Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

1322323325327328382

Comments

  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Chevrolet and GMC briefly offered it on trucks in the 2000s.

    Quadrasteer was a good idea and certainly was a useful. The only real drawback being that it was to expensive and not many wanted it. IIRC it was a $4k option. The few I've talked to that have or have had a Quadrasteer equipped truck liked it.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    There was a time shortly after the Sierra C3 (I think that was the model with 4WS?) arrived that Nissan was talking about adopting the technology for it's own Titan and Armada trucks but it never materialized, probably due to cost, as you mentioned.

    The thing about the Sierra that was neat was it only worked up until something like 18MPH or so, then it basically "locked" into position and became a normal steering truck. But the recommended intervals to maintain the system were every 15k miles and expensive from what I remember.

    I've read that GM hasn't abandoned the system, but are waiting for the costs to come down to make it more accessible $$$-wise.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    The thing about the Sierra that was neat was it only worked up until something like 18MPH or so

    IIRC, the rear wheels turned opposite the rear wheels at slow speeds and in the same direction at higher speeds and I think the user had the option to deactivate completely.

    But yeah, cost was a big problem.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    IIRC, the rear wheels turned opposite the rear wheels at slow speeds and in the same direction at higher speeds and I think the user had the option to deactivate completely.

    Oh ya, that was it! Your memory is way better than mine. I admit, I'm not much of a truck buyer either. :D
  • keystonecarfankeystonecarfan Member Posts: 181
    The 1980s Corvettes were terrible in that regard. So were the 1980s F-bodies. The C-4s from 1991 and up are supposedly much better.
  • keystonecarfankeystonecarfan Member Posts: 181
    The HT4100...Lincoln should have one enshrined at corporate headquarters, as it helped sell thousands of Town Cars in the 1980s.
  • keystonecarfankeystonecarfan Member Posts: 181
    edited January 2013
    The problem was that, during 1979-80, when these decisions were being made, everyone expected gasoline to be selling for $3 a gallon by 1985. GM was selling every X-car it could make. People were clamoring for Honda Accords and Civics to the point that the dealer did you a favor if he sold it to you for the sticker price and didn't require a $400 wax job (in 1980 dollars) as part of the sale.

    I remember reading that, adjusted for inflation, gasoline prices hit a record high in early 1981 that wasn't surpassed until 2008. It wasn't just the Sierra Club worried about gas mileage at that time. Hence, the decision to offer the HT4100 in all Cadillacs, even though it really was too small to adequately power the car. But, with everyone worried about gas mileage, and the national speed limit set at 55 mph, performance wasn't thought to be a priority.

    If gasoline had hit $3 a gallon by 1985, everyone would have hailed the front-wheel-drive Cadillac DeVilles and downsized 1986 Eldorados and Sevilles as the perfect response. The old rear-while-drive DeVille/Fleetwood would have probably been phased out by 1986.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I've read that GM hasn't abandoned the system, but are waiting for the costs to come down to make it more accessible $$$-wise.

    It may get a lot cheaper when China buys GM outright and makes all the vehicles over there. :sick:

    Maybe Apple will diversify and get into making Cars. They could buy GM outright for cash and still have enough cash to buy Ford and Chrysler/Fiat.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Sorry, I'm not buying a car that only runs on Apple gas and Apple oil.

    GM is bad enough with their Dexos requirements.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I think the 4WS Preludes were more of a gimmick on Honda's part than anything else. I understand they added something like 2000.00 to the price at that time.

    One of the car magazines did a comparision at the time and the 4WS didn't do any better on the track than the regular Preludes.

    They were STRANGE to park and the guys who drove the car haulers just HATED them. If they weren't ultra careful they could drive them off the rails.

    And I hear they were a handful in the snow.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Well the Chinese supply 80% of the Apple Juice consumed in this country.

    I like buying American. I just don't see GM as a good option. They are being run too much like the state of CA for my tastes. They are losing ground on the UAW pension plan again. Same old crap that bankrupted them before. A vehicle from a solvent company built in the USA is my first choice.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited January 2013
    Funny you mention Apple.

    Their stock dropped significantly yesterday due to a slowing of project growth in the next quarter, IIRC, down to only 7%.

    I can't help but wonder how many companies would kill to get a 7% quartly growth rate.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Apple is a company to be envied on many levels. The stock seems to be in free fall over the last earnings. With $137 billion in cash they can probably buy back a lot of stock if it keeps falling.

    I don't think they are interested in buying an automaker with all the headaches and small margins. They probably made more net profit on iPhone sales alone than all the car companies combined.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    edited January 2013
    be Ford, gagrice?

    I like buying American. I just don't see GM as a good option. They are being run too much like the state of CA for my tastes. They are losing ground on the UAW pension plan again. Same old crap that bankrupted them before. A vehicle from a solvent company built in the USA is my first choice.

    I see that Dodge is setting up a "fund" you can set up if you're getting married that accepts money into an account to buy a new Dodge Dart. This can be from friends and family...the upgraded interior can be a gift from your best man, the fancy steering wheel a gift from your sister, etc. Man, what a car company will do to sell a car these days. :D

    http://www.autoblog.com/2013/01/23/dodge-dart-registry-helps-you-crowdsource-mon- - ey-for-your-next-ri/

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Isn't everything they sell Made in China, though?

    At least they manage good quality control.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    With all the smog and air pollution in the major cities, it may be getting more difficult for QA because they won't be able to see. According to NBC News last night, there was a raging fire that went 3 hours before being reported because no one noticed it...

    Now, that's what I call air pollution...
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    edited January 2013
    With all the smog and air pollution in the major cities, it may be getting more difficult for QA because they won't be able to see. According to NBC News last night, there was a raging fire that went 3 hours before being reported because no one noticed it...

    I see China as being a lot like my teenage son. Contrary to what some other posters have said here, China can know the US has environmental controls, and hear that they should do something, but it takes actual *experience* to develop the desire to do something about it. I'm sure they will clean themselves up, it's just going to take some time for it to get important enough to do, and then apply all the remediation which is a big job.

    My son is very bright and we can tell him about pitfalls of various things, but he's the type who has to burn his finger in the fire to really believe that's a dangerous thing to do. Telling him stuff is not enough motivation for him! He learns by doing, not by being told..... :cry:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,525
    China could also be coerced into implementing responsible standards via simple economic measures (aka if you want to play on our playground, play by our rules) - they wouldn't even have to buy the tech, they could just steal the IP like they do in so many other arenas. However, that would slow the flow of distracting cheap junk, so it won't happen. You don't need experience to take a desired course, sometimes heavy pressure will do it. I can't say I believe the current corrupt (to a level that makes the US look like a fair game) system in China will actually clean up its act, not until after a lot of bloodshed anyway. Amazing how some still rush to defend it via excusing it all away.
  • keystonecarfankeystonecarfan Member Posts: 181
    Doesn't that describe 99 percent of all teenagers? I'd be more shocked if you told me that he always takes your word for it, and carefully follows your advice!

    I thought China was taking steps to curb pollution. Hasn't it taken steps to seriously restrict driving in the biggest cities?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    play by our rules

    And when they don't they should be paying import duties equivalent to what it would cost to do so.

    Gotta eliminate the incentives to "cheat".
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,525
    It's really about that simple - pseudo-"capitalists" abhor such ideas though. Our one way street of free trade.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Would you like to buy some toys with lead-based paint for your kids? :sick:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,525
    Nah, I want some poisoned pet food, and a copycar.

    But hey, cheap stuff masks declining real incomes, that keeps things stable, so it must be worth it. The ruse can continue forever, right?
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited January 2013
    I agree with others... While my kids had to touch the red-hot burner on occasion as well, I'd guess that could be said of our generation as well.

    It sure was of previous generations, just look at the 2 world wars they fought.

    You'd think we, as a worldwide population, would have learned by now.

    Regarding China, I think learning how to deal with pollution is an evolutionary process, one in which we just are farther (or further, which is it?) down the road.

    I remember Love Canal, which had a huge impact on how the public changed its views on domestic pollution. In turn, manufacturers began moving dirty manufacturing off-shore, because it solved the problem of pollution for them... For a while...

    China has a billion people, which can be a huge negative for the ruling class when/if a significant portion determines it doesn't want China to be a trash dump any longer.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    China could also be coerced into implementing responsible standards via simple economic measures (aka if you want to play on our playground, play by our rules) - they wouldn't even have to buy the tech, they could just steal the IP like they do in so many other arenas.

    Yes, but that assumes the US government would actually do that, which is another whole different set of problems.

    You don't need experience to take a desired course, sometimes heavy pressure will do it.

    ...and sometimes not. Sometimes the more pressure there is, the more somebody/thing digs in and resists. Like my son. Or like my wife and I when her parents didn't want her dating me (too long of a story). It didn't work AT ALL. China will figure it out, but the US dictating to them is not likely to make them move. Loss of face alone would kill it unless the US demonstrated much more subtlety in foreign affairs than we've been able to do in the last decade. ;)

    Amazing how some still rush to defend it via excusing it all away.

    I don't excuse them, I'm just being pragmatic. Bullying doesn't usually work.

    Aren't they nice for financing our wild overspending habit?
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    The ruse can continue forever, right?

    Nothing is forever - not China, US supremacy, GM, or cheap gas.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    There weren't many at all...anythime we would drive next to another Prelude on the road, we would look for the "4WS" on the pillar, and it was rare to see it...

    Advantages: parallel parking was a breeze, and going around corners seemed like the rear end was (pardon the expression) right behind you...the car just seemed to glide around corners, as the front wheels turned right, the rear wheels first turned right and then crossed over to the left so the car was like a long fire engine when the rear wheels turned...

    If you just slightly turned the front wheels, say to the left, as in lane changing on the freeway, both front and rear wheels turned in the same direction, so theoretically you changed lanes "faster" but that part was almost unnoticeable...

    Most rounding corners are parallel parking backwards, the car seemed to go where you pointed it much easier than a standard vehicle...

    Disadvantages: absolutely none, there was no downside to 4WS...

    It did add about $1,200.00 to the price of the car, which, in 1988, stickered at $21,500.00 if my memory serves...the car was cloth interior (all navy blue, inside and out, beautiful car) and we added another $1,000.00 when it was shipped over to a Corvette custom shop for some REALLY nice leather interior...that driver's seat gripped your sides and held you in like a race car...

    Since it was my 3rd Honda from the same dealer (and same salesman) we bought the car for $18,000.00 plus tax, tag and title...

    Truly the best car we ever owned, and 28-30 mpg when nobody cared about the price of gas...
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    I gotta tell ya, after responding just before, to us there was no gimmick, esp when going around turns...and I am sure the option was $1,200.00, which may have been high in 1988...if they had trouble unloading them, I simply cannot see why...and it was no different in snow (ours was in Detroit) than any other front wheel drive vehicle...

    If you were pointed straight ahead, the 4WS was not "engaged" so it was just a FWD car, and the turning of the rear wheels was no problem, at least for these two people who knew how to drive in the snow...:):):)
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I agree.

    And, before we get too far up on our high horse, take a look at the air pollution currently in Salt Lake City. Breathing the air there today is the equivalent of smoking.

    It could be argued that the cold air inversion causing it is a weather anomaly, but it does occur frequently there. If I were a Chinese official being criticized by some US official for the Chinese air quality, I'd most likely bring up Salt Lake City.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    ...parallel parking was a breeze...

    Hasn't the "self-parking" function offered in so many new models today eliminated that advantage?
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Or like my wife and I when her parents didn't want her dating me (too long of a story). It didn't work AT ALL.

    I have to ask... How'd that work out for your wife?

    You left yourself wide open... LOL!
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    Our car had no wing on the back trunk, so the car did not look dorky, it was really smooth...

    The 4WS took no maintenance, except the dealer checked fluid as required...back then, NOBODY could work on a Honda competently, except Honda, and we took it back to the dealer for service every 3000 miles (oil change & filter, only dino oil back then, no synthetic like now) and they checked whatever they had to check...no problem with 4WS of ANY kind in 13 years and 185K miles...

    When the steering wheel was turned slightly, as in lane changing, the rear wheels also turned slightly in the same direction...at some point, as the steering wheel continued to turn, like in rounding a corner, the rear wheels CROSSED BACK OVER and pointed in the opposite direction...it was interesting to watch what the wheels did as you could turn them while sitting still and watch the wheels cross over...

    One other thing...From Detroit to Atlanta, I dealt with 3 different Honda dealers, and they all seemed honest and competent...there were some repairs that they could have charged me hundreds of $$$, but they found something simple and hardly charged me at all...

    One thing common to all 3 dealers...the owners manual states clearly to change the timing belt at 60K miles (and the water pump as a preventive measure as you are looking right at it when you pull the timing cover)...all 3 service departments told me you could go 75K on the belt before changing it, BUT NOT A MILE OVER 75K...they said if you hit 80K, the belt was sure to break and pistons would strike valves and destroy the engine...

    Mine were changed at 75K and 150K...when they took off the valve covers at 150K, I saw the true value of changing oil every 3000 miles (remember, dino oil back then)...my valve springs were as clean as the day they were new, not one drop of grease or clump of anything on the springs...simply looked like a new engine...made all those oil changes worth it, almost 50 oil changes in 150K miles...

    isellhondas: I am amazed at the number of folks who called it a gimmick (4WS), including car mags, because we truly felt the car drove better around turns, and, of course, there was no effect when driving straight...
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited January 2013
    One thing common to all 3 dealers...the owners manual states clearly to change the timing belt at 60K miles (and the water pump as a preventive measure as you are looking right at it when you pull the timing cover)...all 3 service departments told me you could go 75K on the belt before changing it, BUT NOT A MILE OVER 75K...they said if you hit 80K, the belt was sure to break and pistons would strike valves and destroy the engine...

    I had a coworker back then whose wife that owned a beautiful red Prelude and didn't read the manual and also didn't change the belt. Well, she did change it, eventually... After it broke.

    It made a big mess...
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,956
    You mean you have to read the manual to properly operate your vehicle? Heavens forbid!

    My oh my this country is in trouble when you need large yellow and red painted stickers all over your visors because no one reads their manual!
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Owning a couple of BMW's I visit a couple of BMW-specific forums quite often.

    I'm often amazed at some of the most simple, basic questions some owners ask that would clearly be answered in the manual.

    Once, I responded to a poster by telling him the exact page in the owner's manual where he could find the answer.

    He responded in a most negative way, stating that if he was interested in looking it up in the manual, he would have already done so.

    I rarely respond to questions nowadays because that attitude has become so pervasive on forums...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,525
    Oh, we both know the US government wouldn't do that, it would interfere with our market oligarchy pretending to be capitalism.

    If China is excluded from first world markets on demands of cleaning up its act, it might actually jump into the late 20th century and behave responsibly. It not that China lacks the talent to do so, but maybe the maturity. And internal people won't make it happen - raise your voice too much there, and you go away.

    I'd think those who support slimy tax dodger havens would love the American spending binge - for the policeman of the world creates the conditions which allows those havens to thrive. We subsidize the competition, who then spits on us. Wonderful.

    The spending is also funny, at worst, it is mutually assured destruction. IMO, they need us more than we need them. If you owe the bank a thousand dollars, that's your problem. If you owe the bank a billion dollars, that's the bank's problem.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I have to ask... How'd that work out for your wife?

    You left yourself wide open... LOL!


    Oh, they eventually came around. It was a religious "mismatch". They ended up liking me much better than my wife's brother's choice of spouse, even though they did match on religion. Just goes to show you that its the person, not the faith, that makes the difference.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    The spending is also funny, at worst, it is mutually assured destruction. IMO, they need us more than we need them. If you owe the bank a thousand dollars, that's your problem. If you owe the bank a billion dollars, that's the bank's problem.

    Yes, with China it's economic MAD in addition to military MAD. They can't have us collapsing because we owe them too much money, and we can't have them collapsing or we wouldn't be able to make half the stuff we need.

    I wonder how many Chinese parts are in our cars these days? Other than the GM China engines, I don't think large assemblies have ever been Chinese. But I'm sure stuff like electronics are from China in our cars. Perhaps small plastic parts and stuff, too.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,525
    We could make virtually all we need, just not at prices that mask declining standards. Change a few regulations too, and voila - no problem. And it still wouldn't be the environmental disaster of our most favored "partner" (ironic quotes).

    The car parts probably depend on where the car is sourced.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    The car parts probably depend on where the car is sourced.

    Well it seems ironic that AFAIK the only large parts that have been Chinese in US-sold cars have been from GM (Chinese engines) - the bailed out US company that all of the patriotic types want to buy because they're helping 'merica! :surprise:

    At least the management is in the US. ;)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    We could make virtually all we need, just not at prices that mask declining standards.

    Not even close. If it takes 250,000 people working 16 hours a day to produce iPhones, we would need a factory with 500,000 people working 8 hours a day. Then you have clothes, shoes and thousand other electronic gadgets. They probably have a workforce bigger than our total population supplying us Stuff. We have never been a great producer of consumer electronics and never will be. Over 30% of our military electronics with no concern for price are made offshore. Do they contain elements that are not approved by the EPA???

    China thinks first of the people having a job and balance that with ecological concerns. They are building 1 out of every four coal fired electric plants to be clean coal. We are smarter than the Chinese. We buy wind generators and Solar panels from them to supply our electricity. We don't have the natural resources needed to build our own wind generators. The Greenies shut mining down decades ago. With the help of Clinton.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,525
    Maybe my caveat was unclear, I said "not at prices", and "need", which seems to have been confused with want. Factor those in with the regulations I mentioned, and it wouldn't be so tough. We'd need to suck it up a little, and to maybe feel some pains, but in the long run, it might be better. Of course, the corporate oligarchs who control national policy are immune from long term thought.

    China thinks first of rewarding well connected cronies and party members, and does not try to balance anything with social or environmental issues. It's a kleptocracy. A 25% clean rate on new power plants is nothing to be proud of. Our untouchable top few who really select our leadership and make the rules buy those energy inputs you mention.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,525
    Also ironic that said company is one of the most successful automakers in our most favored "partner", I guess.

    Once management reaches enough gold, they probably hide it in sleazy tax havens :shades:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Our untouchable top few who really select our leadership and make the rules buy those energy inputs you mention.

    I really think the point you miss is those oligarchs that buy the politicians also take the road of least resistance. You got a bunch of eco nuts laying in front of a caterpillar ready to start a project, you say screw it. The environmentalists have run off as many jobs as the greedy multinationals. The middle class working man is screwed from both sides.

    As far as making stuff. We don't have the materials and or expertise. We are pretty much limited to flipping burgers and making tacos now. Of course that is a bit simplistic. We are not the manufacturing juggernaut we once were, and likely never will be again. It takes a different sort of worker to assemble an iPhone than a D10 caterpillar. Heck Boeing can't even build a safe plane anymore. What's up with that???
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited January 2013
    Heck Boeing can't even build a safe plane anymore. What's up with that???

    There was an opinion piece in yesterday's on-line USA Today on that very subject.

    In order to speed up the construction and delivery timetable, Boeing outsourced well over 50% of the 787 rather than keeping it all "in house" and under direct control, much different than planes developed by them in the past.

    Time frames were reduced significantly, but so was quality.

    The phrase " too many fingers in the pie" comes to mind...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,525
    edited January 2013
    And that path of least resistance needs to be blocked. The lie of free trade needs to become fair trade. Labor costs are as much of the story as onerous regulations. Everywhere isn't like California, but traitors who run offshore are everywhere.

    What expertise is needed to assemble poisoned toys or iphones? These aren't people with PhDs in engineering or physics screwing together knicknacks in sweatshops, so a chosen few can buy their way into the west and flit around in supercars. With virtually no work, the materials and expertise can be had here.

    As was said about Boeing, their troubles aren't all in-sourced. Speed and cost concerns (and seeing that their competitor is wildly subsidized) can create issues - sometimes you have to be penny wise and pound foolish to meet demands. Boeing's problem also has nothing to do with final assembly.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I never drove a 4WS Prelude in the snow as you did but I heard from several people that they didn't do well at all.

    I have driven a couple and found them "interesting" to drive and I wouldn't shy away from owning one. Still, for 1200.00 most people couldn't justify spending the money and the dealers didn't keep many in stock.

    They slowly died off and the car mags pounded the nails into the coffin.

    I would love to find a 1991 SI Prelude 4WS or not!
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,934
    I had a coworker who had an '82 and I think an '85 Prelude, both bought new. I was not impressed with either, but especially with the '82. It is absolutely the first car I ever saw where the driver's seat back was actually touching the bottom of the rear seat cushion...and the driver wasn't even a tall guy (probably my height, 5'8" or so). To be fair, I never drove either, only rode to lunch in them a bunch of times. The styling details didn't do a thing for me...small things, but like where the radio antenna was and that the mirror hung off of a stalk from the ceiling of the car. Hideaway headlights I was never a fan of either.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    With virtually no work, the materials and expertise can be had here.

    If that was true, why are there 3 million unfilled jobs in the USA today? And Foxconn has 15,000 engineers on staff. And regulations are a big thing. If not why can't we build CFL bulbs in the USA? I think your World view is somewhat skewed to thinking the US is a great place to do business. That our workforce is something special. I can tell you it is not easy finding people willing to work hard. Lot of people around here want to get paid. They are not willing to give an honest day's work for a day's pay. It is easier to just do it myself than follow someone around showing them what a weed looks like.

    Everywhere isn't like California, but traitors who run offshore are everywhere.

    Again you have a very narrow view of the reality businesses face all over the World. If Samsung sells a smartphone for $299, the competition better do the same or lose out. I don't think building a smartphone in the USA is even possible. We do NOT have the raw materials needed. We do not have the expertise and the workforce willing to sit and work. Are any smartphones built in Germany or the other EU countries? Nokia once the cell phone sales leader. Is now in 4th place. Can you imagine what a $700 smartphone made by UAW workers would cost? :sick:

    I don't imagine we will see a Smartphone made in the USA in our lifetime. We are lucky to be making cars still.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    edited January 2013
    Labor costs are as much of the story as onerous regulations.

    ...and onerous taxes. ;) :P

    ...but traitors who run offshore are everywhere.

    Why do you think there are so many of them? It's because the rules of the game drive them in that direction. Sort of like you want to buy houses in Monopoly. If we don't like the behavior, change the rules. Don't castigate the players for buying houses when the rules pretty much demand it. For today's rules (and laws), you are pretty much a failure if you don't do this.

    I don't get how you blame the people when that's not the root cause of the problem.
Sign In or Register to comment.

Your Privacy

By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our Visitor Agreement.