The Jag AJ V-8 would be my first choice too, but as you say, not likely to see the underside of a Lincoln hood anytime soon. Besides, this power module will no doubt be mounted East/West, and I don't think any V-8 in the Ford Stable is built for that at the moment.....
It's not that difficult to convert an engine from NS to EW. Anything is possible, just depends upon the resources. The main issue is packaging allowing for AWD.
The capless fuel filler is a nice idea, but I'm not sure it's the technological tour de force for the Lincoln flagship Mark Fields implies it is.
Does anyone know if the MKS will also have the adaptable headlights as on the show car? It's too bad that Lincoln made a big deal of that technology, but Lexus beat them to market. Lincoln will look like a Johnny-come-lately.
Does anyone know if the MKS will also have the adaptable headlights as on the show car? It's too bad that Lincoln made a big deal of that technology, but Lexus beat them to market. Lincoln will look like a Johnny-come-lately.
The MKS headlights uses side mounted LEDs to illuminate the curve while the normal headlights remain fixed. This is different than the current adaptive headlight systems that swivel the main lights like Lexus and the new MKX.
If the MKS has what the concept had then they will be breaking new ground.
The MKS headlights uses side mounted LEDs to illuminate the curve while the normal headlights remain fixed.
That's what the show car used, I just wondered if anyone knew anything about the upcoming production car's specs.
Regardless of the difference between what was shown on the MKS and what is being offered on the Lexus, Lexus is here now advertising "adaptive headlights." Given Ford's marketing to date, I doubt they'll do a very good job of saying they showed it off first, and what the differences are. Unfortunatly, the public and probably the press will see Lexus as the technology leader.
Unfortunatly, the public and probably the press will see Lexus as the technology leader.
Lincoln offered both HIDs AND Adaptive Headlights on the 1995 Mark VIII. So I don't see how Lexus or anyone else can claim first to market. Fact is many mfrs are offering it now including the 2007 MKX that goes on sale in a few months.
But the 1995 Mark VIII isn't here, now, advertising adaptive headlights, Lexus is. Perception in the luxury field is everything. Lincoln needs to do everything it can, now, to enhance its image as a technology leader. I really do hope their advertising does that for the MKX since it's the next new model on the line.
"We at Lincoln introduced adapative headlights in 1995. Of course, we stopped making that car many years ago. Wanna buy this fancy Mazda? It's made in Mexico and includes the finest D-L shifter and hood prop rod we could engineer. Or maybe 5000 pounds of Volvo with a Yamaha engine will be more to your liking. We also have the Navigator which only gives up 100 horse power to the Escalade but also has worse fuel economy. If you want a truck we have the Mark LT which is a Ford F-150 with more chrome cleverly disguised and re-engineered to be an F-150 with more chrome"
I think they would be wise to avoid the engineering peeing contest.
Scooter I think you are being a little too hard on the MKS. Have you seen them both in person? I have and they look nothing alike. Isn't the Bentley GT on the same platform as the Phaeton? Isn't the TL on an advanced Accord platform? Who cares if the cars are nothing alike? I think people who are saying it is a gizzed up Volvo need to reevaluate what they are saying and think about if anybody will really give a care since you can't tell and it doesn't matter.
I think Scooter's point is that the CTS or STS are not on built on, for example, tarted-up Saab architecture. That a Lexus 350 is almost the same underneath as the Camry does not make the Lexus bad or not worth buying. But it does make it a FWD-based near-luxury car that does not have the driving dynamics of the BMW 3 or 5 series, or even the CTS.
The MKS will sell and will have some good attributes, but it is limited to AWD and the extra weight that means in order to get around the FWD bias. And its styling is current near luxury cliche...not groundbreaking or innovative or polarizing. Like it or not (and many people don't), the Chrysler 300, even as common as they are now, still naturally draws the eye when it passes. Even Town Cars, as old and worn as the design has become, still draws attention from Joe non-enthusiast public that an Acura RL or Infiniti M cannot.
Lincoln isn't in Toyota's position where the reputation of the car and resale can allow for more bland styling. And even Toyota, within its ongoing plethora of new products and updates, is beginning to add some pizzaz to its sedans. Put a 2007 Camry next to a Fusion, and the Fusion still looks OK, but the Camry looks drawn with more finesse. Never thought that would happen!
Put a 2007 Camry next to a Fusion, and the Fusion still looks OK, but the Camry looks drawn with more finesse. Never thought that would happen!
You must be kidding! The 2007 Camry looks like a Mazda6. I'll give Toyota credit for putting the 3.5 and lots of goodies in the 07 Camry but not for style or exterior design. And it looks like Toyota is losing it's rock solid reputation.
""We at Lincoln introduced adapative headlights in 1995. Of course, we stopped making that car many years ago. Wanna buy this fancy Mazda? It's made in Mexico and includes the finest D-L shifter and hood prop rod we could engineer."
Scooter, this time I have to agree with ya. As loyal as I have been to Lincoln in the past, for 15 years, in fact, This Zephyr has really pissed me off. And you just explained why very well.
I remember when the Mark VIII first came out. I was good friends with the LIncoln dealer by then, and he threw me the keys to one one day that hadn't even been prepped yet, and asked me to drive it and give him my opinion. Now, Larry had been known for driving Marks, always white, for years. And here was his new one.
I kicked that baby down from 4th gear going 40mph, and it downshifted directly to first, snapping my neck. For such a big sled, I was way impressed! I also loved the style of it. When the HIDs first came out, again he had me drive one. Of course, those had to be recalled, as they caught fire a time or two, but still, the Mark was awesome. I still maintain that 97 was the high water mark at Lincoln. The Town Car was awesome and drop dead reliable. The Continental had been mostly fixed and gave the gals the car they wanted. The Mark was there for the 'old sport'. Those were the days.
YOU've got to be kidding. First, are you suggesting the Mazda6 is not a good design? Secondly, park the Camry next to the 6, if you are having trouble seeing how Camry has taken that design genre to another level.
Lincoln has had many firsts over the years. However, they tend to lose their nerve when the new stuff is troublesome. The four door convertible: why didnt they keep developing it after convertibles returned? They had the first anti-lock brakes, somewhere back in about 1970, but then discontinued them until years later when everyone else started using them. The Mark VIII headlights are are a great example.
It is taking FoMoCo longer than most to discover that you can't return to success by eliminating and delaying new models. Going back a few years, they discontinued the T-bird in 1997, because sales had dropped--even though it was still making numbers that other companies might have seen as good for a 2 door coupe in that era of lower coupe sales. The problem, if there was one, was they were still selling the 1989 T-bird, and if any segment needs frequent updating to keep sales rolling, it is 2 door coupes. Then they dithered around until bringing out the ill-conceived 2002. It also made good sales for a $40,000 2 seater--but Ford was looking for better sales than that market could provide. Withe some styling changes, it could have been a Lincoln and might still be around.
And another thing (lobbing in the kitchen sink): Make a damn car off the Panther platform or import one from Australia. Keep all the planned models, but get at least one rear driver in the lineup. Give it some pizazz. Call it the MK Town Car if you want...everyone knows a Town Car is a Lincoln.
Whether it's a good design or not is debatable. I think it's hideous. But why does Toyota get a free pass to put out a "brand new" car that clones the front end of another car? If Ford did that you'd be jumping up and down and screaming about how derivative it was.
I can barely stand it to have to wait for this new car to come out. I've never been much of a Lincoln, fan but did like the Mark VIII.
If ford doesn't cost cut the interior and keeps & adds to the gadgets of this vehicle, this could be very well the best Lincoln ever. I also think if it does accomplish the task of being the best Lincoln, ever it could be the best sedan ever to wear an american badge.
Of course it's debatable, and to each his or her own. (But I still wonder how you see the Mazda6 design as hideous.)
As for grills and such looking alike, it happens, and doesn't bother me much. Acura and Mazda had almost the same grill just a few years back on the TL and the Millenia. And variations on that grin-shaped grill have been used by others too. It is the overall shape and presence of the car that makes it (or doesn't) for me--not the front end. Witness the Explorer. They completely changed the front clip and altered the grill completely, but it still looks like the same old design to me (and apparently to a lot of the buyig public).
Have you never seen a 61, 62 or 63 Continetal 4dr convertible???
Yes I have and they were as ugly then as they are now. My reference is also to the ugly 4-door current convertible Chrysler 300. Dude it doesn't even look right to have a 4 door convertible. YUK !!!! :surprise:
Your lack of historical perspective is startling.
I agree my historical perspective when it comes to cars isn't great. The old cars made in the 30's 40's 50's 60's 70's were not much different technology wise than the Model-T. Sure in the 50's the radio was put into mass production cars-Whoopie ! 60's all they did was make powerful engines for back then, that most couldn't out run the common Toyota Camry made today. My father and I got into it over this. I told him I can go get a Cadillac CTS-V and beat every factory production car made in the 1960's muscle car era. I said I'd BET you everything I own and don't have to worry about losing it.
My point isn't to totally trash the past cars, but just to point out more has be done technology wise in the last 16 years than from the period of 1900-1989. :P
The new Lincoln MKS, represents perfectly my point.
I don't think the MKS, represents a good Town Car, or am I wrong ? Isn't a Town Car, suppose to be some floaty luxo boat ? I guess Lincoln can reinvent the name I suppose. It wouldn't deter my appetite for one.
Well, Rocky, Lincoln is certainly seems to hit your target with the MKS. Still, I hope you notice that there are lots of people, as well as the auto press, that don't see the MKS as a savior of the brand. It may be just what you want, but there are others who want Lincoln to be really special, and this is not a car that the average consumer will even notice.
Glad that you do though...Lincoln needs your business. As for it being the best American car ever, well, it is hampered by ho-hum styling, weight, AWD to avoid being FWD, one engine choice, and no visual ties to the rest of the Lincoln line-up. But I'd be thrilled to see it take off and sell like Christmas.
BTW, any 2007 car is light years ahead of a 1960s car technologically. Heck, a run of the mill current Chevy sedan is light years ahead of a 1963 Corvette Stingray or 1965 Mustang. I think any car has to be judged in the context of its time, and the impact it had there.
I cannot see the MKS stand out that much in a field of stellar sedan choices whether from the US, Germany, Scandinavia or Japan. But again, I'd love to buy you dinner as soon as I am shown to be wrong. Cuz I love Lincoln. Always have. But I don't see much there now that would draw me over the competition.
Thanx for the reply pal. The MKS, is light years ahead in "Gadgetology". This new model has most of the bells and whistles, along with a superb build quality from the Volvo platform. I never have liked Lincolns, much but this ride grabs my attention. I'm 27 yrs old and about everyone I talk to I show the pics to say they can't believe it's really a Lincoln. They say when is that nice car coming out ? So perhaps to the traditionalist it's a bust, but to the youth and usual import buyers it's a hit. The styling to us is modern, and the interior and electronics are spot on. Sure we hope for even more new "state of the art" gadgets like Ford is promising for the production unit but we are impressed so far. I think if Lincoln can keep this car around $50K this will be the best selling luxury car and will steal sales from Chrysler and Cadillac, and even a few from Buick. Of course these are just myopinions and yes I think the Lincoln turnaround is starting to gain traction. So yes pour me a glass of the Lincoln, Kool-Aid. :shades: This usual GM fan is drinking it and loving it.
I am also very excited to see what the all new 2007' Volvo S80 brings to the table. This could very well be my next vehicle also. I also am in love with this new Volvo. :shades:
"The old cars made in the 30's 40's 50's 60's 70's were not much different technology wise than the Model-T."
Rocky, I love ya, but I can't let you get away with that. Because the same could be said about today's Impala - it's not much different than those cars of the 70's either. Other than an antique fuel injection system, the pushrods are still there. :P
"My father and I got into it over this. I told him I can go get a Cadillac CTS-V and beat every factory production car made in the 1960's muscle car era. I said I'd BET you everything I own and don't have to worry about losing it."
I'm on your father's side on this one. Have YOU ever ridden in a Pontiac Judge? A Challenger 440 six pack? Or a Galaxie 500 XL Interceptor? They were all scary fast.... and, now where near as stable as the CTS either, so the scary worked both ways.
It's always interesting reading the diversity of opinions here. As a 40 something, the MKS does little for me. I kind of like the interior, except for the suede dash, even though I see a lot of Acura RL to the layout, but the exterior leaves me cold. I think a luxury or near luxury marque should have some heritage to it, and except for the hood creases reminiscent of the 1958 - 1960 Lincolns, which no one seems to like, there's nothing that says Lincoln, not the squinty headlights, nor the Infinity-derived M class c pillar, nor the last generation Olds Aurora rear-end. The waterfall grille is Lincolnesque, but they're losing that on the trucks, so so much for a Lincoln look.
I'm very glad the car speaks to the 20 and 30 somethings, but how many in that age bracket will be able to afford the car? Perhaps it'll translate into sales, and I really hope it does, by giving that age group something to aspire to and bring them into the showroom and into an MKZ, planning one day to get into the MKS. But for this buyer from a demographic who can afford one now, I'll have to like it better in person than I do based on the pictures.
However, I'll still strongly consider it if it's made here in the USA.
I just don't understand your enthusiasm for a concept car that will likely change quite a bit from what Edmunds has posted. Even they say the suede on the dash and door panels is likely to go (Thank goodness!) I'll bet the 20 inch wheels are gone too. You have no real clue how the thing will ride or handle yet you're ready to plunk down more money than it's worth or probably than you have to buy one. THat is unless you buy the Volvo it's copied from instead. Or maybe both?
The instrument panel is very ordinary, in fact it's a typical dumb-down panel with idiot lights galore rather than guages. The center stack area looks nice, but it will probably change too. EXCEPT for the shifter - has anyone else counted the number of detents for the shifter? Guess what? Looks like another Ford vehicle with the "D-L" driver-no-control transmission gear shift. Who would buy a vehicle with so little driver control except a blue-hair? Why would a 'young' enthusuiast want such a car?
I do like the front styling, and the sides are OK. I've always wanted a car with a little Lincoln-star shaped "vent" that opens and closes on my front fenders (Not). The rear would be nice if it hadn't already been done before - several times. As it is, there are so many more possibilities that it is nothing short of disappointing what they are doing.
And if it's priced at $50K, you may be the only buyer for the thing. It should come in closer to $40K. That's a bit higher than the AWD S-80 it's based on.
And u can trash the early 60s Continental all u want. Not a single other auto enthusiast (I would venture to say) would agree with you. Those vehicles were ground-breaking at release. They remain perhaps the classiest hunks of metal ever to roll on 4 assembly-line-built wheels. The MKS in contrast is an Aurora/Acura clone built on the body of a Volvo. Not exactly ground-breaking.
nv, love ya 2 pal. HOWEVER-> you and my pops have Altimers disease. :P
0-60 for the Judge was 6.5 seconds. I can take a Toyota Camry and get those kind of numbers. To the best of my knowledge the fastest car back then from the factory was a GT 500 Shelby and it ran 0-60 in 4.8-4.9 secs. I don't know if that counts as a production car or not. The only reason why y'all old tymers jock that era was because you guys jacked up the rear ends and put big tires on the back end. Hit the gas and smoke em' doesn't equal the #'s ya'll claim to get. :P I stand by my claim that today is much better than yesterday when it comes to technology and performance.
I wasn't trying to trash those 60's cars. I like what Cadillac did in styling better back then. "The Rat Pack" obviously did also. :P Anyone, who was anyone back then drove Cadillacs. Today Lincoln, has the chance to do what Cadillac did in the 60's with the new Mark S. :P
You may not like it. My mom doesn't care for it, however many of my friends young, middle, old, like the new modern styling. I agree they could ruin a nearly perfect interior. I personally like the suede, but wouldn't mind black leather dash coverings.
Well, of course the products today are much better, just as the products of the 60s were better than what came before them. I always like the current cars best as a result. Nonetheless, I can recognize the standouts in any given era. Often they were also polarizing designs.
The 60's Continentals are seen by most as understated but elegant, in both an eyecatching and tasteful way. Of course not everyone went for that look or goes for it now, but it certainly was a radical direction change for Lincoln and American sedans on the whole. The look wouldn't work for today without a lot of reinterpretation...perhaps sort of like how the 2009 Camaro relates to the 1969 without being retro (like the Challenger).
Although you like the MKS (a good thing), I think it is boring, like the styling of the Infiniti M is boring: pleasant enough, current, with even a few original flourishes, but nothing that will be seen around the world as a watershed model (either from a styling or engineering standpoint). BTW, I like the new S80 too.
In my oppinion, Lincoln just LOST! Look at the 300c. Chrysler is rolling in success. You have to be bold to make it American. Chrysler and GM have it. What about ford? (500!) But the drawing i saw of the MKS looks okay. And why can't they just call it Mark S?
If you define success as flash in the pan designs that are popular today and forgotten tomorrow, then yes they are successful. The 300 will sell good at first then fall off as people tire of the in-your-face styling and they'll have to start over with something totally new. Meanwhile, the 500 will soldier on with steady sales for years to come with just a few tweaks. When they freshen up the front of the 500 and add the 3.5L V6 I bet it easily outsells the 300.
Remember that there is an update scheduled soon for the 300 too. Chrysler, like Toyota, is not going to sit and let a successful design shrink on the vine for lack of updating. Ford has lost too much market share with their policy of "soldiering on" with the same design, tweaked or not. Doesn't matter if it is "in your face" or understated styling. In this marketplace, it needs to be changed on a regular cycle or people go elsewhere.
They do call it the Mark S. Doesn't it say that on the rear of the concept. Somewhere I had saw a pic of the emblem saying Mark S. It was here or on another site (many) which I've visted to get other pics for my MKS appetite eyes.
Maybe you will like it better in person or perhaps the final production car will be more to your liking ? I just hope Lincoln doesn't ruin it for me. I'd buy it the way it is. I do beg for even more gadgets, because in my book the more the merrier. I guess growing up in the computer age I like "state of the art" electronics, which not just include stereo related or navi related goodies, but also safety features. It's to bad I will die someday, and won't get to experience the future "gadgets" :sick:
Well on a better note I am looking forward to the Volvo S80, but feel this Lincoln, could be a better alternative though. The advantage for the S80, is I absolutely love the interior and think it's the best of any car under $150K. The Lexus LS runs a close second but I would never beable to afford one of those new. The MKS interior is something different and I like it alot also. It reminds me of a modern past, if that makes any since ? (retro) as some say. I guess all my rambling is getting me excited about the future and how quickly car designs are evolving. Now it's Cadillac turn to step up to the plate on the STS and drop their prices $10K and deliver something better on the refresh.
Actually Lincoln reversed their position on the MK pronunciation a few weeks ago stating that too many people were confused (including dealers) and that from now on the vehicles would be pronounced Em-Kay-[ZXS].
Most of us are hoping they'll abandon this silly scheme soon because it's confusing everyone. Even one of the engineers that worked on the MKZ and MKX got confused when I asked about the steering on the MKZ - he gave me the MKX answer then realized his mistake a few minutes later.
I am hoping you are right, Rocky...that the final production car will have more presence and be more to my liking. It's been awhile since Lincoln has made a car that I want to buy over the competition.
I like state of the art electronics too. Been buying PCs since 1988, so the computer age ain't exactly new to me. For Lincoln to offer a car without stability control--at the very least as an option--when Hyundai makes it standard equipment on lesser cars, is a grave omission. I had it on one of my vehicles almost 10 years ago, so I won't to go to fewer features now. And living in WI, I insist on ABS, traction control, auto brake force dist., and stability control on a new car. You can of course drive safely without any of these, but any little advantage when it is slippery--especially when the majority of drivers around you have no driving skills--is worth it to me.
I've seen cars I didn't like in pictures, but when you see them in person I was like oh wow that looks much nicer in person, than in the pics. My generation is certainly going to like the modern exterior styling. I like the way the interior looks with the suede. I would almost wish they'd leave it alone and keep it for at least a option ? I guess if they want to change the interior, then going with a new 07' Volvo S80-ish look wouldn't hurt either.
Time will tell if Ford, keeps this thing a winner or ruins it. I'm hoping they won't ruin the whole car by letting the bean counters close to it. :sick: I'm optomistic enough that Ford won't let em' near it.
We have a ford fan here!The 300 has been selling strong for over two years. The only cars that sell like that on design are BMW's and Mercedes. What can Lincoln claim? The recognition for a decent low cost alternative to a lexus GS. And Lexus buyers won't take a second look at it!! My neighbor as a 500 and sure it's a nice retiree car that with time will show comfort benefit, but no one wants that- but old people. I've seen edmunds spy photos of the new 500, and they ain't all that great looking. There's no way they'll outsell chrysler. And no V8! a ford design official said the same as you when 500 debuted. Huge Mistake!!!
There is no way the 500 will ever outsell the 300. Ford already screwed up the 500 with an old, outdated and extremely underpowered engine, and the design is much too bland. The interior is straight from the Ford Freestyle, one of the worst selling minivans in the world. The negative press the car has received over the past 2 years will hinder many sales in years to come. I believe Chrysler will keep the 300 much more competitive, and will handily outsell Ford every year.
The MKS will only sell if its priced within the competition. If its over 40K, they wont be selling many at all. Who really wants to drive a mediocre Lincoln anyways?
OMG, what in the hell is so great about the 300 ? The 300 is a plasticky Pile of cow dung. I sat in one when they first came out and was wondering what all the hype was about ????. If the 300 is so HOTT, why in the heck has it's sales tanked. I can tell you why ? Chrysler hasn't done anything significant to improve it Hertz rental car interior. :P Sure Lincoln might be late to the show, but they will win grand champion with MKS, with it's price and technology improvements based on what I see is somehing no other domestic can match.
I have to agree with Rocky on the 300 - I drove a 300 Limited in 2004 and thought the interior was cheap, definitely not up to the price. I thought the same thing about its corporate cousin, the Charger, when I drove it. The 300's gunslit windows and large wheels might have had a "wow" factor when it came out, now they just look cartoonish. My wife thinks they're just made to be pimped out, so I doubt I'll ever see one in our garage. The fact the 300 sold so well just speaks to the low-brow taste of the auto press and public!
As blah as I am about the MKS, I like its looks much more than that of the 300. I really hope the build and materials quality are better than the 300's.
"It's to bad I will die someday, and won't get to experience the future "gadgets""
I have two questions for ya, Rocky. Don't you think by the time you're old enough to die, we may have overcome that little problem too? Not saying anything, just asking your opinion, and I admire your optimism.
Second question is, and this one is the corker - if they make that MKS in Mexico, would you buy it, no matter how many gadgets it had? I mean even if it has bluetooth, hot and cooled seats, reverse camera, rain sensing wipers, parktronic, distronic cruise, and even what Lexus is introducing next year - auto-park. This gismo is supposed to park the car with sonar, once you get it close to a spot. The driver controls the speed, the car does the steering. Can't wait to see how that works.
Comments
Rocky
It's not that difficult to convert an engine from NS to EW. Anything is possible, just depends upon the resources. The main issue is packaging allowing for AWD.
Does anyone know if the MKS will also have the adaptable headlights as on the show car? It's too bad that Lincoln made a big deal of that technology, but Lexus beat them to market. Lincoln will look like a Johnny-come-lately.
The MKS headlights uses side mounted LEDs to illuminate the curve while the normal headlights remain fixed. This is different than the current adaptive headlight systems that swivel the main lights like Lexus and the new MKX.
If the MKS has what the concept had then they will be breaking new ground.
That's what the show car used, I just wondered if anyone knew anything about the upcoming production car's specs.
Regardless of the difference between what was shown on the MKS and what is being offered on the Lexus, Lexus is here now advertising "adaptive headlights." Given Ford's marketing to date, I doubt they'll do a very good job of saying they showed it off first, and what the differences are. Unfortunatly, the public and probably the press will see Lexus as the technology leader.
Lincoln offered both HIDs AND Adaptive Headlights on the 1995 Mark VIII. So I don't see how Lexus or anyone else can claim first to market. Fact is many mfrs are offering it now including the 2007 MKX that goes on sale in a few months.
"We at Lincoln introduced adapative headlights in 1995.
Of course, we stopped making that car many years ago.
Wanna buy this fancy Mazda? It's made in Mexico and includes the finest D-L shifter and hood prop rod we could engineer.
Or maybe 5000 pounds of Volvo with a Yamaha engine will be more to your liking. We also have the Navigator which only gives up 100 horse power to the Escalade but also has worse fuel economy. If you want a truck we have the Mark LT which is a Ford F-150 with more chrome cleverly disguised and re-engineered to be an F-150 with more chrome"
I think they would be wise to avoid the engineering peeing contest.
The MKS will sell and will have some good attributes, but it is limited to AWD and the extra weight that means in order to get around the FWD bias. And its styling is current near luxury cliche...not groundbreaking or innovative or polarizing. Like it or not (and many people don't), the Chrysler 300, even as common as they are now, still naturally draws the eye when it passes. Even Town Cars, as old and worn as the design has become, still draws attention from Joe non-enthusiast public that an Acura RL or Infiniti M cannot.
Lincoln isn't in Toyota's position where the reputation of the car and resale can allow for more bland styling. And even Toyota, within its ongoing plethora of new products and updates, is beginning to add some pizzaz to its sedans. Put a 2007 Camry next to a Fusion, and the Fusion still looks OK, but the Camry looks drawn with more finesse. Never thought that would happen!
You must be kidding! The 2007 Camry looks like a Mazda6. I'll give Toyota credit for putting the 3.5 and lots of goodies in the 07 Camry but not for style or exterior design. And it looks like Toyota is losing it's rock solid reputation.
Of course, we stopped making that car many years ago.
Wanna buy this fancy Mazda? It's made in Mexico and includes the finest D-L shifter and hood prop rod we could engineer."
Scooter, this time I have to agree with ya. As loyal as I have been to Lincoln in the past, for 15 years, in fact, This Zephyr has really pissed me off. And you just explained why very well.
I remember when the Mark VIII first came out. I was good friends with the LIncoln dealer by then, and he threw me the keys to one one day that hadn't even been prepped yet, and asked me to drive it and give him my opinion. Now, Larry had been known for driving Marks, always white, for years. And here was his new one.
I kicked that baby down from 4th gear going 40mph, and it downshifted directly to first, snapping my neck. For such a big sled, I was way impressed! I also loved the style of it. When the HIDs first came out, again he had me drive one. Of course, those had to be recalled, as they caught fire a time or two, but still, the Mark was awesome. I still maintain that 97 was the high water mark at Lincoln. The Town Car was awesome and drop dead reliable. The Continental had been mostly fixed and gave the gals the car they wanted. The Mark was there for the 'old sport'. Those were the days.
It is taking FoMoCo longer than most to discover that you can't return to success by eliminating and delaying new models. Going back a few years, they discontinued the T-bird in 1997, because sales had dropped--even though it was still making numbers that other companies might have seen as good for a 2 door coupe in that era of lower coupe sales. The problem, if there was one, was they were still selling the 1989 T-bird, and if any segment needs frequent updating to keep sales rolling, it is 2 door coupes. Then they dithered around until bringing out the ill-conceived 2002. It also made good sales for a $40,000 2 seater--but Ford was looking for better sales than that market could provide. Withe some styling changes, it could have been a Lincoln and might still be around.
And another thing (lobbing in the kitchen sink): Make a damn car off the Panther platform or import one from Australia. Keep all the planned models, but get at least one rear driver in the lineup. Give it some pizazz. Call it the MK Town Car if you want...everyone knows a Town Car is a Lincoln.
If ford doesn't cost cut the interior and keeps & adds to the gadgets of this vehicle, this could be very well the best Lincoln ever.
Rocky
As for grills and such looking alike, it happens, and doesn't bother me much. Acura and Mazda had almost the same grill just a few years back on the TL and the Millenia. And variations on that grin-shaped grill have been used by others too. It is the overall shape and presence of the car that makes it (or doesn't) for me--not the front end. Witness the Explorer. They completely changed the front clip and altered the grill completely, but it still looks like the same old design to me (and apparently to a lot of the buyig public).
That'd be the MKTC. Easy.... :P
Yes I have and they were as ugly then as they are now. My reference is also to the ugly 4-door current convertible Chrysler 300. Dude it doesn't even look right to have a 4 door convertible.
Your lack of historical perspective is startling.
I agree my historical perspective when it comes to cars isn't great. The old cars made in the 30's 40's 50's 60's 70's were not much different technology wise than the
Model-T. Sure in the 50's the radio was put into mass production cars-Whoopie ! 60's all they did was make powerful engines for back then, that most couldn't out run the common Toyota Camry made today. My father and I got into it over this. I told him I can go get a Cadillac CTS-V and beat every factory production car made in the 1960's muscle car era.
My point isn't to totally trash the past cars, but just to point out more has be done technology wise in the last 16 years than from the period of 1900-1989.
The new Lincoln MKS, represents perfectly my point.
Rocky
I'm also happy with the MKS name
Rocky
Glad that you do though...Lincoln needs your business. As for it being the best American car ever, well, it is hampered by ho-hum styling, weight, AWD to avoid being FWD, one engine choice, and no visual ties to the rest of the Lincoln line-up. But I'd be thrilled to see it take off and sell like Christmas.
BTW, any 2007 car is light years ahead of a 1960s car technologically. Heck, a run of the mill current Chevy sedan is light years ahead of a 1963 Corvette Stingray or 1965 Mustang. I think any car has to be judged in the context of its time, and the impact it had there.
I cannot see the MKS stand out that much in a field of stellar sedan choices whether from the US, Germany, Scandinavia or Japan. But again, I'd love to buy you dinner as soon as I am shown to be wrong. Cuz I love Lincoln. Always have. But I don't see much there now that would draw me over the competition.
Rocky
Time will tell.
Rocky
Model-T."
Rocky, I love ya, but I can't let you get away with that. Because the same could be said about today's Impala - it's not much different than those cars of the 70's either. Other than an antique fuel injection system, the pushrods are still there. :P
"My father and I got into it over this. I told him I can go get a Cadillac CTS-V and beat every factory production car made in the 1960's muscle car era. I said I'd BET you everything I own and don't have to worry about losing it."
I'm on your father's side on this one. Have YOU ever ridden in a Pontiac Judge? A Challenger 440 six pack? Or a Galaxie 500 XL Interceptor? They were all scary fast.... and, now where near as stable as the CTS either, so the scary worked both ways.
I'm very glad the car speaks to the 20 and 30 somethings, but how many in that age bracket will be able to afford the car? Perhaps it'll translate into sales, and I really hope it does, by giving that age group something to aspire to and bring them into the showroom and into an MKZ, planning one day to get into the MKS. But for this buyer from a demographic who can afford one now, I'll have to like it better in person than I do based on the pictures.
However, I'll still strongly consider it if it's made here in the USA.
The instrument panel is very ordinary, in fact it's a typical dumb-down panel with idiot lights galore rather than guages. The center stack area looks nice, but it will probably change too. EXCEPT for the shifter - has anyone else counted the number of detents for the shifter? Guess what? Looks like another Ford vehicle with the "D-L" driver-no-control transmission gear shift. Who would buy a vehicle with so little driver control except a blue-hair? Why would a 'young' enthusuiast want such a car?
I do like the front styling, and the sides are OK. I've always wanted a car with a little Lincoln-star shaped "vent" that opens and closes on my front fenders (Not). The rear would be nice if it hadn't already been done before - several times. As it is, there are so many more possibilities that it is nothing short of disappointing what they are doing.
And if it's priced at $50K, you may be the only buyer for the thing. It should come in closer to $40K. That's a bit higher than the AWD S-80 it's based on.
And u can trash the early 60s Continental all u want. Not a single other auto enthusiast (I would venture to say) would agree with you. Those vehicles were ground-breaking at release. They remain perhaps the classiest hunks of metal ever to roll on 4 assembly-line-built wheels. The MKS in contrast is an Aurora/Acura clone built on the body of a Volvo. Not exactly ground-breaking.
0-60 for the Judge was 6.5 seconds. I can take a Toyota Camry and get those kind of numbers. To the best of my knowledge the fastest car back then from the factory
was a GT 500 Shelby and it ran 0-60 in 4.8-4.9 secs. I don't know if that counts as a production car or not. The only reason why y'all old tymers jock that era was because you guys jacked up the rear ends and put big tires on the back end. Hit the gas and smoke em' doesn't equal the #'s ya'll claim to get. :P I stand by my claim that today is much better than yesterday when it comes to technology and performance.
Rocky
Sure Ford, can still ruin this car but I'm being optomistic they won't.
Rocky
You may not like it. My mom doesn't care for it, however many of my friends young, middle, old, like the new modern styling. I agree they could ruin a nearly perfect interior. I personally like the suede, but wouldn't mind black leather dash coverings.
Rocky
The 60's Continentals are seen by most as understated but elegant, in both an eyecatching and tasteful way. Of course not everyone went for that look or goes for it now, but it certainly was a radical direction change for Lincoln and American sedans on the whole. The look wouldn't work for today without a lot of reinterpretation...perhaps sort of like how the 2009 Camaro relates to the 1969 without being retro (like the Challenger).
Although you like the MKS (a good thing), I think it is boring, like the styling of the Infiniti M is boring: pleasant enough, current, with even a few original flourishes, but nothing that will be seen around the world as a watershed model (either from a styling or engineering standpoint). BTW, I like the new S80 too.
If you define success as flash in the pan designs that are popular today and forgotten tomorrow, then yes they are successful. The 300 will sell good at first then fall off as people tire of the in-your-face styling and they'll have to start over with something totally new. Meanwhile, the 500 will soldier on with steady sales for years to come with just a few tweaks. When they freshen up the front of the 500 and add the 3.5L V6 I bet it easily outsells the 300.
Remember that there is an update scheduled soon for the 300 too. Chrysler, like Toyota, is not going to sit and let a successful design shrink on the vine for lack of updating. Ford has lost too much market share with their policy of "soldiering on" with the same design, tweaked or not. Doesn't matter if it is "in your face" or understated styling. In this marketplace, it needs to be changed on a regular cycle or people go elsewhere.
Rocky
Maybe you will like it better in person or perhaps the final production car will be more to your liking ? I just hope Lincoln doesn't ruin it for me. I'd buy it the way it is. I do beg for even more gadgets, because in my book the more the merrier.
Well on a better note I am looking forward to the Volvo S80, but feel this Lincoln, could be a better alternative though. The advantage for the S80, is I absolutely love the interior and think it's the best of any car under $150K. The Lexus LS runs a close second but I would never beable to afford one of those new. The MKS interior is something different and I like it alot also. It reminds me of a modern past, if that makes any since ?
Rocky
Most of us are hoping they'll abandon this silly scheme soon because it's confusing everyone. Even one of the engineers that worked on the MKZ and MKX got confused when I asked about the steering on the MKZ - he gave me the MKX answer then realized his mistake a few minutes later.
I like state of the art electronics too. Been buying PCs since 1988, so the computer age ain't exactly new to me. For Lincoln to offer a car without stability control--at the very least as an option--when Hyundai makes it standard equipment on lesser cars, is a grave omission. I had it on one of my vehicles almost 10 years ago, so I won't to go to fewer features now. And living in WI, I insist on ABS, traction control, auto brake force dist., and stability control on a new car. You can of course drive safely without any of these, but any little advantage when it is slippery--especially when the majority of drivers around you have no driving skills--is worth it to me.
Rocky
I've seen cars I didn't like in pictures, but when you see them in person I was like oh wow that looks much nicer in person, than in the pics.
Time will tell if Ford, keeps this thing a winner or ruins it. I'm hoping they won't ruin the whole car by letting the bean counters close to it. :sick: I'm optomistic enough that Ford won't let em' near it.
Rocky
The MKS will only sell if its priced within the competition. If its over 40K, they wont be selling many at all. Who really wants to drive a mediocre Lincoln anyways?
Rocky
As blah as I am about the MKS, I like its looks much more than that of the 300. I really hope the build and materials quality are better than the 300's.
I have two questions for ya, Rocky. Don't you think by the time you're old enough to die, we may have overcome that little problem too? Not saying anything, just asking your opinion, and I admire your optimism.
Second question is, and this one is the corker - if they make that MKS in Mexico, would you buy it, no matter how many gadgets it had? I mean even if it has bluetooth, hot and cooled seats, reverse camera, rain sensing wipers, parktronic, distronic cruise, and even what Lexus is introducing next year - auto-park. This gismo is supposed to park the car with sonar, once you get it close to a spot. The driver controls the speed, the car does the steering. Can't wait to see how that works.
Would you?