I wonder how much it would cost to buy a City name change for Detroit at this point in order to make Chrysler's recent commercials obsolete. They are so hard up for cash, they should let me rename the city for $0.99.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Government Motors has not been good to US workers. Slowly taking the jobs and sending them elsewhere.
Well, for full disclosure, the Sonic is built in Michigan when the car it replaced came straight from Korea; the Impala is now built in the U.S. (Michigan) when that hasn't happened for an Impala since '96, and the Camaro will be built in the 'States in the next year or so, moving from Canada.
Ford's mainline sedan, the Fusion, was built solely in Mexico since its inception, although I believe the current car is built in Michigan as well as Mexico.
Although I've seen it mentioned here lately, I often see in these discussions, no comment about where the engine and trans of a vehicle are assembled. That's on every window sticker of a new vehicle and should be considered as well IMHO.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
You do use the term BUILT loosely. The Sonic is assembled here. Still only 50% US content. The Impala is going down from 75% to 66% US Canada content and the Feds say some will still be assembled in Canada. The big sellers are losing US content. Cruze diesel is 50%. Will the new Cruze go below 56% currently. I am not impressed with the direction the government has taken with our tax dollars squandered on GM. What does each Volt cost the tax payer and it is only 45% US content. Engine transmission batteries and electronics all foreign made and brought here for final assembly.
Although I've seen it mentioned here lately, I often see in these discussions, no comment about where the engine and trans of a vehicle are assembled. That's on every window sticker of a new vehicle and should be considered as well IMHO.
Wouldn't the effects of those two major assemblies be reflected in the total domestic content numbers as well?
Although I've seen it mentioned here lately, I often see in these discussions, no comment about where the engine and trans of a vehicle are assembled. That's on every window sticker of a new vehicle and should be considered as well IMHO.
Agreed; that is one of the things that is making me hesitate about buying a 500 Abarth- the engine is assembled in Detroit...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Parts and final assembly all carry weight in the total content. It is not easy to tell from the NHTSA AALA website how they are weighted. All I can tell from the site is the US/Canada content on GM's best selling vehicles the Silverado and Sierra have lost content every year from 90% in 2007 to 40% in 2014. Either jobs are lost here or GM is expanding in Mexico instead of here.
I believe the 'parts content' is just that...parts, not (final) assembly location.
Sorry, what I meant was that the "domestic content" number would include the effects of the two major assemblies (engine and tranny) being made in the USA versus overseas. So I'm asking why the engine and tranny, on their own, are so important to look at separately versus just looking at the domestic content number, which should (theoretically) reflect the total domestic economic value of parts made domestically.
It took even longer for Detroit to declare itself a financial failure. With my 5 American vehicles, I can say that I did everything I could to help Detroit.
My '98 Astro once again exceeded all expectations, delivering 23-24 mpg on a 2500 mile trip to Fla and back. Is it nice being able to close the doors with a bunch of 4'X8' sheets of plywood inside and still get in the mid 20's from 4.3 liters.
18 months ago, with a failed open thermostat, it gave 20-21 mpg on the same trip.
So I'm asking why the engine and tranny, on their own, are so important to look at separately.
Because they are the two biggest components in terms of cost in the vehicle. One could also presume that they require the most investment in physical plant.
If the US does start producing more content, and assembling more content, and they do it reliably, a lot of tow truck and auto repair shops will be needing their own bailouts soon.
Man, I haven't needed a tow truck in a long time.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I guess I'm having trouble thinking of a location as 'content'.
I should have expanded further. The plant shouldn't count as content but engines and transmissions require casting, forging, milling, et al. As such, they are probably the most expensive plants to equip and run and contribute more to their local economies.
As such, they are probably the most expensive plants to equip and run and contribute more to their local economies.
...and therefore I assume have a huge impact on the domestic conent number. It's not like you could have a vehicle assembled here with high domestic content unless the engine and/or tranny were made domestically as well.
General Motors stock would have to sell for $95.51 per share for taxpayers to break even on bailing out the company, according to a government watchdog's report released Wednesday.
That price is about three times what GM shares are selling for now, even after a 25 percent increase in the price so far this year.
"There's no question that Treasury, the taxpayers, are going to lose money on the GM investment," Special Inspector General Christy Romero, author of the July quarterly report to Congress, said in an interview.
GM needed the $49.5 billion bailout to survive its trip through bankruptcy restructuring in 2009. Since emerging from bankruptcy, the restructured company has piled up $17.2 billion in profits. In exchange for the bailout, the government got 61 percent of GM's stock. It cut that to 33 percent in GM's November 2010 initial public offering.
The government has gradually been selling off the rest of the stock, with the goal of exiting the investment by April of next year. As of June 6, it still owned 189 million shares, or about 14 percent of the company, according to the report.
Taxpayers are still $18.1 billion in the hole on the $49.5 billion bailout, including interest and dividends, according to the report.
If the government sells its remaining shares of GM for the current stock price of $36.61, it would get just over $6.9 billion, meaning taxpayers would lose about $11.2 billion on the bailout.
Not to mention the $26.5 Billion handed to the UAW pension plan.
James Sherk and Todd Zywicki make a strong case that the Obama administration's preferential treatment of the United Auto Workers in the bailouts of General Motors and Chrysler diverted an extra $26.5 billion to the union versus typical bankruptcy practices ("Obama's United Auto Workers Bailout," op-ed, June 14). The bottom line is that the total expected taxpayer net loss of $23 billion as a result of the bailouts is attributable entirely to "irregularities" in the treatment of the UAW.
A bailout that DOES NOT NEED TO EVER BE PAID BACK. AKA a bailout with an ever increasing cost due to the time cost of money. Followed by another future bailout
Wow...Of all the unfilled government watchdog positions as per plan such that the Administration can steal us blindly, there IS a gov't watchdog tallying the GM bailout cost!!!!Only they have the cost exaggerrated to 4X. Does anyone in the gov't ever get anything right?
Apparently your right, after all, I've recently learned that Chrysler didn't pay back $3 billion in recent bailouts from 2008/2009, but yet, they can claim they paid the taxpayers back.
Man, I wish I could tell the IRS I've paid them all I owe them since I haven't made $3 billion yet.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
The auto company bailout was purely political pandering to the UAW. Ironically the UAW will probably lose more jobs going forward. At least we filled their pension coffers full.
Ah well, that story comes from a publication known to be an extremely dubious news source, ---the Fiscal Times is often condemned by the advocacy groups such as Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting as propagandistic and highly inaccurate, and does not generally enjoy the respect of credentialed journalists.
I don't see any denials by the MSM either. When the steel workers lost their pensions the PBGC had to pony up and they got 55% of what they were promised. Why is the UAW any better than the steel workers? Will GM give what they promised to give when they were bailed out. I think they owe the Pension fund a sizable chunk of change this year.
Depends on what one defines as "foreign aid" - if one includes the ventures of the warmaking cabal that exists to prop up certain mostly ungrateful nations, the number to beat is a lot higher than 26.5BN - and I'd rather spend it at home than abroad anyway.
I wonder the extent of the subsidies required to keep other fancy pensions alive - including grossly overpaid judges, LEOs, tenured pseudo-managers, etc. - Heritage Foundation would never rail against them, or the asinine tax policy that no doubt benefits their donors. Just politics and bitterness on both sides. Obama paid off some of his supporters, and the defeated select offenses to feign outrage.
Reigning in corporate tax dodges, taxing some "so-called" churches, ending corporate subsidies, cutting defense spending waste, abolishing the Dept of Homeland Security---there's tons of ways to make money without beating the little guys to death or banishing the Muppets and the NEA. I mean, let's at least PRETEND this is government for the people.
Building cars on an assembly line is not happy-happy work. Those critics who are envious of the wages should quit their jobs and do that instead.
Was it ever in vogue for either party? At any moment in history?
Some groups want to pretend, but most of what they suggest seems like it would result in no more than kicking down the ladders they themselves used to ascend to power. I got mine, you can go pound sand.
Was it ever in vogue for either party? At any moment in history?
Seems like there were actual surpluses at some points in our history.
Funny how the average household now mirrors the Feds. Easy credit, spend away. Or even the D3 - promise the pensions, pay later - even if you won't have the money.
Perhaps having credit causes negative aspects of human nature. Perhaps we should outlaw credit instead of drugs. It might do us more good.
This is why you never grant the government more power than they already have--because they never give it up once they have it.
Don't worry, the NSA has recorded your post, and is correlating it to your phone calls, your continuous whereabouts, and your your credit-card purchasing history. Just so you are informed.
The government's "spying" has proven to be far less adept than you posit it to be. :P
I used to think like you, young man. I used to think that the government was like a big long train, with the president in the locomotive, firmly at the controls, and the congress dutifully behind him, stoking the boiler or, as I grew up, filling the diesel fuel tanks, lubricating the couplers, etc., and WE THE PEOPLE in the cars behind, reading the paper, chatting amiably.
Then, as I matured, I thought no--it's not quite like that---in the locomotive, the president and the congress and fighiting for control of the throttle, with the president sometimes in control, and congress othertimes in control.
NOW I realize that the president and congress are partying in the car in front of us, and there is NOBODY in the locomotive, and the throttle is tied in the full on position by a rope. :P
Sometimes someone says something logical - USA Today. But that's not how voters judge "success", not to mention we all have our special interests we don't want gored.
Same story with building roads and bridges and all the other capital projects - all the glory is in the new construction and ribbon cutting but there's no thought going in to how much it'll cost to maintain the new projects for the next 20 or 30 years, and no savings set aside to pay for the eventual needed replacement.
It's kind of like buying a new car, American or otherwise, because it's shiny and then discovering that it takes fancy defatted unhydrogenated muskrat-free oil every 4,000 miles and it costs $700 to replace a headlight.
Surpluses, maybe because we hadn't yet fully bent over to suicidal trade policy and idiotic tax policy? I don't remember any parties presenting plans that exercised fiscal conservatism - surpluses were based on nothing but luck IMO.
Too late to outlaw credit, the global economy depends on it.
And we can thank the fine folks at Booz Allen Hamilton for help making it a reality. Our tax dollars at work! It sure beats world class roads, sustainable education systems, etc. I wonder if they offer pensions, and if we help the pseudo private sector with it. People should be much more in arms about those incestuous relationships than about some fading old autoworkers.
Maintenance is un-American, I think it is a pinko socialist conspiracy. So many cars, houses, and roads I see around me make me believe most can't even define "maintenance", not to mention plan for it.
Of course, building it all to a lowest bidder standard doesn't help either - but it keeps some politico's brother in law's contracting company in "business". Lowest bidder cheapness with no thought to longterm consequences, unfortunately also a recent love of D3 product planning.
there's no thought going in to how much it'll cost to maintain the new projects for the next 20 or 30 years, and no savings set aside to pay for the eventual needed replacement.
Man, you could be talking about all these grand Amtrak plans and spending on new routes that are lucky to be half full. As for 20 years down the road, sadly I don't think a lot of business execs think about those type of issues either. America has become a very short sighted place.
Wow, imagine that! People living within their means! I guess we'd be seeing people living in more reasonably-sized houses than 6000 sq. ft. cardboard and Tyvek McMansions and a lot more Cruzes, Foci, Corollas, and Civics on the street and far fewer SUVs and luxury cars.
That's the dilemma a lot of folks of modest means find out when they buy an out-of-warranty luxury car from a shady buy-here-pay-here lot in a marginal neighborhood. They try to look rich for cheap only to find it's more expensive to keep an older luxury car functioning than it is buying it new. My local mechanic told me a story about a lady who came in with a BMW 5-Series. He told her how much it would cost to repair and balked. She asked him if he could jerry-rig something at a lower cost instead. My mechanic refused because she would only come back to complain when the jerry-rigged repair failed.
What we are experiencing is what happens to all empires as they get larger and larger---the cost to *maintain and replace* what already exists keeps escalating.
If they had to replace the Golden Gate Bridge, it would cost...geesh...who knows how many TIMES more than the original....and yet, when you're done, all you have is the same basic bridge.
Just to stay even, an "empire" has to spend more and more; eventually, this will require some retraction from grandiose borders, possessions and goals, and a more modest standard of living for everyone in the empire.
You bought a V-12 BMW sedan 10 years ago, and it costs more and more each year just to keep it running. Forget "restoring it".
And now you want a new 7 series BMW--well, it's going to cost more than the original one did.
Same idea. So unless your income keeps going up and up and up, something in your budget will have to give.
Building cars on an assembly line is not happy-happy work. Those critics who are envious of the wages should quit their jobs and do that instead.
On that, we agree. No one in my family ever worked at an auto plant, but one thing that strikes me, over, and over, and over again, in 'Hemmings Classic Car' magazine's 'I Was There' column, is how people who worked in auto plants for a short while 'back in the day' almost invariably say how miserable the work was. Most who contribute to that column quit after a fairly short time and many say it compelled them to go to, or finish, college.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I don't know if I could go that far, glossing over sinister taxpayer funded money pits pretending to be private sector wonders like BAH and the zillion connected slimy consultants in order to complain about telecoms - the latter of which bend over to federal demands likely to keep their contracts intact, or via coercion.
Next to the Praetorian class industries, the D3 and telcos look like angels.
Comments
Well, for full disclosure, the Sonic is built in Michigan when the car it replaced came straight from Korea; the Impala is now built in the U.S. (Michigan) when that hasn't happened for an Impala since '96, and the Camaro will be built in the 'States in the next year or so, moving from Canada.
Ford's mainline sedan, the Fusion, was built solely in Mexico since its inception, although I believe the current car is built in Michigan as well as Mexico.
Although I've seen it mentioned here lately, I often see in these discussions, no comment about where the engine and trans of a vehicle are assembled. That's on every window sticker of a new vehicle and should be considered as well IMHO.
Wouldn't the effects of those two major assemblies be reflected in the total domestic content numbers as well?
Agreed; that is one of the things that is making me hesitate about buying a 500 Abarth- the engine is assembled in Detroit...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I believe the 'parts content' is just that...parts, not (final) assembly location.
http://www.nhtsa.gov/Laws+&+Regulations/Part+583+American+Automobile+Labeling+Ac- t+%28AALA%29+Reports
Sorry, what I meant was that the "domestic content" number would include the effects of the two major assemblies (engine and tranny) being made in the USA versus overseas. So I'm asking why the engine and tranny, on their own, are so important to look at separately versus just looking at the domestic content number, which should (theoretically) reflect the total domestic economic value of parts made domestically.
My '98 Astro once again exceeded all expectations, delivering 23-24 mpg on a 2500 mile trip to Fla and back. Is it nice being able to close the doors with a bunch of 4'X8' sheets of plywood inside and still get in the mid 20's from 4.3 liters.
18 months ago, with a failed open thermostat, it gave 20-21 mpg on the same trip.
Because they are the two biggest components in terms of cost in the vehicle. One could also presume that they require the most investment in physical plant.
Man, I haven't needed a tow truck in a long time.
I should have expanded further. The plant shouldn't count as content but engines and transmissions require casting, forging, milling, et al. As such, they are probably the most expensive plants to equip and run and contribute more to their local economies.
...and therefore I assume have a huge impact on the domestic conent number. It's not like you could have a vehicle assembled here with high domestic content unless the engine and/or tranny were made domestically as well.
General Motors stock would have to sell for $95.51 per share for taxpayers to break even on bailing out the company, according to a government watchdog's report released Wednesday.
That price is about three times what GM shares are selling for now, even after a 25 percent increase in the price so far this year.
"There's no question that Treasury, the taxpayers, are going to lose money on the GM investment," Special Inspector General Christy Romero, author of the July quarterly report to Congress, said in an interview.
GM needed the $49.5 billion bailout to survive its trip through bankruptcy restructuring in 2009. Since emerging from bankruptcy, the restructured company has piled up $17.2 billion in profits. In exchange for the bailout, the government got 61 percent of GM's stock. It cut that to 33 percent in GM's November 2010 initial public offering.
The government has gradually been selling off the rest of the stock, with the goal of exiting the investment by April of next year. As of June 6, it still owned 189 million shares, or about 14 percent of the company, according to the report.
Taxpayers are still $18.1 billion in the hole on the $49.5 billion bailout, including interest and dividends, according to the report.
If the government sells its remaining shares of GM for the current stock price of $36.61, it would get just over $6.9 billion, meaning taxpayers would lose about $11.2 billion on the bailout.
Not to mention the $26.5 Billion handed to the UAW pension plan.
James Sherk and Todd Zywicki make a strong case that the Obama administration's preferential treatment of the United Auto Workers in the bailouts of General Motors and Chrysler diverted an extra $26.5 billion to the union versus typical bankruptcy practices ("Obama's United Auto Workers Bailout," op-ed, June 14). The bottom line is that the total expected taxpayer net loss of $23 billion as a result of the bailouts is attributable entirely to "irregularities" in the treatment of the UAW.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303836404577477003432140244.html
Afterall, it is important to them that the taxpayer is paid back :P :lemon: :sick:
Wow...Of all the unfilled government watchdog positions as per plan such that the Administration can steal us blindly, there IS a gov't watchdog tallying the GM bailout cost!!!!Only they have the cost exaggerrated to 4X. Does anyone in the gov't ever get anything right?
Man, I wish I could tell the IRS I've paid them all I owe them since I haven't made $3 billion yet.
http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Columns/2012/10/17/Obamas-Auto-Bailout-Was-Really-- a-Hefty-Union-Payoff.aspx#page1
As such, I am reading it with a pound of salt.
But you know, first amendment and all that.....
Subsidizing UAW compensation cost $26.5 billion—more than the government spends each year on foreign aid.
http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2012/06/auto-bailout-or-uaw-bailout-tax- payer-losses-came-from-subsidizing-union-compensation
I don't see any denials by the MSM either. When the steel workers lost their pensions the PBGC had to pony up and they got 55% of what they were promised. Why is the UAW any better than the steel workers? Will GM give what they promised to give when they were bailed out. I think they owe the Pension fund a sizable chunk of change this year.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303768104577462650268680454.html
I wonder the extent of the subsidies required to keep other fancy pensions alive - including grossly overpaid judges, LEOs, tenured pseudo-managers, etc. - Heritage Foundation would never rail against them, or the asinine tax policy that no doubt benefits their donors. Just politics and bitterness on both sides. Obama paid off some of his supporters, and the defeated select offenses to feign outrage.
Actual average wage for a UAW worker is $28/hr, as compared to about $24/hr for non-union workers, say at Toyota.
source: Center for Automotive Research
What your new sources don't mention is that without government assistance, GM and Chrysler would have *liquidated*.
So consider the replacement cost for two major automakers, in other words, or even their military defense segments.
The private vs gov't. question.
Are we to bail out every city, state, town, county, municipality that over spends in spite of overtaxing?
Right now, the feds spend $4 billion they don't have, EVERY DAY. Isn't that enough?
Seems obscene to me. But fiscal conservatism isn't in vogue at the moment, even for the elephants.
IIRC correctly, fiscal conservatism for the elephants didn't preclude overspending. It was just spent on different things.
Building cars on an assembly line is not happy-happy work. Those critics who are envious of the wages should quit their jobs and do that instead.
Some groups want to pretend, but most of what they suggest seems like it would result in no more than kicking down the ladders they themselves used to ascend to power. I got mine, you can go pound sand.
It did tend to be more of a stated philosophy than any actual reality.
The smart answer is as many robots as possible.
Seems like there were actual surpluses at some points in our history.
Funny how the average household now mirrors the Feds. Easy credit, spend away. Or even the D3 - promise the pensions, pay later - even if you won't have the money.
Perhaps having credit causes negative aspects of human nature. Perhaps we should outlaw credit instead of drugs. It might do us more good.
Don't worry, the NSA has recorded your post, and is correlating it to your phone calls, your continuous whereabouts, and your your credit-card purchasing history. Just so you are informed.
...and unfortunately seems to go for new laws, agency's, etc. Even if the situation changes they just stick around or even grow.
...as long as you keep Roger Smith and Fanuc out of it
I used to think like you, young man. I used to think that the government was like a big long train, with the president in the locomotive, firmly at the controls, and the congress dutifully behind him, stoking the boiler or, as I grew up, filling the diesel fuel tanks, lubricating the couplers, etc., and WE THE PEOPLE in the cars behind, reading the paper, chatting amiably.
Then, as I matured, I thought no--it's not quite like that---in the locomotive, the president and the congress and fighiting for control of the throttle, with the president sometimes in control, and congress othertimes in control.
NOW I realize that the president and congress are partying in the car in front of us, and there is NOBODY in the locomotive, and the throttle is tied in the full on position by a rope. :P
Same story with building roads and bridges and all the other capital projects - all the glory is in the new construction and ribbon cutting but there's no thought going in to how much it'll cost to maintain the new projects for the next 20 or 30 years, and no savings set aside to pay for the eventual needed replacement.
It's kind of like buying a new car, American or otherwise, because it's shiny and then discovering that it takes fancy defatted unhydrogenated muskrat-free oil every 4,000 miles and it costs $700 to replace a headlight.
Too late to outlaw credit, the global economy depends on it.
Of course, building it all to a lowest bidder standard doesn't help either - but it keeps some politico's brother in law's contracting company in "business". Lowest bidder cheapness with no thought to longterm consequences, unfortunately also a recent love of D3 product planning.
Man, you could be talking about all these grand Amtrak plans and spending on new routes that are lucky to be half full. As for 20 years down the road, sadly I don't think a lot of business execs think about those type of issues either. America has become a very short sighted place.
Old Charlie stole the handle
And the train it won't stop goin'
No it won't slow down
Jethro Tull, Locomotive Breath
Your post made that song start playing in my head, and now it won't stop!
I think it's the slimy oligopolic telecoms that are handing the Feds the rooms to tap the internet.
Heck, next to the telecom industry, even the D3 look pretty good.
Obama does hang out with the CEO of ComCast. Plays golf with him. I don't recall hearing him being close to any of the D3 execs.
If they had to replace the Golden Gate Bridge, it would cost...geesh...who knows how many TIMES more than the original....and yet, when you're done, all you have is the same basic bridge.
Just to stay even, an "empire" has to spend more and more; eventually, this will require some retraction from grandiose borders, possessions and goals, and a more modest standard of living for everyone in the empire.
You bought a V-12 BMW sedan 10 years ago, and it costs more and more each year just to keep it running. Forget "restoring it".
And now you want a new 7 series BMW--well, it's going to cost more than the original one did.
Same idea. So unless your income keeps going up and up and up, something in your budget will have to give.
On that, we agree. No one in my family ever worked at an auto plant, but one thing that strikes me, over, and over, and over again, in 'Hemmings Classic Car' magazine's 'I Was There' column, is how people who worked in auto plants for a short while 'back in the day' almost invariably say how miserable the work was. Most who contribute to that column quit after a fairly short time and many say it compelled them to go to, or finish, college.
Your post made that song start playing in my head, and now it won't stop!
Hey now, don't get me started about my ex-wife and her best friend... :P
Next to the Praetorian class industries, the D3 and telcos look like angels.