coupe to a sedan (which are not the same at all, BTW).
I think you get "baited" in to these arguments by polarized opponents and then lost your objectivity completely.
You've got to know that the Caprice is only for sale to police departments...not even rental car fleets.
Please tell me how that is the same as the Solstice being available for sale to the public at a Chevy, Pontiac, or Buick dealer. To me, it's simply a matter of deductive reasoning.
No one on this forum can buy a new one.
Wasn't the discussion originally how if Solstice and Sky were good sellers (earlier posts proved they did sell well), GM would have made them available for sale at other GM dealerships?
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The point is that other models were transferred to other brands at some level (even though you want to disqualify them because they're fleet). GM is capable of doing that if it so chooses. If it thought it would make money it would have kept the Kappa platform around too. They didn't. So even if they were maybe selling at some number someone could define as "well," apparently they weren't considered desirable enough to keep producing. Probably weren't making any money off of them.
I guess for me, a lot of it is that in my thirty-plus years of post-college employment, I've been in a field where I have to write precisely or potentially bad things can happen. So I tend to dislike writing that is opinion stated as fact, or facts thrown out in a 'loosy goosy' way. I probably should stay off this GM forum then.
You can stop applauding now!
You all know I won't, though.
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Does anyone here really think an average buyer of a Tracker thought to himself "I'd never buy a GEO, but since its now a Chevy, I'm in the market"?
Whether its a totally separate division, or a separate entity in name only, the average buyer couldn't care less. It's like laundry detergent, dozens of "brands" but only a couple of major players in the market.
AFAIK, there was nothing that prohibited GM from rebadging the Sky/Solstice as a Chevrolet Belchfire 6000SUX. If they thought the car would have been profitable, it's beyond reason why they would have chosen otherwise. At the end of the day, it's all about numbers, profits and losses.
The fact that the body style went away tells me that the model(s) generated insufficient profits to keep it around, even though the basic car style is in fair demand, as Mazda seems to have done well with it.
Why would any company, especially one in financial difficulty, walk away from selling a successful, profitable product?
There may well be incompetence in GM management, but their accountants can work calculators, too, like everyone else....
GM's product line was vastly larger than Mazda's. Space utilized for a two-seat specialty car was probably better served, moneywise, by building something else more profitable. But the sales units weren't dismal at all, as some here thought.
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No. I want to know what GM product was discontinued by its division--a division with its stand-alone dealers--and reintroduced to another division in its stand-alone dealers.
You won't be able to come up with one.
I'm sure if you continue to modify the criteria you will certainly be correct, as your criteria are designed to limit the possible answers.
The Geos always were 'the Chevy flock'. There were never Geo-Pontiac dealers, Geo-Buick, Geo-Cadillac, Geo-Saturn, Geo-Olds...every single Geo ever sold new was sold at a Chevy dealer.
So what the heck WAS Geo, and why did GM see the need to create this odd "brand" to be sold by Chevy?
Wasn't the discussion originally how if Solstice and Sky were good sellers (earlier posts proved they did sell well), GM would have made them available for sale at other GM dealerships?
No, the original point was that they were FAILURES - if they were highly profitable vehicles, why not move them to another division? It's not like it hasn't been done before, as many posters have shown.
I don't care how many they sold - if the company felt they would improve the bottom line, they would have been retained.
The second generation MX-5 (NB) was launched in 1998 and the current (NC) model has been in production since 2005. It continues to be the best-selling two-seat convertible sports car in history[1] and by February 2011 over 900,000 MX-5s had been built and sold around the world.[2]
And the same wiki article shows actual sales numbers at bottom of 735,813. In any case, 900K is still less than 1 million so I win!! :P
So what the heck WAS Geo, and why did GM see the need to create this odd "brand" to be sold by Chevy?
Geo was created to sell the Prizm aka Corolla that was made at the NUMMI facility in CA. Marketing research showed that no one looking to shop for a high quality Toyota fighter would by a Chevy, hence the new brand.
Even then, I thought the "Geo" strategy was stupid. As I've said before, there was never a stand-alone Geo dealership. Every single new Geo ever sold was sold at a Chevrolet dealership.
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More customers does not a success make. Not when Mazda is making a PROFIT off of their Miata numbers and GM is NOT making a profit off of the Kappa. COuld be a thousand reasons why Kappa wasn't profitable: maybe it was priced too low, maybe the production costs were higher than expected, maybe they just made too many and saturated the market. But if it were profitable they would have continued to build and sell them don't you think?
Comments
Take off your blinders, we've named at least three.
When Saturn went away, GMC starting selling Saturn parts, their own PR folks even admitted that (rare).
Why would they move a vehicle if it was already a clone?
http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2011-gmc-acadia-denali-first-drive/
Here's the new 2013 GMC Acadia, hmm that glass wrap-around D-pillar seems awfully familiar:
http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2013-gmc-acadia/
That's because they used an old design, the Saturn Outlook. Cheaper to use parts right off the shelf rather than designing something new, plus Saturn's gone, so may as well move that discontinued model to a different division.
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/06/22/in-the-autoblog-garage-saturn-outlook-first-t- ake/
Voila.
Same car, they just moved divisions.
Chevy Sprint Metro (I owned one) became the Geo Metro, but when Geo folded I think that went away.
Prizm did move divisions.
Spectrum went away. Isuzu clone co-existed with it.
Storm went away. Isuzu clone co-existed with it.
Bingo - 1997 Geo Tracker became the 1998 Chevy Tracker.
So there's another definite "moved divisions" transfer.
Same car, they just moved divisions.
FYI, (somebody correct me if I'm wrong) Geo wasn't a division, it was another brand, which is not really the same thing. GM seemed (seems?) to have this itch to have lots of divisions and even more brands. Instead of focusing on making one division's products just excellent, they feel that multiplying brands/divisions like guppies would somehow make things better. So of course 10+ divisions/brands in the old days. Fewer now, but I'm not so sure that the *make a ton of brands* DNA has really been eradicated from the company.
Be honest, did you ever say Chevy Storm? No.
I've counted 5. You're being completely close-minded.
:surprise: :P
Chik-Fil-A strips!!!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Actually, no we don't. We named a couple of Geos (Tracker and Prism), a couple of Saturns (Vue and Outlook) and a Pontiac (G8) that made the leap between divisions/brands when their divisions/brands shut down.
And you seem to be inventing criteria on the fly in an attempt to disqualify them. Which I'm sure makes you feel better but does not help your argument at all. You'd be better off simply admitting to being wrong and moving on.
However, I think for 2000 retail sales of the Metro ceased, so it became fleet only. And for 2001, I believe only the 4-door sedan was still available.
Also, in the distant past, I can think of a few examples of a model being taken from one division and given to another...at least when it comes to market placement.
For example, after Edsel went away for 1960, the 1961 Mercury moved down, in both size and price, to the Edsel's old price point. In fact, the Mercury Comet was originally supposed to have been an Edsel.
Similarly, as DeSoto was whittled down from its broad 1957-59 lineup, what little was left was essentially replaced by the 1961 Chrysler Newport and the 1962 Dodge 880.
However, none of these were taking a special, unique model from one division and giving it to another. Edsel was never all that unique, as the '58 models were either guzzied up Fords or cheapened Mercurys, while the '59-60 models were, like the '61 Mercury, a guzzied up Ford. And with Mopar, back in that timeframe all the full-sized cars, with the exception of the Imperial, were the same basic thing, just with longer front-end clips or longer rear-ends to denote status.
You won't be able to come up with one.
I'm not talking fleet product...I'm talking available to you and me.
Tell you what, other than the 6 vehicles that you don't want to count because they make you look bad, you're absolutely right. There, feel better?
You gotta be s****** me. This may be the lamest argument I have ever read on an Edmunds forum.
The Camaro is not a G8.
Sharing underpinnings dates back to prehistory.
Maybe you can show me where they're on the Chevy website.
Yep.
http://motors.shop.ebay.com/sch/Cars-Trucks-/6001/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=Chevy+Ca- ptiva
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2011-Caprice-Police-Interceptor-Excellent-Conditi- on-One-Owner-Low-miles-/221156294198?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item337df13e36
Saturn Outlook is reintroduced as the 2013 Acadia, go check your GMC dealer.
Do you really think they designed new parts molds?
Sorry, I mean Chevy.
Electric PS is the real turn off. Worse than my Toyota, if that's possible.
I like the Equinox more, especially the roominess.
The original discussion was how Chevrolet or Buick or Cadillac should start selling the Solstice or Sky and would if those cars "sold well". All I'm saying is, there is not a single, solitary example of GM, or Ford for that matter, doing anything like that. Calling a Camaro a G8 to promote your argument is...I can't even think of a word, but it's beyond ludicrous.
P.S. I know that wasn't your argument, specifically...but you understand the gist.
I never called the Camaro a G8, personally, but that Chevy cop car is most definitely a G8.
It's just silly to keep changing the criteria to exclude fleet, then exclude sub-brands, etc. Why do those count? Because we know better. You know better. We are automotive enthusiasts, and we know about things the public does not. I refuse to dumb down this discussion just because the recycled G8 happens to be a fleet car now. It's being re-used, period. I know it and you know it.
You just don't want to admit it because you're mad at some guy who compared a coupe to a sedan (which are not the same at all, BTW).
I think you get "baited" in to these arguments by polarized opponents and then lost your objectivity completely.
I know it's hard but try to take the high road.
Please tell me how that is the same as the Solstice being available for sale to the public at a Chevy, Pontiac, or Buick dealer. To me, it's simply a matter of deductive reasoning.
No one on this forum can buy a new one.
Wasn't the discussion originally how if Solstice and Sky were good sellers (earlier posts proved they did sell well), GM would have made them available for sale at other GM dealerships?
You can stop applauding now!
You all know I won't, though.
Does anyone here really think an average buyer of a Tracker thought to himself "I'd never buy a GEO, but since its now a Chevy, I'm in the market"?
Whether its a totally separate division, or a separate entity in name only, the average buyer couldn't care less. It's like laundry detergent, dozens of "brands" but only a couple of major players in the market.
AFAIK, there was nothing that prohibited GM from rebadging the Sky/Solstice as a Chevrolet Belchfire 6000SUX. If they thought the car would have been profitable, it's beyond reason why they would have chosen otherwise. At the end of the day, it's all about numbers, profits and losses.
The fact that the body style went away tells me that the model(s) generated insufficient profits to keep it around, even though the basic car style is in fair demand, as Mazda seems to have done well with it.
Why would any company, especially one in financial difficulty, walk away from selling a successful, profitable product?
There may well be incompetence in GM management, but their accountants can work calculators, too, like everyone else....
They can call it the Lutzmobile for all I care. :shades:
(Shoot, got beat to it. Okay, the Belchfire works).
Anyone know what the plant used for building the Sky, etc. is being used for now?
Didn't GM close it after the Sky went away?
Kinds shoots a hole in the "better utilization" idea, wouldn't you say?
I don't know the latest. Anybody?
You won't be able to come up with one.
I'm sure if you continue to modify the criteria you will certainly be correct, as your criteria are designed to limit the possible answers.
So what the heck WAS Geo, and why did GM see the need to create this odd "brand" to be sold by Chevy?
Regardless, they were still failures.
Companies don't kill off products that are highly successful and making money.
No, the original point was that they were FAILURES - if they were highly profitable vehicles, why not move them to another division? It's not like it hasn't been done before, as many posters have shown.
I don't care how many they sold - if the company felt they would improve the bottom line, they would have been retained.
The second generation MX-5 (NB) was launched in 1998 and the current (NC) model has been in production since 2005. It continues to be the best-selling two-seat convertible sports car in history[1] and by February 2011 over 900,000 MX-5s had been built and sold around the world.[2]
And the same wiki article shows actual sales numbers at bottom of 735,813. In any case, 900K is still less than 1 million so I win!! :P
They're only different from an ego standpoint.
Since the plant was being used solely for Solstice/Sky/Opel GT production, the conclusion seems pretty obvious to me.
Production wasn't profitable, and in the end, that's all that matters.
Only on this forum.
Geo was created to sell the Prizm aka Corolla that was made at the NUMMI facility in CA. Marketing research showed that no one looking to shop for a high quality Toyota fighter would by a Chevy, hence the new brand.