Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

ateixeira

Power sliders are great.

I coach a hoops team, so I'm giving rides to bunches of little kids, as many as 6 at a time.

To be able to stay in my seat, open the door, leave it open until I see them make it home safe, close it and go...that's priceless.

It also lets you control which doors to open (curb side only).

On a hot day, vents the hot air out very quickly, and you can open it before you reach the car.

Kids sleeping and you're carrying them - door's open before you reach the car.

Wish I had a power tail gate as well. Kids could pick up their basketballs and stuff from the cargo area.

ateixeira

What's my point?

Dodge replaced the short wheelbase Caravan with the Journey, it's not like that car has set the sales charts on fire.

They're saying one van will disappear, my guess is the Town & Country. Whatever they replace it with will not sell 111k units/years, so I have no doubt they'll lose sales.

So don't do it.

uplanderguy

I thought the Uplander looked better than other minivans--the rear third matched the front two (!) and had handsome wheels IMO--but their stiffening up the structure to do better in crash tests, IMHO, made it ride rougher than the preceding Venture. Mine never left us stranded and at 94K miles was inexpensive to operate from the get-go.

I didn't like it looking straight on from the rear, as the Venture heritage was extremely obvious.

I paid $23K for ours, which was a good ten grand less than other Odysseys I'd heard about...that is not insignificant. At some point, I ask myself, "how much is (this/that) worth it to me?". In a car, that thing is usually not worth it to me.

keystonecarfan

If a Windstar ran long enough for the vehicle to rust, the owner was lucky. Those vehicles were notorious for head-gasket failures with the 3.8 V-6, along with serious transmission problems.

gagrice

Just looking at the UK Carpages and it seems Chrysler is one of the only companies offering a Mini Van. They only offer it with diesel engine. Gets close to 35 MPG on the highway which seems pretty good for a big box. Same size as the T&C sold here. I don't see either Honda or Toyota mini-vans.

gagrice

I have a friend with a 2003 Windstar that has had no problems and just passed 140k miles. He is keeping it for hauling stuff around. He just bought a new GMC Terrain. It was the 1.9% loan for 60 months that hooked him.

The Windstar was bought while they lived in OK. It has been here 4 years. I don't see any rust. You rarely hear about the 1000s of satisfied owners.

ateixeira

Actually that's true and applies for every brand.

The complainers are louder and the stories are repeated.

My brother-in-law still drives his '92 Accord daily. I think he's near 250k now, something like that.

dieselone

The Windstar was bought while they lived in OK. It has been here 4 years. I don't see any rust. You rarely hear about the 1000s of satisfied owners.

True. The guy I know that had the Windstar was very happy. Ford gave him more for it that it was worth. He used the money towards a used Uplander.

IIRC, the Windstar didn't have visible rust, it was in the frame/rear axle area.

andre1969

I wonder if Windstars were crap right up until the end, or if it was just the earlier models? There's a lady here at work who has a 2002 or 2003 Windstar that was a gov't auction vehicle. She bought it about 4 years ago. Currently has about 130,000 miles on it.

I asked her about the engine and transmission, and she says she's never had any problems. Of course, she bought it used, so maybe both blew, and were replaced before she bought it!

I do know a few people who have had issues with them, though. Usually happened around 90,000 miles as I recall.

As for Oklahoma, I don't think cars rust there, do they? :P I was out there in 1995, and was surprised at all the rust-free 20, 30, even 40 year old cars still driving around. Lots of 50's and 60's stuff in the junkyards as well that, while sun-faded, was remarkably rust-free.

berri

It always seemed to me back then that a symptom of Detroit's quality issues was that so often owners of identical cars would end up with very different ownership experiences. I'm sure every manufacturer puts out an occassional bad vehicle, but I think the quantity of that is significantly lower than even a decade ago. Better QC today.

stever

I wonder if Windstars were crap right up until the end

If you look at that Identifix link I posted earlier today, I think the answer is "yes".

isellhondas

" There was a serious problem with complete transmission failure on all V-6 equipped Hondas and Acuras built between 1999 and 2004"

Really....ALL of them failed?

Sorry but that is porbably the worst "information" I have ever read in these forums and I've been around since the beginning.

Granted, the failure rates were MUCH higher than anyone would expect fron Honda. Had thse been produced by Chrysler it would have been considered par for the course. I had a lot of customers with 150,000 miles and more who never had a hint of trouble!

Honda stepped up to the plate ane extended the warranties to 100,000 miles and more even on the Odysseys that had been overloaded, trashed and came in with Class III trailer hitches hanging off the rear.

A lot of people TRASH minivans and still expect them to last forever.

uplanderguy

You may or many not have seen this, but a coworker--and the only person I actually know with an Odyssey--had to pay $1,800 'goodwill' for Honda to replace his entire trans on his '05 model. He was sore.

dieselone

Granted, the failure rates were MUCH higher than anyone would expect fron Honda. Had thse been produced by Chrysler it would have been considered par for the course. I had a lot of customers with 150,000 miles and more who never had a hint of trouble!

I agree. I know a guy with an 05 or 06 MDX that has well over 100k miles on it w/o issues despite the fact he tows a 4k lb boat with it nearly every weekend in the summer. So apparently, they all don't die early

gagrice

Honda stepped up to the plate ane extended the warranties to 100,000 miles and more even on the Odysseys

My wife's Grandson has one of those Odysseys. Honda replaced his transmission at 107k miles. He is now up to 150k and plans to keep it a few more years. It is the dark blue, is parked outside all the time and still looks good. He would buy a new one. Just cannot get past the ugly look. His model is probably the best looking mini van ever built. He plans to wait and see what Honda comes up with in the next model of the Odyssey.

tlong

That's the cheapest model, and rental grade at that. I wouldn't read too much in to that experience.

That might help with the interior, but it doesn't change the poor ratio of economy/size/storage space.

andre1969

I always thought they were poorly laid out, too. The second and third row seats seem like miserable places to sit, way too low to the floor and with thin cushions, and there's really not a whole lot of room.

If you transport small kids who can fit, they might be good, but if you want a good, roomy 4-adult vehicle, I think the Equinox actually fits that bill better. It's narrower inside, and no third row seat, but the seats that it does have are pretty comfy, and legroom's good.

Now, it's been awhile since I've sat in an Enclave...it might have better seats than the Acadias and Traverses and Lookouts I've sat in.

uplanderguy

I doubt the spaciousness of the third seat in an Enclave would be better than any other Lambda, but of course trim might be.

I'm 5'8 or so and well over 200 lbs, and my wife and I fit fine in the third row of a friend's Enclave.

lemko

What often rides in minivans? Dogs and kids! Dogs and kids can trash an M-1 Abrams tank!

gagrice

You got a point there. I have watched people open them up and stuff fall out on the ground. Two feet deep in McDonalds cups and wrappers. I would never let my kids eat in any of my vehicles. We either went inside to eat or took the food home.

stever

Bah, what's the use of having an expensive utility vehicle if you don't use it?

No dogs or kids, but the cup holders get frequent use and the back hauls garbage cans of compost and plywood.

anythngbutgm

My father bought one of the first MDX's off the showroom floor back in 2001 and drove 150k miles without ever replacing his.

My wife had an 03' that we kept for a little over 90k and never replaced that one either. Only reason we traded it for her outback that she is currently driving was the gas mileage (and the req. for premium) and that it had been rear ended on the highway by a guy doing about 80mph when he hit us and the vehicle was never the same afterwards (creeking, popping noises). We did have the "Oil Jet Kit" installed at around 60k but like my dad, we always maintained the thing and changed the tranny fluid every 30k miles.

I've known dozens of people who have had V6 Hondas and none of them ever mentioned transmission replacements on theirs either...

keystonecarfan

isellhondas: Sorry but that is porbably the worst "information" I have ever read in these forums and I've been around since the beginning.

Before branding a post the "worst information you've ever seen," I'd suggest that you brush up on your reading comprehension skills, which seem to be weak.

I didn't write that every single transmission failed on every single V-6 equipped Honda and Acura built between 1999 and 2005.

I wrote that all of those cars were plagued by a high rate of transmission failures, and it wasn't because people were abusing the vehicles. The transmission had a defect that caused premature failure. This is undeniable, and no amount of bobbing and weaving on your part will change that fact.

And Honda "stepped up to the plate" after a class-action lawsuit, if I recall correctly. That is what happened with my 2001 Prelude.

And don't brand me a Honda hater - I've owned Hondas since 1980, when I had a 1977 Civic CVCC hatchback. It was a great car.

dieselone

Bah, what's the use of having an expensive utility vehicle if you don't use it?

No dogs or kids, but the cup holders get frequent use and the back hauls garbage cans of compost and plywood.

I agree 100%. First off, my wife would tell me to go screw myself (but with far harsher language) if I told her she couldn't eat or drink in the car while on one of our numerous trips.

We travel a lot in my Expedition. This week alone, We've driven to Chicago (300 mile round trip), northern Indiana (300 mile round trip), then tomorrow we're going to Indianapolis which will be another 300 mile round trip. Plus in the summer most weekends we drive to the lake which is about 60 miles away. Particularly on Fridays after work we're in a hurry to get down there, so we'll definitely eat and/or drink in the car.

But that's why I drive an Expedition vs. a Mercedes GL. I generally don't care what happens to it. A lady opened her door into to it about a week ago right in front of me. Put a noticable ding in my drivers door. I could tell she felt awful and her husband was giving her an earful. I told her not to worry about it and have a nice day, I could tell she had to put up with one jerk, she didn't need to put up with two;) I'm not going to throw a fit about a door ding on a 5 year old Ford with 115k miles on it.

Plus I've been on the opposite side of that type of thing. About 5 years ago we were at an amusement park with our kids and our friends and their kids. We had 8 people in our old Suburban. We pull into our parking space right next to another family inside their minivan. I told the kids to not open the door, well as soon as I said that, my 5 year old opened the rear door right into the minivan. Put a dent and went through the paint:( Well I got out and immediately talked to driver of the minivan and he said what I would have. "Don't worry about it, we know what it's like with kids." I tried to give him my info, but he wouldn't take it.

uplanderguy

Door dings drive me nuts...even on my Cobalt.

I'm extremely careful about it, and my wife is too and I've taught my kids that too.

Still, people will open their doors right into you, while you're sitting in the car, and give you a 'mouth breather' look.

It's not rocket science!

ateixeira

That's one advantage of sliding doors. You need almost no space and never create door dings.

Minivan comparisons should involve some sort of food fight inside, then see which one cleans up best.

The criteria sure do change, though. I picked the one with 8 great seats. Adult sized.

dieselone

Door dings drive me nuts...even on my Cobalt.

I constantly remind my kids to be careful opening their doors. I usually will try to find a parking spot where I'll have an open space on both sides. But sometimes it's not possible and usually someone will be parked next to us when we return to the car.

With my 10 year old, I'll open the door for her and keep my hand on the outside of the door. With kids, it's almost impossible to keep it from happening. That is the beauty of minivans and their sliding doors.

With my Expedition I really don't care. With the service it's given me so far and the miles it has, it's not worth being overly anal about. Hell, I haven't washed it in a few months and I haven't waxed it in probably 2 years. I'll keep it a while longer and likely find another used SUV to abuse.

dieselone

Minivan comparisons should involve some sort of food fight inside, then see which one cleans up best.

They should make them so you can just use a power washer to clean them out;)

I've found things under the seats of the Expedition that the dog won't even eat;) I think the next great antibiotic is growing in there somewhere;)

isellhondas

Oh, I read just fine, thank you.

You really need to re-read your post instead of backtracking now.

I agreed that the failure rate was much higher than normal for Honda.

I also mentioned that a lot of minivans are subjected to a hard life.

dieselone

I also mentioned that a lot of minivans are subjected to a hard life.

I don't doubt that. I notice when I drop or pickup either of my daughters from their elementary and junior high, minivans are still very popular with parents of school age kids. This morning while I was in the drop off line I'd say it was close to a 50/50 mix of minivans to SUVs. Sedans were in the minority.

I wonder what the minivan market share is for those with school age kids? Having owned one minivan, I will say it's by far the best family vehicle in terms of room, comfort, and utility. I only have a big SUV for towing capacity.

ateixeira

We eat in ours, take trips, the dog, carpools, doors open and close more often since we drop off and pick up.

Generally speaking a *lot* more wear and tear, and usually a heavier payload as well.

Having said that, you order a tow hitch on an Ody and they add an oil cooler and a power steering cooler, maybe those things should have been standard?

In 2007 the tow package was standard on my Sienna. In 2008 it became an extra-cost option, but every van on the lot still had it when I looked.

I'm not sure how Toyota equips them now, haven't looked.

I think as a minivan buyer you should opt for all the HD packages because that is simply how they are used.

andre1969

This morning while I was in the drop off line I'd say it was close to a 50/50 mix of minivans to SUVs. Sedans were in the minority.

It's amazing how times have changed. When I was in 8th grade (1983-84) I went to a private school, and the bus didn't go out our way, so some of the families formed a car pool. There were five families in it, with 8 kids total, ranging from 2nd grade to 8th. The various vehicles used were:

1982 or so Buick Electra Estate wagon with a Diesel
1976-ish Aspen wagon that was kind of beat
1978-ish Volare wagon that was in pretty good shape
early 80's Electra coupe or Riviera coupe (they'd switch up from time to time, and these days, I'm shocked that we could get 8 kids plus the driver in a Riviera!)
1976 GMC crew cab and, sometimes, 1982 Malibu wagon: that was my Granddad. Mom, stepdad, and Grandmom all worked, but Granddad was retired, so the carpool gave him something to do. Occasionally he'd drive the Malibu if Grandmom was off that day, but usually it was the pickup.

So, back then, 4 of the 5 families in that carpool had a wagon. And today, those "true" wagons are pretty much extinct.

In retrospect, most minivans or even SUVs are probably better suited to hauling a bunch of people than those old wagons were. The Malibu and Aspen/Volare didn't even have a third row seat...we'd just pile kids in the cargo area! And nowadays, with seat belt and child seat laws, I can't imagine piling that many kids in most vehicles.

gagrice

There were five families in it, with 8 kids total, ranging from 2nd grade to 8th. The various vehicles used were:

When we were kids it was in the PU bed with all of us. When I got my 47 Pontiac convertible we would see how many High Schoolers I could haul from school into town. !7 was my record. Not sure how we all survived without the car seats, laws and seat belts we have today.

gagrice

I'm extremely careful about it, and my wife is too and I've taught my kids that too.

I don't worry about the outside as much as the inside. My wife is better than I am on keeping a clean car. Her 90 Lexus LS400 bought new in 1989 still looks like new inside and out. Our 2007 Sequoia with 30k miles looks exactly as it did the day we drove it off the lot. Both are always garaged. The Sequoia is only used on trips. I try to avoid parking close to heathens that have no regard for other people's property. Parking between two clean shiny cars is usually the safest bet.

roadburner

Door dings drive me nuts...even on my Cobalt.

Me too, and usually it is due to just carelessness or stupidity at work- it's rarely an "accident". I usually just park as far away from any other cars as I possibly can. Unless I'm in my Wrangler; if some bozo flings a door into it the side steps will hurt the errant door rather than vice versa...

dieselone

So, back then, 4 of the 5 families in that carpool had a wagon. And today, those "true" wagons are pretty much extinct.

In retrospect, most minivans or even SUVs are probably better suited to hauling a bunch of people than those old wagons were. The Malibu and Aspen/Volare didn't even have a third row seat...we'd just pile kids in the cargo area! And nowadays, with seat belt and child seat laws, I can't imagine piling that many kids in most vehicles.

Yeah, night and day difference than 30 years ago. My dad had a Caprice Classic wagon when i was elementary through jr. high age.

A minivan is a far better family vehicle than a full-size wagon. They are much easier to get in and out. Seat belt and car seat laws were a definite game changer. I never wore a seat belt until the laws were in place in Indiana when I turned 16 or 17.

Car seats are a major PITA. If you have 3 kids in car seats, there are few vehicles that can properly handle 3 car seats, you'll need a 3 row SUV or minivan. Even if the oldest were to be out of a car seat, you're likely not going to fit 3 kids in the back of a car or small SUV if 2 of them require car seats.

My sister is expecting her 3rd child and their oldest just turned 4. They'll have 3 kids in car seats. Glad it's her and not me. It was bad enough trying to get two kids properly buckled in. The day my youngest was able to ditch a booster seat was like new found freedom;)

roadburner

I don't worry about the outside as much as the inside. My wife is better than I am on keeping a clean car.

When we bought our CPO X3 it was one year old and had 16,000 miles on it. The rear of the console was covered with gouges and scrapes, obviously caused by unsupervised brats. BMW was good enough to replace the console under warranty. The X3 is now eight years old and has 140,000 miles on it; the console still looks brand new- even though it has hauled my son and his friends to countless school/sports events and several vacations.

dieselone

Me too, and usually it is due to just carelessness or stupidity at work- it's rarely an "accident".

I worked in retail many years and my wife has worked in retail for almost 25 years. There is essentially no safe place to park in a retail parking lot to avoid dings. My wife's company cars which spend a lot of time in such parking lots get beat to hell.

Seems the worst are rear doors which arch over the wheel well like my Expedition. The upper part of the door at handle height is just a killer for door dings with the way it protrudes out when you open the door. You'd have to have a running boards or fender flares that stick out over a foot to block the rear doors on my Expedition.

dieselone

My wife is better than I am on keeping a clean car.

Mine is too. She makes sure we always ride in my vehicle;) That's the best way to keep the inside of a car clean, keep the kids out.

Plus her Taurus has a tan cloth interior. It's impossible to keep clean. My Expedition is black with black and tan leather seats. Much easier to keep clean on the inside anyway. I couldn't imagine having light tan cloth seats in my Expedition. It would look awful all the time. It's hard enough to keep respectably clean as it is.

keystonecarfan

isellhondas: Oh, I read just fine, thank you.

You really need to re-read your post instead of backtracking now.

Please show me what, exactly, was inaccurate about that particular post.

isellhondas: I agreed that the failure rate was much higher than normal for Honda.

The failure rate was higher than normal, period. Not just for Hondas and Acuras.

As I've said, I've owned and driven Hondas for over 30 years, so I'm hardly a Honda hater. The bottom line is that these transmission failures marred the otherwise great record of this company.

Minimizing it, or blaming the customers (even in a backhanded way), didn't work too well for the Big Three, and won't ultimately work for any other company, including Honda. Those of us who care about this company don't want to see it go down that path.

And if the abuse of minivans is that common, it would seem to me that a smart company takes that into account. It's not as though the American driver has a great record when it comes to vehicle treatment and maintenance.

busiris

When we were kids it was in the PU bed with all of us. When I got my 47 Pontiac convertible we would see how many High Schoolers I could haul from school into town. !7 was my record. Not sure how we all survived without the car seats, laws and seat belts we have today.

Here, here!

I remember as a kid when we got our first car... The only Ford car my dad ever owned. Up to that point, my folks and older brother all rode in my day's pickup, which was also his work vehicle.

You can guess who rode in the cab, and who rode in the bed. Back in those days, on pickups, even the passenger sun visor or arm rest was optional.... And neither were on my dad's PU.

Later, as a teenager, we would grab some parent's work truck, throw an old used couch in the bed, fix up a cooler full of "refreshments" and head out to the all-night Saturday night drive-in movies... Park sideways, hang 2 speakers on the side of the bed and watch crappy movies with "stereophonic" sound...LOL!

dieselone

You can guess who rode in the cab, and who rode in the bed. Back in those days, on pickups, even the passenger sun visor or arm rest was optional.... And neither were on my dad's PU.

It's amazing any of us are still alive today;)

andre1969

When we were kids it was in the PU bed with all of us.

Sometimes on nice days, Granddad would let us ride in the bed of the truck on the way to and from school.

It was kind of a snooty school for the most part, so there was a little extra satisfaction seeing the jealous looks on the faces of some of these other kids, riding up in their Caddies, Lincolns, and Benzes, because we go to have fun riding in the back of a pickup truck and they didn't. Meanwhile, their parents often rolled their eyes at us, looking at us like we were the Walton kids or something.

I'd imagine riding in the back of a truck would be a major no-no these days. The last time I did it was about 8 years ago. One of my friends and I took my aging golden retriever for a walk (well, by that time she was my grandmother's). About a mile and a half from the house, the dog's hind leg gave out and she couldn't walk. So I ran back to the house, got my truck, drove back out, and put the dog in the back of the truck and rode back with her, while my friend drove.

isellhondas

There was a serious problem with complete transmission failure in all V-6 equipped Hondas and Acuras built between 1999 and 2004. Honda Odysseys and Acura TLs were the worst, probably because they put the most strain on the transmission.

These were the words you printed yesterday.

You didn't say " a lot of them" you said ALL of them.

I agreed with the fact that failure rates were, indeed, much (I even said much)
higher than normal for Honda.

And I didn't place all of the blame on the customers but let me rephrase what I meant lest you misunderstand me.

A typical five year old traded in Odyssey TYPICALLY is much rougher condition that say a five year old Civic or Accord.

I never said you were a Honda Hater. I just took exception to your statement that they ALL failed.

And since I pushed the retirement button two years ago, I hardlyu have a dog in this fight.

gagrice

I'd imagine riding in the back of a truck would be a major no-no these days.

Oh, big time nono. The only place I have seen people in the back of a PU truck the last few years was crossing the Navajo reservation in AZ. They don't have no stinking silly laws like us poor white schmucks.

fintail

1966 Galaxie 2 door HT - 8 teenagers. Don't ask how I know. The 60 Ford my dad had at the same time could easily fit 4 across too, and not too uncomfortably. Now THOSE are "American" cars :shades:

andre1969

You didn't say " a lot of them" you said ALL of them.

I don't think that's what he meant to say, although I guess it could be heard that way. Does this edit sound any better?

There was a serious problem with complete transmission failure in all V-6 equipped Honda s and Acura s models built between 1999 and 2004. Honda Odysseys and Acura TLs were the worst, probably because they put the most strain on the transmission.

Just today, on the tv I heard an announcer say "Want to save money every month, then refinance your mortgage!" My first thought was hell, if you refinance your mortgage every month, closing costs are gonna kill you!

And since I pushed the retirement button two years ago, I hardlyu have a dog in this fight.

Wow, has it been TWO years already? Time flies when you're having fun, I guess!

lemko

I guess one could still ride in the bed of a Subaru BRAT nowadays, (remember those?)

fintail

My generation (born mid-late 70s) might have been the last to have been able to experience regular truck bed trips. I haven't done it since I was in high school (I think), but remember it fondly.

lemko

I once had ten people squeezed into my 1975 Cadillac Sedan DeVille!