OH YES! GM should bring a version of this car back. The last model year were awesome machines. GM could plan on this being a low volume seller and plan accordingly. This would be a niche car and a vehicle that would build GM's reputation. The reputation for being able to build fun, sporty, cars.. I have a neighbor that has a GTP Solstice and it is a beauty. Very well built, very solid car. Car is very quick and handles wonderful. He only drives it in good weather.
Apple could outsell all other cellphone manufacturers combined if they priced the iPhone at $10.00 each, but it would hardly be considered a successful product selling at such a loss.
Vegas sold by the 100,000's, yet every knowledgable car analyst would classify it as a failure.
Rolls sell by the dozens, yet those analysts would probably consider it a success.
The end result tells the story. The Solstice/Sky didn't make a sufficient return on the allocated assets to justify its continued existence, or it would still be in production. There isn't a GM executive alive that would want to explain how GM axed a profitable model while begging for government bailouts.
You're free to make your own definition of what a "success or failure" is.
more customers does not a success make. Not when Mazda is making a PROFIT off of their Miata numbers and GM is NOT making a profit off of the Kappa
I just did a bit of research on GM and Mazda. As well as I can learn, for the year 2011, Mazda managed to make a profit after about 4 years of losses. On net revenue of about $40B it had a profit for the year of about $125M which is around .4% profit. GM in 2011 had record profits of $7.6B on revenue of around $150B which is about a 5% profit.
GM profit was roughly 10X that of Mazda and the trend is continuing in 2012, most notably because of plunging Mazda sales in China. Apparently many Chinese still remember what the Japanese did to them over 70 years ago. GM profits are in spite of the losses they are incurring in Europe.
lol, it's always the greedy workers and never the management.
I wonder if the Skye/Solstice tooling is still around. Since they sold off the factory, all that stuff may have been scrapped.
I hope everyone enjoys their deep-fried Twinkies for the US Thanksgiving. You can find the recipe using your flawless Compaq computer and print it out on your lovely ink-sucking HP printer. Two more examples of exemplary company management.
GM is roughly 20x bigger than Mazda, it had better be able to make 10x the profit with a favorable tax deal with the US government. They still dropped the Kappa platform, which implies that it was not a profitable venture for them (this isn't about GM being profitable vs Mazda, it's aboutthe Sky/Solstice twins being profitable (or not) vs the Miata.
You would think a company would be very profitable after raping the tax payers. Chances are good we will lose at least $20 billion from GM and for sure about $30 billion to the UAW that was a gift from Obama to his faithful followers. And how many $billion on the Volt? They could sell a million and we would lose money on every one of them.
That is exactly what is wrong with GM. They think the more you sell the better you are. Not true in any realistic world of finance. Nothing is more important than happy customers and happy stockholders. GM has not done well with either.
Oh, and good news for the taxpayers. GM stock is up over 20% YTD. I apologize for the bad (for some) news.
It is great news if we ever see the $54 billion the tax payers dumped into GM and the UAW. Not to mention the billions lost by bondholders. Many of which were held by various pension plans. Part of the Inconvenient truth in the bailout.
I don't think unions are a pariah any more than CEO's. Unions brought upon many workplace improvements that we enjoyed. What is wrong with both of these is that the gov doesn't always have fair and level rules and laws which can lead to unintended consequences and/or market distortions.
Yes many CEOs are greedy worthless you know whats. Not all Unions are bad. I think the UAW has set several bad precedents over the last 50 years that the tax payers are getting screwed over.
First not setting up their own pension plans. The Union bosses set up Ponzi scheme retirement plans with the automakers brass. Those are bad from the get go. Latest example is Hostess.
Second they have spent union dues on frivolous projects that the rank and file do NOT get any benefit from.
Third and most damning is backing political leaders that have put this country into the mess it currently is in.
Found more customers than the same years' Miata, and it's 'a failure'.
Only on this forum.
This statement reflects a lack of understanding of business. Companies are in business to make money. If GM was not making money on those cars then they were failures. Mazda's cost structure is I'm sure quite different and I dare guess much more efficient than GM. Which means that Mazda can make money on the Miata at a far lower sales rate than GM. Mazda might even have been able to make the Solstice/Sky and make money on them, except that the Miata is already better. Sales have nothing to do with it.
Sales are not equal to success. GM can always have more sales. Just sell all new vehicles for $10K each. I guarantee GM will have all factories running at max output. You might call that a success, I'd call it a failure, as in that scenario GM would not last long.
How long 'til one of the folks on here wishes bodily harm (seriously) on UAW workers. You saw it here, folks.
Isn't the UAW the union that has already been violent numerous times? An example:
WINCHESTER, Va. (July 12, 2001) - National Right to Work Foundation attorneys have forced the payment of an undisclosed monetary settlement, in a case against the United Auto Workers (UAW) union, for involvement in a violence campaign against non-striking workers at Abex Friction Products (now Federal-Mogul Friction Products, a General Motors supplier) in 1996.
“On Saturday, a man reported strikers had dented his vehicle with a ball bearing, broke the mirror and dented the hood. Damage was estimated at $1,000. Another employee said two small dents that appeared to be from a pellet gun were made in his car, causing $1,000 in damage. Replacement workers have also said screws have littered the entrance to Kohler as they enter.”
Sales are not equal to success. GM can always have more sales. Just sell all new vehicles for $10K each. I guarantee GM will have all factories running at max output. You might call that a success, I'd call it a failure, as in that scenario GM would not last long
Like that would ever happen in the real world.
There are sure a lot of armchair financial 'experts' on this forum.
No one knows that GM lost money on the Solstice/Sky. But they didn't see fit to shift it to another division/dealer group. Do we know that they lost money on the G8? I don't know that. Most here would probably say that though.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Mine's a Hyundai. My next one will be a Mazda SkyActiv (3 or CX-5) most likely, though I might look at the C-Max Hybrid, or the EcoBoost Fiesta when it drops. I do 100 miles a day and all. :shades:
No one knows that GM lost money on the Solstice/Sky.
That is true, just like no one knows if Toyota actually makes much on the Prius. Automakers do not put that in their financial reports. I do get suspicious when they dump whole divisions like Olds, Pontiac and Saturn. And I am very skeptical of the glowing financials being spread around to help the election process. Are GM profits an illusion??? Is GM the next Twinkie to fall??
The Cadillac ATS might be good, but it’s niche. The Corvette certainly lives up to the hype, but it’s niche. The Chevy Volt is well-hyped, but it’s not the most technologically advanced car in the world, it’s just well placed in the market, and it’s niche.
Tout all you want, but their money-maker isn’t a money-maker, and the stuff that is making money isn’t making enough to keep them afloat. The execs at GM know this, so they’re doing everything they can to keep up appearances and cover the losses. Fleet sales and rental car sales are up, which sounds good, but is detrimental to the brand image. GM is also under a lawsuit for packing dealer lots with profitable pickups and counting them as sales before they’re sold. If the trucks don’t sell, GM will have to discount them, cutting the profits on another bread-and-butter vehicle. Which brings us to full-size trucks and SUVs. GM prides itself on being a leader in the full-size SUV market. in the pre-bankruptcy days, trucks and SUVs were a foundation of GM’s profitability. Then oil prices rose dramatically and crushed sales. Now the sales have returned and GM has once again built a leg of its foundation on the shifting sand of oil prices. Also, GM’s pickups are going through a redesign. If they botch the launch like they botched the Malibu it could spell disaster.
I will side with uplanderguy on this one - remember there were 4 if you include the coupe and the Opel.
Also GM spent nothing on the R&D since they reused parts off the shelf.
For them to lose money they would have to had spent money.
My beef is it was designed by bean counters to be cheap enough to sell in volume, not by engineers to be a great car.
Miata had always been around, so there was no pent up demand. Solstice had a receptive audience, tons of dealers, and incentives and cheap financing to get them out there in numbers. I'm sure they broke even.
They DID spend money. Not a lot necessarily, in relation to some other vehicles, but they did spend money developing it. They also spent money building it. If they thought they could make money by continuing to sell it I have no doubt they would have continued to build it. If you're in financial trouble you don't throw away profitable products.
After all, GM has managed to make some profits on "not great" cars before.
Whether or not the Sky/Solstice/Opel GT made money, lost money or broke even isn't the issue. The issue is the car didn't bring enough to the "table" to continue production, so the entire plant making them was idled in the process.
It was never really a "world car", since it was only made in a left-hand drive version, so that added in limited appeal overall.
In the end, even if GM was making a few bucks, it wasn't enough, especially since the car was in its 5-6 year life cycle and needing a "refresh" in order to stay marketable long term, which meant even more expense.
Given its constraints, it was a relatively popular vehicle. And, some manufacturers think its a fairly deep market. The Miata continues, and BMW/MINI have, in the last 2 years, introduced 2-seater MINI coupes and roadsters.
After all, GM has managed to make some profits on "not great" cars before.
I can attest to that. Somewhere around 2000 they dropped the ball on building decent PU trucks. My 2005 GMC Hybrid was supposed to be their latest and greatest. It was a poorly engineered and assembled truck. I personally think 1998 was GM's last good year. The UAW broke their backs and they have never recovered. In spite of $billions in wasted tax dollars.
I tried to give them a last chance in 2007 when I test drove a Denali and Escalade. Just not what I would call World class SUVs as they proclaim. Both way over priced for what you got.
Actually, if you stretch the pricing a bit, the BMW 1-series is a competitor as well.
Given that the MINIs are front-drive, I'm not sure if they actually compete with the RWD Miata and the Kappa twins. Toyota had the MR2 for a while, which was also RWD.
That is true, just like no one knows if Toyota actually makes much on the Prius.
At least you're no longer saying Toyota loses money on the Prius. The Prius came out in '98 and started making money for Toyota in '01, per the LA Times. I bet the R&D costs have sunk close to "ordinary" car levels. 14% of all their vehicles are hybrids.
Toyota stock is just $3 off the yearly high in spite of all the recalls, sudden acceleration news, recessionary trends in Japan, more hybrid competition (C-Max or Spark EV anyone?) and the Chinese conflict. My guess is that a big part of what's saving them is all the production they do in the US.
Buyer loyalty may also play into it a bit. Remember that it took a long time of product issues and declining quality before large numbers of customers bailed out of GM products. Toyota is flying relatively high right now, but over time they need to get a better handle on product issues. GM history shows that when customers finally lose confidence, it takes a long time and difficult effort to get them back.
You know, I'm just not sold on the significance of FWD .vs. RWD in a car at this level of marketability.
I remember reading an article a few months ago regarding the BMW 1-series, and a surprisingly high number of owners thought the car was FWD in Europe, where the 1 series is sold widely as a hatchback sedan.
Of course, in a performance car, it makes a difference to many buyers.
While the Sky is a sporty car, it really wasn't what I would call a performance car, and well over half the Sky/Solstice drivers I see are middle-aged women. A fellow my age (I'm 58) down the street had a Sky Redline for a couple of years, and about a year ago traded it for a new Acura. I can count on 1 hand how many times I saw it being driven.
I don't think people are all that brand loyal, but they do depend on reputation. All GM has to do is assemble a great car for a great price and word will get around fast. Finding the magical sweet spot of say, a Mustang, doesn't happen every day though.
Everyone rags on GM but look at Chrysler. Specifically Jeep. Lousy reputation for reliability and they still sell a ton.
GM could bring back the Skye as a boulevard cruiser with a bunch of tweaks (telematics, hybrid tech, all the bells and whistles) and they could have another halo car, for a lot less money than a Volt.
I thought Jeep had a good rep for reliability. Folks I have talked to about the Grand Cherokee love them. One owner was selling his with over 200,000 miles and buying another one. He drives over 100 miles a day round trip. I was kind of hoping the GC Diesel would be a good choice for me. If it ever gets to the showrooms.
Well I will have to say that when they stopped the Bravada in 2003, it became the Rainier for 2004. I know, we bought one brand new in '04, and still have it!!!!
lol, I didn't even think about the Liberty CRD when I wrote that. Our JGC Identifix ratings are fine since '07 but JD Power's IQS ratings are mostly average for the mechanical stuff. True Delta looks about the same.
I get a bit jaded since I read SUVs every day and see a lot of problem reports and those JGC discussions are pretty active.
I'd never consider one, but I hope that the ATS is a success- especially with real enthusiasts. BMW tends to become complacent when they aren't being challenged- and they do their best work when someone is nipping at their heels.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I've got 22 K on the clock on my '11 JGC 4x4 with no problems. I talked a co-worker into buying one and she too has had no problems (she's got 26 K on it--soccer mom). Sometimes I wish I'd gone with the V8 but the Pentastar is fine for everyday driving and I get 21 mpg. I'm with you on the diesel. If and when it ever comes out, I'd trade mine in for the diesel. I wonder what the tow rating would be?
While it may be "niche" to the entire auto world, it isn't niche to Caddy,
Well in the ATS first full month of sales it is their 4th best seller in the lineup. CTS and XTS each sold about twice as many. Caddy's top seller by double any other is the mostly foreign made SRX. So much for Caddy be an American made line.
Looking at the pictures of the ATS, I like it better than the rest of the lineup. Cleaner lines in my eyes.
Comments
Apple could outsell all other cellphone manufacturers combined if they priced the iPhone at $10.00 each, but it would hardly be considered a successful product selling at such a loss.
Vegas sold by the 100,000's, yet every knowledgable car analyst would classify it as a failure.
Rolls sell by the dozens, yet those analysts would probably consider it a success.
The end result tells the story. The Solstice/Sky didn't make a sufficient return on the allocated assets to justify its continued existence, or it would still be in production. There isn't a GM executive alive that would want to explain how GM axed a profitable model while begging for government bailouts.
You're free to make your own definition of what a "success or failure" is.
I just did a bit of research on GM and Mazda. As well as I can learn, for the year 2011, Mazda managed to make a profit after about 4 years of losses.
On net revenue of about $40B it had a profit for the year of about $125M which is around .4% profit. GM in 2011 had record profits of $7.6B on revenue of around $150B which is about a 5% profit.
GM profit was roughly 10X that of Mazda and the trend is continuing in 2012, most notably because of plunging Mazda sales in China. Apparently many Chinese still remember what the Japanese did to them over 70 years ago. GM profits are in spite of the losses they are incurring in Europe.
Au Contraire, Mon Frère
my statement was as follows:
The Miata has sold almost a million units. I don't think the Solstice/Sky made it to 100k sold.
900,000 is closer to one million than 735,813 is to 900k.
I do hope all here have a Wonderful Thanksgiving at this lead up to the Winter "Solstice".......
It was all those over paid UAW employees sucking the company and now the tax payers dry.....
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/daily-news/110204-Mazda-MX-5-Mi- ata-Production-Hits-900-000-Units/
I wonder if the Skye/Solstice tooling is still around. Since they sold off the factory, all that stuff may have been scrapped.
I hope everyone enjoys their deep-fried Twinkies for the US Thanksgiving. You can find the recipe using your flawless Compaq computer and print it out on your lovely ink-sucking HP printer. Two more examples of exemplary company management.
Depending on what statistic is used, GM is only about 5X larger than Mazda.
As of 2011:
GM had approx 5X the number of employees.
Produced approx 4X the number of cars.
Had approx 5X the Gross Revenue.
But GM had 63X more profit than Mazda.
Oh, and good news for the taxpayers. GM stock is up over 20% YTD.
I apologize for the bad (for some) news.
GM stock price, 12/31/2010 -$36.83
GM stock price, 11/21/2011 -$21.05
GM stock price, 12/30/2011 -$20.27
GM stock price, 11/21/2012 -$24.60
GM stock price, 12/31/2010 -$36.83
GM stock price, 11/21/2011 -$21.05
GM stock price, 12/30/2011 -$20.27
GM stock price, 11/21/2012 -$24.60
Well, yeah, I guess that technically is 20% up YTD. If you ignore how low of a long-term historic value that actually is.
You know it, I know it, everybody knows it.
That is exactly what is wrong with GM. They think the more you sell the better you are. Not true in any realistic world of finance. Nothing is more important than happy customers and happy stockholders. GM has not done well with either.
I apologize for the bad (for some) news.
It is great news if we ever see the $54 billion the tax payers dumped into GM and the UAW. Not to mention the billions lost by bondholders. Many of which were held by various pension plans. Part of the Inconvenient truth in the bailout.
First not setting up their own pension plans. The Union bosses set up Ponzi scheme retirement plans with the automakers brass. Those are bad from the get go. Latest example is Hostess.
Second they have spent union dues on frivolous projects that the rank and file do NOT get any benefit from.
Third and most damning is backing political leaders that have put this country into the mess it currently is in.
:P
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Only on this forum.
This statement reflects a lack of understanding of business. Companies are in business to make money. If GM was not making money on those cars then they were failures. Mazda's cost structure is I'm sure quite different and I dare guess much more efficient than GM. Which means that Mazda can make money on the Miata at a far lower sales rate than GM. Mazda might even have been able to make the Solstice/Sky and make money on them, except that the Miata is already better. Sales have nothing to do with it.
Sales are not equal to success. GM can always have more sales. Just sell all new vehicles for $10K each. I guarantee GM will have all factories running at max output. You might call that a success, I'd call it a failure, as in that scenario GM would not last long.
... and sold by Chevy dealers!
Brilliant.
Isn't the UAW the union that has already been violent numerous times? An example:
WINCHESTER, Va. (July 12, 2001) - National Right to Work Foundation attorneys have forced the payment of an undisclosed monetary settlement, in a case against the United Auto Workers (UAW) union, for involvement in a violence campaign against non-striking workers at Abex Friction Products (now Federal-Mogul Friction Products, a General Motors supplier) in 1996.
“On Saturday, a man reported strikers had dented his vehicle with a ball bearing, broke the mirror and dented the hood. Damage was estimated at $1,000. Another employee said two small dents that appeared to be from a pellet gun were made in his car, causing $1,000 in damage. Replacement workers have also said screws have littered the entrance to Kohler as they enter.”
I doubt the posters here can top that.
Amen.
And my DD is an Acura, built right here in the USA (Ohio, I believe). And my wife's is a Honda also built in the States.
A Happy Thanksgiving to all on the forum - don't eat too much, and exercise it off the rest of the weekend!
Like that would ever happen in the real world.
There are sure a lot of armchair financial 'experts' on this forum.
No one knows that GM lost money on the Solstice/Sky. But they didn't see fit to shift it to another division/dealer group. Do we know that they lost money on the G8? I don't know that. Most here would probably say that though.
If you don't have selective memory, think back to some of andres3's posts--one in particular.
"Calling Dr. Phil"!
Like that would ever happen in the real world.
Yeah, if that were to happen in the real world, an automaker might go bankrupt.
Oh, wait, that did happen in the real world.
That is true, just like no one knows if Toyota actually makes much on the Prius. Automakers do not put that in their financial reports. I do get suspicious when they dump whole divisions like Olds, Pontiac and Saturn. And I am very skeptical of the glowing financials being spread around to help the election process. Are GM profits an illusion??? Is GM the next Twinkie to fall??
The Cadillac ATS might be good, but it’s niche. The Corvette certainly lives up to the hype, but it’s niche. The Chevy Volt is well-hyped, but it’s not the most technologically advanced car in the world, it’s just well placed in the market, and it’s niche.
Tout all you want, but their money-maker isn’t a money-maker, and the stuff that is making money isn’t making enough to keep them afloat. The execs at GM know this, so they’re doing everything they can to keep up appearances and cover the losses. Fleet sales and rental car sales are up, which sounds good, but is detrimental to the brand image. GM is also under a lawsuit for packing dealer lots with profitable pickups and counting them as sales before they’re sold. If the trucks don’t sell, GM will have to discount them, cutting the profits on another bread-and-butter vehicle.
Which brings us to full-size trucks and SUVs. GM prides itself on being a leader in the full-size SUV market. in the pre-bankruptcy days, trucks and SUVs were a foundation of GM’s profitability. Then oil prices rose dramatically and crushed sales. Now the sales have returned and GM has once again built a leg of its foundation on the shifting sand of oil prices. Also, GM’s pickups are going through a redesign. If they botch the launch like they botched the Malibu it could spell disaster.
How long will GM survive?
You know it, I know it, everybody knows it.
Including fleet sales, right? Wink wink
Also GM spent nothing on the R&D since they reused parts off the shelf.
For them to lose money they would have to had spent money.
My beef is it was designed by bean counters to be cheap enough to sell in volume, not by engineers to be a great car.
Miata had always been around, so there was no pent up demand. Solstice had a receptive audience, tons of dealers, and incentives and cheap financing to get them out there in numbers. I'm sure they broke even.
But based on merit it was not a great car.
It soooooo should have been.
After all, GM has managed to make some profits on "not great" cars before.
Even I'll say that doesn't sound like a very serious recall.
I'll "reach across the table" and wish all on here a Happy Thanksgiving!
Whether or not the Sky/Solstice/Opel GT made money, lost money or broke even isn't the issue. The issue is the car didn't bring enough to the "table" to continue production, so the entire plant making them was idled in the process.
It was never really a "world car", since it was only made in a left-hand drive version, so that added in limited appeal overall.
In the end, even if GM was making a few bucks, it wasn't enough, especially since the car was in its 5-6 year life cycle and needing a "refresh" in order to stay marketable long term, which meant even more expense.
Given its constraints, it was a relatively popular vehicle. And, some manufacturers think its a fairly deep market. The Miata continues, and BMW/MINI have, in the last 2 years, introduced 2-seater MINI coupes and roadsters.
I can attest to that. Somewhere around 2000 they dropped the ball on building decent PU trucks. My 2005 GMC Hybrid was supposed to be their latest and greatest. It was a poorly engineered and assembled truck. I personally think 1998 was GM's last good year. The UAW broke their backs and they have never recovered. In spite of $billions in wasted tax dollars.
I tried to give them a last chance in 2007 when I test drove a Denali and Escalade. Just not what I would call World class SUVs as they proclaim. Both way over priced for what you got.
Given that the MINIs are front-drive, I'm not sure if they actually compete with the RWD Miata and the Kappa twins. Toyota had the MR2 for a while, which was also RWD.
At least you're no longer saying Toyota loses money on the Prius. The Prius came out in '98 and started making money for Toyota in '01, per the LA Times. I bet the R&D costs have sunk close to "ordinary" car levels. 14% of all their vehicles are hybrids.
Toyota stock is just $3 off the yearly high in spite of all the recalls, sudden acceleration news, recessionary trends in Japan, more hybrid competition (C-Max or Spark EV anyone?) and the Chinese conflict. My guess is that a big part of what's saving them is all the production they do in the US.
I remember reading an article a few months ago regarding the BMW 1-series, and a surprisingly high number of owners thought the car was FWD in Europe, where the 1 series is sold widely as a hatchback sedan.
Of course, in a performance car, it makes a difference to many buyers.
While the Sky is a sporty car, it really wasn't what I would call a performance car, and well over half the Sky/Solstice drivers I see are middle-aged women. A fellow my age (I'm 58) down the street had a Sky Redline for a couple of years, and about a year ago traded it for a new Acura. I can count on 1 hand how many times I saw it being driven.
Everyone rags on GM but look at Chrysler. Specifically Jeep. Lousy reputation for reliability and they still sell a ton.
GM could bring back the Skye as a boulevard cruiser with a bunch of tweaks (telematics, hybrid tech, all the bells and whistles) and they could have another halo car, for a lot less money than a Volt.
I get a bit jaded since I read SUVs every day and see a lot of problem reports and those JGC discussions are pretty active.
I'd call BS on that one.
While it may be "niche" to the entire auto world, it isn't niche to Caddy, just like the 3 series isn't niche to BMW, but is, in an automotive sense
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Happy Thanksgiving, folks!
Well in the ATS first full month of sales it is their 4th best seller in the lineup. CTS and XTS each sold about twice as many. Caddy's top seller by double any other is the mostly foreign made SRX. So much for Caddy be an American made line.
Looking at the pictures of the ATS, I like it better than the rest of the lineup. Cleaner lines in my eyes.