Lincoln MKS

[Deleted User]

Well, yours is certainly one opinion. It may be a good one, even if I don't agree.

Mine is it doesn't matter if people are old enough to remember designs on which a new concept is based...as long as the concept is a compelling presence. Chrysler 300, for example, harkens back to several designs, but manages to look as current as can be.

The new Mustang is another example of that. If the 1967 Mustang had not existed, the new one would still be selling well. Same with the Ford GT. Yes it looks a lot like a 1966 GT40, but would be a hot commodity even without the old one existing.

Lincoln had a look that could have been continued...like Mercedes, which has developed and updated a look for generations. The 1960 Lincoln had reached the height of tacky (like many 58-59 Detroit models did) and the 61 was so tasteful in contrast it was hard to believe it came from the same company. Eventually, the look morphed into the late 70's behemoths with square rear doors and opera windows and bumpers big enough for a locomotive.

The new 1990 Lincoln Town Car was current for that era, but also harkened back to earlier Lincoln designs. The 98 had some daring lines for a big pig, but didn't copy anything. Since then, it has been totally neglected and has become beyond passe.

The 2002 Lincoln Continental concept had the look Chrysler nailed. It did take 1960's cues, but it also had very abbreviated front and rear overhangs (like the 300) with a very long wheelbase (also like the 300). It would have sold, but Lincoln lost its nerve.

Doesn't really matter now, as its chance to be produced is over. And regardless of what Lincoln now has in the pipeline, nothing stands out quite the same way as some of the Continentals and Marks they were able to spring on the world in the past.

driverdm

The difference is Mercedes designs evolved with time and changed. THe Mark 9 concept just looked far too retro. I think the Zephyr and Aviator concepts were perfect. The Aviator had styling cues from yester years but still looked compeltely modern. And the Zephyr,... I would be in one if they had built the concept as is.

nvbanker

The difference between Mercedes and Lincoln is consistency. Ford has never really had any, from regime to regime. What I see Lincoln doing now, just scares me to death.

driverdm

I'd buy the MKS if nicely equipped like the TL standard and at a good price.

I would have bought a Zephyr if it were brought out the same as it was shown in concept.

My opinion of the MKX is still out. If it starts at 32K, it may be a bargain. It needs features and iptions that more differentiate it from the Edge.

[Deleted User]

I also think the Aviator concept was great. It said Lincoln in crossover mode. On the other hand, the MKX says Ford Edge with a Lincoln grill.

kjnorman

The Mark 9 concept is certainly a fantastic looking design, but it looks better placed on an X-men movie rather than my drive. I would not buy one. Its too "faddish" and I think its retro-modern styling would date very quickly, and after an initial bust of enthusiastic purchacing sales would tank.

Of course that is only my opinion.

Personally, I like the look of the Mark S (similar to one of my favorite cars at the moment the Acura RL), and if I had the money I would seriously consider one.

driverdm

YES!!!! I agree 100% times another 100%. Truer words have not been spoken on this board in a long time. Down with the retro rip offs except for the Mustang. Insulting the Mustang should be illegal.

heyjewel

Scrapped. According to new reports only 3 months after the MKS was introduced Ford is now thinking of scrapping it with no replacement. 2 more plants closing and mucho layoffs in Chicago because the 500/Montego/Freestyle cars aren't selling.

Also read in Motor Trend that the MKS design has been giving them fits anyway in that they're finding out that they can't seem to get "American Luxury car Proportions" out of the Volvo chassis the thing is supposed to be built on. Duh.

Memo to Lincoln:

If customers want a Volvo, they can buy a Volvo.
If they want a Mazda, they can buy a Mazda.
But if they want a Lincoln, what the heck do they buy?
Apparently the answer to the question will soon be: a Cadillac or a Buick.

Signed - an LS owner.

[Deleted User]

Well. I for one am happy to hear it. Just saw the new Altima, and here is another car with the looks and proportions (albeit smaller) of the Japanese-inspired MKS. Give us something Lincoln-inspired or don't bother.

BTW, how is it a division like Jeep, which has experienced a significant drop in market share can introduce FOUR new models in 2007? Two of them are based on the Dodge Calibur, but neither share any of its body panels. You folks at Lincoln: it is possible to scramble and come up with new products quickly in the face of falling sales. Just do it.

brucelinc

I read the MT blurb but I hadn't heard it was dead. In any case, that is one of the problems of a FWD platform. How do you move the front wheels far enough forward to overcome the front overhang and still maintain a low hoodline? Seems like they might of suspected that problem sooner.

I see no point in any Lincoln passenger car other than the MKZ until they have the proper RWD platform. AWD doesn't impress me, either. I see it as a bandaid approach to make a FWD act more like a RWD but it adds as many drawbacks as it does benefits.

nvbanker

Money is part of the reason. The other is the risk takers at Ford are gone, it would seem.

Personally, I think the demise of the MKS is bad news. I've had a Volvo S-80, and it was a choice sedan, a real comfortable driver's car. I'd have another one. A Town Car based on that platform would be just fine, IMO.

akirby

Nobody said it was dead, just that it wouldn't be made in Chicago.

scootertrash

Ford is Lucy holding the football and their fans are Charlie Brown.
Somehow they got it in their corporate head that it is good for their image to show beautiful prototypes and then make a ugly step-sister version or promise wonderful things and then completely flake out (SVT)

Again, has anyone at Ford ever heard of under-promise and over-deliver?

nvbanker

I don't think Bill knows Carl Sewell well....probably hasn't read his book.

[Deleted User]

If the dubious MKS concept is now in trouble, does that mean the much-delayed Town Car replacement is now off the table too, i.e., delayed some more while the people who sign off on these things continue to dither and equivocate?

Geez, guys, give the TC a total re-skin in the meantime! They could cut quite a bit off the front and rear overhangs and still provide the same room and trunk space. So what if the chassis is ancient? It is even worse to have an ancient chassis with no upgrades under an outdated body...and no prospects of replacement for three more years! By that time, Lincoln will be toast.

scootertrash

I guess it took German ownership of Chrysler to prove a stunningly amazing fact- Americans actually like RWD v-8 cars. Who'd of thunk it.

There's no reason they can't come up with a fresh body on that still-servicable Jimmy Carter-era chassis.

But knowing Ford, they will develop a new chassis, and find a way to put the old body on it to save a few bucks.

nvbanker

IMO, the outside of the Town Car is alright. They can re-do it, and should if they're going to keep it. But where I think it lacks terribly, and the reason I don't have one is, A) The bland, bland interior, with unsupportive seats, navigation a rarity, and a design made for the 60's on the dash. The car has a weak air conditioner. It's cold, but no volume of air for the cabin. In the southern states, it's insufficient for summer, and unacceptable. It has been this way since the redesign in 98. I don't know why the HVAC engineer allowed this to happen, and I don't know why they haven't fixed it. Ford knows about it, but doesn't seem to care.

Ergo: I am driving a Lexus sedan now, instead of the Town Car. I'd rather have a Lincoln, if they made them like they did in 97.....

[Deleted User]

You are right...the exterior of the TC is not its worst feature, but the amenities and interior sure suck. Regarding the exterior style, the overhangs are way too long for a 2007 era, rear drive 117 inch wheelbase car. Seems to me that could be fixed quicker and cheaper than figuring out how to make the MKS and its alleged bigger sister into American luxury sedans.

nvbanker

The overhangs on the T/C are huge - but even as cheap as the Town Car is - it still commands enormous respect at the Valet. It just has that big presence, which is hard to duplicate in a shorter version. I'd be ok either way, unless it looked like a 500. Know what I mean?

scootertrash

Forget the "Bloated Volvo" (wasn't that the name of a band...?) which is all the MKS amounts to.

How about the Continental concept body on the TC chassis; a Ford version that evokes a 64 Galaxie 500 and maybe since we're at it, a Mercury Turnpike Cruiser with a breezeway rear window?

Put a Cobra engine in it and take back the V-8 American sedan market (and the police market) from the Germans at Chrysler who seem to have a better understanding of what Americans want.

savetheland

Who said MKS is gone? All MT said was - they have trouble in designing MKS because Ford 500 has wrong proportions to make Lincoln out of it. They will make MKS and extended version one way or another – they simply have no choice and no RWD platform (arguably). Okay it is called bad management they could have everything if were just division of DaimlerChrysler or Toyota - daddy would help out. But they have no rich daddy – only a couple of spoiled pretentious and always hungry kids like Jaguar and Land Rover.

Town car is hardly fixable – too outdated. There was a lot of progress since 1979.

driverdm

Has anyone that criticizes the look of this car actually seen it in the flesh? I saw it for the first time at the NY Auto Show. There were many cars there. The new G35, the new Lexus LS, the new Saturn Aura, the Saturn Outlook, the new Lexus ES. They also had other cars like the new Merc E-Class, the Lexus GS450h, the BMW M5, etc. I absolutely loved the Lincoln over all of them. I own a Mazda6, am seriously considering the brand new Altima or the Mazda CX-7. On the upper end I love the new G35 and have always loved the G35. So I am not domestic biased. The Lincoln, in the flesh looks phenominal. They could have easily said it was $60K.

mooseman1

Mooseman1 wrote:

This motor also previously produced 232hp in other uses, namely the LS and the Type-S. Anyhow, if you'd like to wager on whether we see hp increases on the 3.5L Cyclone and even the 4.4 before launch I'd be happy to wager a "pride" point.

Came to collect on my pride point.

BTW, Zephyr is outselling the G35 sedan by almost 20% right now, in case anyone is still clinging to the "it must be RWD to be successful" argument.

scootertrash

And how old is the G35?

[Deleted User]

Yes, let's see how the updated 07's do against one another.

There are other RWD models out there doing much better this year (the CTS comes to mind). BTW, the G35 is not being marketed with over $4,300 in incentives and average discounts.

For myself, I prefer FWD, being often in ice and snow in winter. Still, the real drivers' cars tend to be RWD (or AWD).

I also note that modern RWD cars tend to have shorter overhangs and longer wheelbases as a result of more rearward placement of the engine. That tends to impart better balance. Even so, FWD cars could be engineered better with less beaky fronts, and less of the engine compartment riding in front of the front wheels. The Passat is really starting to take the overhang to an extreme. While the car grew several inches since 1998, it only grew a fraction of an inch in wheelbase.

mooseman1

#283 of 283 Re: LIncoln and Ford Are Doing It Correctly [scootertrash] by gregg_vw May 07, 2006 (7:09 am)
Replying to: scootertrash (May 06, 2006 6:49 pm)
Yes, let's see how the updated 07's do against one another.

There are other RWD models out there doing much better this year (the CTS comes to mind). BTW, the G35 is not being marketed with over $4,300 in incentives and average discounts.

For myself, I prefer FWD, being often in ice and snow in winter. Still, the real drivers' cars tend to be RWD (or AWD).

I also note that modern RWD cars tend to have shorter overhangs and longer wheelbases as a result of more rearward placement of the engine. That tends to impart better balance. Even so, FWD cars could be engineered better with less beaky fronts, and less of the engine compartment riding in front of the front wheels. The Passat is really starting to take the overhang to an extreme. While the car grew several inches since 1998, it only grew a fraction of an inch in wheelbase.

Lessee...April Sales

BMW 3 Series sedan - 9,023- RWD
Acura TL - 7,975 - FWD
Lexus IS - 4,715- RWD
Cadilac CTS - 4,612- RWD
Lexus ES - 4,603- FWD
Mercedes C Class - 4,037- RWD
Audi A4 - 3,623- FWD
Lincoln Zephyr - 3,378- FWD
Infiniti G35 sedan - 2,831- RWD
Saab 9-3 - 2,144- FWD
Volvo S60 - 1,892- FWD
Jaguar X-Type - 407- AWD

...looks to be a pretty fair mix. Don't know what your econ professor taught you in class, but the point of a car company is not to make cars, the point is to make money. Even if Ford is dumping $4k in each car through it's financial arm, it must make economic sense considering they originally planned to sell only 20k Zephyrs a year. If they planned on selling 20k, then they planned on making a decent ROI on 20k of them. Selling 40k, even with 4k on each in low interest/no interest loans, Ford must be making money on them.

So, the question is, should Ford have done the smart less aggressive move and targeted the plenty successful TL and ES, which would require significantly less invest than GM has dumped into Caddy, or dump billions into trying to develop a new platform during the middle of a financial crisis?

Ford looks to have made the right decision, regardless of what the experts in here claim. The RWD Cadillac sales down 8.3%, Lincoln car sales up 49% in April, Lincoln full line sales up 11%. This without the MKX, the upgraded MKZ, he new Nav which all should be here within 6 months.

By then, Lincoln could be challenging Caddy for the US luxury crown. RWD is not a requirement for success in the luxury market. Good design, good vehicle dynamics, customer satsifaction, and quality construction are.

scootertrash

"the point of a car company is not to make cars, the point is to make money."

You sound like Roger Smith.

"Even if Ford is dumping $4k in each car through it's financial arm, it must make economic sense"

If that plan makes sense then please explain Ford's (and GM's) financial, and market share performance.

Check out this novel approach:

Make cars that people want to buy.
You won't have to bribe the public to accept them and your company will end up actually making a profit.

Crazy idea, huh?

akirby

You act like nobody else has subsidized leases. That's where the big incentives are coming from, not cash on the hood. I think Lincoln is purposely trying to get people into a 2 or 3 year lease on a Zephyr which creates an automatic market in 2 or 3 years for a new MKS or updated MkZ.

mooseman1

#285 of 286 Re: LIncoln and Ford Are Doing It Correctly [mooseman1] by scootertrash May 07, 2006 (9:49 am)
Replying to: mooseman1 (May 07, 2006 9:37 am)
"the point of a car company is not to make cars, the point is to make money."

You sound like Roger Smith.

We'll see by years end. If Lincoln sales aren't up 20% across the board in December, I'll eat my hat.

"Even if Ford is dumping $4k in each car through it's financial arm, it must make economic sense"

If that plan makes sense then please explain Ford's (and GM's) financial, and market share performance.

Easy. They spent all their money protecting their very profitable truck market. For 12 years they beat every body, including the mighty Toyota, which is pitching thousands of incentives on the Tundra and still selling 1/8 the number of trucks. Gas prices spiked and cast a serious pall on their money parade. Actually I'm very impressed with how quickly Ford and GM have responded with new product.

Check out this novel approach:

Make cars that people want to buy.
You won't have to bribe the public to accept them and your company will end up actually making a profit.

Crazy idea, huh?

Yes, by all means. But you make the assumption that a) the only reason or over-riding reason people are buying the Zephyr is because they are bribed, and b) other manufacturers are not adding incentives ($299 lease on a CTS, 2.9% financing) to their "superior" RWD cars. The Zephyr sits on lots about 30 days. Do you think Lincoln is pushing them because they have to, or because it meets a long term plan, eg. amortizing the the cost of the Zephyr per unit before the MKZ arrives? I know, all that talk of accounting must be dry when all you wanna say is 'Lincoln is teh dumb sux0rs for makn it FWD, LOL ROFL!!!111!!oneoneone!!!11"

You seem to fall under the heading of "if it doesn't meant fulfill my set of priorities then it must fulfill no one's set of priorities." Of course, when Lincoln is selling 200k plus cars and trucks next year, you'll look like chicken little. But at least you can vainly cling to your belief that your way is the right way in face of evidence to the contrary.

scootertrash

If Lincoln can find a way to sell 200k cars, I'll be very glad to be wrong and hope I will have a chance to eat crow.

Meanwhile, I stand by the fact that every accountant that has ever gotten their hands on a car company and arrogantly said: "the point of a car company is not to make cars, the point is to make money" has ruined that company.

Face the fact, successful car companies with excellent sales, profits and reputations all focus on the CAR, and the profits follow.

The ones that focus on dressing up obsolete products to appear competitive, use every penny pinching scheme the bean counters can dream up to squeeze each cent out of the car (see: prop rod and D-L shifter) and endless subsides and fleet sales all end up with enormous losses and shrinking market share.

If you produce what people want, you will make money. Simple.

heyjewel

"There are lies, damned lies and then there are statistics." - can't recall who.

But you've proven the point well by pointing out that sales of the Zephyr are up 49% in April from last year, when they were rare as hens teeth.

And you made the case for RWD with your sales figures. After all, the top seller by a large margin is RWD; 3 of the top 5 are RWD as are 4 of the top 6. The FWDs make up the bottom tier.

qbrozen

BMW 3 Series sedan - 9,023- RWD
Acura TL - 7,975 - FWD
Lexus IS - 4,715- RWD
Cadilac CTS - 4,612- RWD
Lexus ES - 4,603- FWD
Mercedes C Class - 4,037- RWD
Audi A4 - 3,623- FWD
Lincoln Zephyr - 3,378- FWD
Infiniti G35 sedan - 2,831- RWD
Saab 9-3 - 2,144- FWD
Volvo S60 - 1,892- FWD
Jaguar X-Type - 407- AWD

I'm just curious, but did you pull out the AWD models of these cars you've marked either FWD or RWD that can be had with AWD?

rockylee

I might just have to have one. This Lincoln MKS looks like a Acura, only much better. This is what the RL could of been IMHO.

Rocky

[Deleted User]

Agreed. Now, why should a Lincoln look like a Japanese car?

nvbanker

Hmmmm, I don't love the looks of the RL, but I like it. The fact that Lincoln is going FWD for the base, (AWD notwithstanding) is the wrong direction if it's going to be a competitive Luxury car in the world. If it's going to be more of a masses car, then that's fine. It appears, it's heading to be either a cheaper, or more expensive Volvo - I can't tell which yet. Based on the Zephyr, I'd say cheaper.

ANT14

The MKS is undergoing some changes than what was originally expected. Mark Fields is holding off on the vehicle till he goes through it thoroughly, so expect some changes than what you originally saw. This includes engines as well...

rockylee

I heard that a few days ago...

Rocky

heyjewel

Has he decided it should look like an Alero instead of an Aurora?

Someone should go thru Lincoln's ENTIRE lineup with a hacksaw.

I await patiently the public's response to the new 2007 Navigator. Not competitive from an engine or fuel consumption POV and UGLY as a pimply-faced teen with braces outside and dumbed-down from the best interior to a 70's-era Versailles inside. All IMHO as an owner of an '04 Nav which is a great vehicle. But time marches on. I think the new GM big SUVs will blow the Expy/Nav away. Too bad. Were I in the market today, I'd choose a Chevy Tahoe over any of the Ford SUVs.

nvbanker

"Were I in the market today, I'd choose a Chevy Tahoe over any of the Ford SUVs."

I wouldn't, George, because under that fairly attractive exterior and interior the new GMs have, is no change. Same old technology as before, pushrods, throttle bodies and 4 speed transmissions. Although I share your fears on the 07 Navigator - I would rather have the Expedition still. Also, have you noticed that GM made their SUVs much more Fordlike this time around? They're taller, and squarer.

nvbanker

A V-8 possibly, ANT???? That would be Sweeeet! I like the looks of the MKS.

ANT14

Thats currently the situation at hand, a 4.4L Yamaha V8, which might only make 315-325HP, and is limited in availability, or a 3.5L Turbocharged 6 with 350HP+ with more advanced technology.

nvbanker

I know I'm a dinosaur - but I just like my Luxury cars to have 8 cylinders, or more. There's something about the smoothness, refinement and exhaust note of a V-8 that makes me feel like I'm in something special. I'm sure the 3.5L will be an awesome engine, and more efficient. But it won't feel the same to me..... :sick:

driverdm

The new Sierra IS a Ford Superduty child as far as design goes down to the split horizontal head lights. Interestingly enough though GM is taking Ford's designs and doing with them what Ford should be doing with them. There is no reason that the new Navi should look the way it does. Why is it that GM seems to have better designers? All the new GM designs seem to be knockouts. I thought Ford had the guy from Mazda now. He led Mazda to some of the best designs in teh industry, with even Mercedes doing a little copying of Mazda design now in days. Perhaps the designs we are seeing now are a product of the guy that he relaced so I will give him some time. I think the MKS will sell well despite what people are saying about its styling. I think it is doing to the Japanese what GM is doing to Ford in the truck market. It is taking their design and making it better with a much better package. The MKS interior is absolutely a winner. Look at the new stuff from the Japanese; the new G35, the new IS, the new LS, or the new S-Class, or the new Lexus GS, and compare to the Lincoln interior and I'd take the Lincoln all day long and twice on weekends. Lincoln is known for nice concepts that turn into boring production models i.e. Zephyr. If we could only track down the guy that waters the stuff down before it hits the market and speak to him with a set of leather belts, Lincoln would again return to its heyday.

rockylee

A Really Great Post pal. :shades:

If Ford, wants me to buy one, they better leave it pretty much alone. :mad:

Rocky

buckwheat

The future of Lincoln: http://tinyurl.com/plnvp

[Deleted User]

If only the MKS has the proportions in the accompanying drawing, and not the more bulbous look of the similar prototype at the auto shows. The 500 actually looked pretty sleek too in the pre-production drawings, but Ford managed to eradicate that in the metal.

So, maybe there is hope that the MKS can actually be a headturner, and not merely good looking or high end Japanese clone. Still, Lincoln will have only two sedans among their 2008-09 offerings, and one of them is a thinly disguised Ford Fusion. There will be no large sedan, and there will be no coupe or convertible offering. While MKZ/MKS may be a good start, but no way does that compete with Cadillac (CTS, DTS, STS, plus V versions, plus XLR), or Audi or BMW or even Chrysler. More product plans needed. Quick.

driverdm

I agree but disagree. I saw the MKS in person. I am a 24 year old business professional and I would buy that car over the STS in a heartbeat. I don't like the A6, and keep in mind I was just about to put my check down on a VW last week but am holding off. I currently own a Mazda6. I would buy the MKS over the 5-Series as well. You want to talk about styling that evokes emotion. The 5 Series evokes a lot of bad ones. In person the MKS has a serious presence that those cars do not. I say again look at the new Japanese offerings even up to the $100K Lexus LS and I believe the Lincoln has an exterior and interior design that at least is comparible. Supposedly Mark Fields changed the MKS design to be more sleek so maybe that drawing is a little closer to the production model than we think. I hope that my pay increases to a point where I can buy one.

rockylee

Thanx for the link pal.

Rocky

pnewby

According to an article in the local paper this morning, the MKS will be the 1st FMC vehicle to no longer have a gas cap. Supposed to use a self sealing flap, derived from Nascar usage.

brucelinc

If you are a dinosaur, I will also wear that badge proudly. I prefer a V8, too. However, I have never been too excited about having a Yamaha heart beating under the hood of my Lincoln. In a recent S80 test, Motor Trend referred to the engine noise as "high and whiney for a V8." Not exactly a ringing endorsement. Good things have been said about that engine in other tests, though.

Here is my concern: Perhaps they will use the normally aspirated 3.5 in the base MKS and make the twin turbo version a sport model equipped with stiff suspension and super low profile tires. If so, each would have a small market niche but neither would suit me or a lot of other folks who are really ready to plunk down the cash.

I think a lot of buyers serious about buying a Lincoln expect a quiet and compliant, yet controlled, ride. I am not talking blue-hair soft here, folks. But I am not talking BMW M3 harsh, either. In addition, I think there is an expectation of strong, yet refined, performance. I could live with a high-output V6 if it retains the refinement and they don't make me buy it as part of a sport package that destroys the ride.

I would love to see a version of the Corporate Modular V8 in the MKS but it is probably way to bulky. I love the Jag AJ V8 but it is likely too spendy.

In the meantime, my old LS V8 just keeps the smile on my face.