Will they put the duratec35 in MKS? And Will they offer a FWD version? The direct competitions (A6/S80/GS) all have V/I6 models, no? If MKS will be a strict V8/AWD sedan, I can see it starts at $38,900~$39,900 and goes up to $45k+.
"I could see buyers cross shopping the S80 with Acura RL, Lexus GS, Mercedes E-class and Audi A6. I just don't see the MKS playing in that league."
What you are talking about? Acura RL is a glorified Honda Accord and Volvo is premium FWD car - never was a luxury, especially in Europe. Never was anywhere close to Mercedes or BMW.
I cannot see why Volvo might be more desirable that Lincoln. In my view there are luxury cars like Cadillac, Mercedes, BMW and Lexus. And near luxury crowd like Volvo, Lincoln, Acura. Infinity, Jaguar and Audi are between.
Chrysler and Buick have nothing to do with luxury – just premium cars. They better beat Toyota and Nissan.
Yes, akirby, they put a lot of changes in the 2003...but unlike when GM changes their utes, Lincoln and Ford did NOT change the body sheet metal, minor front and rear clip differences aside. Ford continues to use the 1999 windshield, window glass, greenhouse, doors, the overall overall body shape. They will continue to use all these things over again in 2007.
All the changes they did make (and will make on the 2007) are laudable, but you cannot make sales conquests with an old looking body. I just hope they will give the Navigator a truly updated body soon...and not keep hiding all the changes underneath and inside. Over the years, that approach has practically killed both Ranger and Windstar...oops, Freestar sales (both down more than 65%).
Savetheland, I am talking about pricing and buyer perception. No matter what the roots of the Acura RL, the MSRP is $49K - $53K - near the range of others I mentioned. I have no idea what actual transaction prices are for it but I don't see the Mark S in that MSRP range.
As for Volvo, "never was" doesn't necessarily equate to "can't be." There is tone from the Volvo information that they aspire to be considered along with premium German brands.
As for my reference to Buick and Chrysler: A loaded Lucerne or 300C prices out around $37K. My point is that the Mark S can be priced closer to that level than the $50K class.
But you have to be careful making drastic changes to a successful vehicle. You run the risk of alienating your current customer base and you never know if you'll gain enough new customers to offset it.
The Ranger is in a shrinking market segment so why spend big bucks making over a vehicle that probably won't sell any more than the current vehicle?
yeah, well, if you put aside the engine, tranny, awd, suspension, interior, sheet metal, size, etc ... ummmm... oh, and ONLY take into account they are from the same parent company, then sure! Kinda like how a Jag XKR is a glorified Ford Focus, right?
there are luxury cars like Cadillac, Mercedes, BMW and Lexus. And near luxury crowd like Volvo, Lincoln, Acura.
I think this might be the first time I've heard anyone state a Caddy is upmarket from a Lincoln, and competes with benz and bmw. I also wouldn't put Jag as a 'tweener, personally. It deserves to be up there with bmw and benz. I don't find a tweener class at all, as a matter of fact. Infinity belongs in the same class as Lincoln, Caddy, Acura, and Volvo.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Akirby, I must respectfully disagree. Ford has done some of its best conquests by introducing great changes and must haves. The original Navigator far outsold the original Escalade. Then Cadillac started building on the Escalade personality and it zoomed past Navigator. The 2003 Navigator changes were excellent, as far as they went, but the styling changes were minor and hard to differentiate at a glance.
You run the risk of losing sales by being too conservative and the 2003 changes (introducing the independent rear suspension was a terrific improvement) did not recapture the crown for Navigator.
ANT, I have seen the new Navigator front end and it is quite nice...but it is attached to the same body as the 2003 and the 1998. I would love to see that great front end on a restyled body that reduces the "heaviness" of the side glass from the rear door to the tailgate, and/or at least changes the tired shape of the rear door glass area.
Cadillac changed and improved the greenhouse and every body panel in its 2007 Escalade, as it also did in the previous iteration. I don't think they have alienated their customers at all.
This has gotten far from MKS, hey? I do hope Lincoln re-thinks their pricing structure, and introduces the MKS in the mid-30's price range to start. Lincoln no longer is in the same arena as Cadillac. At this point, Cadillac does share some platforms, but it does not share any of its car bodies with other divisions, like the Fusion/Zephyr example. (Even in the large SUV field, Escalade includes more differentiation from Yukon/Tahoe than, say, the Armada and the QX56 do.) Cadillac has a unified look, a broad price range, and some exclusive and pricey V models. Get some Lincoln volume back, and then consider taking Cadillac on directly again.
Meanwhile, I hope the general body style of the MKS, bland as it might be, will be exclusive to Lincoln. Platform sharing is a wonderful thing, if it can produce both the S80 and the MKS. It's a start toward a new Lincoln division.
Well, it may be an afterthought or a gimmick – for some. I have no problem with that.
And if / when I actually wanted to record absolute, ultimate 0 – 60 or quarter mile times, I understand that I should leave my automatic in “full auto.” mode.
But here are a few examples of what the LS manumatic (for example) did that most other, ‘regular’ automatics cannot do:
1 – To elaborate a bit upon a recent post here: I can pick and hold a specific gear. For example, I can lock my trans. in third gear, and it will not shift. Period. From 0 mph to well over any US speed limit (at least 80 - again, this is in third gear), regardless of throttle position, rpm or vehicle speed. My 2003 Lincoln LS would allow me to start from rest in either third or second or first - and stay in whatever gear I select, until I shift. From 0 to whatever mph = fuel / spark cutoff in that gear. (If placed in fourth or in fifth, it will downshift to first as speed drops below about 5 mph.)
I use this ‘lock in second or lock in third’ feature often during my evening commute out of Mid-Town Atlanta. No shifting. Plenty of torque to accelerate, since with 6 lanes of stop / start traffic, not much acceleration is required – or possible. No shifts. Smooth.
2 – I can force also an upshift at less than max. rpm when accelerating at (or close to) WOT.
I find that many times I enjoy the thrust of full throttle, but choose to shift well before max. rpm / red line, as I am just enjoying myself, not racing. (And for the few times when I am REALLY in a hurry, and want max. rpm shifts, I did just leave it in D5. The computer and trans. work together very well under these circumstances to provide a very quick, but not brutal or harsh shift – at exactly the right time.)
3 – On the highway, at typical freeway speeds of 65 – 80, I could ‘lock’ the trans in fifth gear. Thus, regardless of throttle position, it will not downshift. I will certainly see TCC unlock / lock if I am aggressive with the throttle, but it will not downshift to fourth or third gear.
4 – I could also hold fourth or fifth at speeds where the automatic would generally downshift one or 2 gears even at light throttle or coasting. As mentioned above, it would allow fourth or fifth to be held down to below 10 mph. In traffic, moving slowly, varying speed somewhat, but not stop and go, this works very well for me.
Again, I am not suggesting that these specific attributes mean anything to every potential buyer – just to me. And since manumatic functioning is now appearing on almost anything with sporting intent, regardless of whether or not either a ‘real’ (as in: row through an H pattern) manual and / or a Sequential Manual (as BMW and others are offering) is offered as well. There seems to be a market for this. In fact, one of the few things that surprised me when it did NOT make production on the 2005 V8 Mustang GT (and 2006, it appears) is manumatic function for the automatic. The trans. is the same as in my Lincoln LS . . . Odd.
Most automatics with a 4 (or D4) or 3 or 2 or 1 position on the trans. shifter gate (or a separate O/D lockout button) will typically allow the trans. to shift as it thinks best among any of the gears up to the number shown. Meaning, in 4 or D4 it will typically shift through 1 – 2 – 3 – 4 as required, just never upshift to fifth. And in 3 it will utilize 1 – 2 – 3, but never 4 (or 5, if the trans. has that many gears) regardless of speed or throttle position.
And there are variations. I owned a 2002 German 8 cylinder sedan that had the 5-speed Tiptronic. This had 2 specific features that were interesting and useful – to me.
A – If the maximum rpm was reached in a lower gear, it would upshift even in manumatic mode. (As opposed to bouncing off the rev limiter, as most others will.) And still remain in manumatic mode.
I found this useful as I could leave it in manumatic mode (as I typically drove it) and if I was accelerating hard in 1 or 2 (tight highway on ramp, for example) and did not perfectly time the upshift, the trans. would do a very good job of upshifting, and I could leave it in manumatic.
[[ I find the “bounce off the rev limiter” behavior slightly annoying. This appears to be an artifact of the “let’s try to make the automatic behave as close to a manual as possible” school of thought in implementing a manumatic function. If I have my right foot buried and hit max rpm in a gear, it seems to me that I probably do NOT want to stop accelerating. I have likely just been a fraction of a second slow in whacking the lever (or paddle). Does holding WOT indicate that I would really want to suddenly hang at that speed on the rev limiter? I think not. The rather abrupt transition from rapid acceleration to NO acceleration can certainly upset the dynamic balance. More so, it seems to me, than an upshift would. ]]
B – It had a “kickdown” switch beneath the throttle. In manumatic mode, it would remain in the chosen gear (not downshift) even with application of full throttle. But if you pushed the pedal BEYOND the full throttle detent, it activated an override switch, and would downshift. Pretty neat, once you became familiar with the behavior.
And, yes, you can exercise some control over an automatic by selecting the 4 – 3 – 2 – 1 positions. But I find that trying to feel my way through a typical automatic gate pattern is just not nearly as precise or as rewarding as a manumatic. Trying to push from one detent to the next – without overshooting, I find requires far too much concentration - vs just a whack at the trans. shifter or a press of the TAPShift button. And still does not offer all of the advantages listed above. Even the Jaguar’s J-Gate does not really provide a satisfying alternative – for me. And I have driven several Jags with the J-Gate – for many, many miles.
In fact, regarding Manumatic mode behaviors (and many other similar electronically controlled functions), I would really like to see something like:
[for driver #1, ID by remote / key] Car asks initially??
Mr. / Ms. Driver #1: Do you want the trans. to upshift when shift lever is moved forward? [default behavior] - press 1.
Prefer the trans. to upshift when the shift lever if moved to the rear? (I believe BMW and others have selected this) – press 2.
(We are really only talking about interpretation of various electronic signals here – why not allow us choice?)
Mr. Driver #1, Do you want the trans. to allow the engine to bump off the rev limiter and not upshift? – if so, press 1.
If you want the trans. to upshift at redline instead – press 2.
Etc. Etc.
Let us select. Let us make the choice and tailor the vehicle behavior to us – not the reverse . . .
But I digress.
And that’s my opinion.
- Ray Preferring the option of additional vehicle control . . .
Well, perhaps I'm in a more than usual down on Ford mood this AM, having read the release about no more LS, GT or ST Adrenaline, but regardless of that, I predict that the MKS will NOT have manumatic. ANd the reason is that Ford itself says "the Zephyr is a sportier car than the LS" and therefore, a transmission with D and L only must be sportier than one with 5 driver-selectable forward gears and so the MKS will be a D-L car. (Where - can be replaced with UL)
Did Ford REALLY say that? I thought you were just joking the first time. Who at Ford made that statement?
That's just flat out silly propaganda. A FWD V6 with 220 horses can't even keep up with most of its FWD competition these days, let alone something with the power and balance of the LS.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
*** The $40,000 LS is being replaced by the $30,000 Lincoln Zephyr. The LS sold 19,109 units in 2005, a decline of 29.4 percent from the 27,066 sold in 2004.
The Zephyr is a sportier sedan that shares a common architecture with hot-selling Ford Fusion. The Zephyr has sold more than 7,600 units since its introduction last fall.
Ford spokesman Jon Harmon would only say the automaker plans to discontinue the LS in the spring.
Hall said the decision to kill the LS takes away little from Lincoln's lineup, though limits its V-8 offerings until its new MKS flagship sedan goes into production.
"There is a loss for dealers though," Hall said. "To be sure, Zephyr is making up a lot of that."
***
Yep - that's another good one: "..loss of the LS takes away little from Lincoln's lineup."
See, that's the way they feel about it. Heck, LS buyers - those who want a Formula 1 - inspired car that shares it's platform and V8 with Jaguar will be just as happy in a Town Car if they want a V8 or a Zephyr if they want something sportier.
oh, wait a sec. Now, I'm not saying someone at Ford absolutely didn't make such a comment, but the statement in that article, as it is written, is made by the reporter, not a Ford rep.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
OK, I will play devil's advocate and defend Ford. It appears to me that Bryce Hoffman of the Detroit Free Press - not Hall - said the Zephyr was "sportier."
Hall said the Zephyr is making up for the LS's loss to dealers. True statement - It is outselling the LS.
I can't defend the "loss of LS takes little away from Lincoln's lineup" other than to say from a sales volume standpoint, that is true.
Hey - you're right! It was a stupid reporter, not a stupid marketing person! Although the comment about the LS not leaving a void was attributed to the Ford rep.
It could be that the reporter was injecting his opinion there as he didn't attribute that 'sportier' statement to anyone.
Though as you note as well, it was the Ford guy who basically said the LS won't be missed.
BTW, in my present mood, I am working up to a post addressing some of the things ANT has said recently on this and other boards. (Look out, ANT, Incoming ...) Don't take it personal though, seriously, as my post will be aimed at Ford in general, not you in particular. You're just their rep.
A “loaded” S80 MSRP looks to be close to $48K.
But. The current top of the S80 line does not include the Twin Turbo I6 that was the previously top of the line.
The Base for a 2004 (I6TT) S80 was about $44K. Loaded (multi-CD, Four-C, Warm Weather Pkg, etc) was $48.4 in the R&T test.
I’d be pretty surprised if a 2007 MKS with the V8, 6 speed manumatic, AWD and ‘well equipped’ will be much below $50K - MSRP. Sadly.
And I hope I am wrong, but based partly on the way they have kept the LS MSRP so very high (compared to the actual transaction prices) I suspect that a Lincoln “Flagship” will be priced significantly above a loaded LS.
We’ll see . . .
- Ray At least interested enough to follow the developments here – and with the new Volvo S80 . . .
The Mark S is---not a Lincoln. Mr. Horbury may wish it to be so. The Show stand car I saw looked like William C. Ford Jr.'s answer for Lexus. It may well be deserving of Lexus buyers. The DOHC V8 4.6 Litre V8 produced a measely 315 BHP. Had it started at 340/350 that would have been something. At least the S had 4 wheel cross drilled disc brakes. The styling was a nice attempt at some Aston touches mixed with Jaguar on a cheaper range. Clearly Lincoln has to do something to survive. They are trying to start something fresh and new. But in that instance calling it a name redolent of Continental history is a mistake. It is anything but. Despite the fact they had a black '63 Lincoln Continental Sedan in the design studio (red interior and less than 10K on the odometer!) for quite some time as an inspiration, they failed to capture the drama and line of the original 1961 Lincoln with the S---if that is what they're trying to evoke.
While I applaud Messrs. Horbury, Freeman Thomas and Gerry McGovern for getting SOMETHING built, I have seen THREE beautiful Lincoln show cars the past several years, Mark IX, Mark X (not that ugly cross-over), and the Continental Sedan. The design staff has not let us long-time Lincoln buyers down. Mr. Ford has. Lincoln has built nothing since then. They taunt us, but come through with, as Mr. McGovern said: "nothing"
And where will they build it? After the 2006 model year, Wixom will close, and the bull-dozer will make room for condos. "Where Available" is not an answer. Glueing Lincoln production onto Ford plants with other Mercs and FoMoCos is not the way to keep high-line product alive. Times have changed I know, but Ford tried that with the Edsel. Doing that with Lincoln will kill the brand. Having a unique facility to build it in always gave Lincoln the cache that it needed. Having T-Bird as a stable-mate was an acceptable bargain that made Wixom work.
And what of Imperial? That is the car Lincoln should have built six years ago. The time is not too late for Lincoln. But the Mark S is surely not but a bromide. Innovative? No where to be seen. I saw no less than three cars at the D.C. auto show that used the very same suage lines on the sides of their cars. Mark S should be ahead of the pack, not a soft imitation of what is already on the showroom floor at vastly cheaper competitors marque's.
Alot of people like the Zephyr, great entry level car and in someways an improvement over LS. But Mr. Ford is ceding the high end of the market to Cadillac and Chrysler as far as Lincoln is concerned. Jaguars and Astons are gorgeous, beautifully crafted uniquely engineered cars---leading the way at Ford. But Lincoln has been the casualty of that advance. It's as though Mr. Ford never drove a Mark II---or is well versed in the pain it caused his father when it was cancelled. A lot of my friends have driven Lincolns for decades as I have, but with this new S, I do not see a Lincoln...and buyers as myself that like traditional American style laced with performance, quality and an excellent set of brakes, have now nowhere to go. Lincoln never got all those beautiful show cars...I would have bought all of them. The S is too soft for me.
I don't understand why Lincoln has to have it's own assembly plant? That's an extra added cost with no benefit. All that matters is the quality of the assembly.
Dogulas I respectfully disagree with a lot of what you said. On the brighter side of things, I do agree with a little though.
It may well be deserving of Lexus buyers. The DOHC V8 4.6 Litre V8 produced a measely 315 BHP. Had it started at 340/350 that would have been something.
The Infinit M. You know the car that everybody raves is ever so fast and lovely. It has two engines, the entry price for the base M35 AWD is $43K with 280, the M45 AWD is 50K with 335. We are talking about 20 "measely" horses. So how now is the Lincoln engine "measly" and the Infiniti a beast? In the most recent $50K Japanese car comparo done by our beloved Edmunds.com here were the figures and a quote from each review:
Infiniti M45: 335 hp: "The Infiniti is the hot rod of this group."
Lexus GS430: 300HP: " It accelerates hard enough to push you back into the seat,"
Acura RL: 300HP: "Some also feel the Acura's interior materials and décor aren't up to the RL's $50,000 price tag, and its seats, which are the softest and least bolstered of the bunch, just aren't sporty enough for a sport sedan."
So it fits in between the Lexus and the Infiniti power wise and the interior is stunning to say the least. How is the power measly again? :mad:
Having a unique facility to build it in always gave Lincoln the cache that it needed.
Do your really think your Acura, Lexus, BMW, Merc, Volvo, etc. owner is concerned about what plant a car is built in? I have never seen a review where the positive and negative go like this:
Positives: Powerful V-8 not ever to be defined as "measly", beautifully crafted interior, smoothe lines
Negatives: Built in the same factory as the Ford Mustang.
Never in years and years of reading car mags have I ever seen a review criticize where a car is built and not the car. Do you know off the top of your head where the GS is put together? Did it matter that the Bentley Flying Spur was bulkt in a VW factory. If someone can cough up 170K and not care, I am sure at $40K they would care even less.
There's only so much that can be done to the doors and greenhouse of the Navi. Doors will continue to carry the typical Ford-ness of them. Maybe a crease here or there, but other than throwing a character line across it, there's only so much. Plus, Ford prides itself in offering a lower greenhouse. Raising it, would feel claustrophobic. IN the case of GM, it was a welcomed change.
Although the new Navi doors will certainly have a bit more chrome overall. Other than that, the majority of changes will pertain to the front and rear fascia.
Heyjewel,
I too am frustrated with some of the reiduclous decision Ford and it's beancounters have taken. Marketing is a joke, and that's one account I would love for another company to overtake. P/R...another joke. Ford hasn't wished to rock the boat in the past concerning these issues...now the boat is being rocked because that's the only vessel in the sea and it's sicking quicker than a leadlined coffin.
What it does have going for it, is good designers, good ideas, good engineers who's ideas evaporate when they enter the boardroom. Ford needs a personality (I call them "icons") that does things without asking questions. (Not to the point of Lutz which focuses on limited numbered vehicles), but vehicles that excel in all forefronts, not just a category or 2.
But imagine having to convince everyone, of the same idea when everyone has a different agenda? And just like having a child...you want the child to fall on his face a few times and LEARN their lesson, when you warn them over and over not to wear skates in the house. In Fords case, they fell on their face 3 times so far, they got it, they just need to get up and get their skates off and put the running shoes on.
Yes, a lot of people haven't clue where their cars are built, some will never care, but as the price goes up it begins to matter. Indeed, it helps to instill some pride in the work-force that makes the car. Why Ferrari, Bentley, Rolls-Royce, BMW, Mercedes, etc. employees wear the corporate logo on their work atire. If someone comes to see their car built, it helps that the people who make it have pride in their work---eventhough the average build time for premium cars is about 26 hours start to finish. Bentley by contrast is 120-150 hours build time per car. A disgruntled work-force will turn out substandard cars, and ruin a reputation in an instant. Wixom remains one of FoMoCo's best plants for build quality and Harbour Associates gave it high rankings for efficiency.
Measely horsepower? Yes 315BHP is fine, atleast it's a V8! But I can go buy a 300C Hemi with 340 plus right off the show-room floor now, nevermind the SRT8. With a small-block DOHC engine the S should match their competitors---then beat them at their own game as the model line progresses. 350BHP & AWD, 4 Wheel disc brakes, would be perfect. We're not at the bottom of the market, or the middle, Lincoln is supposed to be at the top---its engines should reflect that.
Had Mr. Horbury called the S, just that: Lincoln S, because it is far from a Mark Series car, that would have made sense---or Capri, to recall the Road-Race Lincolns of the 1950's---excellent cars that inspired the original 300 from its competitor. Even Corsair would have made some sense. The car that is the show Mark S is a new start for Lincoln, a poor man's Aston Rapide. They should just say so---which would fit their current advertising for Zephyr.
Zephyr was the first all computer driven CAD/CAM Rapid Prototyping design for Lincoln. Requiring new assembly methods to boot---but for the upscale cars, if Lincoln wants to compete with the very tough market against Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, Cadillac, et. al., they need their own platform and a place to build it. Otherwise I wager they can't raise the bar in the quality department. It will only be "as good" as they can make it, rather than: "wow, this is really nice..." Been a long time since I got in a Lincoln on a show-room floor than made me say that. Why I was hoping those last three show cars would have been built. Nope.
Lincoln needs to adapt what Aston-Martin is doing at Gaydon with the V/H platform to its own line of cars---why Astons has introduced no less than five cars in the last 18 months. Lincoln and all of us die-hards out here who've been driving them for decades deserve better. Mr. Ford: there's a lot of us out here who still want to buy a Lincoln...you have your "Lexus"-Lincoln in the S, you have your intro Lincoln in the Zephyr, now where is the rest of the product line?
Where will you build it? Tomorrow tell us a new Lincoln plant and product line is rising 50 miles west of Wixom in a 'green-field' site, much like Rolls-Royce Goodwood, which was $88Mn to build. Or use the example of the Bentley back-up plant, Die Glaserne Fabrik, in Dresden---a model of modern manufacturing for upscale cars, the acolyte assembly line for Flying Spur built no more than 150 cars per shift---which will serve Bentley until 2007 when all production is consolidated at Crewe---which has also been revamped. Make it so that you can have public tours on selected days, as Corvette and Cadillac do at Bowling Green.
The ad once ran: "Lincoln inspires the loyalty of those who know it best..." true in the halcyon days of Lincoln, Mr. Ford, do not let it become the epitaph of the brand. You want to "re-take the American Road...", you have to win back our hearts too. Do not let us down again.
In the past few years, we have seen Cadillac move up market with new designs. Chrysler has also moved up the food chain from where they were 10 years ago. Meanwhile, Lincoln has stayed stagnant. The reasons have been well documented - Firestone fiasco, budget cuts, muddled messages due to mis-management, etc. However, Ford also owns Jaguar, Volvo, and Aston Martin.
With all of that going on, the regular press, the enthusiast press, and the buying public no longer looks at Lincoln in the same light as Cadillac or Lexus. I don't even think Lincoln looks at themselves in that light. If you want a luxurious muscle car, and are loyal to Ford products, try a supercharged Jaguar. If you want traditional higher-end luxury, take a look at the XJ8. Lincoln does not need to go there at this point.
I do not think the Mark S is designed to be an STS or GS430 killer. It can, however find a place just below those in price - offering 95% of the "goodness" at 85% of the price.
If you take a loaded Montego AWD at around $32K, add in $4k for the Yamaha engine and the proper manumatic 6 spd transmission, you are at $36K. Add another $2k for thicker glass, more insulation, upgraded trim, and other details like hood struts instead of the plebian prop-rod, you are at $38K. That is about where the MKS needs to start. Options like NAV, 20 inch wheels, etc. would push the price higher. Stylish sheetmetal doesn't cost any more than bland sheetmetal.
We have already seen this strategy with the Zephyr - a pretty compelling package for less than a Lexus ES330.
OK, feel free to criticize my logic...or lack thereof.
I love the look of this car. To me it shows style and understated power. BTW, THE UGLIEST of them all is the entire BMW line of cars. They are absolutely butt ugly. So is the C class of the new Mercedes. I think that Lincoln has a nice looker here and I can't wait to see it in production.
it helps that the people who make it have pride in their work---eventhough the average build time for premium cars is about 26 hours start to finish. Bentley by contrast is 120-150 hours build time per car. A disgruntled work-force will turn out substandard cars, and ruin a reputation in an instant. Wixom remains one of FoMoCo's best plants for build quality and Harbour Associates gave it high rankings for efficiency.
This is incorrect. Porsche and BMW at least both take 18 hours to produce one unit complete. That's a fact it's not 26 hours.
assistance...I have been trying to follow this thread and another...we have the MKS and the MKX...what are these cars supposed to be, and what is the difference between them...I am reading about a 315 HP V8, so something sounds decent already, especially compared to my Crown Vic with only 239 HP...are these future cars, or cars about to be sold in the next few months???...are there any photos or links to the cars???...
I normally follow threads OK, but these two just have me confused...
Would you mind helping without flaming???...thanks...
The MKS is a new luxury performance sedan with AWD and 315hp. I believe this will be the same engine used in the top of the line 2007 Volvo S80. It is already in use in the XC90.
The MKX is a crossover based on the Ford Edge. It will have a 3.5L V6 with 250hp that is shared with the Ford Edge. It was supposed to be called the Lincoln Aviator but then Lincoln adopted this new way of naming their cars. The name might change as Honda has taken Ford to court for using the MKX name saying it is too similar to the MDX name from Acura.
Click here to get wallpaper which show both of these cars inside and out. This site is really amazing with new wallpapers every day.
"There's only so much that can be done to the doors and greenhouse of the Navi. Doors will continue to carry the typical Ford-ness of them. Maybe a crease here or there, but other than throwing a character line across it, there's only so much. Plus, Ford prides itself in offering a lower greenhouse. Raising it, would feel claustrophobic."
ANT, a zillion things could be done with the greenhouse--good, bad or indifferent. I was not suggesting raising or lowering it. They could revise the tired 1998 styling (which was fine back then but the world keeps turning), expecially the clumsy look of the big rear side windows. Also the line of the A-pillar is very 1997 F150--because it IS 1997 F150. Why put new architecture under an old body with trim changes? It is not a good way to feature your best work.
I have loved the MKS since it was born... introduced at the Detroit Autoshow. I thought Lincoln was on the right path and I defended it when people said it was underpowered and the design was off. I can't defend what I just foudn out. Orginally this car was to make it to dealers for the fall of this year. However, due to plant closings it will not make it until... get this... February 2008. What in the world???? By that time 315hp will be in entry level models. It is competitive right now but by that time, everything will be either getting redesigned or about to get redesigned and the Lincoln will be left in the dust. All the nifty features will be available in the competition plus more. They needed this car last year and now we have to wait for 2 more years. They aren't late to the party, they are planning to show up when the party is done.
Can anyone tell me why a car company would show a car that is 90-something percent production ready, 2 years before it gets to dealerships????? We might as well shut this forum down and reopen it in 20 months. The whole world will change by then.
Chicago! Mark S will be built in Chicago alongside other Ford Motor products. The new "people mover" based platform will find its way to Oakville, Ontario. Chicago police used the first of the four-wheel brake Lincoln L chassis along with Detroit Police during the "Capone Era"...the only connection Chicago has for Lincoln. Yes, the Mark S will be late to the party...Mr. Ford still has a chance to up the ante, the horsepower, and the game for Lincoln.
Ford Motor plans to build 50,000 Mark S sedans on the d385 platform. 15,000 of a second model (maybe a mark xi?) called e386---based from the Ford 500. So Volvo platforms, Ford platforms, and "underpowered" engines is what is happening to the venerable Lincoln name. Granted the Mark S will appeal to a certain segment of the market...but Ford missed its Jaguar targets by half. I can see 25,000 people buying the Mark S, with a proper motor. I do not see Town Car buyers, and other afficianados of the Lincoln line stepping up to the S without some changes between February 2006, and February 2008 when production begins in Chicago. And for more than half a year of 2007, Lincolns will only be made in Mexico...giving the competition that much more time to increase their market share. That's the real reality, and Bibiano Boerio, GM of Jaguar said: "It's going to be god-damned tough for the next two or three years..." Her blunt comments apply to Lincoln too. Lincoln sold 71,000 plus cars last year. They will be lucky to maintain that pace through the summer of 2007, Zephyr included. So all the chips are on the table with the S, and a future "full size" Town Car...whatever will become of that, but that won't see the light of day until 2009/10. Imperial will have been in showrooms for more than a year by that time.
Packard tried to build cars off Studebaker platforms, and it killed the brand. Lincoln can share platforms at the bottom of the market, but not obviously do so at the top and survive. Ford has $25Bn cash-on-hand, $2.5Bn of that should go to Lincoln...to give us a tried & true Lincoln able to go head-to-head with the competition...will they do that to survive? Lincoln, clearly, is in survival mode with the S. Sadly, Ford announced the switch to Chicago the next day after I asked them to tell me where the brand is going. Now I know. Will Lincoln ever again set the pace, and grace in the marketplace? Ford has the money to build a modern plant for Lincoln...and make that a reality. Mr. Ford have you driven an Audi A8 lately? Instead, Lincoln will become the icing on the Ford Cake. Take off your coat & tie, go out spend some wheel time behind the famous Lincolns of yore, and your competition...it's not too late for Lincoln--- Mr. Ford. Will you take the final step up?
It was never supposed to be fall of this year. The target was always fall of next year.
I don't know why it's taking so long and I agree they need it now. Maybe they have supply issues (especially with the engines) or plant capacity issues that drove the original date. I think it's possible they'll introduce it earlier.
Yes, the press quoted "suppliers." I wonder if there is any chance that information is incorrect? C&D said "about a year from now" but that was written prior to the plant closings.
No doubt 2 years is too long. I have fully intended to replace my LS with a Mark S but if this 2/08 date is accurate, I guess I move to plan "B".
I replaced my 2000 LS with a fully loaded SEL V6 Fusion. Not quite the same car but very similar and in some ways better than the LS (bigger trunk, more comfortable passenger seating, better fuel mileage, 87 octane, etc.) I'd recommend checking out the Zephyr.....I mean MKZ.
Yes, I know. A 3.5 Z has always been in the back of my mind as possibility if the Mark S got screwed up. I am still hoping that things could change regarding production dates on the S. We'll wait awhile........
When you come up with a new plan to "save the company" you cannot cancel and delay proposed products. Like GM with their full-size SUVs, you move intro dates CLOSER, not further away. The company is in trouble because of lack of product, and lack of competitive product. It needs any product now.
Show the darn MKS when it is at most a few months from job 1. Otherwise, you are touting something that may be competitive now, but definitely won't be in two more years. Things are moving too fast now for the old three years development periods and eight year product cycles.
The only rational reason for delaying the MKS for two more years is that it would give them time (if they were organized like some other manufacturers who actually can bring a model from drawings to job 1 in two years) to put some actual Lincoln pizazz into a proposed model that is now merely a contemporary, innocuous mish-mash.
but if i want a FWD V6 sedan, my money is going to Honda. Lincoln should NOT be competing in this segment for this long. So, what's the deal? LS has halted production and the MKS is waiting 2 years? That's a ridiculous amount of time where they will only be offering an ancient design (TC) and a FWD offering that can't compete. This could very well be the beginning of the end.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Think about how Ford muffed the introduction of the T-Bird, Marauder and the Blackwood - They dragged preproduction models around for two or three years and after endless delays finally produced some. By the time they were actually introduced, the public was tired of them and the product was nearly obsolete.
The GT proved Ford can actually get it done, if they want.
It's one model, folks - 50K units. In the meantime they're adding the 3.5L and AWD (not just FWD) to the Zeph...err...MKZ in addition to new interior and exterior styling and introducing a totally new vehicle in the MKX.
Let's talk about timeframes from concept to production:
Mustang - concept introduced at NAIAS in Jan. 2003, production version shown at NAIAS in Jan. 2004, production Sept. 2004.
Ford GT - concept introduced at NAIAS in Jan. 2002, first production version June 2003, production April 2004.
I'm not saying they don't need it now but 2 years is not totally out of line.
a nose-heavy 250-hp AWD sedan doesn't exactly float my boat, either. What's that going to run? The Zephyr starts at $30k now, right? So a nicely optioned AWD one is going to be approaching $40k, right? I can get a 300-hp S60R for that money.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
There are a whole slew of nice cars you can get for that or less. The Acura TL jumps to mind. Or a Honda Accord hybrid with Navigation comes in at about $34000 and it's a beautiful car and gets mid 30s mpg city and hwy. I'm just stunned today at the news that the Zephyr is being redone 6 months after intro and that the "flagship" S won't arrive for 2 years. If I owned a Lincoln dealership right now, I think I might start collecting empty cans and bottles. Seriously folks, I'd say the handwriting is on the wall for the Lincoln - and more so for the Mercury brand. With all this news comes also the realization that there seems to be NOTHING in the pipeline for Mercury, and they need help as much or more than Lincoln. There's talk of a Lincoln based on the Mustang, but no talk of a Cougar? Talk of a Lincoln people-mover (BAD IDEA, BTW) but nothing for Mercury, except that the pathetic Monterey minivan is about to be cancelled, if it hasn't been already. In fact, it appears that Ford is going to get completely out of the minivan business after the fiasco of the Freestar/Monterey twins and their non-competitiveness. OK, back into the bunker for me.
I agree 2 years is a long time for the MKS, but as far as the Zeph...err...MKZ is concerned, don't think of it as a redesign. The current Zephyr was rushed out the door so that Lincoln dealers would have something to sell this year and to do that they had to compromise on the front end styling and use the 3.0L engine.
If I was a Lincoln dealer I'd look at it this way: by this fall the MKX and MKZ will be outselling the LS and Aviator AND doing it with minimal to no incentives compared to the $5K-$8K incentives required to sell the old models. Vast improvement for both the dealers and Ford. And don't write off Mercury just yet - let's see what they show at Chicago. That's typically where the Mercury versions get introduced rather than Detroit.
Snooping through the local Lincoln dealer's showroom, it was plainly obvious that Lincoln needed something to distinguish it from the Milan, makeup aside. The Milan is getting a lot of local TV ad exposure, definitely aimed at women BTW. I think that the engine and AWD are important upgrades if this car is going to succeed. The competition is tough, even from the cars at the other end of the dealership (Volvo), much less from those down the road at the other dealerships. Lincoln will need the handling of the BMW, the fit and finish of the Lexus, the interior of the Audi, Volvo safety and a great price even to get noticed. I wish for Ford's sake, for Michigan's sake. and for the sake of US industry that it wasn't so! beaunedoc
Comments
:lemon:
If MKS will be a strict V8/AWD sedan, I can see it starts at $38,900~$39,900 and goes up to $45k+.
What you are talking about? Acura RL is a glorified Honda Accord and Volvo is premium FWD car - never was a luxury, especially in Europe. Never was anywhere close to Mercedes or BMW.
I cannot see why Volvo might be more desirable that Lincoln. In my view there are luxury cars like Cadillac, Mercedes, BMW and Lexus. And near luxury crowd like Volvo, Lincoln, Acura. Infinity, Jaguar and Audi are between.
Chrysler and Buick have nothing to do with luxury – just premium cars. They better beat Toyota and Nissan.
All the changes they did make (and will make on the 2007) are laudable, but you cannot make sales conquests with an old looking body. I just hope they will give the Navigator a truly updated body soon...and not keep hiding all the changes underneath and inside. Over the years, that approach has practically killed both Ranger and Windstar...oops, Freestar sales (both down more than 65%).
As for Volvo, "never was" doesn't necessarily equate to "can't be." There is tone from the Volvo information that they aspire to be considered along with premium German brands.
As for my reference to Buick and Chrysler: A loaded Lucerne or 300C prices out around $37K. My point is that the Mark S can be priced closer to that level than the $50K class.
The Ranger is in a shrinking market segment so why spend big bucks making over a vehicle that probably won't sell any more than the current vehicle?
yeah, well, if you put aside the engine, tranny, awd, suspension, interior, sheet metal, size, etc ... ummmm... oh, and ONLY take into account they are from the same parent company, then sure! Kinda like how a Jag XKR is a glorified Ford Focus, right?
there are luxury cars like Cadillac, Mercedes, BMW and Lexus. And near luxury crowd like Volvo, Lincoln, Acura.
I think this might be the first time I've heard anyone state a Caddy is upmarket from a Lincoln, and competes with benz and bmw. I also wouldn't put Jag as a 'tweener, personally. It deserves to be up there with bmw and benz. I don't find a tweener class at all, as a matter of fact. Infinity belongs in the same class as Lincoln, Caddy, Acura, and Volvo.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
You run the risk of losing sales by being too conservative and the 2003 changes (introducing the independent rear suspension was a terrific improvement) did not recapture the crown for Navigator.
ANT, I have seen the new Navigator front end and it is quite nice...but it is attached to the same body as the 2003 and the 1998. I would love to see that great front end on a restyled body that reduces the "heaviness" of the side glass from the rear door to the tailgate, and/or at least changes the tired shape of the rear door glass area.
Cadillac changed and improved the greenhouse and every body panel in its 2007 Escalade, as it also did in the previous iteration. I don't think they have alienated their customers at all.
This has gotten far from MKS, hey? I do hope Lincoln re-thinks their pricing structure, and introduces the MKS in the mid-30's price range to start. Lincoln no longer is in the same arena as Cadillac. At this point, Cadillac does share some platforms, but it does not share any of its car bodies with other divisions, like the Fusion/Zephyr example. (Even in the large SUV field, Escalade includes more differentiation from Yukon/Tahoe than, say, the Armada and the QX56 do.) Cadillac has a unified look, a broad price range, and some exclusive and pricey V models. Get some Lincoln volume back, and then consider taking Cadillac on directly again.
Meanwhile, I hope the general body style of the MKS, bland as it might be, will be exclusive to Lincoln. Platform sharing is a wonderful thing, if it can produce both the S80 and the MKS. It's a start toward a new Lincoln division.
And if / when I actually wanted to record absolute, ultimate 0 – 60 or quarter mile times, I understand that I should leave my automatic in “full auto.” mode.
But here are a few examples of what the LS manumatic (for example) did that most other, ‘regular’ automatics cannot do:
1 – To elaborate a bit upon a recent post here: I can pick and hold a specific gear. For example, I can lock my trans. in third gear, and it will not shift. Period. From 0 mph to well over any US speed limit (at least 80 - again, this is in third gear), regardless of throttle position, rpm or vehicle speed. My 2003 Lincoln LS would allow me to start from rest in either third or second or first - and stay in whatever gear I select, until I shift. From 0 to whatever mph = fuel / spark cutoff in that gear. (If placed in fourth or in fifth, it will downshift to first as speed drops below about 5 mph.)
I use this ‘lock in second or lock in third’ feature often during my evening commute out of Mid-Town Atlanta. No shifting. Plenty of torque to accelerate, since with 6 lanes of stop / start traffic, not much acceleration is required – or possible. No shifts. Smooth.
2 – I can force also an upshift at less than max. rpm when accelerating at (or close to) WOT.
I find that many times I enjoy the thrust of full throttle, but choose to shift well before max. rpm / red line, as I am just enjoying myself, not racing. (And for the few times when I am REALLY in a hurry, and want max. rpm shifts, I did just leave it in D5. The computer and trans. work together very well under these circumstances to provide a very quick, but not brutal or harsh shift – at exactly the right time.)
3 – On the highway, at typical freeway speeds of 65 – 80, I could ‘lock’ the trans in fifth gear. Thus, regardless of throttle position, it will not downshift. I will certainly see TCC unlock / lock if I am aggressive with the throttle, but it will not downshift to fourth or third gear.
4 – I could also hold fourth or fifth at speeds where the automatic would generally downshift one or 2 gears even at light throttle or coasting. As mentioned above, it would allow fourth or fifth to be held down to below 10 mph. In traffic, moving slowly, varying speed somewhat, but not stop and go, this works very well for me.
Again, I am not suggesting that these specific attributes mean anything to every potential buyer – just to me. And since manumatic functioning is now appearing on almost anything with sporting intent, regardless of whether or not either a ‘real’ (as in: row through an H pattern) manual and / or a Sequential Manual (as BMW and others are offering) is offered as well. There seems to be a market for this. In fact, one of the few things that surprised me when it did NOT make production on the 2005 V8 Mustang GT (and 2006, it appears) is manumatic function for the automatic. The trans. is the same as in my Lincoln LS . . . Odd.
Most automatics with a 4 (or D4) or 3 or 2 or 1 position on the trans. shifter gate (or a separate O/D lockout button) will typically allow the trans. to shift as it thinks best among any of the gears up to the number shown. Meaning, in 4 or D4 it will typically shift through 1 – 2 – 3 – 4 as required, just never upshift to fifth. And in 3 it will utilize 1 – 2 – 3, but never 4 (or 5, if the trans. has that many gears) regardless of speed or throttle position.
And there are variations. I owned a 2002 German 8 cylinder sedan that had the 5-speed Tiptronic. This had 2 specific features that were interesting and useful – to me.
A – If the maximum rpm was reached in a lower gear, it would upshift even in manumatic mode. (As opposed to bouncing off the rev limiter, as most others will.) And still remain in manumatic mode.
I found this useful as I could leave it in manumatic mode (as I typically drove it) and if I was accelerating hard in 1 or 2 (tight highway on ramp, for example) and did not perfectly time the upshift, the trans. would do a very good job of upshifting, and I could leave it in manumatic.
[[ I find the “bounce off the rev limiter” behavior slightly annoying. This appears to be an artifact of the “let’s try to make the automatic behave as close to a manual as possible” school of thought in implementing a manumatic function. If I have my right foot buried and hit max rpm in a gear, it seems to me that I probably do NOT want to stop accelerating. I have likely just been a fraction of a second slow in whacking the lever (or paddle). Does holding WOT indicate that I would really want to suddenly hang at that speed on the rev limiter? I think not. The rather abrupt transition from rapid acceleration to NO acceleration can certainly upset the dynamic balance. More so, it seems to me, than an upshift would. ]]
B – It had a “kickdown” switch beneath the throttle. In manumatic mode, it would remain in the chosen gear (not downshift) even with application of full throttle. But if you pushed the pedal BEYOND the full throttle detent, it activated an override switch, and would downshift. Pretty neat, once you became familiar with the behavior.
And, yes, you can exercise some control over an automatic by selecting the 4 – 3 – 2 – 1 positions. But I find that trying to feel my way through a typical automatic gate pattern is just not nearly as precise or as rewarding as a manumatic. Trying to push from one detent to the next – without overshooting, I find requires far too much concentration - vs just a whack at the trans. shifter or a press of the TAPShift button. And still does not offer all of the advantages listed above. Even the Jaguar’s J-Gate does not really provide a satisfying alternative – for me. And I have driven several Jags with the J-Gate – for many, many miles.
In fact, regarding Manumatic mode behaviors (and many other similar electronically controlled functions), I would really like to see something like:
[for driver #1, ID by remote / key] Car asks initially??
Mr. / Ms. Driver #1: Do you want the trans. to upshift when shift lever is moved forward? [default behavior] - press 1.
Prefer the trans. to upshift when the shift lever if moved to the rear? (I believe BMW and others have selected this) – press 2.
(We are really only talking about interpretation of various electronic signals here – why not allow us choice?)
Mr. Driver #1, Do you want the trans. to allow the engine to bump off the rev limiter and not upshift? – if so, press 1.
If you want the trans. to upshift at redline instead – press 2.
Etc.
Etc.
Let us select. Let us make the choice and tailor the vehicle behavior to us – not the reverse . . .
But I digress.
And that’s my opinion.
- Ray
Preferring the option of additional vehicle control . . .
That's just flat out silly propaganda. A FWD V6 with 220 horses can't even keep up with most of its FWD competition these days, let alone something with the power and balance of the LS.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
George wins the award for understatement of the year! And it's only February!
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I'm going to put a couple of quotes in here for posterity. The article they came from is here:
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060203/AUTO01/602030367
***
The $40,000 LS is being replaced by the $30,000 Lincoln Zephyr. The LS sold 19,109 units in 2005, a decline of 29.4 percent from the 27,066 sold in 2004.
The Zephyr is a sportier sedan that shares a common architecture with hot-selling Ford Fusion. The Zephyr has sold more than 7,600 units since its introduction last fall.
Ford spokesman Jon Harmon would only say the automaker plans to discontinue the LS in the spring.
Hall said the decision to kill the LS takes away little from Lincoln's lineup, though limits its V-8 offerings until its new MKS flagship sedan goes into production.
"There is a loss for dealers though," Hall said. "To be sure, Zephyr is making up a lot of that."
***
Yep - that's another good one: "..loss of the LS takes away little from Lincoln's lineup."
See, that's the way they feel about it. Heck, LS buyers - those who want a Formula 1 - inspired car that shares it's platform and V8 with Jaguar will be just as happy in a Town Car if they want a V8 or a Zephyr if they want something sportier.
Idiots.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Hall said the Zephyr is making up for the LS's loss to dealers. True statement - It is outselling the LS.
I can't defend the "loss of LS takes little away from Lincoln's lineup" other than to say from a sales volume standpoint, that is true.
I woke up feeling very Ford-friendly today!
Though as you note as well, it was the Ford guy who basically said the LS won't be missed.
BTW, in my present mood, I am working up to a post addressing some of the things ANT has said recently on this and other boards. (Look out, ANT, Incoming ...) Don't take it personal though, seriously, as my post will be aimed at Ford in general, not you in particular. You're just their rep.
A “loaded” S80 MSRP looks to be close to $48K.
But. The current top of the S80 line does not include the Twin Turbo I6 that was the previously top of the line.
The Base for a 2004 (I6TT) S80 was about $44K. Loaded (multi-CD, Four-C, Warm Weather Pkg, etc) was $48.4 in the R&T test.
I’d be pretty surprised if a 2007 MKS with the V8, 6 speed manumatic, AWD and ‘well equipped’ will be much below $50K - MSRP. Sadly.
And I hope I am wrong, but based partly on the way they have kept the LS MSRP so very high (compared to the actual transaction prices) I suspect that a Lincoln “Flagship” will be priced significantly above a loaded LS.
We’ll see . . .
- Ray
At least interested enough to follow the developments here – and with the new Volvo S80 . . .
The Mark S is---not a Lincoln. Mr. Horbury may wish it to be so. The Show stand car I saw looked like William C. Ford Jr.'s answer for Lexus. It may well be deserving of Lexus buyers. The DOHC V8 4.6 Litre V8 produced a measely 315 BHP. Had it started at 340/350 that would have been something. At least the S had 4 wheel cross drilled disc brakes. The styling was a nice attempt at some Aston touches mixed with Jaguar on a cheaper range. Clearly Lincoln has to do something to survive. They are trying to start something fresh and new. But in that instance calling it a name redolent of Continental history is a mistake. It is anything but. Despite the fact they had a black '63 Lincoln Continental Sedan in the design studio (red interior and less than 10K on the odometer!) for quite some time as an inspiration, they failed to capture the drama and line of the original 1961 Lincoln with the S---if that is what they're trying to evoke.
While I applaud Messrs. Horbury, Freeman Thomas and Gerry McGovern for getting SOMETHING built, I have seen THREE beautiful Lincoln show cars the past several years, Mark IX, Mark X (not that ugly cross-over), and the Continental Sedan. The design staff has not let us long-time Lincoln buyers down. Mr. Ford has. Lincoln has built nothing since then. They taunt us, but come through with, as Mr. McGovern said: "nothing"
And where will they build it? After the 2006 model year, Wixom will close, and the bull-dozer will make room for condos. "Where Available" is not an answer. Glueing Lincoln production onto Ford plants with other Mercs and FoMoCos is not the way to keep high-line product alive. Times have changed I know, but Ford tried that with the Edsel. Doing that with Lincoln will kill the brand. Having a unique facility to build it in always gave Lincoln the cache that it needed. Having T-Bird as a stable-mate was an acceptable bargain that made Wixom work.
And what of Imperial? That is the car Lincoln should have built six years ago. The time is not too late for Lincoln. But the Mark S is surely not but a bromide. Innovative? No where to be seen. I saw no less than three cars at the D.C. auto show that used the very same suage lines on the sides of their cars. Mark S should be ahead of the pack, not a soft imitation of what is already on the showroom floor at vastly cheaper competitors marque's.
Alot of people like the Zephyr, great entry level car and in someways an improvement over LS. But Mr. Ford is ceding the high end of the market to Cadillac and Chrysler as far as Lincoln is concerned. Jaguars and Astons are gorgeous, beautifully crafted uniquely engineered cars---leading the way at Ford. But Lincoln has been the casualty of that advance. It's as though Mr. Ford never drove a Mark II---or is well versed in the pain it caused his father when it was cancelled. A lot of my friends have driven Lincolns for decades as I have, but with this new S, I do not see a Lincoln...and buyers as myself that like traditional American style laced with performance, quality and an excellent set of brakes, have now nowhere to go. Lincoln never got all those beautiful show cars...I would have bought all of them. The S is too soft for me.
DogulasR
And that was not a 4.6L V8 - it was a 4.4L V8.
It may well be deserving of Lexus buyers. The DOHC V8 4.6 Litre V8 produced a measely 315 BHP. Had it started at 340/350 that would have been something.
The Infinit M. You know the car that everybody raves is ever so fast and lovely. It has two engines, the entry price for the base M35 AWD is $43K with 280, the M45 AWD is 50K with 335. We are talking about 20 "measely" horses. So how now is the Lincoln engine "measly" and the Infiniti a beast? In the most recent $50K Japanese car comparo done by our beloved Edmunds.com here were the figures and a quote from each review:
Infiniti M45: 335 hp: "The Infiniti is the hot rod of this group."
Lexus GS430: 300HP: " It accelerates hard enough to push you back into the seat,"
Acura RL: 300HP: "Some also feel the Acura's interior materials and décor aren't up to the RL's $50,000 price tag, and its seats, which are the softest and least bolstered of the bunch, just aren't sporty enough for a sport sedan."
So it fits in between the Lexus and the Infiniti power wise and the interior is stunning to say the least. How is the power measly again? :mad:
Do your really think your Acura, Lexus, BMW, Merc, Volvo, etc. owner is concerned about what plant a car is built in? I have never seen a review where the positive and negative go like this:
Positives: Powerful V-8 not ever to be defined as "measly", beautifully crafted interior, smoothe lines
Negatives: Built in the same factory as the Ford Mustang.
Never in years and years of reading car mags have I ever seen a review criticize where a car is built and not the car. Do you know off the top of your head where the GS is put together? Did it matter that the Bentley Flying Spur was bulkt in a VW factory. If someone can cough up 170K and not care, I am sure at $40K they would care even less.
There's only so much that can be done to the doors and greenhouse of the Navi. Doors will continue to carry the typical Ford-ness of them. Maybe a crease here or there, but other than throwing a character line across it, there's only so much. Plus, Ford prides itself in offering a lower greenhouse. Raising it, would feel claustrophobic. IN the case of GM, it was a welcomed change.
Although the new Navi doors will certainly have a bit more chrome overall. Other than that, the majority of changes will pertain to the front and rear fascia.
Heyjewel,
I too am frustrated with some of the reiduclous decision Ford and it's beancounters have taken. Marketing is a joke, and that's one account I would love for another company to overtake. P/R...another joke. Ford hasn't wished to rock the boat in the past concerning these issues...now the boat is being rocked because that's the only vessel in the sea and it's sicking quicker than a leadlined coffin.
What it does have going for it, is good designers, good ideas, good engineers who's ideas evaporate when they enter the boardroom. Ford needs a personality (I call them "icons") that does things without asking questions. (Not to the point of Lutz which focuses on limited numbered vehicles), but vehicles that excel in all forefronts, not just a category or 2.
But imagine having to convince everyone, of the same idea when everyone has a different agenda? And just like having a child...you want the child to fall on his face a few times and LEARN their lesson, when you warn them over and over not to wear skates in the house. In Fords case, they fell on their face 3 times so far, they got it, they just need to get up and get their skates off and put the running shoes on.
Yes, a lot of people haven't clue where their cars are built, some will never care, but as the price goes up it begins to matter. Indeed, it helps to instill some pride in the work-force that makes the car. Why Ferrari, Bentley, Rolls-Royce, BMW, Mercedes, etc. employees wear the corporate logo on their work atire. If someone comes to see their car built, it helps that the people who make it have pride in their work---eventhough the average build time for premium cars is about 26 hours start to finish. Bentley by contrast is 120-150 hours build time per car. A disgruntled work-force will turn out substandard cars, and ruin a reputation in an instant. Wixom remains one of FoMoCo's best plants for build quality and Harbour Associates gave it high rankings for efficiency.
Measely horsepower? Yes 315BHP is fine, atleast it's a V8! But I can go buy a 300C Hemi with 340 plus right off the show-room floor now, nevermind the SRT8. With a small-block DOHC engine the S should match their competitors---then beat them at their own game as the model line progresses. 350BHP & AWD, 4 Wheel disc brakes, would be perfect. We're not at the bottom of the market, or the middle, Lincoln is supposed to be at the top---its engines should reflect that.
Had Mr. Horbury called the S, just that: Lincoln S, because it is far from a Mark Series car, that would have made sense---or Capri, to recall the Road-Race Lincolns of the 1950's---excellent cars that inspired the original 300 from its competitor. Even Corsair would have made some sense. The car that is the show Mark S is a new start for Lincoln, a poor man's Aston Rapide. They should just say so---which would fit their current advertising for Zephyr.
Zephyr was the first all computer driven CAD/CAM Rapid Prototyping design for Lincoln. Requiring new assembly methods to boot---but for the upscale cars, if Lincoln wants to compete with the very tough market against Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, Cadillac, et. al., they need their own platform and a place to build it. Otherwise I wager they can't raise the bar in the quality department. It will only be "as good" as they can make it, rather than: "wow, this is really nice..." Been a long time since I got in a Lincoln on a show-room floor than made me say that. Why I was hoping those last three show cars would have been built. Nope.
Lincoln needs to adapt what Aston-Martin is doing at Gaydon with the V/H platform to its own line of cars---why Astons has introduced no less than five cars in the last 18 months. Lincoln and all of us die-hards out here who've been driving them for decades deserve better. Mr. Ford: there's a lot of us out here who still want to buy a Lincoln...you have your "Lexus"-Lincoln in the S, you have your intro Lincoln in the Zephyr, now where is the rest of the product line?
Where will you build it? Tomorrow tell us a new Lincoln plant and product line is rising 50 miles west of Wixom in a 'green-field' site, much like Rolls-Royce Goodwood, which was $88Mn to build. Or use the example of the Bentley back-up plant, Die Glaserne Fabrik, in Dresden---a model of modern manufacturing for upscale cars, the acolyte assembly line for Flying Spur built no more than 150 cars per shift---which will serve Bentley until 2007 when all production is consolidated at Crewe---which has also been revamped. Make it so that you can have public tours on selected days, as Corvette and Cadillac do at Bowling Green.
The ad once ran: "Lincoln inspires the loyalty of those who know it best..." true in the halcyon days of Lincoln, Mr. Ford, do not let it become the epitaph of the brand. You want to "re-take the American Road...", you have to win back our hearts too. Do not let us down again.
DouglasR
With all of that going on, the regular press, the enthusiast press, and the buying public no longer looks at Lincoln in the same light as Cadillac or Lexus. I don't even think Lincoln looks at themselves in that light. If you want a luxurious muscle car, and are loyal to Ford products, try a supercharged Jaguar. If you want traditional higher-end luxury, take a look at the XJ8. Lincoln does not need to go there at this point.
I do not think the Mark S is designed to be an STS or GS430 killer. It can, however find a place just below those in price - offering 95% of the "goodness" at 85% of the price.
If you take a loaded Montego AWD at around $32K, add in $4k for the Yamaha engine and the proper manumatic 6 spd transmission, you are at $36K. Add another $2k for thicker glass, more insulation, upgraded trim, and other details like hood struts instead of the plebian prop-rod, you are at $38K. That is about where the MKS needs to start. Options like NAV, 20 inch wheels, etc. would push the price higher. Stylish sheetmetal doesn't cost any more than bland sheetmetal.
We have already seen this strategy with the Zephyr - a pretty compelling package for less than a Lexus ES330.
OK, feel free to criticize my logic...or lack thereof.
I love the look of this car. To me it shows style and understated power. BTW, THE UGLIEST of them all is the entire BMW line of cars. They are absolutely butt ugly. So is the C class of the new Mercedes. I think that Lincoln has a nice looker here and I can't wait to see it in production.
it helps that the people who make it have pride in their work---eventhough the average build time for premium cars is about 26 hours start to finish. Bentley by contrast is 120-150 hours build time per car. A disgruntled work-force will turn out substandard cars, and ruin a reputation in an instant. Wixom remains one of FoMoCo's best plants for build quality and Harbour Associates gave it high rankings for efficiency.
This is incorrect. Porsche and BMW at least both take 18 hours to produce one unit complete. That's a fact it's not 26 hours.
I normally follow threads OK, but these two just have me confused...
Would you mind helping without flaming???...thanks...
The MKS is a new luxury performance sedan with AWD and 315hp. I believe this will be the same engine used in the top of the line 2007 Volvo S80. It is already in use in the XC90.
The MKX is a crossover based on the Ford Edge. It will have a 3.5L V6 with 250hp that is shared with the Ford Edge. It was supposed to be called the Lincoln Aviator but then Lincoln adopted this new way of naming their cars. The name might change as Honda has taken Ford to court for using the MKX name saying it is too similar to the MDX name from Acura.
Click here to get wallpaper which show both of these cars inside and out. This site is really amazing with new wallpapers every day.
Here's stuff from the Detoit Auto Show.
Lincoln MKS
Lincoln MKX
ANT, a zillion things could be done with the greenhouse--good, bad or indifferent. I was not suggesting raising or lowering it. They could revise the tired 1998 styling (which was fine back then but the world keeps turning), expecially the clumsy look of the big rear side windows. Also the line of the A-pillar is very 1997 F150--because it IS 1997 F150. Why put new architecture under an old body with trim changes? It is not a good way to feature your best work.
Chicago! Mark S will be built in Chicago alongside other Ford Motor products. The new "people mover" based platform will find its way to Oakville, Ontario. Chicago police used the first of the four-wheel brake Lincoln L chassis along with Detroit Police during the "Capone Era"...the only connection Chicago has for Lincoln. Yes, the Mark S will be late to the party...Mr. Ford still has a chance to up the ante, the horsepower, and the game for Lincoln.
Ford Motor plans to build 50,000 Mark S sedans on the d385 platform. 15,000 of a second model (maybe a mark xi?) called e386---based from the Ford 500. So Volvo platforms, Ford platforms, and "underpowered" engines is what is happening to the venerable Lincoln name. Granted the Mark S will appeal to a certain segment of the market...but Ford missed its Jaguar targets by half. I can see 25,000 people buying the Mark S, with a proper motor. I do not see Town Car buyers, and other afficianados of the Lincoln line stepping up to the S without some changes between February 2006, and February 2008 when production begins in Chicago. And for more than half a year of 2007, Lincolns will only be made in Mexico...giving the competition that much more time to increase their market share. That's the real reality, and Bibiano Boerio, GM of Jaguar said: "It's going to be god-damned tough for the next two or three years..." Her blunt comments apply to Lincoln too. Lincoln sold 71,000 plus cars last year. They will be lucky to maintain that pace through the summer of 2007, Zephyr included. So all the chips are on the table with the S, and a future "full size" Town Car...whatever will become of that, but that won't see the light of day until 2009/10. Imperial will have been in showrooms for more than a year by that time.
Packard tried to build cars off Studebaker platforms, and it killed the brand. Lincoln can share platforms at the bottom of the market, but not obviously do so at the top and survive. Ford has $25Bn cash-on-hand, $2.5Bn of that should go to Lincoln...to give us a tried & true Lincoln able to go head-to-head with the competition...will they do that to survive? Lincoln, clearly, is in survival mode with the S. Sadly, Ford announced the switch to Chicago the next day after I asked them to tell me where the brand is going. Now I know. Will Lincoln ever again set the pace, and grace in the marketplace? Ford has the money to build a modern plant for Lincoln...and make that a reality. Mr. Ford have you driven an Audi A8 lately? Instead, Lincoln will become the icing on the Ford Cake. Take off your coat & tie, go out spend some wheel time behind the famous Lincolns of yore, and your competition...it's not too late for Lincoln--- Mr. Ford. Will you take the final step up?
DouglasR
I don't know why it's taking so long and I agree they need it now. Maybe they have supply issues (especially with the engines) or plant capacity issues that drove the original date. I think it's possible they'll introduce it earlier.
No doubt 2 years is too long. I have fully intended to replace my LS with a Mark S but if this 2/08 date is accurate, I guess I move to plan "B".
Show the darn MKS when it is at most a few months from job 1. Otherwise, you are touting something that may be competitive now, but definitely won't be in two more years. Things are moving too fast now for the old three years development periods and eight year product cycles.
The only rational reason for delaying the MKS for two more years is that it would give them time (if they were organized like some other manufacturers who actually can bring a model from drawings to job 1 in two years) to put some actual Lincoln pizazz into a proposed model that is now merely a contemporary, innocuous mish-mash.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The GT proved Ford can actually get it done, if they want.
But, this mess looks like more of the same.
Let's talk about timeframes from concept to production:
Mustang - concept introduced at NAIAS in Jan. 2003, production version shown at NAIAS in Jan. 2004, production Sept. 2004.
Ford GT - concept introduced at NAIAS in Jan. 2002, first production version June 2003, production April 2004.
I'm not saying they don't need it now but 2 years is not totally out of line.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I'm just stunned today at the news that the Zephyr is being redone 6 months after intro and that the "flagship" S won't arrive for 2 years. If I owned a Lincoln dealership right now, I think I might start collecting empty cans and bottles.
Seriously folks, I'd say the handwriting is on the wall for the Lincoln - and more so for the Mercury brand. With all this news comes also the realization that there seems to be NOTHING in the pipeline for Mercury, and they need help as much or more than Lincoln. There's talk of a Lincoln based on the Mustang, but no talk of a Cougar? Talk of a Lincoln people-mover (BAD IDEA, BTW) but nothing for Mercury, except that the pathetic Monterey minivan is about to be cancelled, if it hasn't been already. In fact, it appears that Ford is going to get completely out of the minivan business after the fiasco of the Freestar/Monterey twins and their non-competitiveness.
OK, back into the bunker for me.
If I was a Lincoln dealer I'd look at it this way: by this fall the MKX and MKZ will be outselling the LS and Aviator AND doing it with minimal to no incentives compared to the $5K-$8K incentives required to sell the old models. Vast improvement for both the dealers and Ford. And don't write off Mercury just yet - let's see what they show at Chicago. That's typically where the Mercury versions get introduced rather than Detroit.