Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

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  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Here is a fair and balanced MSM news story that shows how unfair the bailout of GM really was for thousands of people. One of many good reasons to avoid American name plates.

    After a 35-year career at Delphi, the primary parts supplier for General Motors, Kane expected retirement to look much different. He left the company at age 54 as it was downsizing, and he was offered a buyout.

    But in 2009, Kane received word that, as part of the bailout to save General Motors, the pensions that he and 20,000 fellow Delphi salaried employees were promised would be reduced 30 to 70 percent.

    Kane lost almost half his pension and now receives only $1,600 a month. He says it has been devastating. “It’s just a beat down, day in and day out, to struggle to get through.”


    http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/04/14921926-delphi-retirees-say-- obama-administration-betrayed-them?lite
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    If anything, such a story should turn YOU into a leftist! :shades:
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,689
    Many of the people who were with GM were transferred to Delphi, a then new separate company, with the alleged promise that they would get all benefits at a same level as the GM company tenure would have given them.

    Then when things went kaput at GM, the UAW negotiated out the IUE labor workers here in the Dayton area and got good things for UAW and **** for IUE. That included the Delphi workers, many of whom are in the Dayton area because of the past history of many GM ACDelco and Harrison plants here along with some Frigidaire plant history.

    Now the leftist NBC and others are all interesting in pouring mo' money into Delphi White Color worker's retirements, but they are not in favor of that monies coming from the UAW windfall that they got during the Obama-led bailout. That should be new, more money from the American taxpayer. I see many of those Delphi white collar workers in this area driving their new GM cars bought still on X-plan or whatever discount they get. I was looking at the Impala and others recently at a store and the salesman asked if I got a GM discount.

    It's my opinion that Delphi white collar workers should only get money from the UAW bailout already spent. No new money.

    As for GM, we need to give the company more bailout support so they can bring out more and better cars.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Sometimes Fox gets it right:

    "Bush's plan (2008 bailout) is designed to keep the auto industry running in the short term, passing the longer-range problem on to the incoming administration of President-elect Barack Obama."

    Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2008/12/19/federal-government-loan-automakers-b/- #ixzz2aS4NnLbp
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,689
    edited July 2013
    Yup. That was the way I remembered it. I was challenged by someone on another thread months ago that it was all the previous administration's fault. Now I see the current admin is taking full credit for the wonderful and full recovery of auto jobs, according to the AXLErod.

    As I've said, it's over. It's done. We need to support even more to keep more GM jobs in the US.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well nothing is so simple as you read it in the "papers".

    Like Obama or No Like, one has to admit that few Presidents walked into office with more of a mess on the floor. Possibly FDR.

    Reconstructing the fall of the Detroit auto industry is like reconstructing the fall of the Soviet Union. To do an accurate job, you have to trace back DECADES and connect all the dots.

    In the case of the USSR, you can start around 1924 (rise of Stalin). In the case of the D3, I'd pin the beginning of the end at the mid 1970s (rise of japanese auto industry, full press emissions and safety regulations, powerful unions, oblivious upper management, the decay of the economy and tax base in the Greater Detroit area, and so on...)
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    The EU is smoke and mirrors

    I agree - Germany drops out - it's toast. So how is it that the Euro is priced at least $1.25 to the US Dollar? Couldn't be that Federal Reserve is manipulating the dollar value - only the Asians do that! As for China, I'm not quite as dour on it because of their growth prospects versus the western hemisphere, but I do expect some kind of ugly correction down the road.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    with what limited funds GM has under the control of the government.

    I don't think that's true any more. The gov has sold a substantial amount of their shares (stupidly in my opinion) and does not hold a majority of stock or ownership in GM. That's why the recent posts about the gov needing over $90/share to break even instead of around $50. That's not because GM is getting worse (quite the opposite to me), but because there are now far fewer gov shares to amortize the bailout funds over.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,483
    Indeed, without Germany, the game is up. And at the same time, Germany needs places to sell its goods - it can't consume all it produces. Kind of stuck in a bad place.

    The weird dollar/Euro relationship has been around for a decade now, long before QE, and in the past has been much more illogical than today. I am not sure why the Euro has been above parity for so long.

    For China, IMO, IP theft, social repression, massive corruption the likes of which we cannot imagine, and sweatshops will only get you so far.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Dictatorships can be very efficient in manipulating the economy.

    As for the capitalist system, it cycles from success to failure just like any other economic system...America has endured 7 major/serious collapses since the 1800s that wiped out millions of people each time.

    Having massive natural resources is/was a big booster to the U.S. economic model....as opposed say to Japan, which has few.

    this is also why Russia will re-emerge and why the USA will never be impoverished--at least not in the next few lifetimes.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,483
    edited July 2013
    I don't think the US has really been capitalist in at least the past 120 or more years. It is truly a market oligarchy now. The market part creates those rises and falls, but the ideal of capitalism seems hard to find - which can be good and bad - not much egalitarianism or meritocracy to be found, both of which IMO should be products of capitalism.

    Russia has a lot of development to do before it will emerge at anything we could consider a western standard. Russian cold war strength was mostly due to tech gained from resettled German scientists. Not likely to hit a first world standard in either of our lifetimes, anyway. It might meet an equal point in a future US that continues to have diminishing expectations.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'd say we're headed more toward the "Banana Republic" economic model. Seems inevitable. Princes and peons so to speak.

    I'm looking forward to my new Trabant (if I may mix metaphors for a moment). :P
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Anyone buying an American car these days?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    does a Fiat count? I was looking at one yesterday.

    How ironic that the only american make I was considering a few years back when car shopping, was discontinued (Ford Ranger).
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,370
    does a Fiat count? I was looking at one yesterday.

    I think you know that I'm seriously considering a 500 Abarth. Built in Mexico with a US assembled engine and an Italian transaxle. My wife likes the 500L; it's built in Serbia and both the engine and transaxle are Italian.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well the Italians do win in F1 so......

    160 HP isn't bad for such a little car.
  • ohenryxohenryx Member Posts: 285
    Anyone buying an American car these days?

    I purchased a new 2013 Chevrolet Silverado about 2 months ago.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,483
    In some places, that is already reality - visit the southeast. I kind of like Trabis, but I don't know if I want one as a daily driver - sadly none will be built in the US, Americans don't have much of a history of building cars with leafblower engines :shades:

    Would your Fiat be an Abarth? I suppose to the weirdos who consider Hencho en Mexico to be "American", it would count.

    Someone was saying car assembly work is not nice...I could work on this line
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    An Abarth or a Turbo---but so far I'm thinking I"m too tall for the car.

    the AMG is quite a machine but the styling is...MEH...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,483
    How tall are you? I've sat in an Abarth, I am 6'1" - I fit fine - maybe not as roomy feeling as my E or the fintail, but it wasn't like getting into a Miata. They are tall.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    6-2--- but I'd want the sunroof so that's a factor.

    Built in Mexico? Ah, that's where those 46,000 NAFTA jobs went--now I remember.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,483
    Just drive with the roof open, plenty of headroom then :shades:

    America is America, except when it isn't.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,370
    My local Fiat dealer is one of the few that orders some of its cars without sunroofs. I DON"T want a hole in the roof and I'm glad Fiat gives you the option to forgo it. I may also check out the Fiesta ST; it is even less american than the Abarth, as even the engine and transaxle are sourced from Mexico...

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Anyone buying an American car these days?

    Yes an SUV from an American dealer. Parts from all over the globe I am sure assembled along side the Porsche Cayenne. Can't get much better than Porsche craftsmen. :blush: So happy to be getting another oil burner. Never again will I waste money on a gasoline sucking engine. Too bad the US Domestics can't get their heads out of the sand and compete with the Germans on producing a variety of diesel sipping vehicles.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    How ironic that the only american make I was considering a few years back when car shopping, was discontinued (Ford Ranger).

    Also sad as the T6 Ranger is a World class PU truck offering two diesel engines and a gasser for the less astute buyer. They know if they sold them in the USA their cash cow F150 would lose a lot of sales.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    If anything, such a story should turn YOU into a leftist!

    It makes ME glad I have a 401K and not a pension! Who would you rather have manage your money, your corporation....or yourself?
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    As for GM, we need to give the company more bailout support so they can bring out more and better cars.

    Sounds like eastern Europe during the Cold War. I hear Trabants were quite nice. :surprise:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think GM cars are better now than say 10 years ago.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I think GM cars are better now than say 10 years ago.

    Oh absolutely.

    How much do you think that would have happened without a near death experience?

    They've gotten enough aid from us. Time to get competitive. They are heading that way, still need to cut more cruft.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited July 2013
    Well, that's a new one to me.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    edited July 2013
    but I'm gonna tick a buncha people off and say that I think the best-made automobiles for the money are Japanese-made vehicles. I must tell you all that don't know that 56% of the vehicles I've owned have been Ford's. Ever since I traded in my 1997 Ford Escort sedan for a 1999 Kia Sephia it's been Kia's and a Mitsubishi for me. The 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS is actually my first Japanese-made automobile and if I were to get a new car (or used car, really) again I would probably buy a Nissan cube or a Hybrid Mitsubishi Lancer GT, that is if Mitsubishi decides to build a hybrid Lancer GT. I'm thinking they are feverishly working on one as I type this post out.

    But I feel that from the research I've done GM is making rigs besides SUV's and pickups that are purchase-able. Like the Buick Regal for instance. I could see iluvmysephia1 inside one of them happily cruising around. It's just that I feel that Mitsubishi makes an even better passenger car sedan that I would feel better buying. That's all. But GM is making some good progress. They'll be fine. Remember the Silverado pickup and how many they sell of them and you'll be knocked out of that worry-jag you're trying to think yourself out of.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    Oh absolutely.

    How much do you think that would have happened without a near death experience?


    I'd think that by most metrics, cars of all brands are better now than they were 10 years ago. So GM might have improved, but the bigger question is, have they caught up, or surpassed the competition?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    IIRC, that 1997 Escort had a lot of Mazda influence in it, and had a strong relation to the 323/Protege or whatever they were calling it by then.

    Just out of curiosity, why did you trade the Escort so soon?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Maybe they are better because they have far less US content. In 2007 there were 49 different vehicles with 81% or more US/Canada content. By 2013 there are NONE. And only 7 vehicles with over 75% US Content.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    but I'm gonna tick a buncha people off and say that I think the best-made automobiles for the money are Japanese-made vehicles.

    Maybe so, Maybe not. I lean toward German engineering vs Japanese. I think bang for the buck the Koreans kick everyone's behind. I have an 80 year old friend that travels from San Diego to a remote village in New Mexico every few weeks. He sold his Lincoln Town car and bought a Hyundai Sonata last year. He loves that car. He said everything about it is better than his Lincoln that he also loved. He has put 30k miles on the Sonata in just over a year.

    PS
    He traded the Lincoln for a Toyota Tacoma to haul his travel trailer to NM. Kept it less than a year. Said he just was not a PU person. The drive to NM in the Tacoma beat him to death. I don't think I would want to travel long distances in my Frontier.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I lean toward German engineering vs Japanese.

    Having dealt with German companies for years, I find that their products are elegantly engineered but not very reliable long term. The issue is they love tight tolerances but it's to easy for items to go outside the tolerances.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...the best buy is Buick!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    He traded the Lincoln for a Toyota Tacoma to haul his travel trailer to NM. Kept it less than a year. Said he just was not a PU person. The drive to NM in the Tacoma beat him to death. I don't think I would want to travel long distances in my Frontier.

    I've actually toyed with the idea of selling my 2012 Ram from time to time. It's just too big and cumbersome, and sometimes I don't feel like I really need it. But, with my luck, I'd get rid of the Ram, and then my old '85 Silverado would finally succumb to some major catastrophe, and I'd be completely truck-less!

    I never really did need the Ram, but had bought it to help out my uncle, who had a '97 Silverado at the time that was giving him major fits. It was going to be a vehicle that both of us would use from time to time, but not really a primary vehicle for either. But, he gave me no input at all when we looked at it and got it, and then afterwards decided he didn't like it because it rides too rough, is too hard to get in and out of, and too hard to park.

    So far, the furthest I've driven the Ram is about 125 miles away. It's actually a pretty good highway cruiser, with comfy seats and good legroom for me. Storage behind the seat is surprisingly generous, as well. It wouldn't be a good truck for a family or bunch of friends to take off in. It's really a 2-seater, as the center spot on the seat is pretty useless. But for just me, I could probably take off in it and disappear for awhile if I wanted.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think Buick has been the best brand GM has to offer for a very long time. I think the 1998 strike against GM was the beginning of the end for GM. I don't think they will ever prosper with UAW labor. Probably why they are lowering their US content every year.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It's actually a pretty good highway cruiser, with comfy seats and good legroom for me.

    That is a biggie for me. I also like the more upright seating position. My 80 year old friend is only 5"4" and 110 lbs. I think that is why the smaller car fits him so well.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    I'm 6'3" and around 195 lb and admittedly, getting up into my Ram is a bit of a stretch even for me! My uncle is around 5'10" and probably around 190 lb as well. Has a bum leg where he walks with a limp sometimes. So, I can understand my truck being hard for him to get into.

    As for older people, I don't even want to think about trying to get my 89 year old grandmother, or 98 year old Granddad up into it! Grandmom used to be able to get into the '85 Silverado just fine up until a few years ago, but these days I'll usually load her in the Park Ave if I have to take her anywhere.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    That is a biggie for me. I also like the more upright seating position. My 80 year old friend is only 5"4" and 110 lbs. I think that is why the smaller car fits him so well.

    That is one of the reasons why I am looking at getting a Nissan cube for my next rig. One sits up higher than in a sedan. I love my '08 Lancer GTS but keep hitting curbs in it! I can't see them because I sit so low in that thing. BAM! And I've already hit the curb.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,483
    My experience with German engineering isn't just tight tolerances, but complexity for the sake of complexity. While the Japanese seem to like what is simple no matter the cost, the Germans seem to find enjoyment with complex systems. Wonderful when it is working.

    American design over the past several decades seems to just be based on cost.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,483
    Depends, if I had a situation where I was guaranteed 85% after 25-30, be virtually unfireable after 5-10 years of employment, and not have real world productivity requirements, I might be happy with it. And that's not just for union workers. With the 401K, FIRE types can sink the ship, ruin it for everyone, and escape real punishment (time for capital punishment for financial crimes and treachery),.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    edited July 2013
    American design over the past several decades seems to just be based on cost.

    Bingo! You hit the nail on the head. I can just "feel it" and it makes me run from American cars any more. My '97 Ford Escort was all right...but that's just it. It was just "all right." I liked the '99 Kia Sephia more right away. It was improved with Hankook tires and Konig Diva wheels and handled better.

    In the Nissan cube I will be looking for good Nissan fit and trim, nice "over the bumps" feelings from the cube's springs and coils, a 6-speed stick that will enable me to "row my own" and a nice, spacious cabin in which to entertain guests. Ahhh....I know it will be a good CUV and I know it will be built well. I used to like the South Korean rigs more than the Japanese rigs but that has flip-flopped ever since I got the 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS.

    image
    2014 Nissan cube in a weird shade of green that does have some appeal to it

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    edited July 2013
    I've been traveling quite a bit recently so I'm renting a lot of cars. I finally got a Cruze for a rental. This is a car that I've wanted to sample more of since I saw a fully loaded Cruze at the LA Auto show just before it released a few years ago.

    The rental of course is not the top of the line vehicle. The one I got was very new, with only ~400 miles on the odometer. The interior was black cloth rather than the auto show leather.

    I find the Cruze a handsome car - probably the most handsome smaller GM IMHO. The trunk is spacious although in my sample it was fairly cheaply finished, with painted metal goose necks and stark black fiberboard floor - pretty common at this price point.

    The interior upon first look seemed nicer to me than the Ford Focus. The dash isn't as overstyled as the Focus, which is a good thing. The steering wheel is very nice, with what seemed to be a leather finish. The dash looks nice but it has some actual black cloth on it as trim - cloth that looks like the black cloth on the seats. I couldn't decide if I liked it or not, but it was certainly a bit different. The dash and door plastics were hard, however. The Focus dash is actually padded.

    The controls were nice and simple although I felt the climate controls were a bit low and hard to see. The audio controls were convenient, had real knobs, and were well marked. I didn't like the fact that the speedometer is off to the right and can almost become hidden under the steering wheel rim - it's too small and off center to be very useful, while the "information computer" is front and center. What ever happened to the idea of the most important gauges being front and center?

    OK, time to start her up... and wow! It's a GROWLER!!!! Engine does not sound good! I accelerate away and this is one of the coarser 4 cylinders I've come across in a long time. Really loud and growly on acceleration - much harsher than 4's I've owned from Honda, Mazda, and VW. The steering was light but nicely weighted and felt good. On the freeway the car wasn't so loud and had a good ride. The engine sound wasn't noticeable when not accelerating.

    On summary, I'd say this is clearly GM's best small car. There's a ton of potential for the Cruze to be one of the best small cars. Unfortunately GM is competing with some very capable vehicles, and they don't quite get there. There's nothing fatal about the Cruze - they just need to polish up a few things and they would do it. Too bad they get 80-90% of the way there, then don't finish the job. Reminds me of Apple vs. Microsoft - Microsoft has good ideas, then executes badly (Windows 8), whereas Apple usually executes better and really focuses on user interface. GM needs to do that too.

    So GM, if you want the new Cruze to be class leading:

    1 - Get a more refined engine for the car. I understand they exist but somehow are not on the Cruze.
    2 - Improve the hard interior plastics a bit.
    3 - Center the speedometer

    Everything else is pretty good.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,689
    >The engine sound wasn't noticeable when not accelerating.

    Which engine did the car have? 1.8 L? 1.4 L turbo which is in most above the LS? 2.0 L diesel?

    >I understand they exist but somehow are not on the Cruze.

    See above.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited July 2013
    I'd guess being a low trimmed rental, it had the 1.8 which I haven't read many positive reviews on. I'd be surprised if it's the 1.4 turbo.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,938
    If I buy a TL I'm buying American, if I buy a TSX I'm buying Japanese.

    I think the TL is the better buy, but, I still feel as though the TSX's have slightly better build/fit & finish assembly. Maybe it's just my perception and bias.

    When I say slightly, I mean every so slightly.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Which engine did the car have? 1.8 L? 1.4 L turbo which is in most above the LS? 2.0 L diesel?

    Well definitely not the diesel. Which engine would be with a base model? the 1.8 or the 1.4?
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