Lincoln MKS

nvbanker

Amen on the advertising too, George. While out of state, I saw an ad for the new Jaguar - and they NEVER SHOWED THE CAR! What the hell are they doing? I think one of Ford's biggest problems is whoever the ad agency is, and whoever approved their sorry ad campaigns.

subarufan1

IMHO = In My Humble Opinion. it's nerd speak :P

nvbanker

Well, whatever it is, seeing a lot of blurred images of people and a fender or a wheel, doesn't sell ME a car.

driverdm

It's call Brand based advertising. It is the same thought process that led from the change from names to alpha-numeric signatures (which I do not agree with) on luxury cars. It focuses on building the brand not a product. To be succesful in the luxury car segment where there is a certain panache that goes with the name, like for instance someone saying "I drive a Mercedes", you have to have this type of marketing. It may not appeal to everyone but we all must agree that this marketing is necessary. Especially, seeing the overwhelming majority of the luxury market has similar ads. It might not be your cup of tea but would you really not want Lincoln to only appeal to you and people that think like you alone? If you owned Lincoln wouldn't you want to have advertising that go after both. Both brand and product advertising.

[Deleted User]

I see it is now confirmed that they will not put a V8 in the MKS. Cost savings again. Too bad. Ford is still cheaping out in the wrong places. (It's product that makes for success.)

Although a hot 3.5 might be very competitive, this means they will not have a V8 to put in the MKX in a year or two. Offering both a hot six and a V8 would be the way to go, but it isn't going to happen any time soon. Lincoln: Packard all over again?

scootertrash

Gregg's right- How do you run a "car family" ad when your family consists of:
The dead LS, the comatose Town Car, The Aviator who's left the building, the Zephyr is getting a sex-change, the LT is getting a make-over and McX adoption won't be finalized for several months, And who knows if, or what, the McS might be.
What do you show?

Following what others are doing (poorly I might add), worshiping focus groups and hiding behind consultants is what people who are scared to think for themselves do.

akirby

In this case I don't think it's JUST cost savings as it might have been in the past.

a) it's developed totally in-house as opposed to the Yamaha 4.4L V8
b) it should make considerably more power (estimated 350 hp vs. 315 for the 4.4L
c) it should be lighter and therefore provide better balance for improved handling

Isn't this the sort of BOLD MOVE that we keep asking for?

heyjewel

"Although a hot 3.5 might be very competitive, this means they will not have a V8 to put in the MKX in a year or two"

Did u mean to say MK S ?? Arent these names great?

heyjewel

I am warming to the idea of a twin-turbo V6:

-A real American designed and built engine!!! (At least I think it is.)
-Better handling probably. Assuming Lincoln gives a rip about handling now that the LS is gone. They certainly did not build the Z for handling.

-BUT, twin turbos represent more H/W to break and turbos are known for doing just that, arent they?

-Will the Ford modular V8 (4.6L) NOT fit in the engine bay of the MK S? Probably not since it's a Volvo, huh?

Anyway, a base MK S with normally-aspirated 3.5 would probably be a nice car for the blue hairs. A V6 getting like 20-28mpg will be more saleable than a V8 getting 16/24 I suppose. Then, a hipo MK S with the twin-turbo for those who want the extra power. Now, if only they'll PUT AN ACTUAL DRIVER-CONTROL SHIFTER IN THE THING!. Can you imagine a car with 350HP twin-turbo under the hood and a shifter with "D-L" as your forward gear options. HAHAHAHA. Wanna bet that's what they do? After all, it'll save $5.00

Oh and Allen, please dont quote their advertising:>) It's not a bold move if you're doing it to save money. Reducing output by 21% aint a bold move either.

BTW, anybody want my opinion on the "Bold Moves" ads? :>)

scootertrash

Yes, the name game is just crazy. It's what you get when you are too scared to make a real decision and hide behind consultants and focus groups because you're too scared to make a decision.

As far as those who will say "Lexus, Mercedes and BMW do it..."

No they do not.

They have the car brand, followed by the car family and then the model i.e. BMW 645 Anyone who knows cars knows a 6 is a big coupe and 45 means a 4.5 engine.
A Mercedes S550 is a big sedan with a 5.5L engine.
A Lexus LS 430 is a Luxury Sedan with a 4.5l engine.

What is MKX,MKZ,MKS supposed to signify?

Besides being meaningless, its the only naming convention where only the final letter is different--That's what makes it so bizarrely confusing.

It is totally meaningless and a poor copy of someone else's idea.
If this is the best bureaucratic group-think they can come up with, they are in trouble.

nvbanker

"anybody want my opinion on the "Bold Moves" ads? :>)"

Yes George, I do....

scootertrash

I'm just waiting for the one where Billy turns to the camera and has a tear running down his cheek like Iron Eyes Cody.

nvbanker

driverdm; are you saying I'm an unsophisicated buyer because the JAGUAR name alone doesn't make me want to run out and buy one? I'm a banker too, and I'm very brand consious - I drove Lincolns for years. I have interest in Jags, I drive a Lexus now (the penultimate Banker's car) but not just because I see rich people on TV toasting each other, and then see the Lexus brand.

I understand that the Ad people have their focus groups and such - I've been involved in that. Selling a Bank though, is much different, it's not a tangible product, it's a service. A car is a man's horse, and a womans jewelry - maybe I'm different, but I need to admire the car.....

Know what I mean....?

akirby

If they just wanted to save money they'd stay with the NA 3.5L engine. They're getting MORE power and BETTER handling and (most likely) the same or better fuel mileage from a cheaper engine that's built in the U.S. Doesn't sound like cost cutting this time.

akirby

Assuming Lincoln gives a rip about handling now that the LS is gone. They certainly did not build the Z for handling.

They still know how to build cars that handle well - they just decided to tune the Zephyr more for a soft ride than for good handling.

But they've changed that for the MKZ. It will have firmer suspension that handles more like the Fusion/Milan which is the right thing to do IMO. It should handle as good or better than any other FWD or FWD based AWD vehicle.

nvbanker

IMO, the Zephyr missed the mark for a Lincoln. Maybe the MKZ will hit closer - I hope so. Maybe it'll have a hood with strut supports. Maybe it'll have instruments that are attractive, instead of nostalgic, like Acura does, or Lincoln used to have in the Continental, and still has in the Navigator. But, it'll still have that high cowl that I can't see over....and I'm 6 feet tall. I don't like the back end of it at all, and the rest of the styling is just ok. It's a starter, baby, Lincoln, 3 series sized, but severely undersupported.

heyjewel

"They still know how to build cars that handle well "

You sure? They've let a lot of people go. More soon. You think they kept anyone from LS suspension group? I have my doubts.

So you're saying the Z will ride/handle more like the Fusion/Milan and that's an improvement over the Zephyr? And that it will then ride/handle as good or better than the competition? I'm not buyin it.

heyjewel

nv - all they changed was a bit of the grille, man. They didn't change the prop rods or the interior or ... They won't do any of that for 6 years, when they cancel it, if history teaches. That is if there IS a Fomoco in 6 years. News is pretty bad. F150 sales tanking now and that's their bread and butter.

akirby

They aren't getting rid of the engineers. One of the LS engineers that I know worked on the Zephyr, MKZ and MKX so yes - they still know what they're doing.

The Fusion is one of the best handling FWD sedans in the market - period. It's not an LS due to the heavy nose but compared to other FWD vehicles it's right near the top. And from what I hear the Edge and MKX will have similar handling.

The improvement over the Zephyr is that they made the Zephyr too soft and they noticed the complaints from the reviewers. So the MKZ is going back to a better handling, less cushy suspension tuning.

Remember - it's not competing against a BMW 3 series, so you can't compare it to that. Compare it to an Acura TL or Lexus ES350 and I think you'll find it handles as good if not better.

And let's see - the car has been out less than a year and they're putting in an entirely new engine, transmission and AWD system, revising the entire suspension plus new wheels and a tweaked front nose and a few other minor things like a MP3 audio port.

Seems we complain about Ford launching a vehicle and abandoning it but when they do something like this we still criticise them? Talk about a no-win situation.

Seems a few people want the MKZ to be a LS replacement, but it's not. Maybe the MKS will come close with a twin turbo 3.5L and AWD. But we may have to wait for an all new RWD sedan platform to be developed. In the meantime, Lincoln needs to sell cars and the MKZ and MKX will definitely help do that.

douglasr

...Mr. Fields scrapped the V8 Xc70 Yamaha/Volvo engine for the Mark S. Nothing else fits...the LS was too costly to produce which is one reason why it was not renewed. Ford Motor says that for Lincoln: "We have taken a step to differentiate the powertrain in the Mark Z, and we hope that we do that for Lincoln moving forward..." Now without an immediate V8 to offer the public in the upcoming Mark S/Horbury design, Ford engineers are going to have to scramble, and as I suggest elsewhere, they should Twin-Charge the new 3.5 Engine.

Rated at 263Bhp at introduction, Twin-Charging would give the V6 the power of a V8 without sacrificing fuel economy to any great degree. A 350Bhp Twin Charged V6 3.5 engine is entirely attainable goal, especially given the power increases enjoyed by VWAG with their Twin-Charged 2.0 Litre engines. The power curve remains fairly consistent even with an increase in engine displacement. 87Bhp is not out of reach for the engineering required to Twin Charge the engine, and realistically 100Bhp additional power is more likely. Now THAT would make the Mark S fly off the show-room floor, especially if it handled as well as it went, and stopped twice as fast to boot. So people wouldn't mind the rather toned down styling---presuming the production version is not far off the show car.

Carroll Shelby was busy burning rubber driving Mustangs off the production line earlier this year. He said: "There are some people that don't want me within 15 miles of Detroit..." and he added: "THOSE people want to make refrigerators..." With the fate of Lincoln hanging in the balance...Carroll could help Lincoln out: he could make the Mark Z and the S into hot-rod versions for sale, and do it bargain basement cheap. Some of 'Those People' surely are wandering the halls of the top floor of the Glass House, and if Lincoln is not to become synonomous with, or as exciting as a 'Hotpoint' appliance, then the time for action is (was yesterday), now. Give the car some gumption and people will line up to buy it, if its priced right. Given the reception for the latest iteration of Shelby enhanced Mustangs, Lincoln would have no problem with a Snake-Oil version of the Mark Z and S.

This could be the begining of a great page at Lincoln...one written not with a stunning eye-catching design, but an engine and chassis working in harmony, all blasting the doors off the competition. The clock is striking Midnight at Lincoln...as Wixom will close sooner than expected, mostly-likely before January 2, 2007. So Z and S must carry the chalice at Lincoln. Performance version available to catch the public eye until Lincoln has a serious contender ready to compete against its arch-rivals Cadillac/Imperial, and new nemisis---as Lexus, etc. Jackie Stewart among others could be enticed into a reprise of his previous advisory capactiy at Ford, and evaluate the chassis along with O'l Shel.... These boys could sneak past Mr. Leet's Axe, and save Lincoln for another day.

The 3.5 is a start, at 263Bhp it is only 8Bhp less than the original 289's V8 output of 271Bhp@5,800Rpm, and matches the output of the orignial 260 V8 Motor. So Mr. Shelby could well work his magic on this engine---a Shelby/Stewart inspired Lincoln might just do the trick.

DouglasR

(Sources: Edmunds Online, Automotive News, Vanity Fair July 2006; Shelby's Wildlife, Wallace A. Wyss, Motorbooks International 1977)

heyjewel

OK, so they still have 1 LS engineer.

Can u point me to the tests that comapre the Fusion to some of the better FWD sedans on the road? Say Acura, Honda, Lexus, Toyota, Volvo, Saab, etc etc?

Now your paragraph 1 conflicts with para 3. If they have these good engineer(s), why didn't they do the Zephyr right in the first place? I know, marketing screwed up (what else is new?:>) Were they building the Z for the blue hairs with the soft suspension?? (And the 'D-L' shifter) Weren't *THEY* smart enough to know it was too soft? They let the reviewers dictate the suspension? ***Would that they would respond like this to reviews of their STOOPID names and STOOPID advertising as well.***

Now about the major changes after a year? - I say they've screwed anyone who bought a 2006 Zephyr, which the redesign says was underpowered, poorly sprung, no MP3 and not so good looking relatively. Resale of the 06 Z will suffer. who will want one when they can get an 07 with proper power and suspension etc???

Wait for a new RWD platform for Lincoln??? Allen, if they started developing that now, what do ya think, release in 2014? Seriously, I think the next Lincoln RWD sedan will be called the "Godot". (Unless of course Volvo or Mazda engineers decide to develop one.)

heyjewel

"Ford Motor says that for Lincoln: "We have taken a step to differentiate the powertrain in the Mark Z, and we hope that we do that for Lincoln moving forward..."

I love that last part: "we *hope* to do that for Lincoln moving forward..." Now THAT's a corporate statement with balls, huh? We hope to keep our brand competitive...

dill

I am very disappointed in Lincoln not willing to put a V8 under the hood of this car not even as an option. Lincoln has severe image problems with potential luxury car/truck/suv buyers and this not offering a V8 is a huge setback for them. Cadillac/MB/VOLVO/BMW amoung others I'm sure I'm forgetting about at the monet all have V8's in their suv/crossover profiles - although Volvo is owned by Ford, they all offer V8 engines, if Lincoln ever wants to be taken seriously again in the US Lincoln has to offer a V8. When your direct US competition have V8's powering their suv/crossovers - there is no excuse why Lincoln can't do the same.

nvbanker

Last year, I would have agreed with you, dill, even have made the same statement you have made about Lincoln MUST have V-8s.....

However, gas being what it is and is going to be, perhaps a V-8 isn't as important anymore. I mean, I like mine, but it gets me 20mpg in town and 30mpg on the highway, going 85mph. That's the kind of V-8 they need, then I'll still go along with ya. :P

rockylee

nv, I think a twin turbo V-6 is the way to go. However I'm confident Lincoln will get the Yamaha V-8 which in this competitive market is about 35-65 hp. under-powered.

Rocky

ANT14

There will be some engine news coming up, that should help answer some questions...

akirby

I'm confident Lincoln will get the Yamaha V-8

It's already been reported that the yamaha V8 has been dropped.

heyjewel

Really? ...

I did read there might be a 'compact' V8 on the horizon ... But if so, why not wait for that to be announced b4 dropping the organ-maker's V8 engine?

Also read that there's been a 3.5V6 Twin Turbo F150 test mule out in Dearborn for sometime. Maybe we actually will see the TT. I think that'll bring more younger buyers into LM showrooms.

[Deleted User]

Did u mean to say MK S ?? Arent these names great?

Actually, this time I did mean the MKX (with no separations either )

I hope Ford is thinking in terms of a V8 that will fit front drive sedans at some point. The TT V-6 may be a hot set-up, but luxury brands without a V8 option tend to languish, no matter how good the 6 might be. Beyond that, not having a V8 for the MKS means there will be no V8 option at any point for the MKX or the Edge or the 500 or Montego. The Chrysler 300, Dodge Charger, Dodge Magnum, Chevrolet Impala, Pontiac Grand Prix, Buick Lucerne and all the Cadillacs offer V8s now.

Hot set-ups of smaller engines do tend to get good press, but they don't tend to sell in great numbers. Part of the difficulty is that by the time you turbocharge and intercool a smaller engine, it weighs a lot more than the non-hopped up version.

Further, gas mileage tends to be no better than that of bigger naturally aspirated engines. Witness the 2007 LS460. They are advertising it as having the power of a 5.5 with the economy of a 3.5. They are darn close. It gets better mileage than the MazdaSpeed 6 sedan, which is a manual.

akirby

I've heard that they're working on a compact V8 which I think will be a DOHC 4.2L (give or take) V8 based on the 3.5L V6. Should fit where the 4.6L won't and provide around 320 hp on regular fuel. Just my guess, but it would make sense. Unfortunately it's still 18-24 months away from production even if it's true.

rockylee

wow, I didn't get the memo I guess. :surprise:

Rocky

[Deleted User]

That would be great, if true. Ford remains committed to FWD/AWD architecture for at least a few more cycles, so having a range of engines that will fit will serve them well--even if delayed.

Plus, they could eventually use it in place of the 4.6 in some vehicles. The 4.2 could offer both better hp and better mileage.

rockylee

The MKS, will only get a 3.7 V-6 rated between 270-300 hp. :sick:

Rocky

[Deleted User]

So with a wimpy RL type engine and "me too" styling, it ain't gonna light up the marketplace.

ANT14

"The MKS, will only get a 3.7 V-6 rated between 270-300 hp"

No far from it actually, different components giving it 350+ HP.

rockylee

I hope you are right pal.

Rocky

nvbanker

He's right, rocky....trust me. He's a Ford engineer. He knows. Personally, I like the style. What I'm waiting for, is to see if the interior is also up to what I consider Lincoln standards, and not cheaped over like the new Navigator with those ridiculous "retro" guages. It's good to make the interior reminiscent of the 61 Continental - but it should remain updated for the times, like the 03-06 Navigator was. It was perfect IMO. But what they have put in the Zephyr and the 07 Gator I won't buy.

I'm sure you're listening, ANT. Pass it on, please!

heyjewel

Unfortunately, NV, from the pix I've seen the guages in the MK S are similar to the Nav/Z old style guages. They look like cr_p in the modern interior of the car. Well, they do go with the suede dash now that I think of it.

Also, I saw a photo of the shifter in the MK S and it has just enough detents to house the new Ford idea of 'D-L' being the only selectable forward gears. BLEEECH. You listening, ANT? Can ANYONE imagine a sporty looking car (the MKS is that) with a twin-turbo 350HP engine and a shifter that allows only D-L as driver choices? That would be LAUGHABLE.

rockylee

Thanx NV.

I will really like the MKS, if it looks like the concept. I can careless if its a V-6 or V-8 as long as it delivers the "goods" in performance. Is that 3.7 a turbo-charged engine or naturally aspirated. I don't know a whole heck alot about the engines from Ford. I was most impressed with the features the MKS had. It still needs a few more gadgets like a very refined voice recognition system and other features that enhance the driving experience. I really like the suede interior because it's something different. OTOH, if GM, and Ford, were to merge I'd use my GenFord discount perhaps on a Volvo S80 since I love that car alot. Togeather GM, and Ford, I think would be a powerhouse company. It would take genious at the top-levels of management to distinguish the brands enough so they don't directly compete against each other. I do believe it could be done but at a hefty price. However the reward could be stealing vast quanity's of market-share and maybe the Toyota turn-around would be the new news. It only took GM, about a yr. or so for us to start talking more positive news about them. Lincoln could be the RWD Buick brand and I'd leave buick as my FWD brand to be able to keep both. Cadillac would go way up market to compete with Mercedes and Lexus Lincoln could fill the void where Cadillac used to be. I'm excited about the idea but don't think it will come to light.

Rocky

rockylee

heyjewel, how much do you like the MKS ?

Rocky

[Deleted User]

I also like the suede dash. It is one of the things that is NOT "me too" about the MKS.

Now, if they could just modify the side styling, so it doesn't look so much like an Infiniti M/2007 Infiniti G/Lexus GS/Passat/Lucerne, then maybe I could like the outside of it too.

displacedtexan

The more I look at it, the more it's growing on me. The C pillar is still very Infinity M class, and the rearend is very last gen Olds Aurora. But overall, I'm liking the exterior. I also like the interior, even though the dash is somewhat Acura RL-ish. It's straight forward.

I hope they build it. I hope they don't dumb it down. I hope they put a 370hp motor.

I hope I can afford it.

[Deleted User]

I hope too. But a "me too" V6 AWD, based on a FWD, based on a Volvo cannot be Lincoln's "flagship" or Lincoln is doomed. It may very well be a cool addition to the fleet, but let's get some other Lincoln stuff out there besides a rebadged Ford Edge, the decent but anonymous MKZ and the awful redesign of the Navi.

A rebodied TC would be one ticket to more sales, especially one that incorporated suicide doors, more hp, and some tasteful flash.

displacedtexan

A fleet more like what they used to have: a good Navi, a traditional RWD V8 TC, a FWD Continental, a proper Mark.

Much of my initial disappointment with the MKS came from comparing it to the 2002 Conti concept. That had loads of Lincoln DNA.

I wonder, though, if a hardtop with the suicide doors can be made to meet current side impact standards and retain the elegant look? I think a hardtop with rear opening doors would be hard pressed to meet it, hence the pillared hardtop / sedan configuration seen today.

nvbanker

It can be made to have suicide doors, but it's gonna cost them to do it. Some interesting interlocks would be necessary to prevent accidental opening of the rear doors whilst in motion.

Since the decision to kill the Town Car have suddenly been reversed by Mr. Mulally (way to go!), evidently it's going to be refit to meet the 2008 DOT requirements for gas tanks, and it could be fixed pretty easily. The running gear is superior - the engine can be be bumped to 300hp with a chip change. What it needs is a refresh at least outside, and a total revamp inside, to make it more like the Zephyr/Z, but with CONTEMPORARY GUAGES PLEASE!! Like the Navigator had through 06, and the Continental had from 95 until death, and like my Lexus has. Actually, if they would take a look at the Acura guages, that would be ok too.

I think it would still be quite the hit, despite its age, in the retail market. People get old every day, and if Warren Buffet can drive one (it's for sale now, if you're interested), so can I. It just has to be a WOW car like the 96 Town Car was, which IMO, was the recent high water mark for the Town Car.

I'd love to strangle the designer who did the 98. :confuse:

akirby

The TC is going to remain a niche vehicle outside Livery duty.

What Lincoln needs (and I hope they're already working on) is a new modern full size RWD platform for their new flagship in addition to the MKZ and MKS. Best of both worlds - hi-tech V6 model with AWD that will appeal to Acura/Lexus buyers and a more traditional American styled V8 powered RWD platform that would replace the TC/CV/GM models.

bumpy

There is the Australian Fairmont. A LHD version of that with a modern luxury interior and a good DOHC V8 would take care of things pretty well.

displacedtexan

I remember looking at the Fairmont two years ago whilst in Oz and thinking that the Aussies get treated to a far superior interior, RWD, big HP, and that it wasn't fair it wasn't brought over here.

displacedtexan

It just has to be a WOW car like the 96 Town Car was, which IMO, was the recent high water mark for the Town Car.

I agree. I always liked that body style and associated it with true, big American-style luxury. The later body style I always thought looked kind of like a beetle, or maybe a squashed turtle shell. It looks better with the wider grill now, but still not as good as the more formal '96.

scootertrash

About that Fairmont; Wow, a 5.4 V-8! Sadly, we're not worthy.

Check this, McS fans:
MKS Preview

(Still liiks like an Infiniti with Olds Aurora taillights to me)