What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

boaz47

"If you want a big back seat, look at an xB, they are HUGE. Flat floor so even 3 adults can sit across comfortably. "

That is easy for you to say. Looking at the xB makes people want to scratch their eyes out. If I want a big back seat I also want a car not designed by etch-a-sketch. I don't know how much longer we will have to live with the box but I for one will not morn its passing. Now if they would just outlaw the Element when children are present the would would be a prettier place.

(the opinions expressed in this rant are mine and mine alone. )

snakeweasel

the opinions expressed in this rant are mine and mine alone.

Don't fret about it, others have the same opinions. I know they have the right to make ugly cars, but with those they are abusing the privilege.

andre1969

if I mentioned this earlier or not, but I sat in one of the new Hyundai Accents at the DC auto show. I was very impressed at the interior room up front. You're not going to get 3 people across, obviously, but to me it feels like they took a big 70's car, and whittled off all the un-necessary bulk while maintaining the seating position for the driver and front passenger. So there was plenty of stretch-out room for the legs (a factor that isn't always adequately represented in published legroom), and the armrest on the door panel was a decent distance away...not crammed right up against my shoulder.

Now this car was a 2-door coupe and not a hatchback, which is going to limit some versatility if you need to haul stuff. And just sitting in the car, I have no idea how it's going to ride or handle. But just in seating position, I'd say this is one of the first subcompacts that I would actually consider a viable alternative to a big car. Having said that, that doesn't mean I'm about to back up that statement by buying one! :P

As for the Mini, I didn't sit in the new one, but I remember there was something about the previous model that didn't suit me. I think legroom was actually okay for me, but shoulder/elbow room might've been a little tight. And it was low to the floor.

bumpy

I sat in one of the new Hyundai Accents at the DC auto show...Now this car was a 2-door coupe and not a hatchback

Um, the Accent is either a 4-door sedan or a 3-door hatch. No notchback coupe to be found. The Kia Rio is a 4-door sedan or 5-door hatch, so it wasn't that.

ateixeira

I know it's a love/hate thing, but the xB outsells the xA by two to one, and it's the more expensive one! Supply has been short throughout it's entire lifespan (under 60 days, the industry ideal).

Toyota just showed the new xB at Chicago. A bit bigger, and a much better engine.

I bet it continues to be a success for them.

-juice

andre1969

Um, the Accent is either a 4-door sedan or a 3-door hatch. No notchback coupe to be found. The Kia Rio is a 4-door sedan or 5-door hatch, so it wasn't that.

Damn, my memory must really be playing tricks on me! It must've just been the 3-door hatch, but I didn't pay that much attention to the rear of it. I just remember thinking that for a solo or two person commuter, it would be a great car, but that it didn't seem as well suited as a boxier hatchback to hauling bulky items.

boaz47

I know, and I was amazed even though the xA is no looker itself it didn't bring bile to my throat. The xB is one of those cars I simply can't tell anyone, nice car when they drive up in it even out of politeness. I thought that the success of the tC, outselling it even after giving the xB a almost two year head start would kill the thing. But alas no, it proves that you don't have to go to art school to design a Scion. All you need is a T-Square. :P

andre1969

the xB doesn't really bother me that much. It's kind of a homely little thing, but it's not so utterly disgusting that it makes me want to gouge my eyes out or anything. To me, it just looks like a 2/3 scale Chevy Astro. Only not as aerodynamic.

ateixeira

Well, the tC has the 2.4l engine, and is far more mainstream.

Let's see how the xB sells with the same 2.4l engine. I bet it's close.

-juice

lilengineerboy

What is the opinion of the Honda Element?

Mr_Shiftright

I think a Scion xA looks like a Lamborghini next to an Element if that's what you mean.

It's like the xB---popular because of its price and its utility--which it has achieved at the cost of styling.

andre1969

with the Element was those plastic body panels that seemed scattered randomly across the vehicle, giving it an unfinished look. The versions that have everything done body-color look a lot better IMO.

I haven't seen any pics of the new xB yet, but if forced to choose between the outgoing xB and the Element, I don't know which one I'd choose. I think the Element has a more substantial feel to it, which it should considering it's based on a CR-V and not a platform originally intended to be a subcompact. It's been awhile since I've sat in an Element, but IIRC, the driving position suited me better. But on the flip side, the xB is cheaper, more economical, and has "normal" back doors.

plekto

The Xb also has one glaring fault with it. The rear seats... there's no cupholders, no storage, no anything. It might as well be a jump-seat in an extended cap pickup.

The car really is stripped. And none of the accessories that you can get for it fix one thing in the apalling interior. Outside it looks nice, but inside it's like you stepped back in time to a mid 90's Tercel.

ateixeira

There's so much room, though, and you can always customize it. Costco had a 10" DVD player for under $600 installed. That'll keep the kids quiet.

boaz47

andre and plekto here. The xB represents generic vehicle to the extream. And it is ugly. The Element is ugly as well but it has a hook. Hose out interior, ideal for party animals and people that might haul something. I believe you can get it in AWD as well. There may be a point in the 2.4 in the xB might go a long way in making it an acceptable car but I still doubt if there are enough anti car people to make it a better choice for most people over a tC. It will still cut the air like 4 4x8 sheets of plywood nailed together.

If they do add the 2.4 it will address one of the things I said was wrong with the new, at the time, sub compacts, The tiny motor. So there my friend Nippon, Nanner nanner. :P

I agree the xB may be very practical but that is all it is. It lacks any style. It looks like the box a car comes in.

In our area there is a Scion club believe it or not. The xB contingent calls their part of the club the rolling toasters. Now I ask you if owners call it that what can we expect from non owners. The style was a bit clunky on the old astro-van it is still clunky and no amount of customizing will change the basic shape and design.

I guess you can tell which side I am on in the love hate part of this. I can not remember ever thinking there was a car I wouldn't consider even as a used vehicle to go to the garden supply and get fertilizer. I could see myself getting a used xA or maybe if I got a great deal on an element I could back up to it to get in. I now much to my horror I understand Nissan or someone is planning on bringing over something called the Cube or something like that? If they do I hope the do it in reverse of what scion did with the xB. Start on the east cost and let them suffer first.

explorerx4

it looks like the xA is getting replaced by the xD. they are more similar than different.

snakeweasel

As for the Mini, I didn't sit in the new one, but I remember there was something about the previous model that didn't suit me. I think legroom was actually okay for me, but shoulder/elbow room might've been a little tight. And it was low to the floor.

Last time I sat in a Mini the leg room was pretty good but there was nothing to the side. Mt elbow either had to be out the window or pressed tightly between the door and my side.

Mr_Shiftright

One problem was that the console dug into your right calf. This has been corrected.

crimsona

Dodge Hornet too, if I have the name right. Influx of the squares...

nippononly

"If they do add the 2.4 it will address one of the things I said was wrong with the new, at the time, sub compacts, The tiny motor. So there my friend Nippon, Nanner nanner."

The new xB lacks the "ugly chic" of the current model and will also guzzle gas. The cool factor for youth on a budget is greatly diminished. I predict sales will drop with the new model. Scion better have a fourth model waiting in the wings to pick up the slack.

Of course, the xD (xA replacement) looks more attractive (as a package, not particularly in the styling department) than it did before, so that might pick up some of the slack.

boaz47

With all kidding aside I believe I did mention the once it gets introduced it gets bigger or a bigger engine. It seems to happen with every introduction of the sub compact. Introduced as the new basic transportation vehicle. Next generation begins the race to have 5 or 10 more ponies than the compitition and sooner or later it gets a few extra inches of "room". If indeed they add the 2.4 step one has already happened.

lilengineerboy

A 90s Accord is about the same size as a new Civic and a new Accord is about the same size as a small house. A 90s Accord weighs 2700 lbs, the new Accord is about 20% heavier at 3100 lbs.
VW tried to do that with the Jetta, where they just made the new one much bigger thinking that people with an old Jetta would just buy a new one since it will match a perceived need. I don't think that is working out so well for them.

nippononly

OK, all you naysayers, what do you have to say now?

The Yaris is on pace to blow away all previous annual sales records for Tercel and Echo, with sales so far this year that seem to put it on pace to get to at least 80K or so in its second year.

http://pressroom.toyota.com/Releases/View?id=TYT2007040316856

Meanwhile, Aveo continues its magic, on pace to get darn close to 100K this year, while combined sales of Rio and Accent are on target to accomplish the same goal:

http://www.aicautosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsedan.asp

The Fit continues to be a wait-list-only car, mainly because of constrained supply, but still is doing a solid 30K per year.

Now Ford execs are saying they can't possibly afford to be without a "B-game" in 2010 and have definite plans to sell a Ford-badged subcompact by then, and Roger Penske thinks he can sell as many as 20K Smart ForTwos in the States next year. And VW Group is considering bringing out an entry-level Audi based on the Polo for U.S. consumption.

Yup, things are definitely heating up in the "sub" segment...

:-)

snakeweasel

Yup, things are definitely heating up in the "sub" segment...

Yes its called gas prices.

bobw3

I don't know if it's just gas prices, since you can get a lot of cars that will average in the mid-30s mpg, but the problem with the "compacts" is that they have less interior space than the subcompacts (eg the Versa vs Sentra, Fit vs Civic) and people are looking for a car for about $15K that can hold a family of 4 and all their stuff. I think people are back to realizing (like the Europeans) that the small 4dr hatch is a great configuration...and gets about 50% better MPG than small SUVs.

punkr77

I think a lot of the reason people are staying away from the Subcompacts is because of all those golliath pickups and SUV's out there. Anything smaller than a Civic starts really giving me the creeps, even though I prefer smaller cars. In an accident with a Suburban or dually, you're going to be in big trouble in a Yaris. Part of it is size disparity, part of it is the frame-on cunstruction used in trucks, and part of it is the jacked up nature of SUV's whose bumpers are often at shoulder height on small cars (well above the door beams). Add in the ubiquitous tint jobs and the inability to see around, through, or over SUV's when you're backing out of parking spaces or making a right on red.

Down here in Houston, it's likely even worse than in many areas of the country since there are more SUV's and trucks than in most places. Their drivers seem more aggressive and innatentive than in other places, too. Though they won't admit it, lot's of their drivers love to try to intimidate people out of their way by riding your rear or flipping on the blinker and edging over.

There are several small cars I'd love to own. But I just don't think I could live with them down here. Miata, Elise, Mini; all give me the heeby jeebee's.

boaz47

that we are looking at a totally political and legal situation sub compacts may get a leg up. With the supreme court forcing the EPA into the mix cars as we know it will change. The US is slipping into the same boat as Europe and parts of Asia. I am not sure how this will play out in our market. I don't know if we are headed into a nation of Junior Autopia like cars as they have in Asia or ar nation without SUVs like Europe. It does seem as if the states that have adopted the California standards will have to find a solution that doesn't include diesels but it does seem if our bigger choices will be limited. However the message that Lexus is sending with their 300 plus HP hybrid is a bit confusing.

Nippon, having seen the hand writing on the wall I did go down and look at the Aveo. It still seems a bit small to me shoulder to shoulder with a salesman and my wife in the car but I am not driving as much as I did last year. The Yaris still looks like all it needs is a generic label that says "car" on the side but toyota does seem to be looking for an image that makes all their cars look the same only in different sizes. The fit is still a chick car in my eyes. Looks like a mini-mini-van so it has to come a estrogen air freshener. Just how I see it but then I never cared for the mini van in the first place. A mini-mini van might be even worse.

Mr_Shiftright

I think our concerns about the safety of small cars are mostly psychological. It's tricky, though, because statistics are only that, and accidents are very real.

My prediction is that when as cars get smaller and lighter, fatalities will go down, not up. But this will take a long time to prove true.

ateixeira

No kidding, Premium was $3.159 this morning. :surprise:

Mr_Shiftright

$3.63 for premium in San Francisco...that's not usual, but still, that'll change the automotive landscape if it becomes the norm.

ateixeira

Well, the hostages were released in Iran, so they should ease up. But it's scary to see these prices this early, before the driving season even begins.

Mr_Shiftright

hostages? Oh you mean the British soldiers....yeah, they're free.

It amazing how unregulated the oil industry is---that prices can be maniupulated so easily with mere rumors.

Now if I were a builder of small cars....hmmmm........

Well let's take a worst case scenario for a minute here....let's say you are driving the 2007 equivalent of a "gas hog", which would be....what?....a car or truck getting say.....oh....16 mpg, an using premium fuel.

Now we'll compare that to a typical subcompact that can put up say...35 mpg....

And we'll say that gas goes up to $3.50 for premium and $3.20 for regular across the nation (it's already here in California, so that's not a wild speculation by any means)

If both drivers go 15,000 miles a year, then the subcompact owner/buyer has to justify spending $15,000 to save $1,889 a year in fuel vs. keeping his old rig.

Now if the old rig is paid for, then it's gonna take the subcompact owner a while to "pay for" his vehicle. Of course, he also has warranty, so you'd have to figure the repairs on the old car into the equation, to be fair about it. Let's say that's another $1,000 a year.

So theoretically the subcompact owner is "saving" about $2,800 a year. That's still over 5 years to catch up to the cost of the old 16 mpg gas hog.

Naturally we are only talking about the economic factor, not political or philosophical or environmental justifications.

snakeweasel

you have to remember that sooner or later that gas hog has to be replaced. So when time comes to replace it what will you get?

Every car will at some time need to be replaced, so while it doesn't make much sense to buy a new car just to get better gas mileage when the time comes to buy a new car many will think about $3+/gallon gas.

Mr_Shiftright

that's very true. I think when it comes time to replace the gas hog, certainly most people won't automatically rush toward a subcompact, but I bet most people will shop for an equivalent car with better fuel mileage that the one they got rid of. This will be a major shopping point for a higher percentage of buyers than say five years ago.

nippononly

that most of the subcompacts available have at least the option of a 3- or 5-door hatchback configuration, into which can be slung way more stuff than the sedan the next step up the size ladder. The hatchback is simply a much more versatile and useful body style than the sedan, of which the compact class is almost solely comprised.

So if I can get a compact car, or I can save $2500 and get a subcompact that can hold more stuff and gets the same (sometimes better) gas mileage, it surely makes me think....

...and apparently some 300K buyers last year agreed with me, so say the combined sales of Yaris, Fit, Rio, Accent, and Aveo (I didn't even include xA, Versa, and any others I don't know off the top of my head). The subcompact class is making a lot more sales than it used to. Now if they could just bring the gas mileage up on some of those models.

wale_bate1

"The hatchback is simply a much more versatile and useful body style than the sedan..."

Gospel. Absolute gospel truth...

ateixeira

In principal I agree that you don't spend $15,000 to save a couple hundred a month.

But you did overlook one thing - the trade-in value of that gas hog.

Let's say it's worth half the price of the new sub compact, then you're only borrowing $7500 and will break even in half the time. In 2-3 years you're even, and at the end you're left with a much newer car that ought to last longer.

As long as the small car meets your needs and you enjoy it, that makes fiscal sense to me.

I do not think constructions foremen should run out and buy a Prius, though.

Mr_Shiftright

That's true---AND...you can use the equity remaining in the gas hog to bring down your monthly payments on the new steed, thereby saving interest, etc.

Another interestingn part of the equation is that as gas prices go up, your equity in your gas hog probably goes down...so you suffer twice from high fuel costs....making it more tempting to bail out of the gas hog while there's still time. Most of you might not remember the gas "crisis" of 1973, but at that time, with lines of cars competing for 3-5 gallons of gas at every corner, people couldn't GIVE away their Cadillac at the time...they panicked and took tremendous losses....had they sat on their barges they could have sold them for more in a year or two.

ateixeira

Yeah, good time to buy a big SUV if you need one, buy and hold it, even.

oregonboy

I couldn't recommend buying SUVs as an investment strategy. While I do believe fuel prices will have their ups and downs, you can be fairly certain that the ups will be much greater than the downs.

james

paisan

I got a great deal on my Armada in spring 2005. Prices of gas was on the rise etc. It's done me well and I actually use it for towing (anywhere from 6000lbs to 9000lbs) and I got 1% financing for 60 months and about $3500 below invoice price on it.

-mike

jlawrence01

The way to play the game is to buy your large vehicles when the cost of gas is high. Buy the small vehicles when the price of gas takes a dip.

punkr77

I think our concerns about the safety of small cars are mostly psychological. It's tricky, though, because statistics are only that, and accidents are very real.

Small cars are much more safe than they were a decade ago, but still less so than a bigger vehicle (up to a point). The way the crash testing works, vehicles are rated in comparison to other similar vehicles. So a 5 star rated subcompact is going to be less safe in a crash than a 5 star rated full size sedan.

When you add in the body on frame construction of most pickups and many SUV's, you end up with accidents like this: link title

Cars are built with crumple zones meant to absorb impact. Large trucks generally are built to not "give".

Also, down here in Texas you have lots of people with the jacked up "monster trucks" running around. I don't even want to think of what would happen in an accident with one since their bumpers are at head level or more compared with most cars.

Mr_Shiftright

Well that might be true statistically but on an accident by accident basis, you can die just as easily in a big truck as in a Mini Cooper. I saw that video of the Smart Car hitting a wall at 70 mph and the passenger compartment was fine...whether a human body would be fine decelerating from 70 mph to zero in a nanosecond remains a mystery that even crash tests cannot accurately measure. There are some forces that are not related to the vehicles size in other words, and plenty of freak occurrences as well. I think the idea that a big vehicle is "safe" is a comfortable myth we like to tell ourselves. Yes, drivers of locomotives are safer than people on bicycles, but when it comes to comparing say a Versa with a small SUV, or a Honda Element with a pickup truck, who's to say?

paisan

Yup there are so many factors involved. Angle, speed, who is the hitte v. the hitter, etc. etc.

I've seen folks get hit in an SUV by someone in a much smaller car get more injuries due to the way the accident occured.

-mike

urnews

I think the idea that a big vehicle is "safe" is a comfortable myth we like to tell ourselves.
The laws of physics still apply. We traded a Miata MX-5 in on a Fusion SEL AWD and one of the reasons was a concern for crash safety. Boz

paisan

The laws of physics still apply however, they are more complex than "weight of object A > weight of object B therefore Object A will survive better"

-mike

ateixeira

That seems to be more an issue of bumper height incompatibility.

Looks like a full-sized Chevy truck's bumper rode up on a Focus's rear bumper.

Note the LCD screens on the Focus' headrests - I hope no kids were hurt.

imidazol97

>whether a human body would be fine decelerating from

Isn't the limit for the brain something like 10g or 12 gs?

punkr77

I agree that there's a boatload of factors in each individual accident, but generally I figure few would argue which vehicle they'd rather be in in a head on between a Suburban and a Versa/Mini/Smart. The SUV may be less safe overall when you consider rollovers, poor handling, poor braking. But that doesn't help the Subcompact driver when they get rearended/t-boned.

I'd never own an SUV. I prefer a car that has a good chance of braking/maneuvering it's way out of an accident. But full-size SUV's and Pickups do factor into the equation when I look at new cars. Especially since a lot of those jumbo SUV's are now 10+ years old (with 10+ year old brakes and suspension) and are depreciating to the point that more young drivers are buying them.