Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

xrunner2

I will ask again. Does the top management of Edmunds want to turn this otherwise fine Automotive commentary webste into a political discussion?

imidazol97

Base is 1.8 L. in the LS. No option for 1.4 L turbo.

berri

It's a GROWLER!!!! Engine does not sound good! I accelerate away and this is one of the coarser 4 cylinders I've come across in a long time

Seems to me this is true of many Ford 4 bangers too. I don't get it; GM and Ford build cars in Europe and have operations in Asia, so why are the North American engines like this? I know Ford V8's have a rumble to them, but it doesn't sound so good with a 4 cylinder. I also know what you mean about some Ford dashboards. For example, the new Explorer dash was terrible when I rented them, along with a cramped driving position in a BIG vehicle - something else I don't understand.

fintail

One big problem though - even though toned down, the TL is kind of homely. At the very least, inelegant. Even the somewhat fattened up TSX looks petite and clean in comparison.

fintail

Who knows, ask them if you are so curious. I can't speak for them, or for people who complain but don't offer alternatives. Better yet, type up a post that is superior. You can do it. The ball is in your court

andres3

It turned American car buying into Political car buying.

stever

I can think of a couple of other examples off-hand.

Lots of people don't buy "American" because of the UAW, and that position has been around for decades.

Lots of people refused to buy a VW or Toyota over the years because of WWII. We really haven't seen many posts along those line for the last 8 years or so; maybe because many of the WWII vets have passed on.

The stereotypes are fun to muse on though.

Survey: Car buying habits by political affiliation (Fox)

Your Car: Politics on Wheels (NY Times)

fintail

Can it really be political when both sides have a role in it?

uplanderguy

We had a discussion here a couple weeks back on whether the U.S./Canada parts percentage on new-car window stickers took assembly locations of final assembly, engine, and transmission into account. It does not. I just looked at a '14 Cruze and it spelled that out on the window sticker ("parts percentage does not take into account final assembly location", and then listed final assembly location of car, engine, and trans).

Just a FYI.

Something tells me this type of measurement would be standardized across manufacturers.

robr2

("parts percentage does not take into account final assembly location", and then listed final assembly location of car, engine, and trans)...Something tells me this type of measurement would be standardized across manufacturers.

It is - NHTSA has a standard to how it is calculated and communicated on Monroney Sticker:

http://www.nhtsa.gov/Laws+&+Regulations/Part+583+American+Automobile+Labeling+Ac- t+(AALA)+Reports

gagrice

For the third consecutive year in 2012, BMW’s assembly plant, located in Spartanburg County, led the U.S. auto industry in exports. The year’s total rose to $7.4 billion as an estimated 211,000 X3, X5, and X6 cross/utility vehicles were shipped to 130 countries. The plant turned out a record 301,519 units.

http://wardsauto.com/plants-amp-production/spartanburg-plant-anchors-bmw-s-growi- ng-range-cuvs

marsha7

I guess that means somebody wants what American workers make...

gagrice

As long as they are not part of the UAW. ;-)

Mr_Shiftright

Got no problem with non-union workers as long as excellent employer protection rules are in place.

Actually, if you include last year's bonuses, Toyota's plant in kentucky paid MORE to its non union workers than the average UAW pay.

BMW's plant offers $24/hour, which is pretty good for someone with little advanced education, plus non-union workers get:

Comprehensive medical, prescription, dental and vision plans
Short-term and long-term disability benefits
Life insurance
401K Retirement Savings Plan
BMW Pension Plan
Associate Car Use Program

So it looks like it's not MONEY that keeps GM from competing, does it?

My point is---management plays a huge role in how a plant performs.

fintail

Those BMW offerings sound similar to compensation and benefits in Germany (except for 6 weeks of vacation - that's a socialist conspiracy, of course). I know Germans at home have been up in arms when American operations don't offer similar compensation - maybe this is the result, and it works. Maybe managers at the SC operation aren't as haughty and divisive as those in Michigan likely are. Treat people with a little respect rather than false superiority, and results will probably be better. Most "leadership" is there via tenure or luck/connections rather than ability, in my experience.

Too bad so many are loath to blame management, as they are either useless middle managers themselves, or believe they are but a step away from becoming an exec. Blaming workers or even giving them the majority is only hastening the socio-economic chasm.

gagrice

I read a lot of UAW propaganda from Rocky. It would have you believe the German, Korean and Japanese are treating their workers like slaves and paying them sub standard wages. Sounds more like sour grapes to me. No wonder the the UAW cannot get any of the non domestics to grab the union ring.

gagrice

Those sound like good stats to use. I agree 100% that management is the key to good production. I think US companies have more layers of wasted management than foreign companies. I have no stats to prove it. Just my time in several communications companies. With many people doing very little to deserve a paycheck. Sadly when it was time for layoffs those doing the work got chopped first. That happens here in our local school district.

imidazol97

>Actually, if you include last year's bonuses, Toyota's plant in kentucky paid MORE to its non union workers than the average UAW pay.

How much and to which workers? The full time or the part timers they have? Have you seen any data about the part time worker percentage at Georgetown?

gagrice

Part time with maximum 29.5 hours per week is the new norm, thanks to Obamacare. I think something like 75% of all new jobs are Part time. A very large popular ladies clothing chain announced all non salaried workers were going to become part time August 31st. I would bet that is why so many new hires are only part time. Competition is stiff in every field of business. HC premiums can break a business. Some of the hardest hit are city school workers. Makes sense it would hit the automakers as well.

Consider the city of Long Beach. It is limiting most of its 1,600 part-time employees to fewer than 27 hours a week, on average. City officials say that without cutting payroll hours, new health benefits would cost up to $2 million more next year, and that extra expense would trigger layoffs and cutbacks in city services.

Overall, an estimated 2.3 million workers nationwide, including 240,000 in California, are at risk of losing hours as employers adjust to the new math of workplace benefits, according to research by UC Berkeley. All this comes at a time when part-timers are being hired in greater numbers as U.S. employers look to keep payrolls lean.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-part-time-healthcare-20130502,0,3228617.st- ory

Mr_Shiftright

Nope. The "data" that 75% of jobs are part-time is from very iffy sources indeed---PHONE SURVEYS! (garbage in, garbage out).

When actual businesses are polled, and their answers checked against tax records, turns out the average job is about 34.5 hours a week.

fintail

Not to mention, all of our first world competitors have some kind of nationalized medical system. But to the free traders and self-titled capitalists, being first world is immaterial, of course. Oh yeah, those competitors kick American butt in most if not all human development indices.

I wonder if Obamacare (which will eventually fail, IMO) will impact foreign owned vehicle assembly. I bet it won't - as those mfrs are from places that have their own systems already.

gagrice

Any way you slice it we are NOT improving and that is according to PBS.

The total? More than 8 million Americans who were working part-time, even though they say they want a full-time job -- in addition, remember, to the 12 million officially unemployed. And if you count all part-time workers in America -- those who worked between one and 34 hours in the past week -- the total is now up above 27 million, several hundred thousand more than it was a year ago.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/2013/07/boffo-bls-jobs-data-but----the-new-j- obs-are-only-part-time.html

The Bureau of Labor Statistics told the MRC’s Business and Media Institute that 174,000 part-time jobs were added in July. Economist Diane Swonk of Mesirow Financial told CNBC’s “Squawk on the Street” that the report showed more people moving into part-time work and cited Obamacare and the sequester as the causes.

Co-anchor Kelly Evans pointedly asked Krueger “Do you think Obamacare is part of the problem?” regarding structural changes” [more part-time jobs] to the labor force. Of course, he said the impact of the Affordable Care Act (ACA) has been “unambiguously been positive.”

Business owners, economists and even national media outlets have begun to disagree. According to a U.S. Chamber of Commerce July 2013 survey, nearly three-fourths of small businesses say the ACA makes it harder to hire workers and 61 percent do not plan to take on additional hires next year.

http://www.mrc.org/articles/174000-part-time-jobs-added-july-bls-says

gagrice

According to Harry Reid just last week. The failure of national HC in the 1940s when it was being pushed following the war was stalled by the UAW and the auto industry Unions demanding special employer paid HC programs.

Reid cited the post-WWII auto industry labor negotiations that made employer-backed health insurance the norm, remarking that “we’ve never been able to work our way out of that” before predicting that Congress would someday end the insurance-based health care system.

fintail

One would think the loud "free enterprise" (read: I inherited my dad's company) squawkers like the clowns at MRC would support part time work - many of these people end up being able to use social welfare to make ends meet, in other words, government subsidizes private profit. 21st century American capitalism.

fintail

It really is all about what the insurance companies want - you get the laws you pay for in an oligocracy.

stever

We do have national health care. You get sick, you get treatment. Who pays depends on whether you have insurance or whether you stick it to the taxpayers. Chances are if you don't have your own coverage, you delay treatment and then it gets really expensive to fix you.

You do have to wonder what the Germans or Japanese think when they go to Chattanooga or Tupelo or South Carolina and learn about our "system".

Then they drive around and are amazed at the big spaces, big box stores everywhere, and monster houses in new subdivisions.

fintail

The US has a national network of hospitals, but I can't call it more than that. Only developed nation where people go broke due to medical issues.

Those groups laugh and shake their heads, just as they do at American infrastructure and foreign spending wastes.

Mr_Shiftright

All wrong. They all are just parroting the same source, one after the other---typical American media---hopeless.

Know how you can tell? They all use the 174,000 number!

Nobody goes to primary sources anymore--they just repeat the same bad information.

US Chamber of Commerce is perhaps the most anti ACA, anti-Obama organization short of North Korea. A very bad source of quality information. They don't even blush about their bias.

it's just error, slander or carelessness in making conclusions from very specious data. In reality, nobody knows yet what's going on. it's all media bilgewater. It's crystal-ball gazing posing as facts.

What do 'futurists" all have in common? They are always proven wrong.

tlong

Chances are if you don't have your own coverage, you delay treatment and then it gets really expensive to fix you.

...or you don't go at all, or you die...

So thankful the "American" UAW got the employer-funded health care going. Such a great system -- so many countries are trying to switch from their socialist systems to ours...

tlong

...media bilgewater...

I like that phrase!

gagrice

So why are we supporting PBS if they just pass on the lies told By the Federal government? The 174,000 supposedly came from the BLS. I looked at their site and decided to take their word for it unless someone else came up with a different figure from the bls. Here are the stats direct from the horses mouth. I assume it is the difference from June to July.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t08.htm

gagrice

You did notice they come from Canada, Sweden, UK, France etc etc to get treated at the Mayo and other World class hospitals. It is expensive but the best. My relatives from Canada have little good to say about their HC system. They just haven't dealt with Obamacare or Medicare or they may change their tune. I know the NHS in the UK struggles. And are now limiting and denying care based on the persons lifestyle. Maybe we should set those parameters now before it gets too far along. You are over weight and we cannot help you. Smoke, sorry your gonna die. Alcoholic or druggie forget it.

uplanderguy

Those groups laugh and shake their heads, just as they do at American infrastructure and foreign spending wastes.

Yet, the number of international people obtaining treatment at places like Cleveland Clinic is very large, as they can't get care like it where they're from.

dieselone

"Only developed nation where people go broke due to medical issues. "

Definitely not true. Many people have financial issues from medical problems because they can't work. If you look at bankruptcy stats from Canada, you'll find medical issues listed. I don't know how other countries handle disability insurance, but IMO it's very important to have and is why we pay for private disability insurance to supplement our employer provided plans. Plus you'll likely go broke before qualifying for Social Security based disability.

All that said, I'm not going to defend our health care system. While it performs well in some ways, cost is definitely is not one of them. My wife has had many health issues. Several knee surgeries, the last being a cartilage implant behind her patella, spinal fusion, and a few other procedures. All told it's been about over a million in bills. Fortunately our employer paid insurance has kept us from going broke and the out of pocket expenses have been manageable.

Many of these procedures meant she was off work for 3 months. Thankfully she has good disability insurance and didn't lose any wages. W/O disability insurance, the her lost wages would have been 3 to 4 times the amount of out of pocket medical expenses which would have put a dent in our finances.

gagrice

Diesel that is all good advice. We need to look out for ourselves and our families. Depending on the government is asking for problems. I would include having nursing home care insurance. You cannot believe how many people go into assisted living or nursing homes and spend all they have. Then they are put on state aid and given a lesser level of care. pack several to a room etc. It also depends on the state you live in. They are sometimes worlds apart in what is available.

The national average cost of a semi-private room in a skilled-care facility is about $250 per day, or $91,000 per year, with a low of about $54,000 in Louisiana and a high of $170,000 in metropolitan New York. Over the next 25 years, this cost is expected to rise faster than the pace of inflation as the dwindling supply of nursing home workers confronts the increasing demand for their services by an older population that will double in that time period.

At this rate, a 45-year-old will have to stash away over $4,000 a year to have over $400,000, or enough to pay for two years of long-term care, at age 85. A 55 year-old will have to stash away about $5,000 a year to have over $250,000, enough to pay for two years of long-term care costs at age 85.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505144_162-57593558/do-you-need-long-term-care-insur- ance/

dieselone

"I would include having nursing home care insurance. You cannot believe how many people go into assisted living or nursing homes and spend all they have. Then they are put on state aid and given a lesser level of care. pack several to a room etc. It also depends on the state you live in. They are sometimes worlds apart in what is available. "

That is definitely worth pursuing also. My grandpa was in a nursing home for about 6 months. Fortunately, his pension and saving covered the $5k month for 6 months.

The main issue I have with long term care insurance is the premiums are getting out of hand. It's to the point where one might be better off rolling the dice, saving those premiums with the hopes they won't end up in a nursing home until all of the money is gone.

From the stats I've seen, 1 out of 4 end up in a nursing home and the median stay is under 6 months. With those odds, I'll bet I won't end up in a nursing home longer than my money will last. Most people die within the first year of being in a nursing home.

Also, with as much as I already spend on my kids, and how much I'll pay for their educations, I'm not going to skimp on my later years for their benefit;)

stever

Medical tourism goes both ways.

It's the dog days of summer folks - anyone shopping for new "American" iron (whatever that means).

Mr_Shiftright

Ah, but you are making a false comparison. ACA is *not* government run healthcare. It is totally different from the countries you mention.

In terms of providing overall healthcare, America's system, sadly, ranks pretty low next to the countries you mentioned. Perhaps you've heard of "medical tourism", wherein large numbers of Americans go to India and Mexico for surgical procedures they could not possibly afford here?

And without some intervention, such as ACA or perhaps an even better system in the future, it's justgoing to get worse for everyone, including our auto workers. Medical costs are eating up people's income, and, as you may guess, sucking vast sums of money out of the economy that might otherwise go into a domestic automaker's showrooms.

No so-called "socialist" country has any yearning to become like America, I can assure you of that. They come here to make money, not to be "like us". People know which side their toast is buttered on.

the priorities of what is important in life are just different in a Dane's or Swede's head than in most of ours.

uplanderguy

Not sure how close you live to a large, world-renowned medical center, but I can tell you that foreign leaders and royalty have visited the Cleveland Clinic for care. I'm not so sure that would work in the other direction.

imidazol97

>ACA is *not* government run healthcare.

It sure looks like it is the government running it from here.

It is run by the government. The executive branch just declared (unilaterally and illegally) that the employer mandate will be delayed a year. That wsn't done by a business operating within the healthcare system.

dieselone

"It's the dog days of summer folks - anyone shopping for new "American" iron (whatever that means)."

I'm keeping my eyes open for something for my daughter to drive. Just don't know what that is going to be. Also I haven't decided if I want another SUV or a pickup.

One of these days I'm going to test drive a new Silverado/Sierra. But the reality is I'll likely buy a 1-2 year old Expedition or F150. From what I've read, I don't think the new GM twins offer anything I want bad enough to warrant buying new.

Mr_Shiftright

Nope, the government does not administer, or provide the personnel, nor the facilities, for the health care. The ACA only attempts to manage costs. Your health care is still a completely private, for-profit enterprise. You can opt out of ACA and have nothing to do with it if you choose. What could be more American than that?

robr2

Not sure how close you live to a large, world-renowned medical center, but I can tell you that foreign leaders and royalty have visited the Cleveland Clinic for care. I'm not so sure that would work in the other direction.

Living in Boston, I am close to quite a few. The little secret is that the best American hospitals have liaisons overseas that network with local primary care doctors to get them to advise their wealthier patients (ie cash payers) to go to the American hospital they represent. The hospitals also have dedicated staff to help their international patients get visas, private flights, lodging for their entourage and often have private wings just for these patients. It's a lucrative business.

Google Cleveland Clinic International Patients and you'll see their services for these cash customers.

As for Americans going overseas for treatment, that is often based on saving money. Medical tourists can pay cash for the same procedures and save plenty of money. One article I read was about a man who had a hernia done in Costa Rica for $3900. In the US was $14,000 and his insurance deductible was $10,000. I've even heard of some insurers offering to reduce premiums and deductibles and pay travel costs if one is willing to go overseas for treatment.

Mr_Shiftright

Well bottom line is *somebody* had to do *something* about health care costs--it was the elephant in the room and nobody was dealing with it.

Health care costs are a real menace to any U.S business, and especially to anything vaguely representing a "toy" to purchase--specialty cars, motorcycles, sporting equipment, electronics,etc.

Then of course there's always going to be a wide disparity in views on healthcare between the young and the aging. When you are young you don't need it much, and when you are older you can't live without it.

fintail

I haven't heard of anyone in developed Europe going bankrupt due to medical issues. Canada is America Jr., and even there, it isn't nearly as rampant as here. It'd be interesting to see the per capita medical bko numbers for both places, or even those who have severely impacted credit due to medical bills going to collections.

I have a Swiss friend who needed a kidney transplant. It would have been financial hardship in a place where insurance companies buy laws, rather than just the headache due to routine checkups it is for him.

fintail

And numerous Americans travel abroad to receive care, too. So private hospitals let foreign 1%ers buy their way in, yes.

What is "very large"? Compared to the places from which they reside,which in apples to apples first world vs first world, almost always have higher life expectancies and better living conditions? The evil of socialism has even produced greater economic mobility than supposed capitalism.

Do you not cringe at how the US develops and maintains infrastructure, and how much is wasted in the military-industrial cabal? Wouldn't money from the latter be better spent elsewhere?

andre1969

From the stats I've seen, 1 out of 4 end up in a nursing home and the median stay is under 6 months. With those odds, I'll bet I won't end up in a nursing home longer than my money will last. Most people die within the first year of being in a nursing home.

This is kinda morbid to say, but I hope my relatives drop off fairly quickly. Not because of the financial issues, but just so that they don't have to suffer for too long. I still have two grandparents who are alive. One is 89 and the other is 98. The two that did die, died at the age of 73, and went pretty quickly, without going into a nursing home.

I do remember my Great Grandmother being in a nursing home. She died in 1981, when I was 11. Looking back, I always remember her as being in a nursing home, but about the earliest I can remember of her would be around 1976 or so. I just remember Great Granddad passing away in 1977, and us grandkids, in a total lack of couth, talking about how we figured Great Grandmom would go first, because she was in a wheelchair! Out of the mouths of babes.

I've thought about looking into long term care insurance, but I've heard that often those companies go bust and you end up with nothing. Plus, I don't have any kids, so by the time I'm ready to kick off, I'll most likely be the end of the line, and won't really care what the money gets blown on.

But yeah, I think as I get a bit older, I'm going to live it up a bit more. No sense in probate getting all of it!

fintail

How much of the GDP is spent on healthcare in the US compared to other first world nations? I seem to recall it is about 70% more. And how much would would that difference benefit business of all kinds?

robr2

Well bottom line is *somebody* had to do *something* about health care costs--it was the elephant in the room and nobody was dealing with it.

Oh I don't disagree. Healthcare costs here in the US are way too high. As I've noted before, my wife's employer gives her $$$ to spend on benefits and we see the full cost of the insurance premium every week.

tlong

You did notice they come from Canada, Sweden, UK, France etc etc to get treated at the Mayo and other World class hospitals.

Yes, we have the best. But as an average, we spend 2x and have shorter life expectancies. Medicine is a big financial game in this country.

When the UAW got the employer-funded model going, they sent the US down a path of disaster that has multiplied to this day.