Surely you can see that the conversation shifted to small pickup trucks and how the Colorado compares.
And we discussed this previously, but Toyota engineered the frames and approved them for use. I wouldn't doubt that GM's bad steering columns weren't made in the U.S., but I don't blame the supplier, even though they paid GM a settlement. I blame GM--they're the ones whose name is on the product.
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I don't know enough about the mechanics to say one way or the other, other than to say if the convertible top was indicative of how the rest of he car was engineered, well ..... You get the idea...
Sorry, your response wasn't meant for me, missed that.
Dana paid up because the frames did *not* meet Toyota's specifications.
There's the headline, then the story, then the real story.
Headline: Tacos rust!
Story: Dana supplied sub-standard frames (made in the USA) and got caught and had to settle.
Real Story: it was so bad that Dana sold off the entire division. Bunch of jobs shipped to Mexico because some bean counter at Dana probably told them they could save 3 cents per frame by skimping on the galvanization process. Thousands of hard working Dana employees lose their jobs. Bean counter probably promoted because savings totaled more than $25 million. :sick:
I don't care about the frame issue. I'd still buy a frontier or Tacoma over a Colorado. I've driven my buddies '07 Tacoma and it's a nice small truck. I'd buy a domestic full-size truck regardless, but I''ll take the Tacoma and risk a bad frame vs a Colorado with a lousy 5 cylinder and 4 speed trans.
You can see it punches way, WAY above its price class.
I've never driven one but FWD with that much power kinda sounds scary. May feel like the front axle is trying to rip away from the rest of the car. I'd prefer AWD with that much power.
I remember when the SS turbo was introduced. R&T really liked it(ranking it first in their pocket rocket comparo) but C&D weren't as impressed(ranking it third behind the GTI and MS3). As for horsepower my MS3 with a Mazdaspeed CAI puts out @287 bhp at the crank, so torque steer is a fact of life- but it's really only a major issue from a dead stop. On the track it's pretty manageable. That said, the MS3 is definitely going to be my one and only FWD car. It's back to RWD sleds from either Munich or Zuffenhausen...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
The best domestic brand midsized truck is the Ford Ranger T6...I think they are afraid to take market share from their cash cow full sized PU trucks.
That's part of it. The T6 is a 7/8 F-150.
The other part is that Ford research showed that many Ranger buyers bought the model because it was cheap, not because it was a vehicle they really lusted for.
I just bought a 2001 DeVille for my son who totaled his Sonoma. Anyone with similar car experience? Dark red with a tannish grey interior and chrome wheels.
Well, I DID buy a 2009 Tacoma 2-wheel drive Access Cab 4-cylinder new, and it hasn't demonstrated any rust whatsoever, frame or anywhere else.
Of course, it's a SC vehicle and has seen little to no road slots, either. Only issue has been a bad radio, replaced within the 1st year of ownership.
This truck replaced a 2002 S-10 v6 extended cab. It doesn't have the "oomph!" (Probably less towing capacity, too) as much as the v6-S10 did, but it also doesn't have the squeaks and rattles that were standard equipment on the S-10, and the cabin area is a full generation larger than the S-10.
It's what I call my "gentleman's truck", so I can't attest to how it would hold up as a daily or working-man's truck, but for one who uses a truck for general transportation and occasional homeowner tasks, it's been a great, reliable vehicle up to this point.
I would buy it again, given the choice. Price wise, it was a much better deal than the Nissan Frontier... At least, around here.
The main downside was that,at this level of truck, the main option you have is color, as most of the Tacomas at this "level" are identically equipped.
Ho, boy!!!!! When lemko sees this, he's gonna be drooling!
Yeah, I thought of Lemko when I saw that post, too. He had a '94 DeVille, but it had the older 4.9 V-8 and not the Northstar. He also had a c2002 Seville that had the Northstar. I think it was fairly reliable for him, but he was able to get a good deal on a 2007 DTS, so he traded.
We have some family friends that have a DTS of that 2000-2005 generation. They used to live in our neighborhood, but moved down to Southern Maryland back in 2000. This is gonna make us sound like a bunch of hicks I know, but she once said that she'd feel that she was "well off" when she had a paved driveway, and a red Cadillac! Well, now she has 'em both! About the best I can counter with is #57 gravel and a 34-year old 5th Ave. :P
I just noticed another bit of Edmunds anti GM bias. In the "cons" listed for the Saturn Sky it mentions a "reputation for poor reliability". Yet a click on the Reliability icon reveals solid green checks for every year. Why the contradiction?
I didn't notice any comment about reliability in the Mazda RX-8 review. On the reliability page the engine gets big red X's for the first 3 or 4 years of production and according to Edmunds consumer reviews, those rotary engines are pretty bad. There are quite a few unhappy owners.
Why does the Sky have a reputation for bad reliability but the RX-8 does not?
When you look at the numbers over the life of the vehicle there is no comparison. If the Solstice/Sky was a winner, why did GM dump them? Specialty cars have a very limited demographic. How many people already had a great Miata in those years prior? I personally liked the first gen Miata. I would probably still own it if I had bought one.
In 1980 I picked up a repo 1978 Mazda Cosmo with the Wankel engine. It was a rocket and would just keep winding. Kept it a year until I took a different job and sold it. No problems at all with it. Not great gas mileage if I remember correctly. It was a very smooth running engine compared to the 1978 Honda Accord I left back on the farm in Minnesota.
To me, they were far better-looking and less 'me, too!' than a Miata, and they seemed like good value for the buck. A Solstice was the last new Pontiac the dealer in my little sleepy hometown had.
IMHO both the Sky and Solstice were really attractive looking cars. It's just too bad that the design/mechanicals were so poor, as they had the potential to be great cars. Sort of like the PT Cruiser - I really like the looks and utility, too bad it was a Neon inside. It also could have been a great car with a few more $$ spiffing it up and putting good guts in it.
When you look at the numbers over the life of the vehicle there is no comparison. If the Solstice/Sky was a winner, why did GM dump them?
You're kidding, right? GM got rid of the two entire divisions that marketed the car, just not the Solstice/Sky by themselves. And geez, you can't compare total sales for a car made twenty years versus one made a few. It's only logical to compare same-year sales.
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They could have used the Solstice design/chassis for a cheapo Chevy sports car, if they thought it was a winner. I was comparing longevity in the market. The Miata has sold almost a million units. I don't think the Solstice/Sky made it to 100k sold. A good designed car will last longer than a poorly designed car. I was a long time GM fan until the UAW and poor management drug them into the toilet. They have not shown me anything to change my mind.
When GM dumped divisions, they dumped both of the ones selling the Solstice/Sky. They did not transition the vehicle to Chevy or Buick or Caddy. GM dumped them.
Has GM transitioned a single other vehicle from Saturn or Pontiac, to another division? And I'm not talking for fleet sales only, like the old Vue or the old G8. Not a one.
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I had a 2002 Cadillac Seville STS which is similar to the 2001 DeVille but slightly smaller. No significant issues. Currently have a 2007 Cadillac DTS Performance which is similar to the 2001 DeVille. No significant problems over the last 5 years. The Northstar V-8 takes 8 qts. of oil versus the usual five.
I never rode in my 2007 Cadillac DTS, but had the opportunity to ride in the back of a 2005 Cadillac DeVille at my friend's Dad's funeral. It is a really plush, smooth, and comfortable car for a rear seat passenger.
Fleet counts. So yeah, they did transition two vehicles. Given that there were only 5 unique vehicles between Saturn and Pontiac that the rest of the GM lineup did not, it's telling that they transitioned the Vue and the G8. The Vibe lives on as the Matrix, not surprising that GM didn't bother to transition that one. So that leaves the Astra, and the Sky/Solstice twins. The Astra was relatively expensive to import, so I can understand them discontinuing it completely as well, there's reasons other than poor sales. But the Sky/Solstice, the only reason to not transition them is because they sold poorly. Unless of course they were worried about cannibalizing Camaro sales. Which, frankly, is stupid.
They could have used the Solstice design/chassis for a cheapo Chevy sports car, if they thought it was a winner.
Then all the GM naysayers would piss and moan about wasting resources on a low volume sports car.
The Miata has sold almost a million units. I don't think the Solstice/Sky made it to 100k sold.
According to wiki, 735K Miatas have been sold worldwide between 1989 and 2011. That's an average of 32K per year over that 23 year period. It was also sold worldwide.
The Solstice/Sky/Speedster was sold for 6 model years (Sky for 5 and Speedster for 4). Total sales were almost 106K across North America and Europe. Over the same time frame, the Miata sold 124K units worldwide. Not to shabby for an upstart.
The Miata had the benefit of no competition from 1989 to 2005. I would expect them to have outsold the GM triplets.
One factor in the demise of the Solstice/Sky might have been the Chevy Camaro. IMO, Chevy would have been the most logical choice to receive the platform, as it just doesn't seem to fit into Buick's image, and I think it's too far downscale to be a Cadillac.
Now, you'd think that the Camaro and Solstice/Sky would go after different target markets, as one is a small 2-seat roadster and the other is a fairly large performance car cut in the cloth of the traditional ponycar/musclecar. But, they'd both be considered "sporty", so there probably would be some degree of overlap.
And, I guess having a cheaper alternative to the Corvette in the same showroom isn't the best marketing in the world.
Like...they did for any other Saturn or Pontiac model?
Well, towards the end, with the exception of the G8 and the Solstice/Sky, Saturn and Pontiac didn't have anything that wasn't available elsewhere. The G6/Aura were essentially the Malibu. The G5 was the Cobalt. The G3 was the Aveo. Even the Saturn Astra was essentially a hatchback version of the Cobalt/G5, just with a bit nicer interior and, IIRC, different engines. The Outlook wasn't that different from the Acadia. And the Torrent and Vue, were basically just the Equinox.
Has GM transitioned a single other vehicle from Saturn or Pontiac, to another division?
Most of them were already there. Remember GM's business model revolves around cloning and rebadging, so ya, Saturn and Pontiac were already under the other divisions:
Saturn Outlook - GMC Acadia, Buick Enclave, Chevy Traverse Saturn Aura - Pontiac G6, Chevy Rentabu, Saab 9-3 Saturn Ion - Chevy Cobalt, Pontiac G5
The second generation MX-5 (NB) was launched in 1998 and the current (NC) model has been in production since 2005. It continues to be the best-selling two-seat convertible sports car in history[1] and by February 2011 over 900,000 MX-5s had been built and sold around the world.[2]
So far this year the Miata sales are up 9% over last year. And the best selling in class ever. I have to assume Mazda is making money on them. Without a model change since 2005. Will there be a 4th generation?
In 2000, the Guinness Book of World Records declared the MX-5 the best-selling two-seat sports car in history, with total production of 531,890 units.[1] The 250,000th MX-5 rolled out of the factory on November 9, 1992; the 500,000th, on February 8, 1999; the 750,000th, in March 2004; the 800,000th in January 2007, and 900,000th in February 2011.[2]
As of February 4, 2011, Total production of MX-5 reached 900,000 units. Mazda also reapplied to Guinness World Records to have the record updated to 900,000 units
Oh gawd, I totally forgot about the Ion! But yeah, it was essentially a trial version of the Cobalt...but then when Chevy actually came out with the Cobalt, they seemed to improve upon it and get it more or less right.
I remember an old Consumer Reports test that had an Ion, Cavalier, Neon, and a couple of Japanese cars in it. IIRC, the Cavalier actually tested better than the Ion in some respects! I think one major difference was that the 4-speed automatic in the Cavalier worked a lot better than the CVT in the Ion.
For being the same basic car, I remember the seating position in the Cobalt seemed better than the Ion. I remember the Ion's seat being kind of flat and low, and not all that supportive. The Cobalt's seemed a bit better contoured, higher off the floor, and it just felt like legroom was better.
Saturn Outlook - GMC Acadia, Buick Enclave, Chevy Traverse
Not to change the subject. I do like the looks of the Acadia. Enough to ask several owners how they felt. All liked them and all were disappointed in the mileage. Averaging about 16 MPG. Not enough better than my Sequoia to take the downgrade.
Back to the original question...did GM move a single other 'clone' vehicle from one division to another, upon the discontinuation of the entire make or even just the one model?
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When you're talking about 'clone" vehicles it's a meaningless question, because they had already copied them from one division to another. That's the definition of "clone."
According to spokesman Joe LaMuraglia, the 2013 Acadia liftgate glass, spoiler, rear quarter panel and rear side glass are all sourced from the Outlook.
Comments
http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/as-seen-at-the-toyota-dealership/5517- 7/page1/
Not a one of you mentioned that.
The Colorado was built in Louisiana. Even with all that said, I still just can't handle the styling of it.
FWIW, those frames were made in the USA and supplied by Dana, who paid a handsome sum to Toyota in a settlement. ($25 million)
Dana got smart and cut its losses - they sold that whole division to some Mexican company.
And we discussed this previously, but Toyota engineered the frames and approved them for use. I wouldn't doubt that GM's bad steering columns weren't made in the U.S., but I don't blame the supplier, even though they paid GM a settlement. I blame GM--they're the ones whose name is on the product.
I don't know enough about the mechanics to say one way or the other, other than to say if the convertible top was indicative of how the rest of he car was engineered, well ..... You get the idea...
Dana paid up because the frames did *not* meet Toyota's specifications.
There's the headline, then the story, then the real story.
Headline: Tacos rust!
Story: Dana supplied sub-standard frames (made in the USA) and got caught and had to settle.
Real Story: it was so bad that Dana sold off the entire division. Bunch of jobs shipped to Mexico because some bean counter at Dana probably told them they could save 3 cents per frame by skimping on the galvanization process. Thousands of hard working Dana employees lose their jobs. Bean counter probably promoted because savings totaled more than $25 million. :sick:
Unfortunately that's how it works.
I've never driven one but FWD with that much power kinda sounds scary. May feel like the front axle is trying to rip away from the rest of the car. I'd prefer AWD with that much power.
I remember when the SS turbo was introduced. R&T really liked it(ranking it first in their pocket rocket comparo) but C&D weren't as impressed(ranking it third behind the GTI and MS3). As for horsepower my MS3 with a Mazdaspeed CAI puts out @287 bhp at the crank, so torque steer is a fact of life- but it's really only a major issue from a dead stop. On the track it's pretty manageable. That said, the MS3 is definitely going to be my one and only FWD car. It's back to RWD sleds from either Munich or Zuffenhausen...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
That's part of it. The T6 is a 7/8 F-150.
The other part is that Ford research showed that many Ranger buyers bought the model because it was cheap, not because it was a vehicle they really lusted for.
Of course, it's a SC vehicle and has seen little to no road slots, either. Only issue has been a bad radio, replaced within the 1st year of ownership.
This truck replaced a 2002 S-10 v6 extended cab. It doesn't have the "oomph!" (Probably less towing capacity, too) as much as the v6-S10 did, but it also doesn't have the squeaks and rattles that were standard equipment on the S-10, and the cabin area is a full generation larger than the S-10.
It's what I call my "gentleman's truck", so I can't attest to how it would hold up as a daily or working-man's truck, but for one who uses a truck for general transportation and occasional homeowner tasks, it's been a great, reliable vehicle up to this point.
I would buy it again, given the choice. Price wise, it was a much better deal than the Nissan Frontier... At least, around here.
The main downside was that,at this level of truck, the main option you have is color, as most of the Tacomas at this "level" are identically equipped.
Yeah, I thought of Lemko when I saw that post, too. He had a '94 DeVille, but it had the older 4.9 V-8 and not the Northstar. He also had a c2002 Seville that had the Northstar. I think it was fairly reliable for him, but he was able to get a good deal on a 2007 DTS, so he traded.
We have some family friends that have a DTS of that 2000-2005 generation. They used to live in our neighborhood, but moved down to Southern Maryland back in 2000. This is gonna make us sound like a bunch of hicks I know, but she once said that she'd feel that she was "well off" when she had a paved driveway, and a red Cadillac! Well, now she has 'em both! About the best I can counter with is #57 gravel and a 34-year old 5th Ave. :P
Sales figures from 2006-2009 do not back that up.
2006: Miata - 17K Solstice - 21K
2007: Miata - 15K Solstice/Sky - 40K
2008: Miata - 11K Solstice/Sky - 29K
2009: Miata - 8K Solstice/Sky - 9K (last production year)
I also noticed some glowing consumer reviews of the Sky Redline Turbo
on Edmunds. Pretty quick little roadster.
I didn't notice any comment about reliability in the Mazda RX-8 review. On the reliability page the engine gets big red X's for the first 3 or 4 years of production and according to Edmunds consumer reviews, those rotary engines are pretty bad. There are quite a few unhappy owners.
Why does the Sky have a reputation for bad reliability but the RX-8 does not?
IMHO both the Sky and Solstice were really attractive looking cars. It's just too bad that the design/mechanicals were so poor, as they had the potential to be great cars. Sort of like the PT Cruiser - I really like the looks and utility, too bad it was a Neon inside. It also could have been a great car with a few more $$ spiffing it up and putting good guts in it.
You're kidding, right? GM got rid of the two entire divisions that marketed the car, just not the Solstice/Sky by themselves. And geez, you can't compare total sales for a car made twenty years versus one made a few. It's only logical to compare same-year sales.
Then all the GM naysayers would piss and moan about wasting resources on a low volume sports car.
The Miata has sold almost a million units. I don't think the Solstice/Sky made it to 100k sold.
According to wiki, 735K Miatas have been sold worldwide between 1989 and 2011. That's an average of 32K per year over that 23 year period. It was also sold worldwide.
The Solstice/Sky/Speedster was sold for 6 model years (Sky for 5 and Speedster for 4). Total sales were almost 106K across North America and Europe. Over the same time frame, the Miata sold 124K units worldwide. Not to shabby for an upstart.
The Miata had the benefit of no competition from 1989 to 2005. I would expect them to have outsold the GM triplets.
If they had been truly successful GM would have found a way to move them to other divisions.
Like...they did for any other Saturn or Pontiac model?
Now, you'd think that the Camaro and Solstice/Sky would go after different target markets, as one is a small 2-seat roadster and the other is a fairly large performance car cut in the cloth of the traditional ponycar/musclecar. But, they'd both be considered "sporty", so there probably would be some degree of overlap.
And, I guess having a cheaper alternative to the Corvette in the same showroom isn't the best marketing in the world.
Well, towards the end, with the exception of the G8 and the Solstice/Sky, Saturn and Pontiac didn't have anything that wasn't available elsewhere. The G6/Aura were essentially the Malibu. The G5 was the Cobalt. The G3 was the Aveo. Even the Saturn Astra was essentially a hatchback version of the Cobalt/G5, just with a bit nicer interior and, IIRC, different engines. The Outlook wasn't that different from the Acadia. And the Torrent and Vue, were basically just the Equinox.
Most of them were already there. Remember GM's business model revolves around cloning and rebadging, so ya, Saturn and Pontiac were already under the other divisions:
Saturn Outlook - GMC Acadia, Buick Enclave, Chevy Traverse
Saturn Aura - Pontiac G6, Chevy Rentabu, Saab 9-3
Saturn Ion - Chevy Cobalt, Pontiac G5
Pontiac G6 - Aura, Rentabu, 9-3...
Pontiac G5 - Cobalt, Ion...
Pontiac G3 - Chevy Aveo, Suzuki (Can't remember)
Pontiac Torent - Nox, Suzuki XL-7
And then there was the afformentioned Solstice and Sky, which were the only cars (Kappa) that were eliminated during GM's phoney "Downsizing"...
Which other Saturn/Pontiac vehicles were truly successful that didn't already have clones in the other divisions?
The second generation MX-5 (NB) was launched in 1998 and the current (NC) model has been in production since 2005. It continues to be the best-selling two-seat convertible sports car in history[1] and by February 2011 over 900,000 MX-5s had been built and sold around the world.[2]
So far this year the Miata sales are up 9% over last year. And the best selling in class ever. I have to assume Mazda is making money on them. Without a model change since 2005. Will there be a 4th generation?
In 2000, the Guinness Book of World Records declared the MX-5 the best-selling two-seat sports car in history, with total production of 531,890 units.[1] The 250,000th MX-5 rolled out of the factory on November 9, 1992; the 500,000th, on February 8, 1999; the 750,000th, in March 2004; the 800,000th in January 2007, and 900,000th in February 2011.[2]
As of February 4, 2011, Total production of MX-5 reached 900,000 units. Mazda also reapplied to Guinness World Records to have the record updated to 900,000 units
Oh gawd, I totally forgot about the Ion! But yeah, it was essentially a trial version of the Cobalt...but then when Chevy actually came out with the Cobalt, they seemed to improve upon it and get it more or less right.
I remember an old Consumer Reports test that had an Ion, Cavalier, Neon, and a couple of Japanese cars in it. IIRC, the Cavalier actually tested better than the Ion in some respects! I think one major difference was that the 4-speed automatic in the Cavalier worked a lot better than the CVT in the Ion.
For being the same basic car, I remember the seating position in the Cobalt seemed better than the Ion. I remember the Ion's seat being kind of flat and low, and not all that supportive. The Cobalt's seemed a bit better contoured, higher off the floor, and it just felt like legroom was better.
Not to change the subject. I do like the looks of the Acadia. Enough to ask several owners how they felt. All liked them and all were disappointed in the mileage. Averaging about 16 MPG. Not enough better than my Sequoia to take the downgrade.
And, in a funky sort of way, I have to admit I found the old L-series sort of appealing.
GM basically used the old Outlook design to replace the Acadia during the latest refresh. They recycled it, basically.
G8 is the new Chevy cop car, and the Vue is the Chevy Captiva in many markets. A bunch of old Pontiac/Saturn stuff survived.
Will there be a 4th generation [Miata]?
Yes, the ND is planned and will share a platform with a new Alfa Romeo Spyder.
The Miata should be the lighter, back-to-basics car with a smaller turbo engine (a first), and let's see but I suspect Alfa will go more premium.
Yes, the old Outlook is the new Acadia.
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/02/10/gm-confirms-discontinued-saturn-outlook-parts- -used-in-refreshed/
GMC PR did answer our request.
According to spokesman Joe LaMuraglia, the 2013 Acadia liftgate glass, spoiler, rear quarter panel and rear side glass are all sourced from the Outlook.
Keep in mind the rest was already cloned.
GM is headed back into the tank. They need adult leadership, not political hacks and cronies.
The Outlook and Acadia were sold simultaneously.
Please provide a single example where a discontinued model was moved to a different division...GM or Ford, for that matter.
For all those who admire CR, they recommend the Traverse, which is mechanically identical.
Saturn Vue/Chevy Captiva.
Pontiac G8/Chevy Caprice PPV.
IMHO the Lambdas are competitive, more like Chik-Fil-A nuggets.
Traverse is the top large SUV in CR's Buying Guide 2013, which I just got this week.
Saturn Vue/Chevy Captiva.
Pontiac G8/Chevy Caprice PPV.
Oh and the Pontiac G8 ALSO eventually became the Chevy Camaro.