There is also the passenger floor. I put stuff there and in the seat all the time now.
The fortwo is a car for people who have a small personal footprint. If you haul around other people, big items, or a lot of smaller items on a regular basis, you should get an xB.
when we do our grocery shopping, once a week, what we get is enough to spread out on the floor of a 2006 Xterra, with the back seat up, and without having to stack anything. There's three of us...two roommates and me. I'm sure that everything we get would fit in the back of that Smart, albeit with some stacking. Now on a week when we had to also bring home a 50 pound bag of kibble and a 35 pound tub of cat litter, it would get interesting and require some very creative packaging! And forget about any stops at the liquor store on the same trip.
Oh, and I guess we could forget about any bulk-item runs to Costco. I remember there were times when we'd have my roommate's Tracker stuffed to the gills, and and I'd have to carry some stuff on my lap.
Actually, that spot behind the rear seats looks pretty roomy to me. Of course, it's hard to tell just from a picture. Who knows how big that pink 6-pack of bottles really is? Kinda those old commercials where they'd put Dustin Hoffman in a VW to make it look big!
I agree 100%.
Here is a (doctored) photo of the 3rd row in the Kia Rondo:
Go see one in person. There is NOOOOO WAAAAAY is has that much room.
The 3rd row seat basically touches the back of the 2nd row. The 2nd row slides forward, but then it basically touches the back of the front seats.
They stretched that photo horizontally, big time.
That photo of the Smart's cago tray seems impressive, but I'll hold final judgement 'til I can see it in person. I bet those front seats are moved forward, at the very least.
Because I've seen one at ZAP. The back space is very small compared to an xA (which I own). An xA with back seats flipped down has enormous space. No comparison in carrying capacities.
So from personal experience, that's what I can convey to you in terms of information. I think the usable back space would be something like 40" wide and 8" deep (just an estimate). So some slim grocery bags, yes---golf clubs and big sacks, don't think so. I guess it depends on how much you want to mush things. :shades:
No worse than say a Miata without a trunk.
The Smart is a people carrier, strictly speaking. It's not meant for "stuff" of any serious nature...umbrella, briefcase, that sort of thing...
I'll admit that Kia Rondo looks pretty space-efficient for something that size. But it's only like 180 inches long. That interior spread makes the thing look like a Suburban or a '76 Town & Country inside!
The seat backs are taller than the seat bottoms, so the backs will touch the row ahead when folded down. I think it would be an interesting exercise to dig up a late-80s Colt Vista wagon and see how the 3rd row in that compares to the 3rd row in the Rondo, RAV4, etc.
I agree with you ... but there are things that you have to haul around in your vehicle - your gym bag, brief case, dry cleaning, tonight's dinner, etc. You can't do that with thw people in the Smart. And if you have to make special trips ... there goes the fuel savings.
And if you have to own an extra vehicle, the overhead (add'l registration, taxes, insurance) will again offset fuel savings.
My friends who own it are micro car enthusiasts who have 20+ other vehicles.
its obviously not for everyone. But I save $150/mo in gas by just moving from a 21 mpg premium gas vehicle to a 27 mpg regular gas one.
Now think about someone who has a big SUV at home because they gotta carry 3 kids around or something. I think it would be pretty easy to justify an extra 45 mpg car.
Lessee ... 15k miles commuting, $3/gallon, =$3,000/yr in the suv or $1,000/yr in the smart. $700 extra insurance, $45 extra registration, and i still save $1250. Of course, you are talking 10 years to pay for the car ... BUT BUT BUT, there are lots of other hidden places you are gaining money in the way of that SUV lasting years and years longer, etc. Justifying things is the easy part, its actually paying for them that's tough. ;b
by the way, this is from someone with 4 cars and browsing for a 5th.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
How many cars do you see on the road anyway that have more than one person in them? Maybe the thing to do with your Smart is to rip out the passenger seat and put a hauling cage in that area.
Having 3 cars does save you money in other ways. You don't need a rental car when family visits. You don't need a loaner if either of the other cars has a problem (or body damage).
I think the benefits have made it worth it.
Plus, if you're splitting the mileage, each car depreciates less, since it'll have fewer miles when you trade. Either that or it just lasts longer.
My Forester is 9 years old, the Miata is 14 years old. Not sure a Miata could have taken all those miles the whole time.
its obviously not for everyone. But I save $150/mo in gas by just moving from a 21 mpg premium gas vehicle to a 27 mpg regular gas one.
Whoa! What's that...based on 5,000 miles a month? C'mon, GB, let's use realistic numbers. It's more like $60 a month @ 1,500 a month driving (18K a year).
If we put a Smart car against a VW TDI diesel, the reasons to buy a Smart drop to about zero. The VW equals the fuel mileage, and with biodiesel can beat the Smart on emissions. It also tops it easily in performance. The only "downside" is price (about $10K more than the cheapest smart) for which you get a roomier, better-performing car for about $85 a month more over the course of ten years---which can be serviced anywhere by a nationwide organization.
So if we factor in possible lesser cost of diesel and possible higher MPG for the TDI, as well as use of biodiesel and that a GTI is only 165 inches long and 69 inches wide, this reduces the purchase of a Smart car to eccentricity and novelty levels only, with nothing else going for it whatsoever IMO.
That's the only appeal of a Smart---it's a toy IMO for people who buy toys. (Not that Ferrari hasn't succeeded doing that--LOL!)
Don't forget that the new model has a less deep dash by an inch or so, and the seats are side by side now(as opposed to offset a tiny bit). They also added a few inches in the rear by the look of it.
It's probably exactly the same as a typical Fit/Aveo/Yaris/etc in the back.(assuming those had the rear seat UP). Small but useable for the basics. Also, don't forget the door and floor cargo areas, which will fit the chains and battery cables and such, so the cargo area is kept pretty clean.
It'll be fine. A Honda Fit without the rear seat area, in effect. Oh - and the front seat folds forward like the Scion XBs does. So if it's just you, you can easily fit a larger object in.
I wouldn't own a Honda Fit without back seats nor would I have bought the xA that way...all I do is flick a finger and the rear seats go down and there's huge storage space.
...but if the Smart's front passenger seat folded down completely or you could take it out easily, that might be helpful.
TDI is vaporware for now, not even sold right now. VW keeps promising it but we have to wait and see. They say early next year...
Around here diesel costs more than regular gas, at least. Even now. It varies a lot by region.
Diesel prices seem less volatile, but prices go up when people are buying heating oil, while gas tends to go up in the summer driving season.
VW says 40/60 mpg for the Jetta TDI sedan and wagon so we'll see if they can pull it off.
Not that a $23k car will compete with a $13k car, but I guess a Jetta wagon would make a FAR better all-around car, if you were only going to buy one. In that manner, it's more economical than a ForTwo plus a 2nd vehicle, of course.
he only "downside" is price (about $10K more than the cheapest smart) for which you get a roomier, better-performing car for about $85 a month more over the course of ten years---which can be serviced anywhere by a nationwide organization.
Whoa serviced any where?
This is VW we are talking about and while they might have dealers nationwide that doesn't mean you can actually get your vehicle fixed there.
Yes, using the word service and VW on the same page should be against the law. Not that we should expect more from Smart. But if the Smart car has been a dud in the land of gas sipping small cars what will make it a success here?
There is no way that you are going to fit a set of golf clubs in a Smart car unless you are gong to put a rack on the top of the vehicle.
Well we will have to wait and see now will we.
BUT it is not at all practical.
That would depend on what you define as practical. For a single mother of two it would not be practical. For a single car family it would not be practical. For a two car family where one is used mainly (or always) just for commuting to and from work it is a very practical car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The Smart car has been marketed in Canada for several years. I have driven one in Victoria, BC and one in Chicago. It is not a hypothetical vehicle or a prototype.
And we have not even addressed its lack of reliability (see lemonaidcars.com).
The Smart car coming to our shores is not the same Smart car that has been in production. It has gone through some redesigns and stating how the new one is in size and cargo based on the old design is flawed.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The naturally aspirated engine's compression ratio is 11.5:1, while in the turbo engine it is 10:1. ***
So there is room to up the turbo's compression with some aftermarket mods... Looks nice. That should give you roughly 98-99HP just from boosting the turbo up to the standard 11.5:1 ratios - and be perfectly safe. A bit of exhaust work and a chip and 100HP should be doable without breaking any laws or destroying your engine.
Total sales in Canada haven't been very much since inception...was it 8,400 cars, something like that?
LOL! Yes, I should have stated "hypothetical service at any VW dealer"...my bad
VW TDI -- I was matching the Smart against a 1998 VW TDI specification--- a real car really sold in the real USA, so it's fair
THE THEORY OF USELESSNESS
I think that if a car is actually useless, like say a Ferrari or a Smart, it should offer some sort of very attractive alternative to usefulness. In the case of the Ferrari, it isn't merely "fun"--it is a kind of mind-boggling experience. In the case of Smart, you get "cute" and some sort of celebrity at the gas pump and maybe sorta kinda fun.
So useless cars aren't to be avoided per se, but they had better pay off in some other area.
I didn't include the MINI in the "useless car" category because I actually measured it off with the seats down and you can stuff a fair amount in there.
A Miata is "useless" but way fun and you can spec-race it as well.
Well okay that's fair enough----then let's make usefulness a relative term...as in very useful and hardly useful, and let's define "useful" as having some pragmatic, concrete, actual ability to perform a useful significant task of some kind, such as carrying people, cargo, delivering lumber. While a soccer mom would find a minivan "more useful" she could not call a MINI useless because 90% of the time it can do whatever her minivan does. So it's 10% useless to her, right?
A SMART would be maybe 90% useless to her and a Vespa scooter probably 100% useless to her (or maybe not--she could ESCAPE on it--LOL!)
Except that the turbo is only 10:1 for a reason. The effective compression at the stock 7.35 psi of boost is about 15:1. There is room for more boost (Brabus hit the numbers you're suggesting), but it has to be carefully managed and compensated for.
"Edmunds.com auto analyst Michelle Krebs noted that DaimlerChrysler was going to put Smart cars on sale earlier in the decade, but that effort stalled due to financial problems DaimlerChrysler had at the Smart division. Now, "with gas prices looking at $4 a gallon this summer, this is perfect timing," Ms. Krebs says."
"United Auto Group Inc., the nation's second largest auto retailer, says that in just over five weeks it has received $99 deposits from 12,600 people."
"most popular Smart model (in the $99 reservation program) has proven to be the Passion edition." That's the cabriolet model.
Oh I find it so hard to resist a shopping cart full of aluminum cans comment.
I think the fact I talked about NOT being able to move my tool box, it was a big one too about 5 feet by 5 feet, and my furniture precludes you from making the above comment.
To be exact I had four suitcases, my computer, my computer desk(disassembled), odds and ends from my town house etc.
I'm very impressed with the MINI. At first I wondered how I could justify spending TWICE what I paid for the xA---could it be twice as good.
Well maybe not twice but it has more room for the driver, it carries a lot of stuff, handles great---simply great handling---and it is extremely well-built. Pricey yes, but for a single or a childless couple, a great little car. And you can stuff a friend or two in the back for short trips.
It's a bit over-styled, but it is miles ahead of an xA, Fit, HHR or Smart in appeal, to me, and apparently most people, as they are flying out the door at dealers (check the Edmunds "incentives and rebates" category, and under MINI there is NONE...nada...nothing...).
Gas mileage is way up for 2007 and reliability issues seem mostly resolved.
I haven't driven the new new MINI yet I lost my in at the local MINI dealership but everyone tells me it is great. One of my clients used to be the salesmanager at the local MINI dealership but a few months ago managment decided to take a new direction. They let go 90% of the sales staff at all three stores and he was one of the casualties. :mad:
I might buy a Clubman when they come out and I will buy my MINI back from the family member I sold it to in a year or so. If I could find a 2005/2006 MY MINI with just the sport package and Limited Slip that would be worth buying as a track toy.
Then I think how stupid it is to buy a MINI used and I come to my senses.
The Clubman could turn out to be "the perfect subcompact". Automakers have been honing and homing in on the perfect small car, and they are getting closer all the time.
In the 60s and 70s, we had cars that were HUGE and yet had it all wrong. There was too much room where you didn't need it, and not enough where you did need it, and way too much overhang and unsprung weight.
So cars have "rationalized" a lot already, and I think the smaller car will rationalize further into these fabulous new designs we are seeing, just like the big cars have rationalized into smart tight mid-size sedans that do everything well. When's the last time you saw even a larg-ish sedan wallowing in the curves or over-steering into a guardrail on a lazy turn or grounding out the rear bumper in driveways?
Now the subcompacts are breaking the 8 second barrier in 0-60, pulling over 30 mpg and are able to carry an amazing amount of cargo for their size (due to clever interior design and seat configurations).
While a Clubman will never tow your boat, cars like this will (or perhaps a tad larger version) will one day be able to do 90% of what every family needs.
From the looks of it the Clubman should seat two adults and two adolocents comfortable for medium to long trips.
If someone else were to take the same basic shape/idea of the clubman then...
1. Decontent/destyle it a little bit to drop the price 2. Make it just a tiny bit longer and wider 3. Little more emphasis on comfort over 9/10ths driving prowes
It might even be a Datsun 510 station wagon from 1968--LOL!
Well you know, when you're at the $20K mark or below, you have to hit some serious compromises that a $60,000 car doesn't have to make--or a pickup truck for that matter.
I think the de-contenting is a good idea. The MINI is way too chic and fussy inside. It's like someone who made a birthday cake and kept adding decorations.
Don't know about longer and wider---I haven't seen a Clubman in "person" yet.
As for comfort, I think most people get used to how it rides. They just need to transition out of spongy cars with lots of sound-deadening material. I used to think the xA was harsh, but now it feels fine and other subcompacts feel too soft for me, like the HHR...how did GM make such a small car feel so big? (not in a good way I mean).
When's the last time you saw even a larg-ish sedan wallowing in the curves or over-steering into a guardrail on a lazy turn or grounding out the rear bumper in driveways?
Well, judging from all the marks and battle damage I see on various guardrails, jersey barriers, etc, SOMEBODY's still running into them on a regular basis!
As for scraping your rear bumper in a driveway, that concern has faded away, but has more than been replaced by worrying about scraping something up front! With all that FWD overhang and the lower bottoms of today's cars, it's very easy to scrape something up front. Usually it's that plastic valance panel that's underneath up front.
FWIW, I've don't think I've ever grounded out a rear bumper on any old car I've ever owned, and I've had some pretty long ones.
Well you can get rid of bad design but you can't get rid of bad drivers. Maybe stability control will help the really incompetent drivers from bouncing off guardrails.
There's really no "overhang" on modern FWD, it's the front air dams that are scraping....this design comes from eliminating big grillwork, and forcing engine cooling to come up from the bottom of the car.
Cars of the 60s--80s had absurd amounts of overhang--they were badly conceived in terms of vehicle dynamics and designers were total slaves to styling over engineering. You only have to watch movie chase scenes from those times to realize what foul-handling beasts used to come out of Detroit in the "old days".
Can you imagine "Bullitt" done with Mercedes or BMWs? It would be fun to watch them smash up but the tires wouldn't squeal and they wouldn't fishtail.
There's really no "overhang" on modern FWD, it's the front air dams that are scraping....this design comes from eliminating big grillwork, and forcing engine cooling to come up from the bottom of the car.
Yeah, like I said, it's mainly that valance panel underneath scraping. Still, I'm gonna have to disagree with you on there being no overhang on FWD cars. Within a quick glance I see a 2003 Corolla, a 2000 Intrepid, a first-gen Saturn S-series, an '89 Coupe DeVille, and a ~98-02 Corolla. All of 'em have more overhang, and more low-hanging stuff ahead of the front axle than any RWD car in my fleet.
Many FWD cars have most of the engine mounted ahead of the front axle!
Comments
Agree with you completely.
The only place to store items is the passenger seat. I am not real keen on carrying a bowling ball, alcohol, and other large items in that location.
The fortwo is a car for people who have a small personal footprint. If you haul around other people, big items, or a lot of smaller items on a regular basis, you should get an xB.
Oh, and I guess we could forget about any bulk-item runs to Costco. I remember there were times when we'd have my roommate's Tracker stuffed to the gills, and and I'd have to carry some stuff on my lap.
I agree 100%.
Here is a (doctored) photo of the 3rd row in the Kia Rondo:
Go see one in person. There is NOOOOO WAAAAAY is has that much room.
The 3rd row seat basically touches the back of the 2nd row. The 2nd row slides forward, but then it basically touches the back of the front seats.
They stretched that photo horizontally, big time.
That photo of the Smart's cago tray seems impressive, but I'll hold final judgement 'til I can see it in person. I bet those front seats are moved forward, at the very least.
Check out how the 3rd row seat touches the 2nd row. In the pic above you see about a foot of space between them rows - which simply does not exist!
Also check how the folded 2nd row touches the front row seats. So it could not be moved that far forward.
The pic above is definitely chopped.
So from personal experience, that's what I can convey to you in terms of information. I think the usable back space would be something like 40" wide and 8" deep (just an estimate). So some slim grocery bags, yes---golf clubs and big sacks, don't think so. I guess it depends on how much you want to mush things. :shades:
No worse than say a Miata without a trunk.
The Smart is a people carrier, strictly speaking. It's not meant for "stuff" of any serious nature...umbrella, briefcase, that sort of thing...
http://portland.craigslist.org/clk/car/327326076.html
Too bad the pictures suck. :mad:
it would be a huge mistake, IMHO, to have one as your only car if you need to carry stuff ... ever.
the biggest market for this car is as an extra commuting car. Leave the SUV at home and use that when you need to cart things.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I agree with you ... but there are things that you have to haul around in your vehicle - your gym bag, brief case, dry cleaning, tonight's dinner, etc. You can't do that with thw people in the Smart. And if you have to make special trips ... there goes the fuel savings.
And if you have to own an extra vehicle, the overhead (add'l registration, taxes, insurance) will again offset fuel savings.
My friends who own it are micro car enthusiasts who have 20+ other vehicles.
Now think about someone who has a big SUV at home because they gotta carry 3 kids around or something. I think it would be pretty easy to justify an extra 45 mpg car.
Lessee ... 15k miles commuting, $3/gallon, =$3,000/yr in the suv or $1,000/yr in the smart. $700 extra insurance, $45 extra registration, and i still save $1250. Of course, you are talking 10 years to pay for the car ... BUT BUT BUT, there are lots of other hidden places you are gaining money in the way of that SUV lasting years and years longer, etc. Justifying things is the easy part, its actually paying for them that's tough. ;b
by the way, this is from someone with 4 cars and browsing for a 5th.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
How many cars do you see on the road anyway that have more than one person in them? Maybe the thing to do with your Smart is to rip out the passenger seat and put a hauling cage in that area.
My wife drives a convertible... If she needs to pick up our son and his friends after school, she takes my car, and I take hers..
If that were the only car she had access to, she wouldn't own it..
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I think the benefits have made it worth it.
Plus, if you're splitting the mileage, each car depreciates less, since it'll have fewer miles when you trade. Either that or it just lasts longer.
My Forester is 9 years old, the Miata is 14 years old. Not sure a Miata could have taken all those miles the whole time.
Whoa! What's that...based on 5,000 miles a month? C'mon, GB, let's use realistic numbers. It's more like $60 a month @ 1,500 a month driving (18K a year).
If we put a Smart car against a VW TDI diesel, the reasons to buy a Smart drop to about zero. The VW equals the fuel mileage, and with biodiesel can beat the Smart on emissions. It also tops it easily in performance. The only "downside" is price (about $10K more than the cheapest smart) for which you get a roomier, better-performing car for about $85 a month more over the course of ten years---which can be serviced anywhere by a nationwide organization.
So if we factor in possible lesser cost of diesel and possible higher MPG for the TDI, as well as use of biodiesel and that a GTI is only 165 inches long and 69 inches wide, this reduces the purchase of a Smart car to eccentricity and novelty levels only, with nothing else going for it whatsoever IMO.
That's the only appeal of a Smart---it's a toy IMO for people who buy toys. (Not that Ferrari hasn't succeeded doing that--LOL!)
Mrshiftright
Visiting Host
VW Golf TDI= 100hp, 2972 lbs :sick:
http://www.smartcar101.com/specs.htm
And this is an OLD VW TDI:
http://www.stealthtdi.com/Jetta-Intro.html
Okay, okay...I really WANT to see a reason to buy a Smart Car, but aside from "cute" I can't find one....
If "cute" is enough for someone, god bless 'em and enjoy yourself!
MrShiftright
Visiting Host
It's probably exactly the same as a typical Fit/Aveo/Yaris/etc in the back.(assuming those had the rear seat UP). Small but useable for the basics. Also, don't forget the door and floor cargo areas, which will fit the chains and battery cables and such, so the cargo area is kept pretty clean.
It'll be fine. A Honda Fit without the rear seat area, in effect. Oh - and the front seat folds forward like the Scion XBs does. So if it's just you, you can easily fit a larger object in.
...but if the Smart's front passenger seat folded down completely or you could take it out easily, that might be helpful.
Around here diesel costs more than regular gas, at least. Even now. It varies a lot by region.
Diesel prices seem less volatile, but prices go up when people are buying heating oil, while gas tends to go up in the summer driving season.
VW says 40/60 mpg for the Jetta TDI sedan and wagon so we'll see if they can pull it off.
Not that a $23k car will compete with a $13k car, but I guess a Jetta wagon would make a FAR better all-around car, if you were only going to buy one. In that manner, it's more economical than a ForTwo plus a 2nd vehicle, of course.
Whoa serviced any where?
This is VW we are talking about and while they might have dealers nationwide that doesn't mean you can actually get your vehicle fixed there.
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Smart ForTwo 12-15 seconds (I found one place that says it might be 8 something, but I can't find anything that confirms faster than 12.
VW TDI 10.3 sec
I think the seasonal/regional thing is right, gas was 3.29 and diesel was 2.89 around here this week.
Well we will have to wait and see now will we.
BUT it is not at all practical.
That would depend on what you define as practical. For a single mother of two it would not be practical. For a single car family it would not be practical. For a two car family where one is used mainly (or always) just for commuting to and from work it is a very practical car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
IIRC that is the case.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The Smart car has been marketed in Canada for several years. I have driven one in Victoria, BC and one in Chicago. It is not a hypothetical vehicle or a prototype.
And we have not even addressed its lack of reliability (see lemonaidcars.com).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
***
So there is room to up the turbo's compression with some aftermarket mods... Looks nice. That should give you roughly 98-99HP just from boosting the turbo up to the standard 11.5:1 ratios - and be perfectly safe. A bit of exhaust work and a chip and 100HP should be doable without breaking any laws or destroying your engine.
Don't forget we have another half dozen or more Smart discussions over in the Smart group.
And is smartusa calling it the smart to avoid confusion with the all caps HUMMER?
LOL! Yes, I should have stated "hypothetical service at any VW dealer"...my bad
VW TDI -- I was matching the Smart against a 1998 VW TDI specification--- a real car really sold in the real USA, so it's fair
THE THEORY OF USELESSNESS
I think that if a car is actually useless, like say a Ferrari or a Smart, it should offer some sort of very attractive alternative to usefulness. In the case of the Ferrari, it isn't merely "fun"--it is a kind of mind-boggling experience. In the case of Smart, you get "cute" and some sort of celebrity at the gas pump and maybe sorta kinda fun.
So useless cars aren't to be avoided per se, but they had better pay off in some other area.
I didn't include the MINI in the "useless car" category because I actually measured it off with the seats down and you can stuff a fair amount in there.
A Miata is "useless" but way fun and you can spec-race it as well.
MrShiftright
Visiting Host
Oh in ONE trip.
Oh I find it so hard to resist a shopping cart full of aluminum cans comment.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I didn't include the MINI in the "useless car" category
I would suspect soccer moms would label a Mini as useless.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
A SMART would be maybe 90% useless to her and a Vespa scooter probably 100% useless to her (or maybe not--she could ESCAPE on it--LOL!)
MrShiftright
Visiting Host
"United Auto Group Inc., the nation's second largest auto retailer, says that in just over five weeks it has received $99 deposits from 12,600 people."
"most popular Smart model (in the $99 reservation program) has proven to be the Passion edition." That's the cabriolet model.
WSJ (paid link)
I think the fact I talked about NOT being able to move my tool box, it was a big one too about 5 feet by 5 feet, and my furniture precludes you from making the above comment.
To be exact I had four suitcases, my computer, my computer desk(disassembled), odds and ends from my town house etc.
Well maybe not twice but it has more room for the driver, it carries a lot of stuff, handles great---simply great handling---and it is extremely well-built. Pricey yes, but for a single or a childless couple, a great little car. And you can stuff a friend or two in the back for short trips.
It's a bit over-styled, but it is miles ahead of an xA, Fit, HHR or Smart in appeal, to me, and apparently most people, as they are flying out the door at dealers (check the Edmunds "incentives and rebates" category, and under MINI there is NONE...nada...nothing...).
Gas mileage is way up for 2007 and reliability issues seem mostly resolved.
And resale value is second to none.
Visiting Host
I might buy a Clubman when they come out and I will buy my MINI back from the family member I sold it to in a year or so. If I could find a 2005/2006 MY MINI with just the sport package and Limited Slip that would be worth buying as a track toy.
Then I think how stupid it is to buy a MINI used and I come to my senses.
Anyway a Mini would be useless for me as it is to small for me to fit in and to big to be used as a paperweight.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
In the 60s and 70s, we had cars that were HUGE and yet had it all wrong. There was too much room where you didn't need it, and not enough where you did need it, and way too much overhang and unsprung weight.
So cars have "rationalized" a lot already, and I think the smaller car will rationalize further into these fabulous new designs we are seeing, just like the big cars have rationalized into smart tight mid-size sedans that do everything well. When's the last time you saw even a larg-ish sedan wallowing in the curves or over-steering into a guardrail on a lazy turn or grounding out the rear bumper in driveways?
Now the subcompacts are breaking the 8 second barrier in 0-60, pulling over 30 mpg and are able to carry an amazing amount of cargo for their size (due to clever interior design and seat configurations).
While a Clubman will never tow your boat, cars like this will (or perhaps a tad larger version) will one day be able to do 90% of what every family needs.
From the looks of it the Clubman should seat two adults and two adolocents comfortable for medium to long trips.
If someone else were to take the same basic shape/idea of the clubman then...
1. Decontent/destyle it a little bit to drop the price
2. Make it just a tiny bit longer and wider
3. Little more emphasis on comfort over 9/10ths driving prowes
that would be about the perfect sub compact.
Well you know, when you're at the $20K mark or below, you have to hit some serious compromises that a $60,000 car doesn't have to make--or a pickup truck for that matter.
I think the de-contenting is a good idea. The MINI is way too chic and fussy inside. It's like someone who made a birthday cake and kept adding decorations.
Don't know about longer and wider---I haven't seen a Clubman in "person" yet.
As for comfort, I think most people get used to how it rides. They just need to transition out of spongy cars with lots of sound-deadening material. I used to think the xA was harsh, but now it feels fine and other subcompacts feel too soft for me, like the HHR...how did GM make such a small car feel so big? (not in a good way I mean).
Well, judging from all the marks and battle damage I see on various guardrails, jersey barriers, etc, SOMEBODY's still running into them on a regular basis!
As for scraping your rear bumper in a driveway, that concern has faded away, but has more than been replaced by worrying about scraping something up front! With all that FWD overhang and the lower bottoms of today's cars, it's very easy to scrape something up front. Usually it's that plastic valance panel that's underneath up front.
FWIW, I've don't think I've ever grounded out a rear bumper on any old car I've ever owned, and I've had some pretty long ones.
There's really no "overhang" on modern FWD, it's the front air dams that are scraping....this design comes from eliminating big grillwork, and forcing engine cooling to come up from the bottom of the car.
Cars of the 60s--80s had absurd amounts of overhang--they were badly conceived in terms of vehicle dynamics and designers were total slaves to styling over engineering. You only have to watch movie chase scenes from those times to realize what foul-handling beasts used to come out of Detroit in the "old days".
Can you imagine "Bullitt" done with Mercedes or BMWs? It would be fun to watch them smash up but the tires wouldn't squeal and they wouldn't fishtail.
Yeah, like I said, it's mainly that valance panel underneath scraping. Still, I'm gonna have to disagree with you on there being no overhang on FWD cars. Within a quick glance I see a 2003 Corolla, a 2000 Intrepid, a first-gen Saturn S-series, an '89 Coupe DeVille, and a ~98-02 Corolla. All of 'em have more overhang, and more low-hanging stuff ahead of the front axle than any RWD car in my fleet.
Many FWD cars have most of the engine mounted ahead of the front axle!