Lincoln MKS

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Comments

  • arumagearumage Member Posts: 922
    I think Ford needs to reprogram the software in their new transmission. If GM can get 8.4 seconds 0-60 out of a nearly 5,000 lb. crossover with their V6 and the same 6-speed, Ford should be able to do better in the MKZ considering that the software is really the only thing different between the transmissions.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Actually it's not just software - the physical controls are different. I don't remember the details but I think GM chose to put more controls on the tranny itself and Ford chose to put it in the PCM. I'm sure there are pros and cons to both.

    Which GM crossover? It's not just the software that's different - different engine and different rear end also.
  • arumagearumage Member Posts: 922
    The GMC Acadia has 275 horsepower, which is a slight horsepower edge over the MKZ. The final drive in the Acadia is 3.16, and the MKZ is 3:46. I've heard that the first three gears in the Acadia are really agressive and the last three are pretty soft.

    Controls on the PCM would possibly give Ford an edge on changing settings between different vehicle types.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    Maybe I am missing something but I didn't think the MKZ was getting the new joint venture transmission yet. If that is the case, there is more to it than software. I thought the MKZ still used the Aisan unit which I believe has less aggressive ratios in the first 3 gears.

    I presume the MKS will get the new transmission from the get-go.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I was confused and was thinking MKX, not MKZ. These MK things have got to go.

    Yes, the MKZ has the Aisin 6 speed, NOT the 6F.
  • arumagearumage Member Posts: 922
    Sorry, I was thinking that the MKZ had the 6F already. I wonder how or if the 6F will affect performance for the MKZ. I also wonder how close the transmission in the Mazda CX-9 is the MKZ transmission as they are both coming from Aisin. The Hyundai Veracruz also has an Aisin 6-speed.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    The 6F should improve acceleration. Based on the specs in the Media Ford site, the ratios for the 6F are 4.48, 2.87, 1.84, 1.00, and .74. The Aisin is 4.15, 2.37, 1.16, and I can't recall the top two but they are both OD ratios.

    I haven't seen the torque curve of the 3.5 but based on a short drive in an MKZ, it felt pretty gutless under 4000 RPM. I think it would benefit greatly from deeper gearing in the lower gears.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    Oops, I missed 4th when I was listing the 6F ratios. Should be 4.48, 2.87, 1.84, 1.41, 1.00, and .74.
  • arumagearumage Member Posts: 922
    it felt pretty gutless under 4000 RPM

    That reminds me of my 2000 Intrepid ES. It feels like it doesn't have much get up and go from 0, but it has great passing power.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    So, what happened to the CVT option? Gone? Didn't work out? NObody liked it? Too expensive? What? I thought it was the wave of the future....
  • arumagearumage Member Posts: 922
    The current CVT can't handle the torque of the 3.5L V6. If I read correctly, the CVT can handle 258 ft. lbs. The MKZ puts out 249 which puts it pretty close to the limit making mechanical failure a little more likely. Any upgrades in performance would put it over the edge.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Ah. thanks, arumage - makes sense. I was wondering where the "momentum" went for the CVT... :blush:
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The torque limitation is correct but I think it had more to do with cost than anything else.
  • arumagearumage Member Posts: 922
    That definitely could be. The collaboration between GM and Ford could certainly make this transmission cheaper to build.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    The specifics of the MKS aren't yet to be announced. There's still tweaking going on in every sense.

    Yes the MKZ has the Aisin unit, if it had that 6F, it would help. I dislike the Aisin unit anyways. Luckily their high failure rates are linked to the 5 speeds which Toyota, VW, and a few other use, the 6speeds seem to be fine.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    Thanks, ANT. A suggestion: Unless the MKS is competitive with the Cadillac STS, I suggest you make one more revision to the MKS: Put a Grand Marquis badge on it and give it to Mercury. It would make a good replacement for the current Panther based model. Then move forward with the MKR for Lincoln.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    Agree, Lincoln is now what was formerly known as Mercury. So it is logical to shut down Lincoln and brand all Lincolns as Mercurys. Even if they switch to RWD it will be mainstream australian RWD.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    I just opened the "Ford Interceptor Concept" forum.

    It's a positive sign whenever I start a forum. Now I just need to open a MK-R one, although there's one sort of tied to it. Let's see what I come up with.
  • displacedtexandisplacedtexan Member Posts: 364
    Even if they switch to RWD it will be mainstream australian RWD.

    So? And, how do you know? If it's a new RWD platform, a good one, it doesn't matter if it's shared across the board.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Exactly. It's stupid to have 2 different RWD platforms and 2 different CD platforms (Fusion/Mondeo) and 2 different C platforms (Focus NA and Europe).
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    For years I have mentioned how un-necessary that was. As long as you have a flexible platform, you can tweak it according to the market it'll be sold in. While keeping the hard points common, you can change things such as engines, styling, interiors, insulation, suspension tuning, and so forth.

    Problem has been product cycles were never close to one another in timing, to allow for such integration...till now.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    It also sounded like the CEO never forced the heads of each division to work together on common platforms so it was voluntary and each one was looking out for themselves. That explains an awful lot of what we've seen the last few years. And to me that's probably the one change that Mulally is making that will have the most impact long term.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Conservatism hasn't helped the company for years, it's bold moves taking place now that the vehicle lovers are in more control over the beancounters.

    Like in any job, when you have one slacker, everyone else begins to slack because they see that person getting away with it. So it taints the working pool, and kills productivity. So when the pool is tainted, you need to empty everything out and start fresh and make sure there's enough bleach so it doesn't happen again.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    "Exactly. It's stupid to have 2 different RWD platforms"

    Not so fast. GM has two – one for Caddy another for Holden and other GM brands. Then DCX also has one RWD platform for Chrysler and another for Mercedes. Note that RWD is not shared between luxury and mainstream RWD cars.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    And is that good or bad? I mean, that might work for them, why not go a step further and offer a platform that can be tailored to individual markets. As in changing some hard points but keeping the architecture similar, but use modular components to differ them ?

    One example us the Taurus/Continental duo. Same platform, just totally tailored differently to suit different audiences.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I loved my Continentals....to me, it was the ultimate sedan design.....at the time, anyway. I mourned the passing of the 94 Continental, the last good one, IMO. Just like I mourn the passing of the Navigator.....
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I meant 2 different similar RWD platforms like the Mustang and Falcon. It's ok if they're targeting 2 different price ranges or sizes.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    Well, then put on Australian Ford RWD platform? How about that?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    It will be more the case that going forward Australia and NA will share and jointly develop the same platforms rather than using one or the other. Same for NA and Europe for B, C and CD FWD/AWD platforms.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    I meant - put Jaguar on Australian Ford RWD platform, why not to do that if it is so effective? Why put Lincoln instead?
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    The current Jaguar platform is superior to that, and aluminum, more lightweight.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    So why then Lincoln has to use Falcon platform if there is a superior one? If I am out to buy a luxury car I want the best for my money.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    The Jaguar platform is too expensive to sell at Lincoln prices, and make a profit. That was the big problem with the Lincoln LS, which was based on the Jag S Type platform. For the price they could sell the LS at, the margin was too thin from what the thing cost to make. Lincoln can't be as good as a Jag, and sell for 1/3 the price.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    So case closed - Lincoln gets cheapo platforms. It is not about sharing global platforms and other BS.

    Now you said Lincoln LS did not sell. But Jagaur does not sell eigther but still they manage to get true luxury plaform.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Why would you want to place a premium brand like Jaguar, and give them a platform that is derived from our own Falcon of 30+ years ago?

    Then the whining will be "It's a dated platform".

    Jaguar has the aluminum DEW98 that is working great for them. You don't take them 10 steps back by placing them in a AU Falcon platform.

    As it is, there's enough whining from armchair critics complaining about a C1 Focus, when in reality, it's just 4 structural members that seperates the C170 from C1.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    "As it is, there's enough whining from armchair critics complaining about a C1 Focus, when in reality, it's just 4 structural members that seperates the C170 from C1. "

    But still Mazda3 wins every comparo and every other car beats Focus. How it is possible if Focus is the same car as Mazda3? And where is 2.3L in new Focus? Where is hatchback? Where is SVT?

    "Jaguar has the aluminum DEW98 that is working great for them. You don't take them 10 steps back by placing them in a AU Falcon platform. "

    What do you mean by "working great"? Jaguar looses money year after year. But when LS lost some money - now it is a big deal - Lincoln has to move from "fine" platform to mainstream Falcon. You can never make Lincoln luxury marque again. Luxury means perfection.
  • arumagearumage Member Posts: 922
    I think Jaguar's current design strategy is why it loses money. If they move more agressively, like the C-XF, they'll be fine, IMHO. I also think Lincoln needs the supposed 3.7L V6 and some new sheet metal to differentiate themselve from Ford and Mercury.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Who said it was the same car? He was talking about the platform underneath, not the final vehicle. The 08 Focus is a stop gap to hold over until a global Focus can be done on a new shared C2 platform in 2010. They're cutting powertrains and models to save money in the meantime.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    If C1 differs only in couple of details from American platform why it is so difficult for Ford to switch to European platform?
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Because changing a couple of details, takes millions in investments, with minimal output. Ford should have adopted the US Focus not as an entry-sized vehicle, but further up the price scale and slot another entry vehicle below it. In Europe, people will pay a premium not for it's size, but it's quality. Unfortunately American consumer tastes equate price, with size.

    It's not till recently where that trend is bucking a bit. People ARE willing to pay $25K for a subcompact Jetta, or $30K+ for a compact S40. So now is the time when vehicle architectures can be spread among globally. And even then, we'll still have vehicles that are specific to the US market such as an Accord.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    You can add here also Fusion. Mondeo is too small for USA, just like Mazda6 and European Accord. Actually Fusion and American Accord are not so big eigther. Camry even having the same size somehow feels bigger inside and outside and it is ultimate American sedan.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    The last generation Mondeo is just a tad equal in size to that of the Fusion, and the new one, even larger. If someone wants something a bit larger, then there's the 500.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    500 is boring. And it feels almost like full size.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    The 500 IS boring, like an Avalon, but the Avalon is smoother, quieter, and can be had with nicer leather seats. Now, the Avalon isn't so boring looking either.

    However, the 500 has the best utilization of space in the world - that trunk and back seat are absolutely cavernous! You could easily put 4 bodies in that trunk. Whoever styled it, had a Passat next to it for inspiration, you can tell - but something we Americans haven't figured out yet, is why Americans buy Passats and Camrys - and it isn't because they're ugly!! Americans drive the Passats because of how they DRIVE, despite their ugly appearance and dismal reliability record. So, why make your Ford, which doesn't drive nearly that well, ugly like a Passat? Same with Camry, people buy them not because they're boring, they buy them because they're the easiest car in the world to drive, and because they are dead-bank dependable.

    To get Americans to drive OUR cars, we have to offer something the foreigners DON'T offer - which used to be style, size, power, and comfort! (See; 86 Taurus, 83 T-bird, 90 Town Car, 83 Cougar) Those were the cars that made Ford famous and prosperous..... They were completely different than a Toyota - and were appealing. Now, we're trying to replicate the foreigners, and it won't work - ever.
  • indiboy007indiboy007 Member Posts: 1
    I think that the Lincoln MKS is a nice looking car. The car seems to have good style and I like the retro gauges. The rims may not be the best choice but it is a nice size. The interior is what sells it to me. It looks very clean and modern. If this car is priced right in comparison and the performance numbers compare favorably to cars such as the 2007 g35 sedan and other luxury cars that offer the same options than I would rather have this car instead.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    You're the first chap I've heard of who likes these retro guages - other than in the Mustang, which is a retro design from front to back - I hate them.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    I dont recall that the emm kay ess has retro guages. I cant find the pix of the supposed interior right now. But I will. Let me just say that it would be profoundly stupid to put retro 70s style guages in such a modern looking machine. Profoundly stupid. It only reaches the level of stupid in the Navigator. And fairly stpid in the x or y or z whatever.

    Lemme just say at this point that the S could be a car I would look at replacing my LS with. But only if the guages dont look like a 74 granada and the shifter doesn't look like a 2007 Fusion. But they probably will, sadly. In any case, my wife has said she's picking out the next car and she likes Infinitis and I just saw the 07 G35 and it has a manual transmission option (short throw 6 speed no less) so I gotta believe that's what we'll be driving in a year or 2.

    After I sell the Navigator, our 9 or so year foray into Lincoln vehicles will be over. It has been a good ride, we reached higher to American Luxury and our dreams were realized. However, I aint going BACK to the future of Mexican second-class cars with Lincoln. To me that's a nightmare. If they can't or wont design and build a vehicle in the USA that excites the senses when you get in and push the pedal, to heck with them.

    Geez, I just realized that by the time Lincoln does build something exciting, assumng they are working on it as Allen and Alan say they are, gee, I'll be of the age of a Town Car buyer so it will be a dont care for me! Life is strange.

    :sick:
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    The gauges don't look retro to me. They are shown on BON but I couldn't seem to paste them here.

    Anyway, the MKS is about my last hope of having a reasonable replacement for my LS and still remain a Ford man. The Jag XF (when it arrives) or a slightly used XJ is still a possibility but I am waiting for more information on the MKS.

    I like the interior of the concept and can live with the exterior. It sounds like the production version will have the split grille with cues from the MKR. Actually, the front of the MKS concept was my favorite view. I hope they make some changes to the rear to get rid of the Aurora look. The C-pillar treatment has been done to death already but I like it OK.

    My biggest concerns are more about the mechanical side of things. The original LS V8 would do 0-60 in the low to mid 7s. The newer VVT models would knock about a second off that. I am skepical that a 3.7 V6 MKS can be as quick as a late model LS particularly if the MKS is burdened with the weight and rotational mass of a stupid AWD system. I am looking for stronger performance as well as more luxury in my next ride.

    Also for the MKS to be on my shopping list, it must have a proper gear selector - not the D-L foolishness.

    I guess we wait and see....
  • The thing that bugs me about the MKS is not so much the bland looks (which I realize are undergoing modification), but the proportions. The LS was 193" long, with a 114" wheelbase. The MKS is actually a smidgen longer than the new Lexus LS460. Thus, it is a big car, but with the typically long FWD front overhang. It is practically the same size all around as the Buick Lucerne.

    Still, in photos, it looks smaller and tidier than it actually is. I have never understood why a company would design a big car to look small. (Ford did that with the 1996 Taurus...the immediate impression it gave, before people got used to looking at its odd proportions, was that it was smaller than the 1995 it replaced.) So those who go for boats like the TC won't gravitate toward it, and those who like the E Class/BMW 5 series/CTS/Lexus GS/Audi 6/Infiniti M size sedans won't like its extra heft either.

    Granted, it is supposed to have gobs of interior space (although I hope they do something about increasing interior width over the 500...the 500's shoulder and hip room is only in mid-size territory). Maybe those who went for the LeSabre-sized full-size will like it. It will be interesting to see how it all falls out.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    Yes, I agree with you about the proportions - another disadvantage of FWD transverse engine layout.

    It really bothers me on the MKZ - 190 inches long on a 107 inch wheelbase - shorter than a Camry.
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