the handling of the BMW, the fit and finish of the Lexus, the interior of the Audi, Volvo safety and a great price even to get noticed
This describes the Acura TL. And in 2 years the TL will be redesigned as well as a bunch of other cars, like the Accord. Even the Azera will probably have been tweaked. Is Lincoln gonna make the debut at Ford's theater?
One of the best features is the leather and wood steering wheel rim without any seams at the places where you place your hands. Many steering wheels have wood on the top, with rough seams just where I want to place my hands, in safe positions somewhere between 9:30 and 10:00 O'Clock on the left and 2:00 and 2:30 on the right.
Even though i try to be thrifty, if the Mark S is out well before the revised Five Hundred and Montego, I will almost surely buy one. The new Volvo S80 version of this car also looks exceptionally nice, except that it will have a small trunk, the the Mark S will apparently share the large trunk of the Five Hundred, a very smart decision by Ford.
Lincoln announces a facelift of the Zephyr less than six months after it was introduced? IMNSHO, none of the suits have a shred of a clue about what a Lincoln should be. Better to kill the marque off rather than let it wither in near-luxury hell...
Yes, "Zephyr" will become an orphan after one year, and the denizens of The Glass House have seen fit to change Zephyr to Z, like the Mark S. Can there be any doubt as to the level of panic within the ranks? Sales of Zephyr dropped in January, so they're rushing to "fix" what does not need fixing.
No doubt some marketing clinic told them that people recognised the car as a Lincoln if they called it a Mark---who doesn't know the story of the Continental---of course they associate Mark with the Lincoln name. Calling all manor of products, Mark XYZ, whether four doors, pick-up trucks, and the like a Mark merely seeks to captialise upon the tradition of the brand---without the product. It is an anathma to me, and my many friends who have driven Lincolns for decades, why Ford Motor seems fit to disassemble what they have built up.
A Mark is a two door Continental, apart from the horrid Mark VI sedan (which sold in low numbers), that is what it remains. Today there's not a "Mark" in sight. Mr. Ford sits at Edsel Ford's desk---the man who created Continental in March 1939 on the V12 Zephyr chassis to replace the V12 K series which bowed out after 1940/1---and seems to have forgotten that fact. Zephyr was and is the perfect name for that car. Both embodied something new in the marketplace, both designed to garner customers at the entry level of the market. The Zephyr of the 1930's embodied the bold aerodynamic styling of Bob Gregorie--succeeding where Chrysler failed, and today's Ford Clone in the Zephyr using all CAD/CAM computer generated Rapid Prototyping engineering. Perfect market and historical sense to name the new Lincoln Zephyr. Sure, upgrade the engine, freshen the grille for '07, but don't change the name.
Neither of which addresses the failure of the 'Way-Forward' team to give Lincoln what it really needs. I forgot that only 50 people, amongst all the capable people at the Blue Oval, if-that-many, came up with this current plan to abrogate the traditions of the company and Lincoln built up over decades. The LaNeve marketing approach to Lincoln will not work to fix all of the problems---the man who radically altered Cadillac's path. S or not, Lincoln needs more:
First---Plan a true Mark, the Mark IX. Use the V/H architecture of Astons applied to Lincoln. From this you can build Continentals, Town Cars, a Mark--coupe and convertible. Mr. Zetsche isn't waiting. (And scrap the mark x name off the Aviator, call it that again!)
Second---A $350m greenfield site, a new factory built as you rebuilt Rouge, staffed with Wixom workers, who have the pride of Lincoln wresting on their shoulders, building an AWD/RWD platform. Invite the public to tour...make it your corporate showcase in America as Gaydon is in Europe. And I would even purchase the stone letters from the first Lincoln factory saved from the original Livernois Avenue plant and incorporate them in building. Bring back the excitement that Alfred Kahn once gave to Ford Motor--- making the building as exciting as the product.
Third---Use your casting plant in Koln, Germany to bring aboard high performance V8-V10-V12 small block engines to the Lincoln line. Outfox Mr. Lutz, you have to beat his chassis guys testing Cadillacs at Nurburgring.
Fourth---Give Dr. Bez a huge pay raise, bring him aboard as a consultant, because you won't pry him away from England, he's made Astons the leader within your company.
Fifth---The Mark S should be just S. If you're using Volvo components and platforms, it should embody a new product at Lincoln, the La Neve approach---apart from the traditional line. Take on Lexus if you chose, but do it with S, and 315.
Sixth---lock Freeman Thomas, J. Mays, and Peter Horbury in a design studio until they come up with a better set of ideas. S is nice for today, not my cup of tea, but it will be dated by the time it rolls out of Chicago.
Seventh---Announce tomorrow your plans. Tell the world that you are continuing the tradition that Mr. Leland started, and your grandfathers, and uncles improved upon.
Price tag: 10%-15% of what you have in the bank. Did your Way-Forward committee come up with that? And I wonder how many of those MBA's built their own car when they were 14-15-16 years old? Do they know? I know you do, MR. Ford, you have the people and the resources...use them to save Lincoln.
Otherwise, other than Carlos Ghosn, Zorro might object to the use of the name Z.
I am impressed with your rather eloquent posts DouglasR... but do you think anyone from Ford will be reading these and making changes that you suggest? I doubt it. You'd probably have better luck if you try catching one of these bigwigs in person..
"If I was a Lincoln dealer I'd look at it this way: by this fall the MKX and MKZ will be outselling the LS and Aviator AND doing it with minimal to no incentives compared to the $5K-$8K incentives required to sell the old models."
Well, it won't be hard to outsell the Aviator since they don't make em anymore. And while the Z might outsell the LS for this year, it is not nearly on the same sales path as the LS achieved when it was new, is it?
"And don't write off Mercury just yet - let's see what they show at Chicago. "
Well, here's what Mercury has shown at the Chicago show so far:
I hope you are right on the MKS, akirby. Two years is a long time to wait for something that is only competitive now.
It doesn't look good for Mercury, does it? I know Ford has made money by simply putting make-up on Fords and calling them Mercurys.
However, this is not the only way Mercury has made money in its history. The iconic '49-'51 Mercs shared nothing with the Fords. Throughout the 50s and 60s and even a few models into the 70s, 80s and 90s, they may have been identical underneath, but Mercurys often got unique body panels.
The first Mustangs and Cougars, for example, obviously shared a platform, but the Cougar went more upscale and elegant without losing sportiness. The 1966 Comet coupe was prettier than the Fairlane. The 1970 Mercury Marauder had a unique look from the big Ford whose body it shared. The Capri had a good (albeit short) run when it was not a Mustang clone. The original Sable did look upmarket from the Taurus.
The latest (Contour-based) Cougar shared nothing outwardly with any Ford model and was a great success for a couple years--like most successful coupes these days. Unfortunately, the coupe market is smaller and more fickle now, and as Mitsubishi has found with the Eclipse, demands serious styling changes no less than every three years or so to sustain sales (the iconic Mustang excepted).
Ford wanted to be able to go with longer model cycles and it cost them dearly. Whenever they started to wake up that their products were aging too much (thoughout the 70s, 80s, 90s and now...why do they keep having to re-learn the same lesson??), the only thing (they thought) to do to get new Mercurys out was change some trim and names of Fords. Of course it increases sales...sales were in the toilet.
But if Lincoln is shrinkin', why keep making fake Mercurys to fill in the showrooms that are being visited less and less? It will be interesting to see if there are any rabbits to be had from any hats. MKS can't turn Lincoln car sales around by itself, and they are talking friggin' 2009 for the other 500 based sedan.
The best thing about the MKS is that the body on the common corporate architecture is unique to Lincoln. The MKZ even with the 3.5 continues to be a clone of the Fusion body. Imagine how much less Cadillac would have moved up in the past few years if it was still taking Chevy bodies and grafting on Caddy front and rear ends and interiors like it used to?
I'd hate to see two more venerable names go down. But who woulda thought 20 years ago that Plymouth and Oldsmobile would be dead a few years down the road?
Mercury exists for 2 reasons: to give the Lincoln/Mercury only dealers lower priced products to sell and to allow unique styling and option packages for other Ford models. I'm sure we'll see one or two Mercury only or Lincoln/Mercury only models in the future once Ford gets profitable. Right now they can't afford it. I'd also like to see a Cougar and/or hardtop convertible like the Volvo.
I received my 3/2006 Autoweek Magazine. The MKS is shown next to a picture of the 2002 Continental Show car that supposedly inspired it.
Here's Autoweek's take: "The MKS is nothing like the stunning Continental Show car from 2002 and it is poorer for it. While Cadillac is making design headway, Lincoln is stuck in neutral"
While I was looking at the magazine, my 7 year old son walked by. He said "Wow, that car is cool." "Which one?", I asked. He pointed at the Continental Show Car. I asked what he thought of the MKS. "Kind of regular and plain, that's not a future car,is it?"
"Kind of regular and plain" pretty much says it all.
That is what I told the show-stand L-M Factory Rep for the Mark S, "it will appeal to Lexus buyers, but that's not a Lincoln..."---it's a whole new approach, the Volvoisation of Lincoln.
The real Mark X convertible they unveiled last year in 2004 was based from the 2002 Continental Design proposal. Marek Reichman, designer of the four-door Aston-Martin Rapide, did the beautiful Mark X convertible. He clearly understood Lincoln and Continental history when he penned this variation of the theme. Wixom could have built 35-45,000 sedans, 25,000 plus coupe and convertible Mark X. All based from the same platform as T-Bird and Mustang. A hot-rod motor would have suited many a buyer. Such a move would have been very profitable for Ford Motor and kept Wixom open. Not to mention amortised their investment in the platform. Both of those cars would have garnered waiting lists without incentives to move the metal. At least a dozen of my fellow Lincoln drivers all said they would buy one, three said they were going to mail in deposits. None of them have said they would buy the Mark S based on the photos.
Mark S represents the La Neve approach to Lincoln. A zippy video commercial with a heavy metal music backround can't be far behind, they're probably shooting it now.
Why Ford Motor has chosen to abandon traditional Lincoln and Continental styling cues for the morphed look astounds me. ST's son has it right. If Lincoln is going after the future generation and buyers, they've may have already lost the game with the S. Atleast Lincoln trying to do something---appealing to another group of buyers, but without new product, they risk alienating all those longtime owners that kept them in the game for decades. It was only yesterday that Lincoln passed Cadillac.
However it is not too late. LS production stops in April. But Lincoln can revitalise those show designs and unveil modified versions in Geneva---a crash round the clock program to make the show in three weeks. Edsel Ford created Continental on a will o'th wisp, Bill Ford can do the same for Lincoln today---and keep his Type S.
That's what it boils down to... Bring Back Mr. Reichman from Astons, Mr. Ford. Put him in charge of Lincoln and Continental, promote the man---and put Dr. Bez in charge of the engineering. If not that, use the V/H architecture from Astons/Jaguar and redesign them for Lincoln to spread the costs. Lincoln is supposed to be THE premium American brand...make it so again Mr. Ford.
Can't argue about the styling. They obviously feel they can sell more of this design than the Continental concept. Time will tell.
However.....
All based from the same platform as T-Bird and Mustang. A hot-rod motor would have suited many a buyer. Such a move would have been very profitable for Ford Motor and kept Wixom open.
The T-Bird and Lincoln LS are not on the same platform as the mustang. Only the floor pan and fuel tanks are similar. One of the reasons for killing the DEW98 platform is that the corporate 4.6L V8 won't fit on the assembly line, forcing use of the more expensive and limited production 3.9L AJ derived V8. The other is that the platform is simply too expensive compared to other available platforms. So while it would have been great for enthusiasts it would not have been profitable. Once the decision was made not to sell the LS outside the U.S. DEW98 was doomed.
The problem is the mustang platform can't be stretched for a sedan and there are no other suitable RWD platforms right now. I believe that the next generation mustang platform will accomodate both coupes, convertibles and sedans.
The problem is the mustang platform can't be stretched for a sedan and there are no other suitable RWD platforms right now.
Now, I find that hard to believe. First, a couple inches could be added to Mustang wheelbase without destroying the possibility of driving the vehicle. No, it doesn't have an independent rear suspension right now. The NEED is now.
Secondly, there is a platform Ford has used for centuries, and they still feel is current enough for 2007 models of Crown Vic, Grand Marky and Town Kar. Cut the front and rear overhangs, give it more trendy styling and who cares if it is not state of the art? It is RWD and NEW PRODUCT. If Ford had taken the 427 concept and put it on the Crown Vic chassis, it would be selling now like the Mustang does.
Look how Chevy is cleaning up with the feeble, backward Impala (i.e., use an old platform with more hp, less crappy styling, promote it, and it sells). The Impala's styling is about as boring as the Five Hundred's is, but it is outselling the 500 by more than double!
Plus Ford has RWD Australian platforms, like GM. If GM can be flexible enough to use theirs for the Grand Prix (albeit with boring styling) couldn't Ford do the same with a more mainstream 4 door?
Their platform excuses don't add up. It seems to be more a lack of imagination and too much reliance on focus groups. Where has that gotten them? Even the Focus is starting to sink.
That's what the engineers are saying - it can't be stretched enough to accomodate a sedan.
The full size BOF panther platform is too old and too heavy for a new sedan. The only reason it's still around is it's a cash cow and fills a niche in the product lineup.
The S type, no doubt, based from a Volvo platform allows the new direction at Lincoln and future product development.
There was nothing to stop Lincoln from building the Mark X---even despite its use of the 3.9 Litre V8, 280Bhp@6,000 Rpm engine. If anything Ford Motor would have garnered additional profit from an existing platform---buying time to develop a new one. Maybach is based on the old MB-S platform, so Ford could have done the same thing, except Mark X would have sold whereas Maybach has not.
There was nothing to stop Lincoln from buidling the Continental 2002 concept car. They could have adapted the design to the existing Volvo platform if need be...if they were looking for a modifiable platform. Certainly it might be true they couldn't stretch the Mustang platform into a four-door. But using the Mustang platform for the Mark X, with the attendent high-performance V8's under the hood is possible.
Obviously the management at Ford Motor won't spend above $XYZ dollars for any platform---even if it is earmarked for a higher priceline marque---meaning there is a built in baseline which no division is allowed to reach above, regardless of the ultimate selling price of the car. This logic accounts for what AK says about the limits of the Panther platform. The denouement is that Lincoln is being dismantled for lack of proper product---whether or not the larger V8 fits in the smaller engine bay of DEW98---I can't imagine the engineers have forgotten how to 'hot-rod' a motor. S alone will not save Lincoln, nor a "people mover" derivative built at Oakville.
Failure to build Mark X, and the cars like it, is the reason why Marek Reichmann left Detroit for Astons at the behest of Dr. Bez---creating the beautiful Aston Martin Four-door---in six months flat. If they don't build that, Reichmann will soon be working for Carlos Ghosn, or Mr. Lutz at Cadillac. Between J. Mays, Freeman Thomas, Reichmann, and Peter Horbury, Ford Motor has the designers capable of creating fabulous Lincolns and Continentals---plus a new type of Lincoln for the other side of the market---Mr. Ford needs to take the constraints off, and lock the bean-counters in the other room.
AK may well be right...but it demonstrates the constraints being put on both the engineers and the designers with respect to Lincoln, and the marketing clinics their designs are being subjected to. We have the S, now the for-named "Z". Once Imperial hits the roads, the Z will stand not for Zephyr, or Zorro, it will stand for Zetsche. That will be the only Mark left standing, where will Lincoln be?
"Alas poor Lincoln, to die or not to die, but for a floor-pan and fuel tank be...whether 'tis nobler to fight or die alone, you've been left a clinkin'"
Your wish list makes sense for a car company that's making decent profits. But when you're losing market share and not making a profit you make different business decisions.
Platform sharing isn't the problem - every mass market mfr has to do that today. The problem is the lack of a suitable RWD platform to use across the company. DEW98 works for Jag because they're in a much higher price range. They need a cheaper RWD platform similar to the mustang platform. In fact, despite earlier reports that said it wasn't possible to stretch the mustang platform for a sedan I heard that crash tests are secretly taking place on exactly such a platform.
Under the cirumstances the D3 platform w/AWD seemed to be the next best choice.
With all due respect, Allen, and I hope you know I do respect your opinion, the excuses Ford is using are just lame. Lincoln is **supposed** to be premium brand. Yet they're giving us warmed-over Mazdas (2 of em) for gawd's sake. Now the S is a warmed-over Volvo which is an improvement no doubt I'll give em that. I'll even take the S as a mid-line vehicle, but it ain't no flagship. At the risk of repeating myself, Lincoln HAS one of the best RWD platforms in the industry in the DEW98. No one can convince me that this platform could not be used economically even if it had to be stretched a little, to build a REAL RWD flagship sedan based on, for example, the Continental Concept of 2002. A car like this could COMMAND a premium price. A car with serious cachet, along with handling and power. Ford will always be an also-ran, well actually they may not always be anything, if they keep giving us the cr%%$*p they're pushing off now as Lincolns. Ford had the money to build the GT and for what? 2 years of production of a few hundred cars - what kind of resources and $$$ did that cost that could have been spent on a vehicle that could bring long-term customers in instead of a few millionaires? Ford has half-done everything for the last 5 to 10 years IMHO. Look at the Mercury Marauder - that could have been a car worth having. But when the final vehicle hit the streets, a stock Honda Accord was faster 0-60. I already detailed the failings of Lincoln in another post. How about the 500/Montego? Talk about BLAND. And UNDERPOWERED. I've STILL not seen a Fusion or Milan on the road. One Zephyr. And then there's the non-competitive Freestar and Monterey minivans. Geez, to save a buck the bean counters even had Ford stop painting the seat mechanisms on Navigators a couple of years ago. Then they had to RECALL all of em because they were rusting. IDIOTIC attempts to save 20cents per vehicle are costing them millions. And now they've redesigned the Navigator to appeal to Magic Johnson I guess (he's the guy who introduced it). Well, they've been paying him millions of dollars, I guess it was time to have him EARN it, huh? Maybe their target demographic for the Nav are rappers and pimps, I don't know. But it sure does not appeal to me anymore.
No problems, George. I agree that Ford has made some blunders the last few years, but I don't think the GT and Fusion/Milan/Zephyr are in that category. I think they're headed in the right direction with the MKZ and MKX for sure. The problem is they need so many new products that they can't all be done at once. So the mid-size and full-size new sedans have to wait. That's just business and the way budgets work, especially for an operation that's losing money.
I think too many of us are focused on what we personally want from Lincoln instead of what makes good business sense.
"I think too many of us are focused on what we personally want from Lincoln instead of what makes good business sense. "
Well, it's not about that for me. I can't even afford a stripper Z at this point. For me it's a desire to have an American car that can be pointed to and say "that's a quality luxury performance vehicle designed and made in America." I guess it's patriotic xenophobia on my part. I am starting to feel like Don Qixote though - jousting at windmills. It might be getting time to give up on this quest and accept that American engineering and ingenuity is dead.
That's exactly what I was saying, George. What you (and a lot of us) would like to see (or own) from Lincoln and what Lincoln needs to do to be financially solvent right now may be 2 different things.
My hope is that once they're profitable they'll be able to do what you suggest (create world class RWD sedans in the U.S.). But right now they just can't afford it.
By keeping Jaguar way above Lincoln Ford admits that Americans are not capable of designing and building luxury products. There is no secret that most luxury and refined items come from Europe or Japan. And Cadillac still needs to beat Infinity before claiming itself as a “standard of the world”.
Ford Motor has $25Bn in cash-on-hand, plus $35Bn in credit available to them. It is inconceivable that "they can't afford it." Given what will not happen at Lincoln in the next 24 months, there will be no Lincoln left in terms of car sales to preserve the brand. There was a time when Lincoln sold 35,000 cars a year and that was satisfactory. But that was 40 years ago. Mr. Ford can spend 15% Ford Motor resources to save the brand, build a new more efficient factory, make money off the real-estate from Wixom, etc. to bring Lincoln back to the fore.
The more plausible point of view is loss of nerve or understanding at the Glass House. Mr. Fields and Ms. Stevens probably have never driven, much less sat in the great Lincolns and Continentals that made the brand what it is. They are far removed from the ethos that the public understands with respect to Lincoln. The "Way Forward" Plan reflects this failure.
35% of Ford Motors sales last year in the U.S. were cars. A sorry state of affairs. If Mr. Ford relegates Lincoln to a brand designation on Ford platforms, and puts his L-M dealers in a bind with no new Mercury products, the death of both brands will be on his watch. Simply put: Jaguar consumed the cash that Lincoln needed. But that situation can be reversed: simply use the Jaguar platform for a new Continental and Lincoln, amortising the costs of both.
Ford Motor is far from dead, or on the edge of bankruptcy...unless of course it is propped up only by Ford Motor Credit. Yet Ford makes money outside America, and their own stock reports declare that fact. Ergo, there is no excuse not to save Lincoln now. Yes, there is abject Panic at the Glass House---the Zephyr name change proves that. Change must come, but not two years from now. The difference is in the initiative. Mr. Ford, not Mr. Fields, has to be the person to announce the new direction Lincoln is taking. That he will not preside over the dismantling of a great brand and tradition. Lincoln has not been at the forefront of the market in a long time. So the opportunity knocks. The loyal public will wait if the initiative is cast.
Ford has all the resources in the world to make the best cars, it already makes the best trucks. Those at the Glass House have to realise that there is a great majority of disappointed prospective customers that have waited too long---and yet they can garner the best of their design and engineering talent to make the best Lincolns---the finest American cars---again. Cadillac, Lincoln, and even Imperial ceded far too much to the competition and gave up trying. But now Ford must do it. For their investment in Jaguar and Aston will be rendered moot if Lincoln and Mercury devolve to ashes. Henry Leland founded both Cadillac and Lincoln on that principle: building the best. And for decades Mr. Leland did, why Edsel bought Lincoln (not to mention the firesale price!) and he improved upon Mr. Leland's work. TODAY, William C. Ford Jr. has the chance to pick up that challice again.
Lincoln is NOT "luxury for the blue-jeans set"---as Ann Steven commented. Never has been, never should be. But those at the Glass House have to have faith in their team, and even more important: faith in the American buyer.
Lincoln inspires the loyalty of those who know it best....and S is not yet the best.
I disagree. I am in my twneties and I absolutely adhore the look of the Continental concept. I liek the MKS much better and I think the broader buying demograhic would agree.
Sure it may remind you of a TL (One of the best selling luxury cars in America) or a Lexus (the best selling luxury brand in America) but perhaps that is not too too bad of a thing. It reminds me of those two but with a ton more styling. Lincoln needs a new direction. Everyone may have loved the LS, but guess what, it sucked sales wise after the first year. I think that they made a serious mistake with the New navigator and will have to wait for the next redesign to do something good for that SUV. However, I think the MKZ, MKX, and MKS are good for the brand. If they had come out with the Continental concept only the early Lincoln fanatics would have bought it. That's not a good thing.
I agree with douglas on one thing. I think Lincoln needs its own platform and to be able to build all its cars from that platform. I had said that mid last year. That would be very good for the brand. I hope that with Jaguar moving far up market, Lincoln will get some much needed investment. Jag needs to move far far up market into the Bentley category. I said that in 2004. We'll see, Ford just needs to hire me. I have some good ideas years before their time. I won't share the rest till I see a check.
savetheland, come on now. Jaguar's name cache could easily compete with Bentley if they wanted to and that is where they need to be. No matter what you may believe, Cadi can't compete in that market. Jaguar went for more volume and watereed down their product mix. THey are now getting back to what they need to be. I say have the entry level be an S-Type at 50K and go from there. At that 50K you should get an aluminum chassis and the most potent engine in that price range and the most luxurious interior. It shouldn't even be high volume, I'm thinking something like a CLS type thing. And then let Jag range from there all the way up to $200K. Linoln can then come in between 28K - 60K in pricing. That is where Cadi is now and where Lincoln needs to be. Cadi or Lincoln have never been at the Jag level. If Jag wants to bring out a 500 unit niche F-Type with a V10 at 250, it can. Just imagine, they shouldn't just throw away that Ford GT chassis. It is already paid for. Why not let Jag have a nice 600hp car that is designed by Jag to go against the Bentley GT? The Jag coupe interior is close. I can't post pictures of the two so soemone help me out. With that interior at $80K, imagine what would happen if they put another $5K - $10K in there at $200K.
Look, Lincoln does not need its own platforms. Practically no one creates distinct platforms any more. The Zephyr/MKZ is selling well above expectations, and with the addition of AWD and the 3.5 could see annual sales of 50k. Its already selling at over 30k pace, when original expectation was 20k. Lexus sells 70k rebadged Camrys as ES350s. The sell a boat load of RX350s as well. Those 2 vehicles make up the meat of the Lexus lineup and make owning a dealership worth while.
Ford is doing the right thing with Lincoln. They have a good vehicle in the meat of the market, entry lux, that is competitive in most every way. The MKX will add serious sales to the brand as well.
Think of the MKZ and the MKX being the ES350 and the RX350 of the Lincoln line, bread and butter and the brand attractions. One in the family, then Lincoln can move their customers up. That gives lincoln time and money to develop new vehicles and keep the lineup fresh without having to blow all their investment cash on a new single use platform.
The MKS will be another hit for Lincoln. It is attractive, fresh, and shows a real understanding by Ford of what the lux market wants, namely technology. These vehicles should be rolling showcases. The Acura RL is a $50k AWD sub 290hp V6 car that is lauded basically for its competence and technology. Ford can easily undercut the RL with a bigger safer car with equal or better performance from the beautiful 4.4L V8 for $10k less.
Lincoln will move tons of those cars. Mark my words, as long as Ford stays the course, within 3 years Lincoln will be back in its heyday. Then, maybe hey can add kewl halo cars like the Mark 9 built off a Stang chassis WITH an IRS.
By the end of the 2008 CY, Lincoln will be on a serious roll.
Look, Lincoln does not need its own platforms. Practically no one creates distinct platforms any more.
Cadilac, Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, Infiniti, Audi.
I will say this. For the MKZ and the MKX it is fine, anything above that and you'll run into trouble. You really think the the Lexus IS could be put next to a BMW 3 Series if it had a Camry or Corolla platform. It'd be laughed out of existence. When you are playing against the big boys, you need to come big. No guts, no glory. Lexus shares chasis at the entry level cars and on its SUVs because every body else does. Merc and Chrys, GM and Cadi, VW and Audi, but not in their mid size luxury cars.
How about this as a compromise, how about they just keep the DEW platform and make all their cars off of that. They could stretch it as they like and play with it with all the R&D it's going to take to take a Volvo or Ford chassis and make it work right. Then you can have your Mustang liek luxury coupe that can go up against a GTO, you could have an MKS, and you could have a Town Car. You could even shorten it, as they did with the Mustang, and have a replacement for the Zephyr in several years. Don't let anyone say that the chassis will be too old, because you can always rework a chassis, remember the Fox platform or look at the new Camry, I think that is the same platform that they were using WAT back in the 80s, and it also was and is used in the Highlander, the RX350, the Lexes ES, and I am sure I am missing one or two. The Accord platform, we don't even need to talk about because it has been stretch and massaged more than Gumby. And wit hthe DEW, Lincoln would be RWD.
Mooseman1, I completely agree. Ford is rapidly working towards being in a far better position than many people think. They will soon be reaping the rewards of developing two excellent platforms and building many different vehicles from them.
Although many of the products are a year or more away, Ford has the full-sized Five Hundred, Freestyle, Montego, Lincoln MKS, Volvo S80, and Volvo XC90 on variations of one platform, and the middle-sized Mazda 6 (Sedan, wagon and hatchback), the middle to large sized Fusion, Milan, and Zephyr, and the Edge and MKX CUVs on variations of another platform.
A significant plus for Ford is the availability of AWD on both platforms. I think that once most of us drive an AWD vehicle with systems as good as those Ford uses, we will realize that we don't need RWD, and may actually prefer AWD.
Think about what all of us will be saying one year from now, when the new and updated vehicles are on sale, or almost on sale. Ford and Lincoln-Mercury dealerships will once again be fun and exciting places.
I was tempted to jump the gun and order a 2007 S-80, but my work day yesterday reminded me that if I buy a sedan, I need the large trunk of the MKS / Five Hundred / Montego, so I will have to be patient.
Guys, it is nice you are all so positive and hopeful about Ford. I do hope you are right.
Ford has screwed up with sedans, and the Fusion triplets alone can't rectify that. Anyone can see the 500/Montego does not sell anywhere near what they should. It is pathetic that Chevy can take an old platform like the Impala and literally trounce the 500. Ford plans to fix the dull front end in the spring of 2007. But the 500 will keep its dumpy profile and awkward rear end. I know they cannot undo the dumb styling anytime soon, but get some more hp choices into it, and advertise more like the Impala does. Ford could use the income of higher sales to get back on track.
The MKS is competitive now--and I understand that some of you love its indistinctive styling--but it won't come to market for over two more years. Lexus has updated versions right now of the IS, ES, and GS. The new LS will be out long before the new Lincoln. Of course, Lincoln has nothing planned to go against the LS, so that is moot.
BTW, the EX350 is now built off the Avalon platform, not the Camry's. The RX350 may share architecture with its Toyota stablemate, but it does not share body panels, windows, etc.
The Edge and MKX are just too darned much alike. Cadillac uses all its own bodies now. The DTS may share architecture with the Lucerne, but they do not share doors and windows and cowls and so on. The other Caddys share even less with models which share their architecture. Cadillac is doing better than they have in years, because their cars are now perceived as belonging in the luxury segment.
Jaguar has a lot of cachet, but not much else. The new Type S won't be here until 2008. The XJ sedan, good as it is, has turned out to be a sales dud, like the current S. Ford has now invested more than 10 billion into a make that has not returned them a dime. To move it even more upmarket might be a nice dream, but it would not increase sales, which they desperately need. The new S should help and the XJ will get a much needed makeover in 2009--if Jaguar holds on that long.
Meanwhile, Lincoln is becoming the new Mercury. With nothing new in the pipeline for Mercury (the Meta One has now been killed and the Freestyle will continue with Ford with a new 3 bar grill) looks like toast. Lincoln no longer gets unique bodies (except for holdovers like the Town Car...though based on the Crown Vic, does not share so much as a piece of glass with the Vicky), but instead must make do with eyeliner and frosting on Fords.
I do hope the MKS can keep its own unique body, and not end up as a Ford or Mercury too, a la Fusion/Milan/MKZ. It's a start. But for Lincoln to be riding high as soon as 2008, a lot of other luxury makes will have to start sitting on their haunches and waiting for them to catch up. Not likely.
If Lincoln is the new Mercury, at least it will still be around. Going up against Buick and Chrysler may not be what we wanted to see for this venerable old make, but I'd rather see that than nothing.
To move it even more upmarket might be a nice dream, but it would not increase sales, which they desperately need. The new S should help and the XJ will get a much needed makeover in 2009--if Jaguar holds on that long.
Porche is the most profitable car company on earth. They don't need to increase sales as much as they need to make a very good profit. Look a Bentley, look at Porche, look at Land Rover. Not a lot of volume but as long as they remain profitable and add something to the bottom line instead of taking it away, they are worth having. I say defnitely push Jag up against Bentley. VW doesn't mind that Bentley isn't high volume, they are adding sustainable products and running at full capacity.
All you are spewing is doom and gloom. The Zephyr is selling well above predictions. When this car was coming to market I was one of the few who predicted it would be success while all the "experts" like you predicted that sitting next to a Milan for $10k less it would languish.
The Zephyr is outselling the Milan. Lincoln has a good name. It leads in cusomer satisfaction and is one of the tops in quality. Lexus came from nowhere on that same philosphy, selling quality products that are a good value and keeping your customers happy. Hard to fault Lincoln for following that paradigm. RWD is NOT a cure all for sale success. Even Lexus is only predicting 40k a year in sales for the IS. The Zephyr is already nearly selling at that rate. So, what would the ROI be for a distinct platform? The RWD sport sedan market is a VERY small market. 110k RX330/400hs were sold last year. How many IS300s? 10k. How many G35 sedanss are sold? Not even 40k. Even BMW 3 series? 100k? And they lead the segement.
Speaking of BMW, BMW pissed me off, I won't be back. Pissed my bro-in-law off, too. Both crappy cars with snotty dealer service. Neither of us will buy another. We're both looking domestic this time.
And, I'll make another prediction. Lincoln will increase it's sales rate 60% by the close of CY '08. Thats right, Lincoln wil sell 17k cars a month by Dec '08, led by the MKZ, MKX, and MKS. The Nav, LT, TC, Fairlane based "people mover" will fill in the rest.
All you are spewing is doom and gloom. The Zephyr is selling well above predictions. When this car was coming to market I was one of the few who predicted it would be success while all the "experts" like you predicted that sitting next to a Milan for $10k less it would languish
Hold it buddy. You are talking to the wrong person. You are looking for douglas. I was a person that said I would be looking at a Zephyr to replace my 6 when the Zephyr was not out yet. I still said I would up to the point when I found out it would not get manu-shift. I have defended the MKS as well until I found out it wasn't coming out till Feb 2008. I am sorry but I am a realist, I call a spade a spade. Feb 2008 is too far for the MKS to be here. It was originally supposed to get here this year. This year the 315hp and all the features and design is compeitive, in 2008 it will no longer be if we go by current market actions. I think if that they are making a mistake by introducing the car so far out. I also think instead of grabbing platforms from other Ford manufacturers, they should have their own platform that will give them more atonomy and more distinction. I say give them their own problem and let them run loose. I think the MKS is good, but I think that a shared platform for the brand would be better because then they could compete. You may like Lincoln but that alone won't save them. Especially when they are coming out with a car competitive for today, 2 years from now.
Actually the MKS was due in the Fall of 2007. It was delayed 6 months because Ford changed its plans in the face of plant closures.
And, to reiterate, the Zephyr and MKX will add up to far more sales than the Aviator/LS combo. They are actually relevant competive vehicles.
The MKS can be delayed becasue it will add fewer sales to the bottom line than the MKX/MKZ as it plays in a pricier market. Lincoln's biggest seller will be the MKX, guaranteed. Its a far more important vehicle than the MKS.
Lincoln made a half hearted attempt with the LS and then they let it languish. The updates to the MKZ show that Ford is far more serious now with Lincoln. It has nothing to do with whether I like Lincoln or not, but simple market realities. You are calling for a huge investment to move into a small market. Instead Ford made a smart investment to move into a broad market and will reap big rewards.
Lexus wasn't built overnight. Neither was Audi. Neither was Acura, or Infiniti. Amazingly 3 out of those 4 made their name with FWD/AWD vehicles. It seems a reasonable assumption that the only market that seems concerned with RWD platforms is the bench racing market. And bench racing sells few cars.
Add up the entire RWD sport sedan market and you will find fewer sales than the amount of Camrys and Accords sold in a year.
Build a solid foundation with a solid customer base, then add fringe halo cars like niche market sport sedans and coupes.
And, 315hp 4,4L V8 is the current engine tune. You assume Ford will make no modifications to the motor in the interceding years if market realities force it to do so. The 3.5L Cyclone is capable of DI and turbocharging, and many rumors have it producing nearly 400hp in DI Turbo form. I think it would be safe to say that Lincoln has that option, as does it have hte option of using the 350hp I6 turbo Volvo motor. Both should be available by MKS launch.
Again, I think you are being a bit pessimistic, though given the debacle Ford has made of its lineup through the early 00's, it is understandable.
I am cheered by the fact that someone does indeed like the S, and champions its cause, defending Ford Motor's position with respect to this car, as MM1 has done. That there is a bloc of people who like the car is good for Lincoln's future. Twin Charging the engine in the S may make for a superb motor...there is hope. Starting with 315Bhp when competitors offer more is not smart.
Lincoln simply can't survive in the long run without a unique facility to the marque---or at least one platform with which it can compete with the best of them. Without such, the next down-turn after this one will kill the brand, nearly a century a tradition goes out the window. Yes the Zephyr is a success in part because it is $10,000 cheaper than the LS---and packaged far more efficiently, but what of the higher end of the market? Ford has both the resources and the designers and engineers to make far better Lincolns, Continentals, and S Types than they are offering, or have ever offered. Ford seems not to want to try. By closing Wixom, killing off its RWD platform (which for Lincoln must remain, otherwise suffer the fate of Cadillac in the Roger Smith Era at GM... & look at 300 sales to understand why), and making NO announcements with respect to future plans...simply tells the loyal buying public that Ford Motor does not care. Sure, they have to do the S, since Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, et. al., ocuppy so much of the market. But that market was created in the first place because of the complacency of Ford, GM, and Chrysler to begin with. In 1956 when Ford went public and the Mark II was new, imports claimed 1.6% of the U.S. market and half of them were VW's!!, Toyota was two years away from introducing cars at L.A. in 1958. I see the same thing happening today with Lincoln. Building Lincolns in Chicago, Oakville, and Hermisilio will not suffice, not matter how good they might come to be.
The S should have been introduced for production now. I saw more than one prospective buyer at the D.C. Auto Show walk away because the L-M rep told them the car was a "teaser". After the Sentinenal, the Mark IX, the Continental 2002 Show Car, the Mark X show car...Lincoln has built nothing. Now they will take another 24 months to roll out S. Better than NOT doing so, I suppose. If it arrives in AWD, even despite its Volvo underpinnings, it has to be a hot-blooded American V8---315BHp will not suffice. I am very glad someone likes the car...I hope that remains true when its sees the tarmac two years from now.
I can't help but believe that those in charge of the fate of Lincoln simply are disconnected from its past, and what can make the brand great again. But I am equally cheered by the fact that the younger generation sees something in the Zephyr and the S which I find rather mundane---so the bells aren't tolling just yet for Lincoln.
Actually the MKS was due in the Fall of 2007. It was delayed 6 months because Ford changed its plans in the face of plant closures.
No, actually, the Lincoln MKS was supposed to go into production later this year at the Atlanta plant. Ford has made this information public in a press release. Someone please post the link because I am too tired to get it right now.
Lexus wasn't built overnight. Neither was Audi. Neither was Acura, or Infiniti. Amazingly 3 out of those 4 made their name with FWD/AWD vehicles. It seems a reasonable assumption that the only market that seems concerned with RWD platforms is the bench racing market. And bench racing sells few cars.
Look at the competitors with RWD. Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, Infiniti. Then there is Acura who has shifted to SH-AWD for its premium sedans. Why didn't they just go with cheaper, FWD platforms if RWD only appeals to bench racing? Perhaps they know something that we do not. I am sure that Lexus has a bundle of market researcj analysts at their disposal. Then there is the juggernaut 300C and GM is introducing a RWD Impala (or rumored four door Monte), Buick, and Pontiac sedan in the next coming years. When you see the crowd rushing, don't wait till you see the bull stampede behind them to run.
And, 315hp 4,4L V8 is the current engine tune. You assume Ford will make no modifications to the motor in the interceding years if market realities force it to do so.
That is what they said it would have so that is what I am going on. I would think that would be the most logical place to start.
I am not trying to be pessimistic. Like you I think the MKZ and MKX are great vehicles to the line up. I think the MKX will do well if priced well. I will concede with what others have said that the next time around they should differentiate the MKX from the Edge a little more and have them not share body panels as Lexus does with the Highlander and RX. Going forward, Lincoln should look into a single RWD platform that can be used for all its cars because it saves costs and gives the brand more distinction. I would like Lincoln to be seen as far from being a Ford for most of its line up just as you would NOT compare Lexus and Toyota for the far majority of Lexus' car lineup.
The Zephyr is outselling the Milan Yes, like I said, Lincoln is the new Mercury.
I don't care if Lincoln goes FWD/AWD or RWD. Get the products out. Of course Zephyr and MKX are going to do better than LS and Aviator. But Lincoln's volume seller (now less than 50,000 units per year) is still the old Town Car...that's kinda scary.
And now the Navigator comes out with not much more than a controversial grill, slathered on chrome, and 6 speed when Escalade is all new with better mileage, 403 hp, a tasteful interior, and a more integrated-looking extended version than the Navigator L (MKNL??). GM do this when they are losing even more money than Ford.
I hope that (like some of you imply) that I am blowing an ill and unnecessary wind out of my nether regions. But I hate to see Cadillac win the big SUV segment too. Lincoln was there first and at first did the luxury SUV better than GM. Ford itself has issued mea culpas about their missteps. What they need is a lesson from another loser: GM. Move product intros up, not back. The big GM 2007 SUVs are out now and doing way better than expected.
1) No, the MKS was not supposed to go into production at the Atlanta plant this year. It was due in the fall of 2007 at the Atlanta plant, which is now being shuttered, hence the delay. I know that some writers get their CYs and MYs confused, but the decision to go forward with the cars o nthe platform wasn't even made til last year.
2) Please use number in your arguments rather than assumptions. Who leads the class in RWD entry lux and how many do they sell? How does that compare with what Lincoln will be selling with the Zephyr? If the Zephyr manages 40k a year it will outsell the RWD G35 sedan. How about the A3? A4? The A6? The TT? The A8? Do people shun them for being FWD based? The S40? S60? S80? XC90? The TSX? The TL? The RL (FWD based chassis)? The ES330? The RX330?
3) They also said the Zephyr would have 210hp. I guess it having 221 at launch is illogical? Wanna take bets on whether the 3.5L premieres with more than 250hp? Ford will have the motors competitive as it is important for them to do so.
4) Again, 60% of Lexus sales are rebadged Toyotas. Lexus is the largest luxury plate in NA. Are you saying Ford should follow a different paradigm becasue Lexus isn't successful enough? Again, I'm confused. Sharing a platform with an equally upscale S80 and XC90 in the MKS doesn't sound exactly downmarket.
You seem to be stuck in a rut. And the numbers and facts do not support your conclusions. I'm not being mean, just honest.
And, BTW, the Zephyr outsold the TownCar last month. Until the MKX gets here, the Zeph is the new volume leader.
Volvo has been a sales success with FWD. Audi has become a standard bearer with FWD. Acura has not one single RWD based vehicle in their lineup. RWD is NOT a panacea. People said the same things about the Stang having a live axle in the rear and being old tech. It still outsells ALL its competitors.
There is more to the auto market than what the bench racers like to argue about over a pint.
I agree with your assessment of the Nav. It isn't exactly a home run, more like a bunt, but then I always disliked the previous one as well. And if Honda can sell 50k Cringelines a year, there is still hope for the MKL/Nav/braceface.
1) No, the MKS was not supposed to go into production at the Atlanta plant this year. It was due in the fall of 2007 at the Atlanta plant, which is now being shuttered, hence the delay. I know that some writers get their CYs and MYs confused, but the decision to go forward with the cars o nthe platform wasn't even made til last year.
No joke?(sarcasm) I said that in the post right after e one you replied to.
2. If the Zephyr manages 40k a year it will outsell the RWD G35 sedan.
Okay let's talk numbers because you are using more twists than a politician. Yes the G35 sells in less numbers than a MKZ if you annualize the sales. HOWEVER THE G35 SELLS AT A HIGHER TRANSACTION PRICE. As does the 3 Series, as does the Lexus IS, as does the Cadi CTS. Less volume ,more exclusivity, and more money. Focus on the dollars not the volume.
Don't put Audi as a benchmark, they haven't been able to crack into the market at the rate they would like too, AND THEY WILL ADMIT IT.
Again, 60% of Lexus sales are rebadged Toyotas. Lexus is the largest luxury plate in NA.
Yes but two things. We are only talking about cars, so slash the SUV sales that make up the chunk of that 60% out of your argument. And secondly, Lexus is the largest and is still trying to compete with BMW and Mercedes on the German's level, and LEXUS WILL ADMIT IT. Also, BMW is the most profitable luxury nameplate in the US.
They also said the Zephyr would have 210hp. I guess it having 221 at launch is illogical? Ahhh good political spin there. The increased horsepower was due to the new SAE measurement. NOT because Ford upped the power. Good try, try again next time. If they say it will have 315, is not the most logical thing to think, since they make the car NOT you, that the car will have 315hp?
I will back up Driverdm here. I am in my mid 30s, and I would never think about buying a Lincoln. But the sight on the MkS got be drooling. Yes it looks similar to an Acura TL - a great looking car in my opinion.
The MkS did two things to me. I put it as wallpaper on my computer (big deal you think, but I never bother with wallpaper usually and since it have been on my computer at work, numerous people have made the comment about what a great looking Lincoln this is). The other thing it made me so, was wander down to my local lincoln dealer and I took a look at the Zephyr (err MkZ) during a lunch break. Not a bad car either - much better looking in the metal than in photos.
I read here about how the Continental concept is soo much better that the MkS. I'm sorry, but I looked at the photos and I hated it. Looked too much like a fad car, and I felt the look would get stale very quickly. Also, it would probably make a good "gangster" car, and I'm sorry but I do not want one of them. This car would probably have been a hit for six months or so, and then I think its sales would slide into the abyss.
1)It was due in the fall of 2007 at the Atlanta plant, which is now being shuttered, hence the delay.
No joke?(sarcasm) I said that in the post right after e one you replied to.
No, you didn't. You said it was fall of 2006 and we're saying it was never earlier than fall of 2007. You said Ford's own press release said fall of 2006 - where is it?
You're correct, I meant to write Fall of 2007 in the second post. Notice if you read it how it is written, I would be apologizing and then saying the same thing over again. As I said in the post, it was late.
Let's cut out the hostility & demanding tones. Anyone is free to look up Ford's press release.
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I am quite serene, now. Some confusion is understandable, though. Hazen used the statement "very near future." Post #29 (with no link) indicated "early 2007." Car and Driver mentioned production about a year from now. (no idea if that was a guess or if they had inside info.)
Typically, if production begins after January 1, the model is referred to as the next years model, correct? So, if production begins in 2/08, we would likey call it a 2009 model based on past practice. I saw the quotes from suppliers about the February 2008 date, but has Ford had a press release that indicated a timeframe?
Comments
This describes the Acura TL. And in 2 years the TL will be redesigned as well as a bunch of other cars, like the Accord. Even the Azera will probably have been tweaked. Is Lincoln gonna make the debut at Ford's theater?
Even though i try to be thrifty, if the Mark S is out well before the revised Five Hundred and Montego, I will almost surely buy one. The new Volvo S80 version of this car also looks exceptionally nice, except that it will have a small trunk, the the Mark S will apparently share the large trunk of the Five Hundred, a very smart decision by Ford.
Well you certainly make a good case for yourself in your post. (snicker)
What about B?
Would you buy a Cord?
Would you care to explain your reasoning?
Yes, "Zephyr" will become an orphan after one year, and the denizens of The Glass House have seen fit to change Zephyr to Z, like the Mark S. Can there be any doubt as to the level of panic within the ranks? Sales of Zephyr dropped in January, so they're rushing to "fix" what does not need fixing.
No doubt some marketing clinic told them that people recognised the car as a Lincoln if they called it a Mark---who doesn't know the story of the Continental---of course they associate Mark with the Lincoln name. Calling all manor of products, Mark XYZ, whether four doors, pick-up trucks, and the like a Mark merely seeks to captialise upon the tradition of the brand---without the product. It is an anathma to me, and my many friends who have driven Lincolns for decades, why Ford Motor seems fit to disassemble what they have built up.
A Mark is a two door Continental, apart from the horrid Mark VI sedan (which sold in low numbers), that is what it remains. Today there's not a "Mark" in sight. Mr. Ford sits at Edsel Ford's desk---the man who created Continental in March 1939 on the V12 Zephyr chassis to replace the V12 K series which bowed out after 1940/1---and seems to have forgotten that fact. Zephyr was and is the perfect name for that car. Both embodied something new in the marketplace, both designed to garner customers at the entry level of the market. The Zephyr of the 1930's embodied the bold aerodynamic styling of Bob Gregorie--succeeding where Chrysler failed, and today's Ford Clone in the Zephyr using all CAD/CAM computer generated Rapid Prototyping engineering. Perfect market and historical sense to name the new Lincoln Zephyr. Sure, upgrade the engine, freshen the grille for '07, but don't change the name.
Neither of which addresses the failure of the 'Way-Forward' team to give Lincoln what it really needs. I forgot that only 50 people, amongst all the capable people at the Blue Oval, if-that-many, came up with this current plan to abrogate the traditions of the company and Lincoln built up over decades. The LaNeve marketing approach to Lincoln will not work to fix all of the problems---the man who radically altered Cadillac's path. S or not, Lincoln needs more:
First---Plan a true Mark, the Mark IX. Use the V/H architecture of Astons applied to Lincoln. From this you can build Continentals, Town Cars, a Mark--coupe and convertible. Mr. Zetsche isn't waiting. (And scrap the mark x name off the Aviator, call it that again!)
Second---A $350m greenfield site, a new factory built as you rebuilt Rouge, staffed with Wixom workers, who have the pride of Lincoln wresting on their shoulders, building an AWD/RWD platform. Invite the public to tour...make it your corporate showcase in America as Gaydon is in Europe. And I would even purchase the stone letters from the first Lincoln factory saved from the original Livernois Avenue plant and incorporate them in building. Bring back the excitement that Alfred Kahn once gave to Ford Motor--- making the building as exciting as the product.
Third---Use your casting plant in Koln, Germany to bring aboard high performance V8-V10-V12 small block engines to the Lincoln line. Outfox Mr. Lutz, you have to beat his chassis guys testing Cadillacs at Nurburgring.
Fourth---Give Dr. Bez a huge pay raise, bring him aboard as a consultant, because you won't pry him away from England, he's made Astons the leader within your company.
Fifth---The Mark S should be just S. If you're using Volvo components and platforms, it should embody a new product at Lincoln, the La Neve approach---apart from the traditional line. Take on Lexus if you chose, but do it with S, and 315.
Sixth---lock Freeman Thomas, J. Mays, and Peter Horbury in a design studio until they come up with a better set of ideas. S is nice for today, not my cup of tea, but it will be dated by the time it rolls out of Chicago.
Seventh---Announce tomorrow your plans. Tell the world that you are continuing the tradition that Mr. Leland started, and your grandfathers, and uncles improved upon.
Price tag: 10%-15% of what you have in the bank. Did your Way-Forward committee come up with that? And I wonder how many of those MBA's built their own car when they were 14-15-16 years old? Do they know? I know you do, MR. Ford, you have the people and the resources...use them to save Lincoln.
Otherwise, other than Carlos Ghosn, Zorro might object to the use of the name Z.
DouglasR
Well, it won't be hard to outsell the Aviator since they don't make em anymore. And while the Z might outsell the LS for this year, it is not nearly on the same sales path as the LS achieved when it was new, is it?
"And don't write off Mercury just yet - let's see what they show at Chicago. "
Well, here's what Mercury has shown at the Chicago show so far:
.
Seriously, though - the MKZ will be orders of magnitude more profitable for Ford even at half the volume of the 2000 LS (50K).
It doesn't look good for Mercury, does it? I know Ford has made money by simply putting make-up on Fords and calling them Mercurys.
However, this is not the only way Mercury has made money in its history. The iconic '49-'51 Mercs shared nothing with the Fords. Throughout the 50s and 60s and even a few models into the 70s, 80s and 90s, they may have been identical underneath, but Mercurys often got unique body panels.
The first Mustangs and Cougars, for example, obviously shared a platform, but the Cougar went more upscale and elegant without losing sportiness. The 1966 Comet coupe was prettier than the Fairlane. The 1970 Mercury Marauder had a unique look from the big Ford whose body it shared. The Capri had a good (albeit short) run when it was not a Mustang clone. The original Sable did look upmarket from the Taurus.
The latest (Contour-based) Cougar shared nothing outwardly with any Ford model and was a great success for a couple years--like most successful coupes these days. Unfortunately, the coupe market is smaller and more fickle now, and as Mitsubishi has found with the Eclipse, demands serious styling changes no less than every three years or so to sustain sales (the iconic Mustang excepted).
Ford wanted to be able to go with longer model cycles and it cost them dearly. Whenever they started to wake up that their products were aging too much (thoughout the 70s, 80s, 90s and now...why do they keep having to re-learn the same lesson??), the only thing (they thought) to do to get new Mercurys out was change some trim and names of Fords. Of course it increases sales...sales were in the toilet.
But if Lincoln is shrinkin', why keep making fake Mercurys to fill in the showrooms that are being visited less and less? It will be interesting to see if there are any rabbits to be had from any hats. MKS can't turn Lincoln car sales around by itself, and they are talking friggin' 2009 for the other 500 based sedan.
The best thing about the MKS is that the body on the common corporate architecture is unique to Lincoln. The MKZ even with the 3.5 continues to be a clone of the Fusion body. Imagine how much less Cadillac would have moved up in the past few years if it was still taking Chevy bodies and grafting on Caddy front and rear ends and interiors like it used to?
I'd hate to see two more venerable names go down. But who woulda thought 20 years ago that Plymouth and Oldsmobile would be dead a few years down the road?
The MKS is shown next to a picture of the 2002 Continental Show car that supposedly inspired it.
Here's Autoweek's take:
"The MKS is nothing like the stunning Continental Show car from 2002 and it is poorer for it. While Cadillac is making design headway, Lincoln is stuck in neutral"
While I was looking at the magazine, my 7 year old son walked by. He said "Wow, that car is cool."
"Which one?", I asked.
He pointed at the Continental Show Car. I asked what he thought of the MKS. "Kind of regular and plain, that's not a future car,is it?"
"Kind of regular and plain" pretty much says it all.
Compare:
That is what I told the show-stand L-M Factory Rep for the Mark S, "it will appeal to Lexus buyers, but that's not a Lincoln..."---it's a whole new approach, the Volvoisation of Lincoln.
The real Mark X convertible they unveiled last year in 2004 was based from the 2002 Continental Design proposal. Marek Reichman, designer of the four-door Aston-Martin Rapide, did the beautiful Mark X convertible. He clearly understood Lincoln and Continental history when he penned this variation of the theme. Wixom could have built 35-45,000 sedans, 25,000 plus coupe and convertible Mark X. All based from the same platform as T-Bird and Mustang. A hot-rod motor would have suited many a buyer. Such a move would have been very profitable for Ford Motor and kept Wixom open. Not to mention amortised their investment in the platform. Both of those cars would have garnered waiting lists without incentives to move the metal. At least a dozen of my fellow Lincoln drivers all said they would buy one, three said they were going to mail in deposits. None of them have said they would buy the Mark S based on the photos.
Mark S represents the La Neve approach to Lincoln. A zippy video commercial with a heavy metal music backround can't be far behind, they're probably shooting it now.
Why Ford Motor has chosen to abandon traditional Lincoln and Continental styling cues for the morphed look astounds me. ST's son has it right. If Lincoln is going after the future generation and buyers, they've may have already lost the game with the S. Atleast Lincoln trying to do something---appealing to another group of buyers, but without new product, they risk alienating all those longtime owners that kept them in the game for decades. It was only yesterday that Lincoln passed Cadillac.
However it is not too late. LS production stops in April. But Lincoln can revitalise those show designs and unveil modified versions in Geneva---a crash round the clock program to make the show in three weeks. Edsel Ford created Continental on a will o'th wisp, Bill Ford can do the same for Lincoln today---and keep his Type S.
That's what it boils down to... Bring Back Mr. Reichman from Astons, Mr. Ford. Put him in charge of Lincoln and Continental, promote the man---and put Dr. Bez in charge of the engineering. If not that, use the V/H architecture from Astons/Jaguar and redesign them for Lincoln to spread the costs. Lincoln is supposed to be THE premium American brand...make it so again Mr. Ford.
DouglasR
However.....
All based from the same platform as T-Bird and Mustang. A hot-rod motor would have suited many a buyer. Such a move would have been very profitable for Ford Motor and kept Wixom open.
The T-Bird and Lincoln LS are not on the same platform as the mustang. Only the floor pan and fuel tanks are similar. One of the reasons for killing the DEW98 platform is that the corporate 4.6L V8 won't fit on the assembly line, forcing use of the more expensive and limited production 3.9L AJ derived V8. The other is that the platform is simply too expensive compared to other available platforms. So while it would have been great for enthusiasts it would not have been profitable. Once the decision was made not to sell the LS outside the U.S. DEW98 was doomed.
The problem is the mustang platform can't be stretched for a sedan and there are no other suitable RWD platforms right now. I believe that the next generation mustang platform will accomodate both coupes, convertibles and sedans.
Now, I find that hard to believe. First, a couple inches could be added to Mustang wheelbase without destroying the possibility of driving the vehicle. No, it doesn't have an independent rear suspension right now. The NEED is now.
Secondly, there is a platform Ford has used for centuries, and they still feel is current enough for 2007 models of Crown Vic, Grand Marky and Town Kar. Cut the front and rear overhangs, give it more trendy styling and who cares if it is not state of the art? It is RWD and NEW PRODUCT. If Ford had taken the 427 concept and put it on the Crown Vic chassis, it would be selling now like the Mustang does.
Look how Chevy is cleaning up with the feeble, backward Impala (i.e., use an old platform with more hp, less crappy styling, promote it, and it sells). The Impala's styling is about as boring as the Five Hundred's is, but it is outselling the 500 by more than double!
Plus Ford has RWD Australian platforms, like GM. If GM can be flexible enough to use theirs for the Grand Prix (albeit with boring styling) couldn't Ford do the same with a more mainstream 4 door?
Their platform excuses don't add up. It seems to be more a lack of imagination and too much reliance on focus groups. Where has that gotten them? Even the Focus is starting to sink.
The full size BOF panther platform is too old and too heavy for a new sedan. The only reason it's still around is it's a cash cow and fills a niche in the product lineup.
The S type, no doubt, based from a Volvo platform allows the new direction at Lincoln and future product development.
There was nothing to stop Lincoln from building the Mark X---even despite its use of the 3.9 Litre V8, 280Bhp@6,000 Rpm engine. If anything Ford Motor would have garnered additional profit from an existing platform---buying time to develop a new one. Maybach is based on the old MB-S platform, so Ford could have done the same thing, except Mark X would have sold whereas Maybach has not.
There was nothing to stop Lincoln from buidling the Continental 2002 concept car. They could have adapted the design to the existing Volvo platform if need be...if they were looking for a modifiable platform. Certainly it might be true they couldn't stretch the Mustang platform into a four-door. But using the Mustang platform for the Mark X, with the attendent high-performance V8's under the hood is possible.
Obviously the management at Ford Motor won't spend above $XYZ dollars for any platform---even if it is earmarked for a higher priceline marque---meaning there is a built in baseline which no division is allowed to reach above, regardless of the ultimate selling price of the car. This logic accounts for what AK says about the limits of the Panther platform. The denouement is that Lincoln is being dismantled for lack of proper product---whether or not the larger V8 fits in the smaller engine bay of DEW98---I can't imagine the engineers have forgotten how to 'hot-rod' a motor. S alone will not save Lincoln, nor a "people mover" derivative built at Oakville.
Failure to build Mark X, and the cars like it, is the reason why Marek Reichmann left Detroit for Astons at the behest of Dr. Bez---creating the beautiful Aston Martin Four-door---in six months flat. If they don't build that, Reichmann will soon be working for Carlos Ghosn, or Mr. Lutz at Cadillac. Between J. Mays, Freeman Thomas, Reichmann, and Peter Horbury, Ford Motor has the designers capable of creating fabulous Lincolns and Continentals---plus a new type of Lincoln for the other side of the market---Mr. Ford needs to take the constraints off, and lock the bean-counters in the other room.
AK may well be right...but it demonstrates the constraints being put on both the engineers and the designers with respect to Lincoln, and the marketing clinics their designs are being subjected to. We have the S, now the for-named "Z". Once Imperial hits the roads, the Z will stand not for Zephyr, or Zorro, it will stand for Zetsche. That will be the only Mark left standing, where will Lincoln be?
"Alas poor Lincoln, to die or not to die, but for a floor-pan and fuel tank be...whether 'tis nobler to fight or die alone, you've been left a clinkin'"
DouglasR
Platform sharing isn't the problem - every mass market mfr has to do that today. The problem is the lack of a suitable RWD platform to use across the company. DEW98 works for Jag because they're in a much higher price range. They need a cheaper RWD platform similar to the mustang platform. In fact, despite earlier reports that said it wasn't possible to stretch the mustang platform for a sedan I heard that crash tests are secretly taking place on exactly such a platform.
Under the cirumstances the D3 platform w/AWD seemed to be the next best choice.
Lincoln is **supposed** to be premium brand. Yet they're giving us warmed-over Mazdas (2 of em) for gawd's sake. Now the S is a warmed-over Volvo which is an improvement no doubt I'll give em that. I'll even take the S as a mid-line vehicle, but it ain't no flagship.
At the risk of repeating myself, Lincoln HAS one of the best RWD platforms in the industry in the DEW98. No one can convince me that this platform could not be used economically even if it had to be stretched a little, to build a REAL RWD flagship sedan based on, for example, the Continental Concept of 2002. A car like this could COMMAND a premium price. A car with serious cachet, along with handling and power.
Ford will always be an also-ran, well actually they may not always be anything, if they keep giving us the cr%%$*p they're pushing off now as Lincolns. Ford had the money to build the GT and for what? 2 years of production of a few hundred cars - what kind of resources and $$$ did that cost that could have been spent on a vehicle that could bring long-term customers in instead of a few millionaires?
Ford has half-done everything for the last 5 to 10 years IMHO. Look at the Mercury Marauder - that could have been a car worth having. But when the final vehicle hit the streets, a stock Honda Accord was faster 0-60. I already detailed the failings of Lincoln in another post. How about the 500/Montego? Talk about BLAND. And UNDERPOWERED. I've STILL not seen a Fusion or Milan on the road. One Zephyr. And then there's the non-competitive Freestar and Monterey minivans. Geez, to save a buck the bean counters even had Ford stop painting the seat mechanisms on Navigators a couple of years ago. Then they had to RECALL all of em because they were rusting. IDIOTIC attempts to save 20cents per vehicle are costing them millions.
And now they've redesigned the Navigator to appeal to Magic Johnson I guess (he's the guy who introduced it). Well, they've been paying him millions of dollars, I guess it was time to have him EARN it, huh? Maybe their target demographic for the Nav are rappers and pimps, I don't know. But it sure does not appeal to me anymore.
I think too many of us are focused on what we personally want from Lincoln instead of what makes good business sense.
Well, it's not about that for me. I can't even afford a stripper Z at this point. For me it's a desire to have an American car that can be pointed to and say "that's a quality luxury performance vehicle designed and made in America." I guess it's patriotic xenophobia on my part.
I am starting to feel like Don Qixote though - jousting at windmills. It might be getting time to give up on this quest and accept that American engineering and ingenuity is dead.
My hope is that once they're profitable they'll be able to do what you suggest (create world class RWD sedans in the U.S.). But right now they just can't afford it.
Ford Motor has $25Bn in cash-on-hand, plus $35Bn in credit available to them. It is inconceivable that "they can't afford it." Given what will not happen at Lincoln in the next 24 months, there will be no Lincoln left in terms of car sales to preserve the brand. There was a time when Lincoln sold 35,000 cars a year and that was satisfactory. But that was 40 years ago. Mr. Ford can spend 15% Ford Motor resources to save the brand, build a new more efficient factory, make money off the real-estate from Wixom, etc. to bring Lincoln back to the fore.
The more plausible point of view is loss of nerve or understanding at the Glass House. Mr. Fields and Ms. Stevens probably have never driven, much less sat in the great Lincolns and Continentals that made the brand what it is. They are far removed from the ethos that the public understands with respect to Lincoln. The "Way Forward" Plan reflects this failure.
35% of Ford Motors sales last year in the U.S. were cars. A sorry state of affairs. If Mr. Ford relegates Lincoln to a brand designation on Ford platforms, and puts his L-M dealers in a bind with no new Mercury products, the death of both brands will be on his watch. Simply put: Jaguar consumed the cash that Lincoln needed. But that situation can be reversed: simply use the Jaguar platform for a new Continental and Lincoln, amortising the costs of both.
Ford Motor is far from dead, or on the edge of bankruptcy...unless of course it is propped up only by Ford Motor Credit. Yet Ford makes money outside America, and their own stock reports declare that fact. Ergo, there is no excuse not to save Lincoln now. Yes, there is abject Panic at the Glass House---the Zephyr name change proves that. Change must come, but not two years from now. The difference is in the initiative. Mr. Ford, not Mr. Fields, has to be the person to announce the new direction Lincoln is taking. That he will not preside over the dismantling of a great brand and tradition. Lincoln has not been at the forefront of the market in a long time. So the opportunity knocks. The loyal public will wait if the initiative is cast.
Ford has all the resources in the world to make the best cars, it already makes the best trucks. Those at the Glass House have to realise that there is a great majority of disappointed prospective customers that have waited too long---and yet they can garner the best of their design and engineering talent to make the best Lincolns---the finest American cars---again. Cadillac, Lincoln, and even Imperial ceded far too much to the competition and gave up trying. But now Ford must do it. For their investment in Jaguar and Aston will be rendered moot if Lincoln and Mercury devolve to ashes. Henry Leland founded both Cadillac and Lincoln on that principle: building the best. And for decades Mr. Leland did, why Edsel bought Lincoln (not to mention the firesale price!) and he improved upon Mr. Leland's work. TODAY, William C. Ford Jr. has the chance to pick up that challice again.
Lincoln is NOT "luxury for the blue-jeans set"---as Ann Steven commented. Never has been, never should be. But those at the Glass House have to have faith in their team, and even more important: faith in the American buyer.
Lincoln inspires the loyalty of those who know it best....and S is not yet the best.
DouglasR
Sure it may remind you of a TL (One of the best selling luxury cars in America) or a Lexus (the best selling luxury brand in America) but perhaps that is not too too bad of a thing. It reminds me of those two but with a ton more styling. Lincoln needs a new direction. Everyone may have loved the LS, but guess what, it sucked sales wise after the first year. I think that they made a serious mistake with the New navigator and will have to wait for the next redesign to do something good for that SUV. However, I think the MKZ, MKX, and MKS are good for the brand. If they had come out with the Continental concept only the early Lincoln fanatics would have bought it. That's not a good thing.
I agree with douglas on one thing. I think Lincoln needs its own platform and to be able to build all its cars from that platform. I had said that mid last year. That would be very good for the brand. I hope that with Jaguar moving far up market, Lincoln will get some much needed investment. Jag needs to move far far up market into the Bentley category. I said that in 2004. We'll see, Ford just needs to hire me. I have some good ideas years before their time. I won't share the rest till I see a check.
Ford is doing the right thing with Lincoln. They have a good vehicle in the meat of the market, entry lux, that is competitive in most every way. The MKX will add serious sales to the brand as well.
Think of the MKZ and the MKX being the ES350 and the RX350 of the Lincoln line, bread and butter and the brand attractions. One in the family, then Lincoln can move their customers up. That gives lincoln time and money to develop new vehicles and keep the lineup fresh without having to blow all their investment cash on a new single use platform.
The MKS will be another hit for Lincoln. It is attractive, fresh, and shows a real understanding by Ford of what the lux market wants, namely technology. These vehicles should be rolling showcases. The Acura RL is a $50k AWD sub 290hp V6 car that is lauded basically for its competence and technology. Ford can easily undercut the RL with a bigger safer car with equal or better performance from the beautiful 4.4L V8 for $10k less.
Lincoln will move tons of those cars. Mark my words, as long as Ford stays the course, within 3 years Lincoln will be back in its heyday. Then, maybe hey can add kewl halo cars like the Mark 9 built off a Stang chassis WITH an IRS.
By the end of the 2008 CY, Lincoln will be on a serious roll.
Cadilac, Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, Infiniti, Audi.
I will say this. For the MKZ and the MKX it is fine, anything above that and you'll run into trouble. You really think the the Lexus IS could be put next to a BMW 3 Series if it had a Camry or Corolla platform. It'd be laughed out of existence. When you are playing against the big boys, you need to come big. No guts, no glory. Lexus shares chasis at the entry level cars and on its SUVs because every body else does. Merc and Chrys, GM and Cadi, VW and Audi, but not in their mid size luxury cars.
How about this as a compromise, how about they just keep the DEW platform and make all their cars off of that. They could stretch it as they like and play with it with all the R&D it's going to take to take a Volvo or Ford chassis and make it work right. Then you can have your Mustang liek luxury coupe that can go up against a GTO, you could have an MKS, and you could have a Town Car. You could even shorten it, as they did with the Mustang, and have a replacement for the Zephyr in several years. Don't let anyone say that the chassis will be too old, because you can always rework a chassis, remember the Fox platform or look at the new Camry, I think that is the same platform that they were using WAT back in the 80s, and it also was and is used in the Highlander, the RX350, the Lexes ES, and I am sure I am missing one or two. The Accord platform, we don't even need to talk about because it has been stretch and massaged more than Gumby. And wit hthe DEW, Lincoln would be RWD.
Although many of the products are a year or more away, Ford has the full-sized Five Hundred, Freestyle, Montego, Lincoln MKS, Volvo S80, and Volvo XC90 on variations of one platform, and the middle-sized Mazda 6 (Sedan, wagon and hatchback), the middle to large sized Fusion, Milan, and Zephyr, and the Edge and MKX CUVs on variations of another platform.
A significant plus for Ford is the availability of AWD on both platforms. I think that once most of us drive an AWD vehicle with systems as good as those Ford uses, we will realize that we don't need RWD, and may actually prefer AWD.
Think about what all of us will be saying one year from now, when the new and updated vehicles are on sale, or almost on sale. Ford and Lincoln-Mercury dealerships will once again be fun and exciting places.
I was tempted to jump the gun and order a 2007 S-80, but my work day yesterday reminded me that if I buy a sedan, I need the large trunk of the MKS / Five Hundred / Montego, so I will have to be patient.
Ford has screwed up with sedans, and the Fusion triplets alone can't rectify that. Anyone can see the 500/Montego does not sell anywhere near what they should. It is pathetic that Chevy can take an old platform like the Impala and literally trounce the 500. Ford plans to fix the dull front end in the spring of 2007. But the 500 will keep its dumpy profile and awkward rear end. I know they cannot undo the dumb styling anytime soon, but get some more hp choices into it, and advertise more like the Impala does. Ford could use the income of higher sales to get back on track.
The MKS is competitive now--and I understand that some of you love its indistinctive styling--but it won't come to market for over two more years. Lexus has updated versions right now of the IS, ES, and GS. The new LS will be out long before the new Lincoln. Of course, Lincoln has nothing planned to go against the LS, so that is moot.
BTW, the EX350 is now built off the Avalon platform, not the Camry's. The RX350 may share architecture with its Toyota stablemate, but it does not share body panels, windows, etc.
The Edge and MKX are just too darned much alike. Cadillac uses all its own bodies now. The DTS may share architecture with the Lucerne, but they do not share doors and windows and cowls and so on. The other Caddys share even less with models which share their architecture. Cadillac is doing better than they have in years, because their cars are now perceived as belonging in the luxury segment.
Jaguar has a lot of cachet, but not much else. The new Type S won't be here until 2008. The XJ sedan, good as it is, has turned out to be a sales dud, like the current S. Ford has now invested more than 10 billion into a make that has not returned them a dime. To move it even more upmarket might be a nice dream, but it would not increase sales, which they desperately need. The new S should help and the XJ will get a much needed makeover in 2009--if Jaguar holds on that long.
Meanwhile, Lincoln is becoming the new Mercury. With nothing new in the pipeline for Mercury (the Meta One has now been killed and the Freestyle will continue with Ford with a new 3 bar grill) looks like toast. Lincoln no longer gets unique bodies (except for holdovers like the Town Car...though based on the Crown Vic, does not share so much as a piece of glass with the Vicky), but instead must make do with eyeliner and frosting on Fords.
I do hope the MKS can keep its own unique body, and not end up as a Ford or Mercury too, a la Fusion/Milan/MKZ. It's a start. But for Lincoln to be riding high as soon as 2008, a lot of other luxury makes will have to start sitting on their haunches and waiting for them to catch up. Not likely.
If Lincoln is the new Mercury, at least it will still be around. Going up against Buick and Chrysler may not be what we wanted to see for this venerable old make, but I'd rather see that than nothing.
Porche is the most profitable car company on earth. They don't need to increase sales as much as they need to make a very good profit. Look a Bentley, look at Porche, look at Land Rover. Not a lot of volume but as long as they remain profitable and add something to the bottom line instead of taking it away, they are worth having. I say defnitely push Jag up against Bentley. VW doesn't mind that Bentley isn't high volume, they are adding sustainable products and running at full capacity.
The Zephyr is outselling the Milan. Lincoln has a good name. It leads in cusomer satisfaction and is one of the tops in quality. Lexus came from nowhere on that same philosphy, selling quality products that are a good value and keeping your customers happy. Hard to fault Lincoln for following that paradigm. RWD is NOT a cure all for sale success. Even Lexus is only predicting 40k a year in sales for the IS. The Zephyr is already nearly selling at that rate. So, what would the ROI be for a distinct platform? The RWD sport sedan market is a VERY small market. 110k RX330/400hs were sold last year. How many IS300s? 10k. How many G35 sedanss are sold? Not even 40k. Even BMW 3 series? 100k? And they lead the segement.
Speaking of BMW, BMW pissed me off, I won't be back. Pissed my bro-in-law off, too. Both crappy cars with snotty dealer service. Neither of us will buy another. We're both looking domestic this time.
And, I'll make another prediction. Lincoln will increase it's sales rate 60% by the close of CY '08. Thats right, Lincoln wil sell 17k cars a month by Dec '08, led by the MKZ, MKX, and MKS. The Nav, LT, TC, Fairlane based "people mover" will fill in the rest.
Hold it buddy. You are talking to the wrong person. You are looking for douglas. I was a person that said I would be looking at a Zephyr to replace my 6 when the Zephyr was not out yet. I still said I would up to the point when I found out it would not get manu-shift. I have defended the MKS as well until I found out it wasn't coming out till Feb 2008. I am sorry but I am a realist, I call a spade a spade. Feb 2008 is too far for the MKS to be here. It was originally supposed to get here this year. This year the 315hp and all the features and design is compeitive, in 2008 it will no longer be if we go by current market actions. I think if that they are making a mistake by introducing the car so far out. I also think instead of grabbing platforms from other Ford manufacturers, they should have their own platform that will give them more atonomy and more distinction. I say give them their own problem and let them run loose. I think the MKS is good, but I think that a shared platform for the brand would be better because then they could compete. You may like Lincoln but that alone won't save them. Especially when they are coming out with a car competitive for today, 2 years from now.
And, to reiterate, the Zephyr and MKX will add up to far more sales than the Aviator/LS combo. They are actually relevant competive vehicles.
The MKS can be delayed becasue it will add fewer sales to the bottom line than the MKX/MKZ as it plays in a pricier market. Lincoln's biggest seller will be the MKX, guaranteed. Its a far more important vehicle than the MKS.
Lincoln made a half hearted attempt with the LS and then they let it languish. The updates to the MKZ show that Ford is far more serious now with Lincoln. It has nothing to do with whether I like Lincoln or not, but simple market realities. You are calling for a huge investment to move into a small market. Instead Ford made a smart investment to move into a broad market and will reap big rewards.
Lexus wasn't built overnight. Neither was Audi. Neither was Acura, or Infiniti. Amazingly 3 out of those 4 made their name with FWD/AWD vehicles. It seems a reasonable assumption that the only market that seems concerned with RWD platforms is the bench racing market. And bench racing sells few cars.
Add up the entire RWD sport sedan market and you will find fewer sales than the amount of Camrys and Accords sold in a year.
Build a solid foundation with a solid customer base, then add fringe halo cars like niche market sport sedans and coupes.
And, 315hp 4,4L V8 is the current engine tune. You assume Ford will make no modifications to the motor in the interceding years if market realities force it to do so. The 3.5L Cyclone is capable of DI and turbocharging, and many rumors have it producing nearly 400hp in DI Turbo form. I think it would be safe to say that Lincoln has that option, as does it have hte option of using the 350hp I6 turbo Volvo motor. Both should be available by MKS launch.
Again, I think you are being a bit pessimistic, though given the debacle Ford has made of its lineup through the early 00's, it is understandable.
I am cheered by the fact that someone does indeed like the S, and champions its cause, defending Ford Motor's position with respect to this car, as MM1 has done. That there is a bloc of people who like the car is good for Lincoln's future. Twin Charging the engine in the S may make for a superb motor...there is hope. Starting with 315Bhp when competitors offer more is not smart.
Lincoln simply can't survive in the long run without a unique facility to the marque---or at least one platform with which it can compete with the best of them. Without such, the next down-turn after this one will kill the brand, nearly a century a tradition goes out the window. Yes the Zephyr is a success in part because it is $10,000 cheaper than the LS---and packaged far more efficiently, but what of the higher end of the market? Ford has both the resources and the designers and engineers to make far better Lincolns, Continentals, and S Types than they are offering, or have ever offered. Ford seems not to want to try. By closing Wixom, killing off its RWD platform (which for Lincoln must remain, otherwise suffer the fate of Cadillac in the Roger Smith Era at GM... & look at 300 sales to understand why), and making NO announcements with respect to future plans...simply tells the loyal buying public that Ford Motor does not care. Sure, they have to do the S, since Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, et. al., ocuppy so much of the market. But that market was created in the first place because of the complacency of Ford, GM, and Chrysler to begin with. In 1956 when Ford went public and the Mark II was new, imports claimed 1.6% of the U.S. market and half of them were VW's!!, Toyota was two years away from introducing cars at L.A. in 1958. I see the same thing happening today with Lincoln. Building Lincolns in Chicago, Oakville, and Hermisilio will not suffice, not matter how good they might come to be.
The S should have been introduced for production now. I saw more than one prospective buyer at the D.C. Auto Show walk away because the L-M rep told them the car was a "teaser". After the Sentinenal, the Mark IX, the Continental 2002 Show Car, the Mark X show car...Lincoln has built nothing. Now they will take another 24 months to roll out S. Better than NOT doing so, I suppose. If it arrives in AWD, even despite its Volvo underpinnings, it has to be a hot-blooded American V8---315BHp will not suffice. I am very glad someone likes the car...I hope that remains true when its sees the tarmac two years from now.
I can't help but believe that those in charge of the fate of Lincoln simply are disconnected from its past, and what can make the brand great again. But I am equally cheered by the fact that the younger generation sees something in the Zephyr and the S which I find rather mundane---so the bells aren't tolling just yet for Lincoln.
DouglasR
No, actually, the Lincoln MKS was supposed to go into production later this year at the Atlanta plant. Ford has made this information public in a press release. Someone please post the link because I am too tired to get it right now.
Lexus wasn't built overnight. Neither was Audi. Neither was Acura, or Infiniti. Amazingly 3 out of those 4 made their name with FWD/AWD vehicles. It seems a reasonable assumption that the only market that seems concerned with RWD platforms is the bench racing market. And bench racing sells few cars.
Look at the competitors with RWD. Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, Infiniti. Then there is Acura who has shifted to SH-AWD for its premium sedans. Why didn't they just go with cheaper, FWD platforms if RWD only appeals to bench racing? Perhaps they know something that we do not. I am sure that Lexus has a bundle of market researcj analysts at their disposal. Then there is the juggernaut 300C and GM is introducing a RWD Impala (or rumored four door Monte), Buick, and Pontiac sedan in the next coming years. When you see the crowd rushing, don't wait till you see the bull stampede behind them to run.
And, 315hp 4,4L V8 is the current engine tune. You assume Ford will make no modifications to the motor in the interceding years if market realities force it to do so.
That is what they said it would have so that is what I am going on. I would think that would be the most logical place to start.
I am not trying to be pessimistic. Like you I think the MKZ and MKX are great vehicles to the line up. I think the MKX will do well if priced well. I will concede with what others have said that the next time around they should differentiate the MKX from the Edge a little more and have them not share body panels as Lexus does with the Highlander and RX. Going forward, Lincoln should look into a single RWD platform that can be used for all its cars because it saves costs and gives the brand more distinction. I would like Lincoln to be seen as far from being a Ford for most of its line up just as you would NOT compare Lexus and Toyota for the far majority of Lexus' car lineup.
I don't care if Lincoln goes FWD/AWD or RWD. Get the products out. Of course Zephyr and MKX are going to do better than LS and Aviator. But Lincoln's volume seller (now less than 50,000 units per year) is still the old Town Car...that's kinda scary.
And now the Navigator comes out with not much more than a controversial grill, slathered on chrome, and 6 speed when Escalade is all new with better mileage, 403 hp, a tasteful interior, and a more integrated-looking extended version than the Navigator L (MKNL??). GM do this when they are losing even more money than Ford.
I hope that (like some of you imply) that I am blowing an ill and unnecessary wind out of my nether regions. But I hate to see Cadillac win the big SUV segment too. Lincoln was there first and at first did the luxury SUV better than GM. Ford itself has issued mea culpas about their missteps. What they need is a lesson from another loser: GM. Move product intros up, not back. The big GM 2007 SUVs are out now and doing way better than expected.
2) Please use number in your arguments rather than assumptions. Who leads the class in RWD entry lux and how many do they sell? How does that compare with what Lincoln will be selling with the Zephyr? If the Zephyr manages 40k a year it will outsell the RWD G35 sedan. How about the A3? A4? The A6? The TT? The A8? Do people shun them for being FWD based? The S40? S60? S80? XC90? The TSX? The TL? The RL (FWD based chassis)? The ES330? The RX330?
3) They also said the Zephyr would have 210hp. I guess it having 221 at launch is illogical? Wanna take bets on whether the 3.5L premieres with more than 250hp? Ford will have the motors competitive as it is important for them to do so.
4) Again, 60% of Lexus sales are rebadged Toyotas. Lexus is the largest luxury plate in NA. Are you saying Ford should follow a different paradigm becasue Lexus isn't successful enough? Again, I'm confused. Sharing a platform with an equally upscale S80 and XC90 in the MKS doesn't sound exactly downmarket.
You seem to be stuck in a rut. And the numbers and facts do not support your conclusions. I'm not being mean, just honest.
And, BTW, the Zephyr outsold the TownCar last month. Until the MKX gets here, the Zeph is the new volume leader.
Volvo has been a sales success with FWD. Audi has become a standard bearer with FWD. Acura has not one single RWD based vehicle in their lineup. RWD is NOT a panacea. People said the same things about the Stang having a live axle in the rear and being old tech. It still outsells ALL its competitors.
There is more to the auto market than what the bench racers like to argue about over a pint.
I agree with your assessment of the Nav. It isn't exactly a home run, more like a bunt, but then I always disliked the previous one as well. And if Honda can sell 50k Cringelines a year, there is still hope for the MKL/Nav/braceface.
No joke?(sarcasm) I said that in the post right after e one you replied to.
2. If the Zephyr manages 40k a year it will outsell the RWD G35 sedan.
Okay let's talk numbers because you are using more twists than a politician. Yes the G35 sells in less numbers than a MKZ if you annualize the sales. HOWEVER THE G35 SELLS AT A HIGHER TRANSACTION PRICE. As does the 3 Series, as does the Lexus IS, as does the Cadi CTS. Less volume ,more exclusivity, and more money. Focus on the dollars not the volume.
Don't put Audi as a benchmark, they haven't been able to crack into the market at the rate they would like too, AND THEY WILL ADMIT IT.
Again, 60% of Lexus sales are rebadged Toyotas. Lexus is the largest luxury plate in NA.
Yes but two things. We are only talking about cars, so slash the SUV sales that make up the chunk of that 60% out of your argument. And secondly, Lexus is the largest and is still trying to compete with BMW and Mercedes on the German's level, and LEXUS WILL ADMIT IT. Also, BMW is the most profitable luxury nameplate in the US.
They also said the Zephyr would have 210hp. I guess it having 221 at launch is illogical? Ahhh good political spin there. The increased horsepower was due to the new SAE measurement. NOT because Ford upped the power. Good try, try again next time. If they say it will have 315, is not the most logical thing to think, since they make the car NOT you, that the car will have 315hp?
~driver
The MkS did two things to me. I put it as wallpaper on my computer (big deal you think, but I never bother with wallpaper usually and since it have been on my computer at work, numerous people have made the comment about what a great looking Lincoln this is). The other thing it made me so, was wander down to my local lincoln dealer and I took a look at the Zephyr (err MkZ) during a lunch break. Not a bad car either - much better looking in the metal than in photos.
I read here about how the Continental concept is soo much better that the MkS. I'm sorry, but I looked at the photos and I hated it. Looked too much like a fad car, and I felt the look would get stale very quickly. Also, it would probably make a good "gangster" car, and I'm sorry but I do not want one of them. This car would probably have been a hit for six months or so, and then I think its sales would slide into the abyss.
Just my tqo cents worth...
No joke?(sarcasm) I said that in the post right after e one you replied to.
No, you didn't. You said it was fall of 2006 and we're saying it was never earlier than fall of 2007. You said Ford's own press release said fall of 2006 - where is it?
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Typically, if production begins after January 1, the model is referred to as the next years model, correct? So, if production begins in 2/08, we would likey call it a 2009 model based on past practice. I saw the quotes from suppliers about the February 2008 date, but has Ford had a press release that indicated a timeframe?