Lincoln MKS

[Deleted User]

Ford supplied that date when the decision was made to move production to Chicago. They apparently think they will need that much more time to tool up production at that site.

akirby

Yes, but that information did not come directly from Ford. It came from a Ford supplier who said that's what Ford told them. Doesn't mean it's not accurate, but it should still be taken with a grain of salt. A lot of things could change in 2 years also. I'm sure they'll launch it as soon as possible.

Also remember that in some cases production delays are due to parts suppliers and their (in)ability to provide enough parts. I don't know how many Yamaha V8s Volvo is selling today but I bet adding 50K units per year is a huge increase.

brucelinc

Yes, but that information did not come directly from Ford. It came from a Ford supplier who said that's what Ford told them. Doesn't mean it's not accurate, but it should still be taken with a grain of salt.

Precisely. I don't mean to muddy the waters further but did Ford ever say that the MKS was to be built in Atlanta or was that just speculation by Automotive News or some other source? Are we sure that Chicago wasn't the intended plant all along? Based on what is already built in Chicago and what was built in Atlanta, Chicago would seem to make more sense.

I understand that in large companies the right arm doesn't always know what the left arm is doing. Still, it seems odd if the decision to close Atlanta was spur of the moment. Why gear up to build a new model in Atlanta if there was some prior knowledge that the plant may be doomed?

akirby

I think Ford said or at the very least hinted at Atlanta. I also think this latest round of plant closings came about very recently as a direct result of Mark Fields' new plan.

douglasr

Fellow Citizens...

The Continental 2002 was not a FAD car or a purely retro design. It is no more retro than the new Rolls-Royce Phantom. It spoke to a pure design element that began by accident with the full sized clay model previewed in July 1958 for the 1961 Model Year. That car saved Lincoln, and it is a well documented fact that Mr. McNamara threatened to cancel Lincoln without some fresh ideas---hence the Engel T-Bird stretch that became the 1961 Lincoln. The bulbous monster intended for '61 that the Ford studio designed would have killed the brand then---unintentionally. Had the 2002 Continental become reality, it would have given Lincoln cache that it needs, though I can see why someone might think it to be a "fad" or retro car, but it is not. Had it hit the showrooms eighteen months ago, Chrysler 300 sales would be down to a degree. 300 was based from the Exner designed 1952 K310 show car and the 1954 Ghia D'Elegance---but hardly a retro car, as Freeman Thomas (now working for Ford) and Ralph Gilles intended it to be. The 2002 Continental was merely the Lincoln iteration of the same concept. And that car had a V12!

My point is that Lincoln needs the same concept executed on a higher market level than 300. Yes, they need a new car too for the Lexus-Infiniti-Acura crowd, people that grew up on Japanese imports and never drove a blue blooded American V8 when they were young---primarily because it was not then practical to do so. Engine technology has evolved making the rwd/awd high performance V8 coupled with fuel and emissions economies and standards a practical reality. Aluminum manufacture makes this possible with a weight of 4,500 pounds. Lincoln has within its grasp both medium and high performance V6, V8, Supercharged V8, V10, and V12 motors. Cadillac is already testing its 60 degree XV12 in Escalades, and its new plant at Wixom set up for premium engine manufacture.

Where is Lincoln? The "Z" is a success because it is $10,000 less than the car it replaced, and uses all computer cad/cam engineering, better packaging, etc. But that will not suit the top end of the market. Few people will buy a top-line luxury car if they perceive it to be a 32% solution grafted from a cheaper car-line. Lincoln made no move to replace the Town Car. It should be introduced in 12 months, making the 1998-2007 Town Car adhere to the long-standing decade-design tradition at Lincoln begun by Leland. Town Car sales have dipped because most people have already bought one if not two of the current model, they are waiting for its replacement. Ford Motor has both the engineering and design talent to beat the competition---with Lincoln. They won't lose a sale to Jaguar, both cars appealing to different groups. They are not using what they have on the shelf and at hand to make better cars, it's as though they have blinders on.

The idea of a "smaller" nimble, sportier and more economical luxury car was in part pioneered by Lincoln with the first Zephyr of 1936---and that car had small bore 267 CID V12. Packard and Cadillac followed suit. So there is nothing wrong with today's Zephyr (Ok Z), nor attempting to capture buyers outside the Ford tent with S, (No I won't call it a "Mark"). There is something wrong with ignoring a core market that is the cornerstone of the brand. I don't agree that the LaNeve Doctrine is the correct approach across the board for Lincoln. That is what Messrs Ford, Fields, and Ms Stevens seem to be doing to Lincoln today---copying Cadillac is bad music.

Beating them at their game is the tune---I'd love to see a Lincoln that could outrun the Nurburgring tested Cadillac V series. And the Imperial is around the corner, and it will have the SRT8 and V10 motor. Where are those Lincolns? You'll never get someone out of their BMW/Mercedes/Lexus without it. And who says they can't have a dash of flash to go along with it? "Euro is dead" Mr. Horbury stated. But where is the red-blooded Lincoln that I can drive with my right foot? RWD is not just for bracket racers...it's where the top-line cars go when you want to take the road and the crown with it. It's going to be a long 24 months before Chicago starts producing Lincolns.

Just once I'd like Bill Ford to come screeching to a halt in a Lincoln prototype, get out and say: "In this car, We own the American Road...!"

DouglasR

fsmmcsi

It does seem obvious that Ford will at least want to upgrade the MKS by the time it comes out, but late 2008 is too late for me to wait. I don't know why they even bothered to bring it to the auto shows.

Maybe the revised Montego / Five Hundred will be good enough, but will they also not be out until late 2008?.

Instead of wasting time and money on a the lost cause named Jaguar, Ford needs to ralize that they are up against the ropes and need new products in the USA right NOW!

mooseman1

No joke?(sarcasm) I said that in the post right after e one you replied to.

I'll let this one pass as you admitted your error elsewhere. Though the tone seems a bit hostile. I'm simply debating you, not trying to screw your wife. Take it easy.

Okay let's talk numbers because you are using more twists than a politician. Yes the G35 sells in less numbers than a MKZ if you annualize the sales. HOWEVER THE G35 SELLS AT A HIGHER TRANSACTION PRICE. As does the 3 Series, as does the Lexus IS, as does the Cadi CTS. Less volume ,more exclusivity, and more money. Focus on the dollars not the volume.

Don't put Audi as a benchmark, they haven't been able to crack into the market at the rate they would like too, AND THEY WILL ADMIT IT.

And how would you know that? I'd like a link. The G35 and the Zephyr are very close in price. Transaction differences would likely only be 2k or so, at the very best. So, if you have some evidence to support your claims, I'd love to see it.

You still ignore that 60% of Lexus volume comes from FWD vehicles. The TL sells almost 80k a year and it is FWD with no AWD option, just as the ES350. So, the TL is only outsold by the 3 series by about 28k cars, and there are a multitude of different models, including coupes, convertibles, and wagons. The TL is offered one way. In fact, the TL sedan sells almost the same amount as the 3 series sedan, about 78k to 81k. 3k is hardly a runaway success given the much higher regard BMW has for its nameplate.

And, gross dollars is not the final arbitor of whether a car is better for a manufacturer, it is net dollars. My guess is that Ford has very little invested in the MKZ and the cost to build it is probably far less than a 3er. I would bet that Ford is doing cartwheels over the thought of the MKZ doing 40-50k sales a year, given their target was 20k. Business cases are built on expected ROI, and Ford obviously felt 20k would provide an ROI worth pursuing. I'd guess 100% bonus would be rather exciting to see, no?

Yes but two things. We are only talking about cars, so slash the SUV sales that make up the chunk of that 60% out of your argument. And secondly, Lexus is the largest and is still trying to compete with BMW and Mercedes on the German's level, and LEXUS WILL ADMIT IT. Also, BMW is the most profitable luxury nameplate in the US.

They also said the Zephyr would have 210hp. I guess it having 221 at launch is illogical? Ahhh good political spin there. The increased horsepower was due to the new SAE measurement. NOT because Ford upped the power. Good try, try again next time. If they say it will have 315, is not the most logical thing to think, since they make the car NOT you, that the car will have 315hp?

BMW has also seen specific nameplate sales decreases, specifically the X3, X5, and Z4, and stagnation in the 3er as it made no real sales gains over 2004. And, SUVs are integral to the situation as they provide investment capital for Lincoln's expansion. It is very imprtant for future models for the MKX to exist and be a sales success. The MKX will easily outsell the RWD based X3, probably by a 2:1 margin. As for BMW itself, I own one, and so does my bro-in-law. Both of our cars are less than reliable. BMW does have real reliability issues, though not nearly as bad as M-B's. I hope like hell Lincoln decides not to try and compete with the German precision of M-B.

OK, so why does the 3.0 in the 2006 Mazda 6 (same basic engine) not have 221hp? Mazda lists theirs at 215hp, up from 2005's. Ford even stated that they asked their team to try and get a little extra power out of the 3.0 and were pleasantly suprised that they managed to massage it up to 221hp without too much work.

This motor also previously produced 232hp in other uses, namely the LS and the Type-S. Anyhow, if you'd like to wager on whether we see hp increases on the 3.5L Cyclone and even the 4.4 before launch I'd be happy to wager a "pride" point.

driverdm

Okay let's agree to disagree and get back to the MKS. You and I could go back and forth for quite some time. Perhaps if we are ever at the same car show together we would debate and have a good time looking at Lincolns.

I think that the February 2008 release is a little long in the tooth. However, let me tell you guys this. I saw a white Zephyr today at a Lincoln dealership. Salesmen were outside, showing two to prospective customers. It was real sharp looking. Hopefully, the MKS will bring in the same following. Though I think it should be RWD, others hace shown that it may not have to be.

I still believe that Lincoln should get its own luxury platform in the way of the DEW99 but that is me. I would love to see a Lincoln luxury coupe based off the Mustang but not costing an arm and a leg. Maybe something equivalent to a 6 Series in looks and distinction but a 300C is price.

hairong

You want Lincoln have "its own luxury platform" then you'd "love to see a Lincoln" based on the Mustang.

What you really want is "Lincoln should be RWD".

What you really don't like is Lincoln going down market and Ford spending money proping Jag but not Lincoln (which was a mistake, I agree). Sharing Dew98 with upmarkect Jag was OK, but sharing CD3/D3 with lowly Ford/Mazda is not. Well, try think of MKS is sharing with Volvo (not D3), it may make you feel better.

While I understand your points totally, and I myself don't like Lincoln's new direction, "Advancing American Dreams", you have to understand Lincoln needs to make money now. Look, if Ford can make money on Fusion, you can be sure Lincoln will make more money on each MKZ than Infinity would on a G35. Higher transaction price be damned, unique platform, RWD, so what?

You have a different view of what Lincoln should be, we all do. But bottom line is, Lincoln needs to survive, and Ford can't (or won't) spend a lot of money on Lincoln until the whole company is healthy.

douglasr

Fellow Drivers & Citizens,

"We have skills in team building, in computer technology, in cultural divesity...Our problem is that the company didn't reinvest in new designs." Wixom UAW Leader Burke Morris, quoted by Harold Meyerson in the Washington Post, 02-15-06. about Wixom. Concluding in his column: "Doing Good Jobs, But Losing Them", MR. Meyerson states with respect to Wixom: "...but speaking for your countrymen, who are seeing American Manufacturing dismantled and the middle torn from our economy: Woe is Us."

Mark S may well make good use of a Volvo platform, and judicious use of the Volvo engine block, and certainly attracts Lexus-Infiniti and other buyers who would not normally consider Lincoln. I applaud the attempt, but that will not carry the day---it will be too long in coming, 24 months is too long to wait.... And, Yet the closing of Wixom, especially when Cadillac/Corvette has their Performance Engine Division Plant hand assembling engines down the street, is far more than an issue of rwd vs. fwd, or awd vehicles.

If Wixom closes in 2007 without an annoncement from MR. Ford that he is building a new facility for a new Lincoln to succeed Town Car and compete against the best that BMW, Mercedes, et.al., not to mention Imperial have to offer, then the W.O.E. will stand for more than Wixom's Orderly Epitaph....it will eventually stand for With-Out Employment for Wixom's 1,657 workers. A larger issue will also stand out: that Ford is reluctant to invest in building great cars, specifically American Luxury Cars in America---effectively ceding the market to Cadillac and Imperial. Cadillac is already expanding its Grand River plant with a new $152Mn body department to accomodate the new rwd/awd platform soon to be announced, and Mr. Zetsche and LaSorda are preparing Imperial. Lincoln must act---to directly compete against all the best the competitors have to offer. Having shifted production outside U.S. borders, leaving the nip of Chicago for Mark S, Lincoln becomes the icing on the cake rather than a layer of it---at Ford Motor.

This will be the denouement of the "Way-Forward" Plan at Ford Motor for Lincoln---regardless of how well intentioned Mr. Ford, Fields, and Ms Stevens are. S is a noble adventure. But it is not enough for ALL of Ford to be healthy, each part must be---and time is running out. It is not enough to wait until Ford Motor's automotive operations are profitable before a new Lincoln and its attendant factory are built. It is the attitude and intent of the management that now matters, the perception as well as the product must be equally exciting as the production of it. Without this, I fear that Lincoln will become nothing more than cars built "With Ordinary Execution", and "With-Out Excitement"---the expeditious taking place of the excellent---the embodiement of WOE.

If all that remains of Lincoln is the S beyond the Z...no matter how good they sell, what will happen when the market shifts again against Ford Motor? The competition is not sitting still. The S will become the swan-song for Lincoln, having been borne on the cusp of Volvo. Without product...appealing to both the traditional and non-tradional buyer, there will be no Lincoln left to argue about.

Now, S or not, it is no longer a matter of division versus division, or company versus company, for today what is happening at Lincoln might well happen to your own job, and represents the embodiment of what is happening in American manufacturing. No longer a matter of fwd versus rwd or awd----ergo Lincoln must inspire the loyalty of those who know it best, and that must happen in a new factory with new product and platforms. Hopefully S will be but one in the rank of a new era at Lincoln. But the clock is ticking---with-out-exception.

DouglasR

savetheland

"You have a different view of what Lincoln should be, we all do. But bottom line is, Lincoln needs to survive, and Ford can't (or won't) spend a lot of money on Lincoln until the whole company is healthy"

If making money is so important for Ford to start diluting Lincoln heritage and identity what is the point to throw huge amount of investments in Jaguar without any return or I would even dare to say without any hope to get any returns in near future (and most likely never).

We all now how stupid and ineffective Ford management can get. But still not to that extent when company is on the brink of bankruptcy. BMW get rid of Land Rover very quickly and now makes tons of money. Does it make sense to keep a division than drains money year after year for more than a decade and then invest another billion and half and at the same time starve profitable core brands to death?

heyjewel

"We have skills in ... cultural diversity... " Wixom UAW Leader Burke Morris

Well that'll get great cars built, eh? You know they spend a whole lotta time on that in auto factories in Japan and Germany where the best cars get built. PC and AA are killing the American economy.

"for today what is happening at Lincoln might well happen to your own job,..."

It's already happened to mine, software engineering. Used to be I'd meet some great friends at work. Now, most of them speak a foreign language. There are more H1B workers in Silicon Valley now than engineers of American heritage. More get off the boats and planes everyday and now our fearless leader GW has been suckered into pushing for even MORE H1Bs this year. More workers from India, Taiwan, Red China, Pakistan, ... who will happily work for less than an American engineer. Oh, the 'party' line is that they pay them the same but of course that's BS. See, these engineers are basically indentured servants. One screw-up and it's back to the turd world country of origin. Biggest problem for American engineers is, we don't have the UAW to take care of us. When we're out (as I am right now) we're OUT.

Oh, but they don't bring all the engineers here to work. SOme of the biggest names in the business including Cisco and HP and Oracle and on and on are not investing in AMerica anymore. They're building HUGE development campuses in India mainly where the pay is dirt cheap. It's not just call center worker jobs going over there, it's the whole kit and kaboodle.

You think Ford is going to invest in a new mfg plant for Lincoln in Wixom or some other rust belt area? My money says Ford's next big investment will be a plant in China. Yeah, soon you can pick your poison - a Japanese-designed Lincoln built in Mexico or a Swedish designed Lincoln built in China. After all, they have to compete, right? ANd the first Red Chinese automobiles are being imported to the USA as we speak. And our fearless leader, GW, say no help for the auto industry. No tariffs to help level the field against cars with a far lower cost to mfr and from countries whose govts will fully subsidize industry and manipulate money exchange rates to help their guys.

We all, as American workers, are being sold down the river by politicians (on BOTH sides of the aisle) and business leaders and there aint a da__ thing we can do about it. It won't be over until we're the ones pullin the rickshaws.

marsha7

Thanks for the explanation...it helps...

scootertrash

Don't get bogged down in their smoke-screen.

It's actually pretty simple.
If they build exciting, desirable cars that people actually want to buy, and then keep them fresh instead of milking them until they're dead, success will follow and all the excuses won't be necessary.

scootertrash

One more thing:

Post could not be completed due to login delay!

navigator89

No problem.

scootertrash

scootertrash

The 1999 Lincoln looked like a 1997 Mitsubishi Diamante, so why shouldn't the 2008 Lincoln MKS look like a 2005 Acura?

fsmmcsi

I see enough RLs in southern CA, and the MKS looks nicer, at least in photos. THE RL is just too rounded.

As for the schools, how true. If we just changed to a complete voucher system, where parents could send their children to any school they choose, most of the problems would vanish in just a few years.

akirby

Sorry, but I don't see any real resemblance.

qbrozen

I'm with Akirby.

I honestly can't find any similar details. I look at the overall sillouette = different. Taillights = different. Beltline = different. Grille = different. Hood = different. Headlights = different. I could go on and on and on.

[Deleted User]

The general shape of the grill and the intakes below the grill are the same. The wheel cut-outs are almost the same. The orientation of the tail lights and trunks are the same. The lower character lines running along the cars are similar. That said, to my eye, they don't look the same. Part of it is the MKS is a much bigger car. Another big aspect is the shape of the rear doors. The cut-out adopted for the MKS looks much more like certain Lexus or Infiniti models. That look is also used by BMW, VW (on the new Passat) and even Buick. The MKS is "current" and to some extent fashionable, but hardly remarkable (except of course for being a Lincoln).

The MKS looks like a mishmash of Japanese and German luxury car themes. Not bad, but hardly evocative of anything that says American luxury. People love or hate the Chrysler 300 and the Cadillac CTS and STS, but regardless of which side of the fence you sit, they look American. Right now Lincoln (and Ford) don't have the cojones to do the same. If they had, the Crown Vic would have been re-skinned as a 427 by now, and the LS would have morphed into something more Continental-like and upmarket.

scootertrash

The grille shape, doors, tailights and trunk look interchangable.

Here's the body shell they are attaching all those Acura parts to:


Doesn't the "Way Out" include any fresh ideas?

Do they really think coming out with uninspired copies of 5 year old Japanese ideas is the way to inspire buyers?

qbrozen

I know you said they look different overall, but I still wanted to address some of your points.

The general shape of the grill and the intakes below the grill are the same.

The Acura has a point on the bottom, the Lincoln does not. I'll admit the top line and sidelines are sort of similar, but the Acura's also reminds me of Mazda, which, i remind you, is in the Ford family.

The orientation of the tail lights and trunks are the same.

The Lincoln tailights go up over the top of the fender, so I'm not sure what you mean.

The lower character lines running along the cars are similar.

You mean the rocker panel? Its straight and flat, I'll give ya that. That one aspect looks like ALOT of cars to me. There is only so much you can do with the bottom of a car.

qbrozen

I think I'll get a pic of a Cavalier and compare it to a BMW 740 ... not that they look alike, but I'll just say they do. Heck, they both have 4 doors, 4 tires, a windshield, grille, etc, etc.

Here's a tip, fellas, there is nothing new. If you stare at something long enough and pick it apart to its smallest components, you'll find its been done before somewhere.

kjnorman

I think the MkS looks better than the RL. Yes its similar, but the MkS has just enough edginess to make it interesting and "ohh, I want one.." rather than just another anominous drone.

scootertrash

I completely agree with your assessment. but there are two additional factors:

-This is a "show-car" The real thing is always neutered to some extent and generally dumbed-down.
-This would be a nice looking, but not revolutionary car TODAY. Just think how dated and bland it will look two years from now. It's going to look like 5 year old Japanese cars.

That's pretty sad if that's the best they can do.

[Deleted User]

"Anominous drone." I like that! Great way to say something is the new Cavalier.

And I completely agree with Scootertrash. What's with showing a production model so far ahead of Job 1? It is not going to even make one more sale right now.

kjnorman

Unfortunately you are very correct.

It is a nice car for now, how knows what 2008 will bring with regards to competition?

Also, the show cars always look sooo much better. Take the Aviator show car. Not radically different from the MkX (interior aside) but it just looks a lot better in my opinion. I was kind of excited about the new Aviator but now I am just so-so on it.

I will be interesting to know what the final MkS will be like. I would not be able to afford one now, but one in three years would be right for my timing - but will the shape stand the test of time....?

nvbanker

>The hype with the introduction says, “People want refinement, rather than ostentation. Lincoln MKS is a luxury car that doesn’t need to shout – it captivates with a whisper.” You might as well say, "we wanted to play it safe and conservative, because we really aren't inspired yet." I think that's fine for Toyotas and Lexuses, which sell more on quality than style.

Lincoln needs to grab some attention. A little ostentation on a well-screwed together car would help a lot.

Very well stated, gregg. I completely agree - I do, however, find some interest in this car. While I wish it didn't look quite so 500esque, it's got a lot of great stuff in it, and if they build it, I'm sure it'll be an outstanding car.

nvbanker

This MarkS could be the car that brings me back to Lincoln for a sedan - it's got great stuff in it, and a good design. The platform should be great. I'm very interested. One question though, ANT - with the alphabet soup names, dropping the heritage names, which hurts a bit, is the Lincoln brand name going away to be replaced with Mark???? Since all models will be Marks (MK), I'm wondering if pretty soon the brand will be Mark, like when Olds took their brand off their cars, and they had Auroras, Intrigues without Oldsmobile on them. :confuse:

[Deleted User]

I agree with you too. They are going to build it (unless Lincoln folds in the next two years).

I don't think it looks heavily 500-esque, as they have definitely captured the essence of new and about to be released "Japanese luxury sedans." It may be outstanding for Lincoln, but the question remains if that will be enough.

I'm sure, even given that they have exceeded careful and conservative sales forecasts, Ford would have liked to have the problem of a runaway hit with either the 500 or the Fusion. The S ain't gonna burn up the sales charts either. Still, if it sells a projected 50,000 units, it will be Lincoln's best seller. That's kinda good...and kinda sad.

nvbanker

I have thought for a while now, that Volvo and Mazda should be given to Lincoln Mercury dealers to sell. I know the buyers are different, but I don't see where that matters.

qbrozen

what do you mean?

that volvo and mazda should disappear as brands and their products absorbed into the Lincoln/Mercury lines?

Or do you just mean Lincoln/Mercury dealers should be Lincoln/Mercury/Volvo/Mazda dealers?

Because there is a very large Lincoln/Mercury/Mazda dealer in my home town. Its up to the dealer what they want to sell ... typically. There are some exceptions, I believe, where dealers of certain brands are restricted.

[Deleted User]

I took it to mean that Volvo and Mazda should contribute some platforms to Mercury for Mercury products.

They do so of course now, with the Montego and the Milan, but those are re-badged Fords. Skip the Ford step, and give Mercury a bit more class and distinction, without breaking the bank. Or get rid of the poor old thing.

ANT14

I'm not thrilled on this "Mark" nomeclature, thats just my personal opinion though. Mark this, Mark that, Mark etc. Hmmm, wouldn't it be ironic if some person (I'm sure he's out there) is named Mark S. Lincoln ?

nvbanker

>Trust me, you'll really notice the new Navigator Specially the grill.

Yeah - I've seen it. Don't think I like it, ANT..... It's over the top.

nvbanker

I meant that the Volvo & Mazda brands would be good cars for Lincoln dealers to also sell - give them some inventory, and dump Mercury. Since Lincoln seems to be the new Mercury of the Ford line.... Elena won't be happy with this, but.....

[Deleted User]

I see what you are saying.

BTW, Elena actually has no clue what has made Mercury successful in the past. Her surefire method of putting some mascara and lipstick on Ford models of course did increase sales for a time. After all, Mercury hardly had anything left to sell until the Mariner, Montego and Milan. But those increases have stalled.

If you go back to when Mercury sold 400,000 to 700,000 units per year, you will find that Ford was putting more effort into differentiation than they do now. Heck, even Taurus and Sable shared less than the Fusion and Milan do. And that expensive Mercury Windstar thing is a hoot.

displacedtexan

Who's Elena?

The MKS concept has openings on the front quarter panels, along with a big Lincoln star. Are these openings functional, or are they just cosmetic? I noticed the same openings on the Range Rover and on the Cadillac Escalade.

nvbanker

Elena Ford is running the Mercury Division. I believe she's Bill's sister.

Have they actually sold a Montego yet? I'm starting to see a lot of 500s on the road, but I think I've seen 2 Montegos. While I personally like them for a mid level car (lower mid level), even my guy at the Lincoln dealer says they're not selling.

Elena seems to have made Mercury the softer-sex's Ford alright. My wife loves 'em.

driverdm

"Heck, even Taurus and Sable shared less than the Fusion and Milan do."

I don't know if this is true. Is this a fact or your opinion? To the untrained eye, and those who aren't auto enthusiasts like ourselves, people may think that the Milan has no relationship to the Fusion. The Sable and Taurus weren't fooling anyone. Also, there is a lot of people who think the Milan is better than the Fusion and definitely looks better. With the old Sable, it was always "Might as well just get a Taurus. The Taurus looks better."

[Deleted User]

Well, I also think the Taurus looked better (except for the first generation, where Sable had a definite panache that Taurus did not).

However, to either me or the untrained eye, it was obvious that those two had different roof styling, and that the Sable was a longer car. Whereas the Fusion/Milan share almost everything--except the Milan drapes on a Mercury grill and fake brushed aluminum trim.

Are some people fooled? Sure! But park 'em next to each other, and even the auto-impaired can see the similarities if you point.

Still, who cares? Mercury needs more distinction, or it will die. And BTW, I too think the Milan is more attractive. Once again, who cares what I think? It ain't selling.

The MKS is definitely a different style from the 500. Unfortunately, it isn't going to stand out in the Japanese luxury crowd. It doesn't have an "American" look that both Chrysler 300 and Cadillac STS and CTS managed to impart. It will sell. But again, who cares? It won't burn up the charts, nor will it turn Lincoln back into a hot commodity as the 300 and CTS did for their divisions.

nvbanker

I saw a Montego an hour ago. They have sold 3 here. Not bad looking, really.

displacedtexan

"The MKS is definitely a different style from the 500. Unfortunately, it isn't going to stand out in the Japanese luxury crowd. It doesn't have an "American" look that both Chrysler 300 and Cadillac STS and CTS managed to impart."

Remove all Lincoln insignia, and I like the MKS for what it is. As a Lincoln, though, I think you're right. It doesn't have that American je ne se qois (sorry if I mangled the French).

If one really looks hard, and has an active imagination, the MKS does have some styling cues from past Lincolns. The hood crease is straight off of a 1959 Continental. The horizontal grille is somewhat reminiscent of the early ‘60’s Continentals. There is a hint of a shoulder line also reminiscent of the Town Cars, and the tail lights could remind one of a modern interpretation of the Town Cars of the ‘80’s. The latter two points are where the active imagination and some judicious squinting are needed.

[Deleted User]

But then I can also squint out some Lincoln lines in a CTS or STS. Heck, even a 300.

displacedtexan

LOL. But, that's not too unusual, is it? Ford's postwar "bathtub" design set styling trends in the 1950s. Lincoln followed Cadillac briefly into 1957's fin-foray, although thankfully never to Cadillac's extreme. Then, Chrysler and eventually Cadillac followed Lincoln into the unadorned, slab-sided look of the 1960s. Everyone apes success; few are the trend-setters.

nvbanker

Ford and Lincoln have been trendsetters. Once, when in Maui, I rented an 83 Thunderbird for a week. It was so fun to drive, seemed so well put together, and looked so different, I bought an 84 for my next car. And I loved it, kept it for 5 years, which may be a record for me. Then, in 86, a family member loaned me their Taurus for a weekend to babysit. Once again, fell in love with mostly, the way it drove. It was revolutionary, and too the feel of the T-bird and put it into an incredibly comfy sedan. So, I bought an 87 Sable a while later. Ford in the Phil Caldwell days changed the auto industry with those two cars. Lincoln has had a lot of firsts in its lifetime, and the 60 Continental was another time they changed the design history of the American car market. They were the first American company with the Luxury SUV, and other than Range Rover, were the first in the world. Now, everybody is on board. They were the first, and still are one of the few, with IRS in their SUVs, and the folding flat into the floor seats. A must have, for me. Ford was the Wagonmaster forever. They were the first with the 2 way tailgate, among other things. Ford was the first with the two sided keys, that you could put in either way.

Ford needs another Phil Caldwell and Donald Petersen to be President, and Bill Jr. should sit as Chairman, and watch the money. But they need some car guys at Ford with some lattitude to design again.

rerone

I can't believe Ford sent Jerry McGovern back to the UK, and shelved his fantastic concepts in favor of the MKS! Wow are they out of it. The Mark 9 concept could hang with any European coupe for substance and panache. Ditto the Continental Concept of 2002. Have you seen the new Navigator! Sad.

If I didn't know better I'd say Ford is trying to run Lincoln into the junkyard. The Zephyr is a joke too. When I pulled on the exterior door handle, I thought I broke it. The only quality component inside was the wood. Lincoln heritage deserves better.

driverdm

Those concepts would only sell to those old enough to know where those styling cues came from. I can understand why they didn't want to go with that since that market is only getting older and older. The younger markets are coming into money sooner and sooner and the imports are taking advantage. I personally wouldn't want anything to do with those old designs. Come on now.

The Mark 9 is horrid in my eyes. It doesn't have the sleekness of an SL or 6 Series or IS Coupe or G35 Coupe or Jag XK. Not that all of those are direct competitors but they are what is considered luxuriously and nicely styled coupes these days.