Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

dieselone

I think it's hard to read through many of the studies which tie bankruptcy to medical costs.

Many in the media reported the Harvard study which found linked nearly 1/2 of all bankruptcies to medical bills. The reality was 28% or so of all bankruptcies (reported to the study) claimed $1000 or more of medical bills, 27% listed lost wages of 2 weeks or more, and the harvard study included addictions including uncontrolled gambling. I don't think insurance plans government sponsored or not will cover gambling losses due to addiction, if so sign me up;)

Those stats don't mean much to me. If loosing 2 weeks of work and a few thousand dollars in bills send you to bankruptcy, then you have other problems.

That's not to say we don't have issues with health care among many other things. We do. But spewing statistics to support one's agenda doesn't solve anything.

Mr_Shiftright

yeah it's ironic. Here in the US you can get all kinds of miraculous interventions done, but in some of our states, the infant mortality rate is the same as Sri Lanka or Botswana. That's grim news.

As an interesting side note, I'm getting more and more inquiries (and I mean, a real JUMP in inquiries) from families wanting to dispose of dad's or grandpa's old car (more often than not a 70s whale) because the younger people want no part of the expense of keeping an old "toy" and dad is too old to drive anymore, or too sick.

I predict a HUGE glut in "classic cars" in the next 20 years.

uplanderguy

"And numerous Americans travel abroad to receive care, too. So private hospitals let foreign 1%ers buy their way in, yes. "

I can honestly say that I am not aware of a single American going to Europe or Mexico or Canada for medical care, although I have heard that some near the border get their prescriptions from Canada.

mcdawgg

"Actually, if you include last year's bonuses, Toyota's plant in kentucky paid MORE to its non union workers than the average UAW pay.

How much and to which workers? The full time or the part timers they have? Have you seen any data about the part time worker percentage at Georgetown? "

I'd like to see REAL data for the average % of part time workers, & temps at Georgetown for a year or more. Then, I'd like to see the average % of part time & temp factory workers in the US as a whole. Then, we can stop insinuating/guessing. My guess is TMMK will not be much different than the US as a whole.

Mr_Shiftright

Statistics are always tricky. For instance, life expectancy in the USA is rated pretty low compared to many other countries, but you know why? Homicides and poor diet! Otherwise we'd be near the top. Go figure. So it's not a "health" issue, it's an economic and social one most likely.

Seems to me that any country wishing to compete economically in world markets needs a very healthy and vigorous population.

dieselone

"For instance, life expectancy in the USA is rated pretty low compared to many other countries, but you know why? Homicides and poor diet!"

Add accidental deaths too.

robr2

I can honestly say that I am not aware of a single American going to Europe or Mexico or Canada for medical care, although I have heard that some near the border get their prescriptions from Canada.

Personally, neither have I but according to an article I read about 100,000 a year do it.

Google Medical Tourists and you'll find plenty of stories.

As for Canadian meds, is that still a thing? My parents and in-laws used to do it but since the Medicare started allowing seniors to get drug coverage, it's not such a big deal anymore.

dieselone

"As for Canadian meds, is that still a thing? My parents and in-laws used to do it but since the Medicare started allowing seniors to get drug coverage, it's not such a big deal anymore. "

It is for certain drugs. If you can utilize generic brands Canada is not any cheaper and is sometimes even more expensive. But overall it isn't a big issue like it was several years ago.

I had a triple hernia repair surgery last fall. I just looked up the bill.

The surgeon billed my insurance $37K, insurance paid $13k my co-pay was $1,300.

The hospital billed $12k, insurance paid $2,800, my portion was $551.

The anesthesiologist billed $1,800, insurance paid $1400, I paid $273.

So my out of pocket was basically $2,000 if you include prior office visits and prescriptions.

I don't know what it would have been for just a single hernia. Though it doesn't look like I got much of a volume discount..... Well maybe the anesthesia and hospital.

Anyway, no way would I travel abroad for that. I definitely wanted to be home to endure the pain while recouping. The first day or so after surgery was brutal.

fintail

Maybe it's a thing done by coastal people who hold passports. I know numerous people who have traveled for elective surgery and dental work.

I also don't know of any average working people from Europe or Canada who come to the US for anything but a vacation. The US is great for specialized care, but has become a black hole for ordinary care had by ordinary people. If the US is going to be competitive, it needs to compete with the costs and systems of competitors, not let the should-be-hanged members of the FIRE cabal dictate yet another policy.

fintail

Especially for malaise boats, there will be no market in the future. Like my friend who's older boomer father has a ~20K mile 78 Town Coupe. She doesn't want it, her mother wants her father to get rid of it, none of the family wants it, but the guy won't part with it even though he never drives it, and his health is iffy. It gets zero mpg, is hard to drive in the city, is probably finicky when cold, needs maintenance, and is just too much of a burden when young families are already spending more than they should for the "dream" of holding a mortgage. These cars will be worth less in 20 years today,even if we have inflation.

fintail

The fact remains, medical debt is more of a burden for Americans than it is for citizens of other supposed first world locales, and it isn't right.

When it comes to losing work and having a few grand in bills, that also points to issues with jobs and real incomes as much as personal problems, as the one trick pony MBA set still thinks offshoring and service jobs are the way of the future.

stever

Heard that a friend went to Tahiti for lap band surgery. something was lost in translation - he went to Tijuana. Scariest part was crossing the border with $3,000 in cash.

Shall we get back to cars everyone, or just close this and meet over at medhelp.org?

dieselone

Nissan announced it will offer a Cummins V8 turbo diesel in the redesigned titan. The engine will be built in indiana. Interesting.

ohenryx

I can honestly say that I am not aware of a single American going to Europe or Mexico or Canada for medical care, although I have heard that some near the border get their prescriptions from Canada.


Living here in Texas, close to Mexico, I have always been aware that some people travel to Mexico for cheap prescription drugs, and cheap dental work. In more recent times, I have heard of (mostly) women traveling there for cheap cosmetic surgery.

Did you ever watch Northern Exposure? The rich ex-astronaut bragged about traveling to Switzerland once a year to have all of his dental work done, and this was back in the early 90's.

ohenryx

Statistics are always tricky. For instance, life expectancy in the USA is rated pretty low compared to many other countries, but you know why? Homicides and poor diet! Otherwise we'd be near the top.

I won't argue with you about the poor diet, but I think you are way off the mark with the mention of homicides.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_causes_of_death_by_rate

The closest I can find to "homocide" is "violence", which is way down on the list at 0.98%. Suicide is higher, at 1.53%, and "road traffic accidents" are at 2.09%.

ohenryx

Nissan announced it will offer a Cummins V8 turbo diesel in the redesigned titan. The engine will be built in indiana. Interesting.

The Titan is a half ton truck, right? Direct competitor to the Ford F150, Silverado 1500, etc. Why would they need a V8 diesel? Seems to me that a 6 cylinder would be more than sufficient for a half ton truck.

Mr_Shiftright

I'll explain privately--we're too much off topic.

andre1969

Heck, it might be a great time for people like Lemko and me, who love those old boats!

But, even there, I admit that sometimes I get sick of driving around in something that gets single-digit fuel economy unless I take it on a good highway run, and it's probably a sad commentary that the majority of my driving is now done with a Ram Hemi, because it's more efficient!

And, I'm slowly starting to come around to something that Shifty has said for years...you can't save everything. I'll admit that there have been times I've thought about dumping my two R-bodies and replacing them with something smaller...like the '81 Imperial up the street that's been for sale for a good 6-7 months now!

But, I guess there are still some young people who appreciate these cars. There's a crème Mark V I see on occasion, and today it on the road and caught a glimpse of its driver...young guy who looked to be in his 20's. I'm sure he's driving something like that because he WANTS to, not because he HAS to!

But then, I think the Mark V, especially some of the designer editions, is one of the more desireable 70's loveboats out there.

Mr_Shiftright

I think if I'm right about the coming "glut" in old cars, then we should see prices starting to drop in this next decade. I'm sure the ultra-rare stuff won't drop very much because it's hard to have both a "glut" and "rarity" at the same time--but all the common cars will probably take a huge beating in value especially anything that is very large and gas hungry.

crkyolfrt

Interesting? Yes and no..No because a V is not as desirable as an inline and probably Ram has that (5.9) wrapped up through licensing. Nissan would be better off going for Cummins big 4 cyl instead. Still would put their gas hungry V8 to shame.

stever

Amazing, just pulled into camp near El Malpais and I thought sure I'd miss all the fun tonight. And yet I'm pulling in 4G LTE - guess we're close enough to Grant NM or a ranger station or something. So I've cleaned a few off-topic posts. :-)

Careful Ohenryx, or we'll be off on a "all diesels are turbos" divergence, lol.

Speaking of classics, I saw an old Dodge Matador in Silver City today. My Nissan is heading for classic status, even if the Ford built unit has (I think) a Japanese drivetrain. Ohio makes good stuff.

andre1969

Wow, that has to be a rare sight. They only built the Matador in 1960, and I think they only made around 25-30K of them. That year, Dodge did a reorganization, putting most of their effort into the new Dart lineup that replaced the old Coronet, but matched Plymouth model for model (even the ads compared the Dart to Chevy, Ford...and Plymouth!). The Dart was a smash hit, but the larger Dodges, the Matador and Polara, weren't very hot sellers. For 1961, the Matador was dropped, leaving just the Polara as the "Big", "Senior" Dodge.

Do you remember what body style that Matador was?

stever

Shoot, I knew I should have grabbed my camera (some guy was taking pics). I'll try to do an image search. Mostly I noticed the rust on the hood and roof.

k, looked a lot like this one.

andre1969

Just looked in my old car book...they built 27,908 Madators in 1960. It doesn't break it out by body style, but it was offered as a 4-door sedan, 2- and 4-door hardtops, convertible, and station wagon. More than likely, the 4-door was the most popular. Still, a fairly rare beast.

Can't remember the last time I saw one, with the exception of the mechanic who has my DeSoto who has a couple of them scattered about as parts cars. He also had a Polara hardtop wagon that was factory-equipped with a 361 Cross-Ram (dual quads)...essentially a musclecar station wagon!

Y'know, I wish I could get as excited about a new car, regardless of whether it's foreign or domestic, as I could about a sighting of a 53 year old Dodge!

dieselone

All I've read so far is it will be a 5.0L v8 turbo diesel with over 300hp and 500 ft-lbs of torque. Sounds good to me;)

As for being to much for a 1/2 ton, I don't know. We'll just have to see what the fuel consumption will be.

OTOH, I think the 3.0 turbo diesel in the Ram might be a bit small. 240hp is not a lot in a 5000+ lb vehicle with a 9000+ lb tow rating. Sure the torque is nice at 400+, but I'm very interested in seeing how it performs with a heavy load. Regardless, I'm keeping an open mind.

gagrice

OTOH, I think the 3.0 turbo diesel in the Ram might be a bit small. 240hp is not a lot in a 5000+

My new Touareg TDI is a 3.0L TDI with only 240 HP and over 5000#. It is rated 0-60 in 6.9 seconds and towing 7700 lbs. It is a rocket compared to my Sequoia V8 gasser. Merging onto the freeway near my home it is unbelievable from 30-75 MPH. I only have 600 miles on it so have not punched it yet. First tank was 25.15 MPG. I think that new Ram 1500 diesel will be a F150 killer.

dieselone

I doubt the ram will be an f150 killer for a variety of reasons, but it's certainly competitive. For one thing it has the lowest cargo capacity of the big 3 which also translates to the lowest towing capacity as well. I do like the ram, so I will definitely check out the diesel. Though payload capacity maybe an issue for me. Regardless, I'm looking forward to driving one.

tlong

My new Touareg TDI is a 3.0L TDI with only 240 HP and over 5000#.

Congratulations on the new ride those are really nice. Where is the Toureg built?

dieselone

I'll second that. They are very nice.

robr2

OTOH, I think the 3.0 turbo diesel in the Ram might be a bit small. 240hp is not a lot in a 5000+...My new Touareg TDI is a 3.0L TDI with only 240 HP and over 5000#. It is rated 0-60 in 6.9 seconds and towing 7700 lbs. It is a rocket compared to my Sequoia V8 gasser.

The HP number may be low but the important number is torque. Torque does the work but horsepower allows you to do it quickly. High torque is what's needed when starting from a stop. It's important for towing so you'll see diesels with high torque numbers in SUV's and trucks.

dieselone

"The HP number may be low but the important number is torque. Torque does the work but horsepower allows you to do it quickly. High torque is what's needed when starting from a stop. It's important for towing so you'll see diesels with high torque numbers in SUV's and trucks. "

I'd say that's pretty accurate. Plus a diesel engine produces a lot of torque at low rpm, which generally makes for effortless acceleration, particularly in heavy vehicles and towing.

gagrice

The Touareg, Cayenne and Audi Q7 are built in the same factory in Slovakia. All share the same engine transmission.

marsha7

but I thought the Matador was a Rambler/AMC model of the 60s...but folks are talking with Polara which I thought was a large Dodge back in the 60s...

Side note: less than 25% of my Chapter 7s are due to medical bills...most are filed because they were living within their means, and someone either lost hours of overtime or lost a job, so the income has dropped dramatically, now unable to pay many of the debts that they handled fine before...

Or, they are surrendering their home, which was bought between 2006-2009 for, say, $150K, they still owe $145K, but the home value has dropped to under $50K (or the neighborhood has gone severely downhill)...I had one client, bought new home in 2009 for $120K...by 2011 the assessed value was $62K and by 2012 the assessed value was $22,500.00...NOT A MISPRINT...

They will often give up the home to hopefully buy another one in 2-4 years, and pay what their home is now worth, under $50K...you can recover from Ch 7 in as little as 2-4 years, which is better than back in the 1990s, when you needed the full 10 years for Ch 7 to fall off your credit report...it still stays there for 10 years, but you are no longer penalized as long as you used to be...

andre1969

Dodge used the Matador name for a grand total of one year, 1960. They sold about 27,000 of them. The Polara was also new that year, priced a few hundred bucks more, and sold about 16-17K. Matadors had a 295 hp 361-2bbl, while Polaras had a 305 hp 383-2bbl.

For 1961, the Matador was dropped, and only the Polara carried on as the "big" Dodge on the 122" wb. In 1960-61, Dodge's volume was made up by the Dart lineup. This wasn't the familiar compact Dart that hit the scene in 1963, but rather a Plymouth-sized lineup on a 118" wheelbase (122" for wagons) that replaced the old Coronet, but was priced a bit cheaper, and pretty much matched Plymouth model for model. Plymouth had the Savoy/Belvedere/Fury while the Dart had the Senecca/Pioneer/Phoenix.

AMC started using the Matador name in 1971, I believe, for their midsized lineup. Prior to that, they called the midsized cars Rebel.

fintail

I am not surprised about housing there, as via construction standards, they seem to age like old cars.

My friend who lived in an eastern ATL suburb lived in a house built in 2007. It originally listed or claimed sold at something like 120K, but for some reason (I think the developer went under) not lived in, sold as a foreclosure in 2011 for ~50K. I wouldn't be surprised if it is worth less now. The house looked good, but was not what I would call a quality piece of engineering. My friend saved his sanity and moved back to the west coast last year, where the cost of living hits him hard, but the wages and amenities keep him going.

Speaking of the "Rebel" name, the font/typeface on the 1957 Rambler Rebel emblem is one of my favorites, it is so 50s/rockabilly to me, it could be the nameplate on an electric guitar or something:

andre1969

There's a house in my neighborhood that sold for $143K in 2003. I had looked at it , but my agent said don't offer any more than $100K for the turd. Well, the buyer put some serious lipstick on the pig, and it sold for $375K in 2007.

Well, it didn't take long for the lipstick to wear off, and the new occupants trashed it, and in 2012, it sold for all of $152K.

And now, there's a McMansion up the street, built in 2002, for the princely sum of $349K.

Those early Ramblers were pretty bad-[non-permissible content removed] little cars. Compact car with a 327 V-8 and 255-270 hp. Consumer Reports whined and moaned about my 2-ton '57 DeSoto being over-powered with its 270 hp 341, so I'm sure thy hated the Rebel with a passion!

fintail

The market has become active here again, the powers that be hyped it up, and the suckers bit. A mini bubble, I suspect.

I think I might have seen only one 1957 Rebel in person, they are pretty rare.

berri

"Speaking of the "Rebel" name, the font/typeface on the 1957 Rambler Rebel emblem is one of my favorites, it is so 50s/rockabilly to me, it could be the nameplate on an electric guitar or something:"

That's an interesting observation. I never really paid attention, but now that you said that I could see the word "Fender" in it's place! That time period was all about what some call "Populux" ranging from pastel colored appliances to two-tone (or in Fomoco - tutone) cars to ornate jukeboxes and pinball machines. For a short period of time there was a 57 Heaven museum in Branson, MO that celebrated that year. A whole bunch of 57 cars, along with household and gas station stuff from that year. Sadly, the operating costs and insurance were too much I think compared to the market value of all the items and a few years ago and it was closed down and the items auctioned off. There used to be another neat car place that specialized in post war convertibles and other household items like appliances and TV's from back then near Escondido, CA outside of San Diego. I think it was part of the Deer Park (?) winery. Gagrice might be familiar with that one?

berri

"I think I might have seen only one 1957 Rebel in person, they are pretty rare."

IIRC, a unique feature of that model was that it was the only 4dr ht Rambler. There was a 57 Rambler 4 dr ht station wagon believe it or not a few blocks from where I lived as a kid. It was red with a black top if I remember right. I don't know if it was actually a Rebel though and don't really know if there was even a wagon version of the Rebel model made? Unfortunately, I didn't appreciate the brand as a young kid. They were somewhat common in the Chicago area back then and we just lumped them all together as Kenosha Kadillac's. Actually, I think the guy that owned it always had some junk hanging down from the rear view mirror and one of those hula dancer things on the dashboard. Kind of funny to see that in a Rambler in those days!

stever

One of the best things about that era are the mid-century "Atomic Ranch" houses. And a '57 Rebel would be just the thing to park in the carport.

gagrice

You got it right. Still there. Been a few years since I went and visited. Might be a good place to visit again.

http://www.deerparkwine.com/

Another small auto museum attached to a nursery shut down. Not sure if they sold off the old cars or not. As the older car buffs die off and the wives and kids want nothing to do with the old junk. Should be some buys. I know my neighbor moves a lot of old iron. Sells mostly on ebay.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/patmeyer36/sets/72157623378348289/

http://www.simpsonsnursery.com/

berri

Neat. Somehow I thought it had shut down. I remember years back being out there with the whole family when the kids were young and it also had a building housing the wife's Barbie collection.

lemko

Wow! What happened to his neighborhood? Either his neighborhood went straight down the toilet or his house was overinflated due to the housing bubble. Even the slummiest neighborhoods in Philly don't have houses that sell for $22K unless they're burnt-out crumbling shells.

andre1969

It can happen. I had a friend who lived in Garden Grove, CA, in a nice gated community. He worked for McDonnell-Douglas in the early 90's, bought his condo for around $110K or so. I went out for his wedding in late summer, 1992, and everything seemed fine.

Well, a few years later, he got laid off, and at the same time home values around there really tanked. Towards the end, I think his condo was only valued around $20K, and he did the deed-in-lieu-of-foreclosure thing.

He and his wife had to move back here to Maryland, in with his folks for awhile (his Dad had a really nice looking '73 LeSabre 4-door, black, 455 engine). He did get back on his feet, and last I heard he was living in a nice place in Severna Park, Maryland.

Dunno if that neighborhood in Garden Grove ever recovered or not. I remember his condo had a patio that opened right out onto a little pond, and the whole courtyard area had beautiful landscaping that must have cost a fortune to maintain.

gagrice

Lemko, you need to look around Philly. Check out Zillow, several hundred homes for sale under $25k. The whole city looks in rough shape though. Think Detroit, won't be long now. Our cities are crumbling into ruin. And our emperor can't even play the violin.

gagrice

Condos are always the first to go down in price during a slump. The worst are where the homeowners don't keep their dues paid. There are a lot of condos here in San Diego that sold for $300k to $600k and are now selling under $50k at auction. You have to be very selective as many complexes have fallen into horrible disrepair. Unless they have very strict covenants with no renters allowed you can just be throwing money away. During the last bubble and there have been many in CA, 1000s of apts were converted to condos. Most are substandard and will likely end up demolished. The one thing saving them is the shortage of rentals. All the people that bailed on their upside down home have to live somewhere.

fintail

Not all cities are failing. Many on the west coast are just fine, same with the northeast, and even some in the south. My area is thriving right now. Like incomes, prosperity in general is fractured and unevenly applied. Detroit is certainly not the outcome for many cities, if not most. We know you hate cities, but I for one wouldn't want somewhere where I am forced to drive everywhere and have no nearby amenities. To make it somewhat relevant to the thread, it does seem areas with large scale car manufacturing (in the US anyway) aren't the healthiest in other economic sectors.

Our dear leader might be an empty suit, but the yappy geezer or born on third base elitist who challenged him offered no better future.

And I agree about condos, huge risks. With the bizarre disparity between rent and mortgage still alive in my area, I can get an apartment for half the cost (even less if you count all opportunity and carrying costs) and get the same experience.

Mr_Shiftright

I think anyone who might use phrases like "our crumbling nation" or "we;re going to hell in a handbasket" really needs to get out more.

The car showrooms have decent traffic, the malls, theaters, restaurants, cruise ships, Disneyworld, highways, freeways, college campuses---it's all still buzzing.

There aren't armies of homeless camped under bridges throughout the country, nor children picking through trash cans, dead dogs in the street, etc.

I mean, c'mon...enough with the hyperbolic disaster talk in the media! it's getting silly.

Pointing to some bombed out section in just one part of one city and saying "Look at THAT!" is like pointing to a wrecking yard and saying "See how bad the auto industry has become? Look what people are forced to drive now"

stever

All you have to do is get out and drive around, especially someplace different than you usually go. There's so much "stuff" out there I half expect to see the streets paved with gold any day now.

gagrice

Everything is wonderful if you have a good paying job or income. How about the 40% of black men under 24 that don't have jobs? That is social decay and will not end well for US.

When GM and others are selling their cars with sub prime loans that will come back to haunt US as well. I have NEVER bought a vehicle with less than 20% down. When I drove off in our new Touareg TDI LUX without putting ONE PENNY down, I was shaking my head. I did not even have to pay the tax, title and license. $0 down and 0% interest for 5 years shows there are some problems with our economy. I do have very good credit, but I know people driving new cars that are barely into the workforce. That is the hidden reality of this current economy.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/2013/06/u-7-up-black-youth-unemployment-hits- -42-percent.html