By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
Speaking of the other D3 sedan - do you think we might see more Lincoln design cues (Continental like) than we see in the Mark S? How will the driving dynamics compare between the two D3 sedans?
Any other tidbits welcome!
Prices haven't been set in stone yet. Thats still quite some time away before being narrowed down to an aproximate range. Don't expected $55K+ prices either. The emphansize of american luxury is that it's affordable.
As for time, the same. At this stage everything is being narrowed down to time and suppliers, and what they are able to do, and most importantly, retrofitting the factory.
Production models rarely look as good as the concepts - Zephyr is a good example as you indicated. Most at the Detroit show said the Mark S looked production ready. ANT has hinted that it was 90 - 95% of the production version.
In view of the fact that few people are calling the concept drop-dead beautiful, I am not sure what they could do to hurt it. Different (wider or full-width) tail lights have been mentioned and would likely help the rear end treatment. Heyjewel was in a focus group for Lincoln so if we don't like the final version, we can blame him. hahahaha
Ford has learned a thing or two about doing nice interiors. I don't know about the thingy on top of the dash but otherwise, I am happy with the interior on the concept.
Pretty funny, Bruce :>)
This vehicle they're calling the Emm Kay Ess was not one of the 2 they asked my opinion of. Had it been there it would have finished 3rd.
Unfortunately, yes. "Sick" is the new "bad". I've heard Jr. use it on American Chopper and I still don't like it.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Phat was in there somewhere but I haven't heard that for quite awhile. My mentality must be more like the goofy guy on the Hemi commercial - "Sweeeet!"
Those names though are supossed to be pronounced Mark-S and Mark-X. That is what Lincoln stand guy was refering the cars as in the Industry Days preview. ANT14 could probably confirm this.
MK MW (Mark My Words), this is STOOPID and the folks at Cadillac are laughing their MK As off.
Even many of the folks who loved the LS were a bit ticked it didn't have a real name.
OK, Allen, you can get back up now :>)
I personally dislike the whole MARKeting issue. But I've been saying it in the past, Fords' marketing/advertising has always been lackluster. It needs a major overhaul.
Looking through the local Sunday paper, I also find no Ford, Mercury, or Lincoln (or Jaguar or Land Rover) ads in the section where dealers usually scream about their alleged bargains. Chevrolet and Chrysler ads on the other hand are ubiquitous.
So Lincoln's message may be a little fuzzy (Reach higher? Live well?), but even that is muted and very limited. Of course they can no longer use something like "unique in all the world," because they are now just dressed up Fords, but something catchier could help.
The Mark S can't get here soon enough. Even with its lack of originality, it will help, and hopefully give Lincoln a chance to recover. But Lincoln needs to let people know they still exist.
I myself have this major issue with L/M advertising, or lack thereof. "American Luxury", now "Reach Higher" (from what? The grave?) There isn't clear direction from marketing because they are trying to cover all basis.
This occured previously with Mercury. For awhile, Mercury was at a standstill, not knowing where it was headed but thanks to Elena Ford, she cut a clear path for them.... And essentially remade Mercury, as what it originally was..."Clones with more Chrome of Fords", and there's nothing wrong with that, some of Mercury's best sales years were done with that in mind. Even advertising strongly to a younger female demographic, BUT it has a clear path.
In the case of Lincoln, it's currently in that transition period. It'll take the MKX, and MKX to cut a path for Lincoln. And just in the case of Mercury, it'll take 2-3 years to truely see if it has paid off.
It's just in this case (as my opinion) marketing is not quite getting it and/thereof/case being, they really need to let go of tactics of the past, and pave themselves a new road even if there's some stumps to remove along the way.
As for power, every test we have read of the Volvo XC90 has good things to say about this engine. The power, fuel economy, sound quality, etc. has been mentioned. We don't know the weight of the Mark S yet, but 0-60 times around 6 seconds wouldn't surprise me. I would call that very decent.
Pricing will be critical. Based on what Lincoln has (and hasn't) done the past few years, I don't believe the Lincoln brand can command a $50K price for their cars - no matter how good they might be. With what we know of the Mark S at this point, I do think it would be a compelling package at around $40K, though.
ANT, can you confirm the production version will have some manual control capability?
Hey, I know most people probably just put it in "D" and forget about. However, there is a good sized group of us for whom driving is more than just a boring commute to work everyday. If I didn't want to be engaged in the driving experience, I would just buy a used Camry, go to sleep, and forget about it.
I don't want manual control for drag racing so I don't care if it shifts faster or not. The main thing that I like about manual control is the ability to select and hold the lower gears in the 5-25 MPH heavy-traffic crawl, thus eliminating the constant up and downshifting that an automatic naturally does. An automatic transmission cannot "see" the traffic patterns or the traffic signals.
Mountain driving is another area where manual control is desirable whether you are climbing or descending. In "D" backing off the throttle for a corner will cause an upshift - accelerating out of the corner causes a downshift. This can be aggravating, unnecessary, and unnatural.
Lastly, I am not afraid to admit that I like to have fun when I drive. I take pride in driving smoothly and safely, but I USE the engine, transmission, and suspension from time to time. I don't just want a transportation module.
ANT, from your prior posts, I think you agree with me on about everything I just wrote! Thanks for the opportunity to rant just a bit!
For the most part, I prefer a stick ... but I bought a Lincoln LS not too long ago with an automatic and select-shift. I thought I would use the selector more often, but I've found that I now drive in D about 95% of the time. HOWEVER, the select-shift is invaluable for that other 5% of the time when I'm either tackling the twisties or, more importantly, stuck in traffic. I hate the fact the tranny will jump around between 1st and 3rd while i'm in bumper-to-bumper. Being able to put it in 2nd and leave it there makes it MUCH smoother AND saves gas.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
But for the record, don't use Select-Shift for greenlight sprints because it's not as quick as full automatic D4 mode.
I don't think "Marcus" will be pulling in many BMWs as trades.
Anyone take a quick look at the new Volvo S80 ? Supposedly a media embargo till the 31st, but the pics are out there....
The new Volvo S80 will use the 4.4L 315hp V8 which will also be in the MKS.
i think this is a huge mistake. Once again, an american manufacturer looks to canibalize their own sales. This isn't like Ford vs Lincoln, this is 2 luxo names under the same corporate umbrella selling the same car. At least, before, Lincoln offered a RWD V8 to Volvo's FWD I6. If both are full-size AWD transverse V8, what the heck is the point? I guess they are banking all sales on aesthetic preferences.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
At the end of the day, I guess I am expecting the S80 to be a bit up-market from the Lincoln but still below the Jaguar XJ range.
The Escape/Mariner twins also have proves that because of the Mariner's inception, it really didn't cabanalize each others numbers, rather, together they posted better numbers than the previous years only sold Escape.
And this is another reason the Edge and MKX will be very similar yet appeal to 2 totally different audiences. It's better to cover all your bases and differentiate the vehicle on styling, fitments, and driving dynamics.
Also, there's a bit of a size difference as well to take into consideration.
As for the TC, it is just grossly overpriced as far as MSRP is concerned and you can buy one for 10-15K off sticker. I am hoping that there will be a trend to more reasonable pricing with less reliance on huge incentives.
Remember back around '89 when Lexus was trying to establish themselves? They offered a great automobile at a relatively low price compared to other luxury brands. Once they built the name, prices went up. I see Lincoln needing to do this to some degree. The Lincoln brand has lost some its cachet and I just don't see many buyers willing to pay $50k for a Lincoln. I don't think Volvo suffers from that baggage.
The Volvo may well cover a wider price range. It sounds like there will be a FWD 6 cylinder version. I haven't heard anything about a FWD V6 MKS.
Again, my thinking may be all wet on this pricing issue. If so, I guess there is always the Zephyr.
We'll see what happens.
Oh, and, for the record, I have both a Volvo and Lincoln, so the buyers are much closer than most people think, IMHO. At least, with the 2 I have, one is FWD Turbo 5-cyl and the other RWD V8, so they are distinct. Take those powertrains away, however, and I'd be hard pressed to pick between them ... I think I'd have to take the Volvo for its seat, though.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Well I've crossed shopped both Volvo and Lincoln before, even though I landed at Lincoln, although I was looking at 2 totally different extremes in vehicles...one AWD and T-I-5, the other RWD V8. This isn't to say it doesn't happen, but each have their own attributes that some customers are deswayed to one or the other.
And at the end of the day, as long as it's one or the other, then it's all good.
but, if the new S80 and MKS go through as stated, that will no longer be true, which was my original complaint.
And at the end of the day, as long as it's one or the other, then it's all good.
I don't buy that, either. Look at GM. On occassion, they've gotten themselves a clue and realize too much redundancy is hurting their bottom line, so they start cutting back models of a particular division until it no longer justifies itself, then it is eliminated entirely.
Lincoln and Volvo each sold 123k cars last year. Its bad enough they have to split such a small market share without selling the same damned car. Sooner or later, if the lines continue to blur and they are no longer distinctive, someone will get a clue and realize eliminating one of the divisions will equal more profit.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Although in their case (or on some of their projects), sporty traits, or luxury trait goals are morphed after the original planned vehicle has started to be produced. Instead of at the starting point of the development project.
In there case, GM has some vehicles that do allow different buyers, to be attracted to the specific vehicle where they have been successful. Like their pickup line, Chevy/GMC.
IN the case of Mercury, their best sales years have always been when they are twins to Fords...Not only in unit sales of financially speaking as well.
A twin or triplet is fine. It's the quad + that can make it harder. And by twin/triplets, I'm talking about Escape/Tribute/Mariner, where styling and some suspension/insulation aspects vary among them. Definately not in the manner of the MKS/S80 which it's many more changes that differentiate them dramatically.
HOUSTON WE HAVE A PROBLEM! You can't say you aren't going up market to compeye with Cadi and that you are remaining as "affordable American luxury" and price this car starting at $43K. It's not even RWD biased. A STS strat at 42K, a Lexus GS at 44K, an Infiniti M AWD is $43K. An S80 starts at basically $38K. Somewhere around $35K-$36.5K is reasonable. Maybe even $38K. But you put it above $40K and tell Ford I said be prepared to lose money and have peopel claiming Lincoln should be discontinued as a brand. Lincoln has a nackt for pricing too high. Look at the Zephyr. NOBODY is paying 30K for a Zephyr. The mark up is like $4K. Dealers are happy to give them to you at $28K which is where the base price should be!! If Ford is moving to a more straight forward pricing, then what is going on? I'll say this though. I wouldn't touch the Zephyr price of entry now. If they are selling at $27-$28k now, when the 3.5 and AWD come in, we are definitely playing ball at $30K, especially since it has been said to be testing north of 250hp. I say give the Zephyr 265hp and let the Fusion have 250hp. Toyota has the Camry at 269hp and the New Lexus Camry (Sorry I meant ES, how could I get those confused) at 275hp. $100 bet the ES is heavier than the Zephyr and that 10hp difference is gobbled up.
HOUSTON WE HAVE A PROBLEM! You can't say you aren't going up market to compeye with Cadi and that you are remaining as "affordable American luxury" and price this car starting at $43K. It's not even RWD biased. A STS strat at 42K, a Lexus GS at 44K, an Infiniti M AWD is $43K. An S80 starts at basically $38K. Somewhere around $35K-$36.5K is reasonable. Maybe even $38K. But you put it above $40K and tell Ford I said be prepared to lose money and have peopel claiming Lincoln should be discontinued as a brand. Lincoln has a nackt for pricing too high. Look at the Zephyr. NOBODY is paying 30K for a Zephyr. The mark up is like $4K. Dealers are happy to give them to you at $28K which is where the base price should be!! If Ford is moving to a more straight forward pricing, then what is going on? I'll say this though. I wouldn't touch the Zephyr price of entry now. If they are selling at $27-$28k now, when the 3.5 and AWD come in, we are definitely playing ball at $30K, especially since it has been said to be testing north of 250hp. I say give the Zephyr 265hp and let the Fusion have 250hp. Toyota has the Camry at 269hp and the New Lexus Camry (Sorry I meant ES, how could I get those confused) at 275hp. $100 bet the ES is heavier than the Zephyr and that 10hp difference is gobbled up.
I could see buyers cross shopping the S80 with Acura RL, Lexus GS, Mercedes E-class and Audi A6. I just don't see the MKS playing in that league. Of course if the Lincoln is semi-competitive there and can offer a lower price, they could have a winner. The MKS would certainly look like a strong alternative to loaded V8 Buick Lucernes or Chrysler 300s. Lincoln could easily justify a higher price than those - but not $10K more.
C&D's blurb indicated production about a year from now and a price around $40K. They could be wrong, of course.
Navigator prices are too high for a vehicle that has been essentially the same since introduction (and the 2007 improvements won't change that essential sameness). The F150 LT price is likewise too high if the 2006s must be pitched with a $4,000 rebate.
But this is what Lincoln does pricewise. How can they price the full-size MKS with V-8 and AWD at $36,000, when a loaded mid-size Zephyr with only a 3.0 V-6 and FWD is priced at $35,000? Don't you think they will try to charge even more for it when the 3.5 and AWD are installed?
Either they must lower prices across the board and truly shoot for affordable luxury (like Nissan Maxima, Chrysler 300, Hyundai Azera, Toyota Avalon...but division-wide), or continue to pretend they are playing in the arena with Audi, Cadillac and BMW by using liberal incentives.
Gotta disagree with the reasoning, if not the premise. 2007 is really the third gen of the Navigator. 2003 introduced a huge raft of changes and improvements, the most important of which to me were independent rear suspension which helps the Nav handle surprisingly well, and the gorgeous interior, vastly better than the original.
Gotta agree though that the sticker is in la-la land. Mine stickered at over $63K with every option except the pop-out running boards. My X-plan price with rebates was closer to $52K.